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leakey
United States21 Posts
On September 25 2013 03:39 Thieving Magpie wrote: But! Uh... Well... Uh... Damn.... Accurate beyond reason  I'm just imagining what it would be like trying to get them to play Broodwar.... Broodwar had better chat and more people playing UMS so if you sucked you could just troll chat or play Big Game Hunters or No Rush 30 mins  | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On September 25 2013 07:16 Erik.TheRed wrote: IMO the current/next generation of gamers is getting so coddled that it's absurd. I guess that's what happens in a hyper-competitive market where the most accessible games get the most money (even if they have the least depth). I'm not even a BW player but I bet those guys are probably cringing when they see some of the comments & complaints from today's gamers. Earlier I was reading a post on the Hearthstone forums about someone not wanting to continue playing the game because they were too intimidated by the "daily quests" which required them play decks that they were not comfortable with in order to earn BONUS gold. It struck me that they seemed to be completely missing the point of the game-- why even bother spending time with this activity if you aren't going to open your mind a little bit or try and take on the slightest semblance of challenge? How is that experience any better than doing some other passive activity like watching a movie, listening to music, or reading a book? At least you might inadvertently discover something new or broaden your horizons with those things. Good luck getting any of that from farmville though. I'm usually wary of generational comparisons. But, one thing I have noticed, at least from the tone of many recent complaints on TL, is a demand that the game should be more fun and that game play is "stagnant" (this appears to be the next buzzword when it comes to design/balance complaint on TL). This is usually, but not always, accompanied by demands that Blizzard patch with greater regularity so as to "shake things up" and keep the game interesting (for players and spectators alike). It seems to me that this desire for a constant churn of strategy in SC2 is a result of wanting to do whatever you want in the game whenever you want and to have it work. This is nonsense, of course. The game has rules. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On September 25 2013 03:27 nottapro wrote: My experience with trying to introduce people to SC2. First reaction: It looks boring. Then months later, after constant harassing, you maybe if your lucky convince them to try it. Playing reaction: I have no idea what I am doing, this is way to complicated, I suck at this game, nothing is happening. I can't control my units. If your extremely lucky, they will have this horrible experience for the next 2 months and not quit, always hating the game, clueless why you keep telling it is entertaining but working their asses off to maybe one day have fun They finally get a handle on the basics: This is fun! Lets play SC2! This lasts for about 6-7 months until Final reaction: I got into a higher league, its way too hard now, I have to be in lower league to have fun so I am constantly losing games. I think Ill just quit instead. And its over. How to fix it. + Show Spoiler + Unranked is not good enough for casuals. We need a casual mode. Which does the following, 1) Buildings are automatically assigned to the users preselected hotkeys so they don't get overwhelmed. 2) You can have a build order guide you through your progression while playing online multiplayer in casual mode. Telling you what to make and when during early game. (Newbies have no idea what they should be doing, they need guidance or they just quit) 3) If click on enemy units, you can bring up information on what units you can make to counter it (ingame. Newbies are always confused about units functions and how to kill them). 4) if you click on an enemy building, you can bring up information what buildings it can make (ingame. Newbies scout but have no idea what they have learnt. They always ask you what a enemy building does). 5) Units can be split into predefined formations (ball, split or line) using a hotkey. (They can't split or control their units, they need an easier option) 6) A more functional Grid hotkey setup is the default hotkeys. (Newbies get so lost and confused using standard hotkeys) 6) Both players can agree to turn off fog of war. (Newbies have no idea where to go, how to scout, they need a simplier option) No, you fix that by having an actual good game where you can't lose to less than 5 units. This includes: banelings (bust) hellions (killing drones) banshees (less now than in WoL) DT widow mines any kind of cheese (cheese is just a shit gimmick that shouldn't be a part of any rts) coin flips, etc this is because blizzard likes big explosions and it's so EASY to LOSE so many units and/or workers in 3 seconds. the game is just overall badly designed, blizzard think they know their shit but they don't, so you have ridiculously broken things like force-fields (because they don't understand how important good positioning is) and warp gates (because fuck defender's advantage? fuck using queues to macro properly?), hell i could go on. the game is fun if you have no idea what you're doing, THAT's the big problem. is it possible to be good at this game? yes. you have to know all the random bullshit that can be thrown at you, how to react, and then you have to know what kind of bullshit you can throw at your opponent. even at the highest level, this applies (TLo vs lucifron wcs eu season 1?, maru vs innovation, etc). that's what's so fucking stupid. there's no S in this RTS. this is an RTB | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 25 2013 03:27 nottapro wrote: My experience with trying to introduce people to SC2. First reaction: It looks boring. Then months later, after constant harassing, you maybe if your lucky convince them to try it. Playing reaction: I have no idea what I am doing, this is way to complicated, I suck at this game, nothing is happening. I can't control my units. If your extremely lucky, they will have this horrible experience for the next 2 months and not quit, always hating the game, clueless why you keep telling it is entertaining but working their asses off to maybe one day have fun They finally get a handle on the basics: This is fun! Lets play SC2! This lasts for about 6-7 months until Final reaction: I got into a higher league, its way too hard now, I have to be in lower league to have fun so I am constantly losing games. I think Ill just quit instead. And its over. Yeah, exactly. I could name roughly 10 friends that played or were interested in SC2 but don't play it these days. The two most common reasons: -) "It's too hard to play at any reasonable level. I don't want to take part in this spam-click-fest." -) "It's too time consuming to get anywhere." Not once did I hear the comment: "Guys, my problem is that the game is badly designed for reason XYZ." | ||
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TimKim0713
Korea (South)221 Posts
is that - It is true it's the best race if played perfectly, *However, it's the hardest race to play since it requires Macro/Micro compared to zerg and toss's "a" move attack Terran in foregin/and below top korean terran players don't have much success because of its dificulty. Yet in lower leauges, below masters (about) complain terran sucks because it does. But truth is, it's because it's too hard for them to handle. Blizzard can't balance both LOWER leagues and Higher Leagues. One of them has to be imbalanced. Probably gave 99.999% percent of the people the "bad" part and .0000000001%, like innovation/bomber/taeja/polt etc... | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
-Oversaturation: I think this is how SC2 can build a niche for itself. Dota and LoL games are long and, frankly, I feel like there's only so much you can watch of it. TI is great but for the rest of the year it's kind of meh. You can watch daily and weekly shows and little SC2 tournaments all the time. -SC2 isn't as popular because of the Battle.net channels? Please. It's not like LoL and Dota2 have such great services either. -Design? Casualness? Those ships have sailed. Frankly, I despise custom games. Monobattles ruins SC2 groups because some people refuse to play anything but monobattles and it gets harder and harder to have serious scrims. | ||
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
On September 25 2013 14:31 Incognoto wrote: No, you fix that by having an actual good game where you can't lose to less than 5 units. This includes: banelings (bust) hellions (killing drones) banshees (less now than in WoL) DT widow mines any kind of cheese (cheese is just a shit gimmick that shouldn't be a part of any rts) coin flips, etc this is because blizzard likes big explosions and it's so EASY to LOSE so many units and/or workers in 3 seconds. the game is just overall badly designed, blizzard think they know their shit but they don't, so you have ridiculously broken things like force-fields (because they don't understand how important good positioning is) and warp gates (because fuck defender's advantage? fuck using queues to macro properly?), hell i could go on. the game is fun if you have no idea what you're doing, THAT's the big problem. is it possible to be good at this game? yes. you have to know all the random bullshit that can be thrown at you, how to react, and then you have to know what kind of bullshit you can throw at your opponent. even at the highest level, this applies (TLo vs lucifron wcs eu season 1?, maru vs innovation, etc). that's what's so fucking stupid. there's no S in this RTS. this is an RTB I love people arguing exact opposites for why this game is teh suxxorz. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On September 25 2013 14:39 Big J wrote: Yeah, exactly. I could name roughly 10 friends that played or were interested in SC2 but don't play it these days. The two most common reasons: -) "It's too hard to play at any reasonable level. I don't want to take part in this spam-click-fest." -) "It's too time consuming to get anywhere." Not once did I hear the comment: "Guys, my problem is that the game is badly designed for reason XYZ." You kinda dont make sense, because "bad design" leads to "its too complicated and time consuming". Design isnt "unit design" only ... and the problems of SC2 are the core design of "massive armies" in "automatically tight clumps" with "far too much economy and too easy control of units". All of them design flaws which lead to the reactions of your friends. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 25 2013 15:44 Rabiator wrote: You kinda dont make sense, because "bad design" leads to "its too complicated and time consuming". Design isnt "unit design" only ... and the problems of SC2 are the core design of "massive armies" in "automatically tight clumps" with "far too much economy and too easy control of units". All of them design flaws which lead to the reactions of your friends. Thing is: I only kinda dont make sense. Which means I actually make a lot of sense for a person that is not a notorious phrasemonger and gamebasher. | ||
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DinoToss
Poland507 Posts
On September 25 2013 03:39 Thieving Magpie wrote: But! Uh... Well... Uh... Damn.... Accurate beyond reason I'm just imagining what it would be like trying to get them to play Broodwar.... Have you ever played BGH, ffa etc? It was quite fun and trollish environment. Much more light hearted than matchmaking ladder with big egos starting from bronze. | ||
lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
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MikeMM
Russian Federation221 Posts
On September 25 2013 14:39 Big J wrote: Yeah, exactly. I could name roughly 10 friends that played or were interested in SC2 but don't play it these days. The two most common reasons: -) "It's too hard to play at any reasonable level. I don't want to take part in this spam-click-fest." -) "It's too time consuming to get anywhere." Not once did I hear the comment: "Guys, my problem is that the game is badly designed for reason XYZ." What do you want to say exactly? What the game is very well designed and you friends still quit playing it? | ||
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Rescawen
Finland1028 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On September 25 2013 16:37 MikeMM wrote: What do you want to say exactly? What the game is very well designed and you friends still quit playing it? Yup. D2 was amazing. I still quite playing it long, long ago. Same goes for those guys and SC2. They liked it. They played it. They moved on. | ||
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Cortza
South Africa328 Posts
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JP Dayne
538 Posts
WCS EU for europeans WCS KR for koreans maybe WCS LA and SEA and one WCS "global prelims" so players, from, say, south africa, can compete sorta like the fifa world cup qualifiers then for the world cup itself (the blizzcon event) give more spots for koreans because well they're obviously better and distribute the rest accordingly to what they feel right boom, problem solved I'd watch wcs na and wcs europe if I didn't already know a korean would win | ||
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
On September 25 2013 16:28 DinoToss wrote: There are plenty of casual arcade options available, and despite all the whining to the contrary, they're not hard to find. I've poured literally hundreds of hours into things like SquadTD, monobattles, etc. FFA is clearly included in matchmaking options.Have you ever played BGH, ffa etc? It was quite fun and trollish environment. Much more light hearted than matchmaking ladder with big egos starting from bronze. What people are really upset about is that it's not 2003 anymore. Nostalgia++ | ||
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Spaylz
Japan1743 Posts
With SC2, once the novelty is gone, one has to commit to certain things in order to enjoy the game. You have to grasp the level of strategy and understand all the concepts (all those involved in your current level of play anyway), and you have to know how to improve and stuff. Now that works. A lot of people actually enjoy that, it is challenging and a whole lot of gamers actually look for a challenge. Sadly, it also means that anyone who got into the game and simply isn't willing to put in the effort to overcome the challenge will quit and move on. I don't really think Blizzard can fix that at this point. The game is what it is, and even if you rework a lot of units the challenge is still going to be there, it will just be a little different. Blizzard is simply trying to cater to the wrong audience when trying to "casualize" the game. | ||
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SupplyBlockedTV
Belgium313 Posts
On September 26 2013 00:06 Spaylz wrote: I guess in order to keep playing the same game you have to thoroughly enjoy it all along. When one starts to play SC2, it's all kick-ass because they are discovering the game and everything. Then the novelty wears off two weeks to a month later, and you're confronted with the issue: do I still enjoy playing that? With SC2, once the novelty is gone, one has to commit to certain things in order to enjoy the game. You have to grasp the level of strategy and understand all the concepts (all those involved in your current level of play anyway), and you have to know how to improve and stuff. Now that works. A lot of people actually enjoy that, it is challenging and a whole lot of gamers actually look for a challenge. Sadly, it also means that anyone who got into the game and simply isn't willing to put in the effort to overcome the challenge will quit and move on. I don't really think Blizzard can fix that at this point. The game is what it is, and even if you rework a lot of units the challenge is still going to be there, it will just be a little different. Blizzard is simply trying to cater to the wrong audience when trying to "casualize" the game. I want to overcome the challenge, i got to high masters, beaten some pros...then quit. I enjoyed starcraft, but it becomes dull when you do the same builds every day just to stay ontop of your game. There is not enough depth in the game...not enough options.... You either play very standard and safe, or you start gambling with builds that might or might not get hard countered right away. Even if you scout well enough, if at the pro level you are doing a build aimed towards a very precise timing window, its hard to switch it up to the lategame because your opponent blindly hardcountered you, since it will have you set behind too much. Thats why i hate the rock paper scissors system in starcraft. I also hate standard games, it doesnt feel like chess to me, its just macro macro macro untill the lategame, then a-move with your lame ball of units and hope you win. | ||
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nottapro
202 Posts
On September 25 2013 14:39 Big J wrote: Yeah, exactly. I could name roughly 10 friends that played or were interested in SC2 but don't play it these days. The two most common reasons: -) "It's too hard to play at any reasonable level. I don't want to take part in this spam-click-fest." -) "It's too time consuming to get anywhere." Not once did I hear the comment: "Guys, my problem is that the game is badly designed for reason XYZ." Yes, totally in agreement. Blizzard can make the game as balanced as they like. I don't disagree with anyone who wants to see a more dynamic and better designed esports title. These ideas are not mutually exclusive. Its a totally separate argument. In my opinion, its important to stress that casual players need to have an option to reduce the stress and difficulty of the game mechanics, handicaps are a proven way to allow that. Imagine, you could invite your friend over who has never played SC2, allow him to play against you with handicaps while you play on normal settings. Within 2-3 games he can start to come up with strategies, have a chance at beating you, learn the basic meta without getting bogged down in a stress inducing 2 month learning curve. This is how you grow interest in the game, by allowing easy access to it. Maybe he will one day learn the real mechanics, maybe he won't, it doesn't matter, you can now play with your friend and he will invite his friends to play with him. It has no effect on the pro's. The alternative, we keep doing what we are doing, no handicaps, no casual mode. We already know the results, player base grows extremely slowly if at all, as new players will continue to fail to pass the games initial overbearing learning curve, and you will never retain casual interest, as people with stress in their lives will simply ditch SC2 for a more friendly fun game. Making the game casual friendly, doesn't have to sacrifice any of the games difficulty, it just needs to provide options for people who don't have the ability or interest to be hardcore. | ||
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