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@StarStruck
Blizzards devs HAVE tried to create a completely different game, because they did NOT start with the BW design and started with BW:HD ... they clearly started with a clean sheet of paper and simply copied some things onto it (Marine, Siege Tank, BC, Zealot, ...). The rest of it they designed from the ground up and this is clearly seen by the new "bonus damage system" (which actually is more of a damage restriction system). Sure, the old system in BW wasnt really clear, but only because that OLD game didnt have tooltips to explain it. As a casual I didnt really need tooltips, but making units practically useless against certain types of armor is something that only SC2 has.
Blizzards devs have said A LOT OF THINGS and I think they even said once that they will try to get rid of the deathball ... but then Browder also says stuff that the players WANT the deathball (which is a stupid thing to say). Surely the deathball is the most efficient way to maximize your army dps, but does that mean it has to be automatically achieved? No! It would make MUCH more sense to make players WORK for their deathball by adding a forced unit spreading that could be overcome through micro. They didnt understand that when they replied to the "dynamic unit movement" thread.
So I would advise you to stop using them as a reference point ... at all ... permanently. They are the wrong crew to drive this ship, but the passengers (community) are just too baffled by the scenery of big explosions and of course the captains propaganda of "everything is fine". People who think that nothing is wrong remind me of this:
+ Show Spoiler +
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On September 23 2013 14:13 Rabiator wrote:@StarStruck Blizzards devs HAVE tried to create a completely different game, because they did NOT start with the BW design and started with BW:HD ... they clearly started with a clean sheet of paper and simply copied some things onto it (Marine, Siege Tank, BC, Zealot, ...). The rest of it they designed from the ground up and this is clearly seen by the new "bonus damage system" (which actually is more of a damage restriction system). Sure, the old system in BW wasnt really clear, but only because that OLD game didnt have tooltips to explain it. As a casual I didnt really need tooltips, but making units practically useless against certain types of armor is something that only SC2 has. Blizzards devs have said A LOT OF THINGS and I think they even said once that they will try to get rid of the deathball ... but then Browder also says stuff that the players WANT the deathball (which is a stupid thing to say). Surely the deathball is the most efficient way to maximize your army dps, but does that mean it has to be automatically achieved? No! It would make MUCH more sense to make players WORK for their deathball by adding a forced unit spreading that could be overcome through micro. They didnt understand that when they replied to the "dynamic unit movement" thread. So I would advise you to stop using them as a reference point ... at all ... permanently. They are the wrong crew to drive this ship, but the passengers (community) are just too baffled by the scenery of big explosions and of course the captains propaganda of "everything is fine". People who think that nothing is wrong remind me of this: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZiO9bqzHzg
It's like my conversation with X all over again. What are you arguing against exactly? Sounds more like you are in agreement. Screw what someone from Blizzard said for a moment and just look at their work instead to wrap your head around what I said with regards to the approach to design. Remember what I said about Blizzard not understanding concepts and feedback we've given them prior? Here, I bring up the stupid interviews again where they appear to be clueless or don't fully understand what we're trying to tell them. See what they did with phoenix movement for one. Well aware of those situations and we've had over a dozen good threads pertaining to dynamic unit movement now and explaining it's intricacies.
Once again we're using their body of work and what they've done as the driving force when I say Blizzard don't try re-attempt developing the same RTS. Any reference to an interview was a very minor point because it shows in their work from game to game.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On September 23 2013 14:32 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 14:13 Rabiator wrote:@StarStruck Blizzards devs HAVE tried to create a completely different game, because they did NOT start with the BW design and started with BW:HD ... they clearly started with a clean sheet of paper and simply copied some things onto it (Marine, Siege Tank, BC, Zealot, ...). The rest of it they designed from the ground up and this is clearly seen by the new "bonus damage system" (which actually is more of a damage restriction system). Sure, the old system in BW wasnt really clear, but only because that OLD game didnt have tooltips to explain it. As a casual I didnt really need tooltips, but making units practically useless against certain types of armor is something that only SC2 has. Blizzards devs have said A LOT OF THINGS and I think they even said once that they will try to get rid of the deathball ... but then Browder also says stuff that the players WANT the deathball (which is a stupid thing to say). Surely the deathball is the most efficient way to maximize your army dps, but does that mean it has to be automatically achieved? No! It would make MUCH more sense to make players WORK for their deathball by adding a forced unit spreading that could be overcome through micro. They didnt understand that when they replied to the "dynamic unit movement" thread. So I would advise you to stop using them as a reference point ... at all ... permanently. They are the wrong crew to drive this ship, but the passengers (community) are just too baffled by the scenery of big explosions and of course the captains propaganda of "everything is fine". People who think that nothing is wrong remind me of this: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZiO9bqzHzg It's like my conversation with X all over again. What are you arguing against exactly? Sounds more like you are in agreement. Screw what someone from Blizzard said for a moment and just look at their work instead to wrap your head around what I said with regards to the approach to design. Remember what I said about Blizzard not understanding concepts and feedback we've given them prior? Here, I bring up the stupid interviews again where they appear to be clueless or don't fully understand what we're trying to tell them. See what they did with phoenix movement for one. Well aware of those situations and we've had over a dozen good threads pertaining to dynamic unit movement now and explaining it's intricacies. Once again we're using their body of work and what they've done as the driving force when I say Blizzard don't try re-attempt developing the same RTS. Any reference to an interview was a very minor point because it shows in their work from game to game.
I feel like that bolded part is the reason why so many things in SCII haven't been fixed(barring deathballs lol). Aside from the fact that the creators of SCII have big egos thus refusing to even try to make some changes suggested by the community (ex. carrier or tank buff), I feel that they either don't understand the dynamic unit movement stuff or its quite possible that they don't know how to implement it with the current engine so while they heard the community a gazillion times, they still don't know how to make the changes lol
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Blizzcon. WoW is definitely the largest attraction at the event, and it makes sense because it is Blizzard's biggest money maker. Giving SC2 a center stage and bigger presence however, can help to attract new fans to sit, watch, and become absorbed.
Were you at BlizzCon 2011? The GSL finals, the BlizzCon invitational. Catacylsm was already in a open beta practically and there was nothing new to talk about it. D3 new class and HOTS was BlizzCon.
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On September 23 2013 14:32 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 14:13 Rabiator wrote:@StarStruck Blizzards devs HAVE tried to create a completely different game, because they did NOT start with the BW design and started with BW:HD ... they clearly started with a clean sheet of paper and simply copied some things onto it (Marine, Siege Tank, BC, Zealot, ...). The rest of it they designed from the ground up and this is clearly seen by the new "bonus damage system" (which actually is more of a damage restriction system). Sure, the old system in BW wasnt really clear, but only because that OLD game didnt have tooltips to explain it. As a casual I didnt really need tooltips, but making units practically useless against certain types of armor is something that only SC2 has. Blizzards devs have said A LOT OF THINGS and I think they even said once that they will try to get rid of the deathball ... but then Browder also says stuff that the players WANT the deathball (which is a stupid thing to say). Surely the deathball is the most efficient way to maximize your army dps, but does that mean it has to be automatically achieved? No! It would make MUCH more sense to make players WORK for their deathball by adding a forced unit spreading that could be overcome through micro. They didnt understand that when they replied to the "dynamic unit movement" thread. So I would advise you to stop using them as a reference point ... at all ... permanently. They are the wrong crew to drive this ship, but the passengers (community) are just too baffled by the scenery of big explosions and of course the captains propaganda of "everything is fine". People who think that nothing is wrong remind me of this: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZiO9bqzHzg It's like my conversation with X all over again. What are you arguing against exactly?
I am arguing against giving Blizzard devs ANY FORM OF CREDIT. They have designed a game - based upon a very well loved game - that works after a fashion and yet they totally fail to acknowledge any stupid mistakes and try to "fix" problems by adding more and more stupid things like "vs. bio" for Spore crawlers. They are either deliberately misleading the customers into thinking that they are right and that everything is fixable their way - hence the video link - OR they are simply too stupid to recognize the true problem. They deserve ZERO CREDIT and you said you were taking anything they say with a grain of salt ... when instead anything they say should be taken directly to the trash can.
The game has problems and the devs is one of them, because they are too fixed on "their vision of the game". With every product you HAVE TO have a quality control and check if you designed it correctly, but they never do it and the stupid core mechanics seem to set in stone forever ... which is a mistake.
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If Blizzard integrated ladders into the WCS format it could also serve to alleviate the issues with bar-coded players.
For example suppose Blizzard included a rule that all WCS competing players had to be minimum of GM on the account they are playing on in the tournament in the same region ( ie. if Jaedong was playing WCS AM he would need GM on AM ladder) - and that the account name would be the same name that appeared on all official communications/brackets/seedings/casting -> Then players would kind of have to play under their named account because otherwise they would be facing a lot of confusion in reading brackets, upsetting their sponsors and also not getting as much exposure ( assuming Blizzard said refer to them as bar-code if that's their name).
Also using just the GM ladder or adding a new teir ( ie. Qualifier tier -> top 1% of masters + GM or something) would also increase its significance as players are required to regularly keep up their ranks
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On September 23 2013 01:46 Smackzilla wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 01:17 DemigodcelpH wrote:On September 23 2013 01:09 Smackzilla wrote:
What's the problem: Broodwar fans who think that the answer can be found by looking backwards
Look, SC2 needs success in the west with western casuals. BW-era chat or bad pathing making for demanding mechanics isn't what SC2 needs. How hard it is going up a ramp didn't have mass appeal in the west then and it won't now. I'm even skeptical that if a pretty BW was released for the first time in Korea today or even 2010 that it would have had its earlier success given the current competition - especially if people actually had to pay for it.
Whatever grows SC2 will have little to do with what appealed to hardcore BW fans. And this speculation is based on what? On the contrary, though what you're saying is speculation, the reverse of it (SC2 fans who know nothing about history) is equally as bad for the series if how SC2 turned out (terrible terrible damage, less diversity, the state of the protoss in SC2, steroided super economics that are redundant beyond 3 mining bases) in the hands of people without a BW history (Browder and a brand new team) is anything to go by. Speculation? First, its clear that BW was never a big esport in the west. SC2 was orders of magnitude more successful than BW as a western esport. The west went with shooters and even War3. Second, its just common sense that a casual player can't appreciate the skill it takes to overcome the glitches and bad UI of BW. If those skills aren't immediately obvious to casuals, then how would that improve SC2's mass appeal? Do you really mean to tell me that SC2 has been surpassed by LoL (and probably DoTA2) because it has easier mechanics than BW? You *add* to the conversation: high damage, diversity, powerful econ, etc. I'll ask you the same question to those: Are they the reason why SC2 has fallen off since late 2011/early 2012? Diversity is the only one that holds water in my opinion, but #1 that wasn't in the OP and #2 its not like BW *owns* diversity and we need BW to tell us "hey, seeing more builds makes things more entertaining.
The only reason SC2 was big in the west is because it has living off of the international success of BW. If SC2 wasn't "the sequel to BW by Blizzard" then it likely would've been another mediocre RTS that nobody played. As for your "casuals prefer SC2" comment I'm a casual player by all means, and I find SC2's hand-holding to be boring/inspiration-dulling/depth-killing, so you should stop projecting what casual players want. Furthermore if you're trying to discuss what appeals to casuals then BW's dynamic and more varied games with higher emphasis on positioning and micro are significantly more entertaining to the casual watcher. Someone made a good analogy earlier which was that SC2's battles can be likened to setting up pieces and pressing a button to run a fast simulation.
The fact of the matter is SC2 is killing this series largely because of a new generation that paid no respect to the roots (BW) and created a poorly designed game. The more analytic members of the SC community have been pointing out these design flaws since beta, but Browder and the team were arrogant about keeping in things they thought of themselves.
In all fairness HotS was excellent because it was mostly based on community feedback, but it's just a layer on top of an inherently bad designed game.
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In terms of design building blocks the two games are very similar. If you change the pathfinding that will have vast gameplay effects, but it's still only one change.
Starcraft 2 is clearly meant to be the same game as Brood War, but updated for a more modern audience. One of the reasons behind the development of the game was that it was supposed to replace BW as an e-sports in Korea, and of course it was also supposed to create a similar e-sports scene in the west.
Blizzard employees will tell you differently, but why listen to them? SC:BW, WCII, WC3, WoW, Diablo, they're all completely different games. Starcraft 2 on the other hand relates to SC:BW the same way some Call of Duty shooter relates to the one that was made the year before. It has a minimum number of changes, and for every one of them you can directly see how Blizzard was forced to make those changes. Interface and pathfinding is part of the modernizing process, unit changes are to add enough new elements and are forced anyway because of the pathfinding changes -- and keep in mind that almost all new units in SC2 are based on elements from BW. (Raven's PDD is similar to dark swarm, hellion is a combination of vulture and firebat)
I'm not saying that Blizzard is evil for doing this, but certainly we should stop talking about how the games have just zero relation to each other and they're meant for different audiences or whatever.
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On September 23 2013 15:15 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 14:32 StarStruck wrote:On September 23 2013 14:13 Rabiator wrote:@StarStruck Blizzards devs HAVE tried to create a completely different game, because they did NOT start with the BW design and started with BW:HD ... they clearly started with a clean sheet of paper and simply copied some things onto it (Marine, Siege Tank, BC, Zealot, ...). The rest of it they designed from the ground up and this is clearly seen by the new "bonus damage system" (which actually is more of a damage restriction system). Sure, the old system in BW wasnt really clear, but only because that OLD game didnt have tooltips to explain it. As a casual I didnt really need tooltips, but making units practically useless against certain types of armor is something that only SC2 has. Blizzards devs have said A LOT OF THINGS and I think they even said once that they will try to get rid of the deathball ... but then Browder also says stuff that the players WANT the deathball (which is a stupid thing to say). Surely the deathball is the most efficient way to maximize your army dps, but does that mean it has to be automatically achieved? No! It would make MUCH more sense to make players WORK for their deathball by adding a forced unit spreading that could be overcome through micro. They didnt understand that when they replied to the "dynamic unit movement" thread. So I would advise you to stop using them as a reference point ... at all ... permanently. They are the wrong crew to drive this ship, but the passengers (community) are just too baffled by the scenery of big explosions and of course the captains propaganda of "everything is fine". People who think that nothing is wrong remind me of this: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZiO9bqzHzg It's like my conversation with X all over again. What are you arguing against exactly? I am arguing against giving Blizzard devs ANY FORM OF CREDIT. They have designed a game - based upon a very well loved game - that works after a fashion and yet they totally fail to acknowledge any stupid mistakes and try to "fix" problems by adding more and more stupid things like "vs. bio" for Spore crawlers. They are either deliberately misleading the customers into thinking that they are right and that everything is fixable their way - hence the video link - OR they are simply too stupid to recognize the true problem. They deserve ZERO CREDIT and you said you were taking anything they say with a grain of salt ... when instead anything they say should be taken directly to the trash can. The game has problems and the devs is one of them, because they are too fixed on "their vision of the game". With every product you HAVE TO have a quality control and check if you designed it correctly, but they never do it and the stupid core mechanics seem to set in stone forever ... which is a mistake.
This. exactly what I've been thinking.
When I look at LoL in 2009 and 2013, I see a GIANT step forward.
When I look at SC2, its still in 2010. Nothing has changed.
They don't even need a frigging design team for that. One 'genius' guy like Icefrog would be totally enough to fix every issue with the game.
EDIT: this is wrong. post beneath me is right. sry.
+ Show Spoiler +What I think is blizzard did wrong, they had very linear decision making about multiplayer:
1. Starcraft is popular in Korea.
2. Koreans are the best.
3. Hire one Korean, and he will make the best multiplayer rts.
With all due respect to DK, right now I don't think he or any1 in Blizzard have clue about sc2 problems and how to fix it.
no bashing intended. They did their best, but maybe sc2 needs someone with more/different talents?
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On September 23 2013 19:38 saddaromma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 15:15 Rabiator wrote:On September 23 2013 14:32 StarStruck wrote:On September 23 2013 14:13 Rabiator wrote:@StarStruck Blizzards devs HAVE tried to create a completely different game, because they did NOT start with the BW design and started with BW:HD ... they clearly started with a clean sheet of paper and simply copied some things onto it (Marine, Siege Tank, BC, Zealot, ...). The rest of it they designed from the ground up and this is clearly seen by the new "bonus damage system" (which actually is more of a damage restriction system). Sure, the old system in BW wasnt really clear, but only because that OLD game didnt have tooltips to explain it. As a casual I didnt really need tooltips, but making units practically useless against certain types of armor is something that only SC2 has. Blizzards devs have said A LOT OF THINGS and I think they even said once that they will try to get rid of the deathball ... but then Browder also says stuff that the players WANT the deathball (which is a stupid thing to say). Surely the deathball is the most efficient way to maximize your army dps, but does that mean it has to be automatically achieved? No! It would make MUCH more sense to make players WORK for their deathball by adding a forced unit spreading that could be overcome through micro. They didnt understand that when they replied to the "dynamic unit movement" thread. So I would advise you to stop using them as a reference point ... at all ... permanently. They are the wrong crew to drive this ship, but the passengers (community) are just too baffled by the scenery of big explosions and of course the captains propaganda of "everything is fine". People who think that nothing is wrong remind me of this: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZiO9bqzHzg It's like my conversation with X all over again. What are you arguing against exactly? I am arguing against giving Blizzard devs ANY FORM OF CREDIT. They have designed a game - based upon a very well loved game - that works after a fashion and yet they totally fail to acknowledge any stupid mistakes and try to "fix" problems by adding more and more stupid things like "vs. bio" for Spore crawlers. They are either deliberately misleading the customers into thinking that they are right and that everything is fixable their way - hence the video link - OR they are simply too stupid to recognize the true problem. They deserve ZERO CREDIT and you said you were taking anything they say with a grain of salt ... when instead anything they say should be taken directly to the trash can. The game has problems and the devs is one of them, because they are too fixed on "their vision of the game". With every product you HAVE TO have a quality control and check if you designed it correctly, but they never do it and the stupid core mechanics seem to set in stone forever ... which is a mistake. This. exactly what I've been thinking. When I look at LoL in 2009 and 2013, I see a GIANT step forward. When I look at SC2, its still in 2010. Nothing has changed. They don't even need a frigging design team for that. One 'genius' guy like Icefrog would be totally enough to fix every issue with the game. What I think is blizzard did wrong, they had very linear decision making about multiplayer: 1. Starcraft is popular in Korea. 2. Koreans are the best. 3. Hire one Korean, and he will make the best multiplayer rts. With all due respect to DK, right now I don't think he or any1 in Blizzard have clue about sc2 problems and how to fix it. no bashing intended. They did their best, but maybe sc2 needs someone with more/different talents?
DK never played SC:BW on higher level and he worked on DoW balance....
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On September 23 2013 19:47 TaShadan wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 19:38 saddaromma wrote:On September 23 2013 15:15 Rabiator wrote:On September 23 2013 14:32 StarStruck wrote:On September 23 2013 14:13 Rabiator wrote:@StarStruck Blizzards devs HAVE tried to create a completely different game, because they did NOT start with the BW design and started with BW:HD ... they clearly started with a clean sheet of paper and simply copied some things onto it (Marine, Siege Tank, BC, Zealot, ...). The rest of it they designed from the ground up and this is clearly seen by the new "bonus damage system" (which actually is more of a damage restriction system). Sure, the old system in BW wasnt really clear, but only because that OLD game didnt have tooltips to explain it. As a casual I didnt really need tooltips, but making units practically useless against certain types of armor is something that only SC2 has. Blizzards devs have said A LOT OF THINGS and I think they even said once that they will try to get rid of the deathball ... but then Browder also says stuff that the players WANT the deathball (which is a stupid thing to say). Surely the deathball is the most efficient way to maximize your army dps, but does that mean it has to be automatically achieved? No! It would make MUCH more sense to make players WORK for their deathball by adding a forced unit spreading that could be overcome through micro. They didnt understand that when they replied to the "dynamic unit movement" thread. So I would advise you to stop using them as a reference point ... at all ... permanently. They are the wrong crew to drive this ship, but the passengers (community) are just too baffled by the scenery of big explosions and of course the captains propaganda of "everything is fine". People who think that nothing is wrong remind me of this: + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZiO9bqzHzg It's like my conversation with X all over again. What are you arguing against exactly? I am arguing against giving Blizzard devs ANY FORM OF CREDIT. They have designed a game - based upon a very well loved game - that works after a fashion and yet they totally fail to acknowledge any stupid mistakes and try to "fix" problems by adding more and more stupid things like "vs. bio" for Spore crawlers. They are either deliberately misleading the customers into thinking that they are right and that everything is fixable their way - hence the video link - OR they are simply too stupid to recognize the true problem. They deserve ZERO CREDIT and you said you were taking anything they say with a grain of salt ... when instead anything they say should be taken directly to the trash can. The game has problems and the devs is one of them, because they are too fixed on "their vision of the game". With every product you HAVE TO have a quality control and check if you designed it correctly, but they never do it and the stupid core mechanics seem to set in stone forever ... which is a mistake. This. exactly what I've been thinking. When I look at LoL in 2009 and 2013, I see a GIANT step forward. When I look at SC2, its still in 2010. Nothing has changed. They don't even need a frigging design team for that. One 'genius' guy like Icefrog would be totally enough to fix every issue with the game. What I think is blizzard did wrong, they had very linear decision making about multiplayer: 1. Starcraft is popular in Korea. 2. Koreans are the best. 3. Hire one Korean, and he will make the best multiplayer rts. With all due respect to DK, right now I don't think he or any1 in Blizzard have clue about sc2 problems and how to fix it. no bashing intended. They did their best, but maybe sc2 needs someone with more/different talents? DK never played SC:BW on higher level and he worked on DoW balance....
David Kim is more similar to Dustin Browder who was the lead designer of other RTS games before. I think both of them were brought on midway through development of the game.
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On September 23 2013 19:38 saddaromma wrote:
They don't even need a frigging design team for that. One 'genius' guy like Icefrog would be totally enough to fix every issue with the game.
Well, certain flaws like the lack of high-ground, the economy, and butter-covered pathing could easily be fixed overnight if they wanted, but what about the rest of the stuff? Roaches? Sentries? Warp Gates? Mech and shield damage? Spawn Larvae and their ilk? All the weird bullshit added in HotS? What about the new additions they've already planned for Legacy of the Void?
When will all that be finished?
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On September 23 2013 20:08 PineapplePizza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 19:38 saddaromma wrote:
They don't even need a frigging design team for that. One 'genius' guy like Icefrog would be totally enough to fix every issue with the game. Well, certain flaws like the lack of high-ground, the economy, and butter-covered pathing could easily be fixed overnight if they wanted, but what about the rest of the stuff? Roaches? Sentries? Warp Gates? Mech and shield damage? Spawn Larvae and their ilk? All the weird bullshit added in HotS? What about the new additions they've already planned for Legacy of the Void? When will all that be finished?
Keep in mind that IceFrog very strongly takes community suggestions into account. If you use community feedback properly it's very helpful for a designer I think.
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Good thread, good points.
I´ve personally slowly watched less and less SC2 after I stopped playing it, and now I cannot remember the last time I watched it. I just do not care about who wins stuff. Dota2 finals was more exciting to me (I have never played Dota2) than whatever SC2 event of the last year.
Something needs to change if this game is to stay interesting, but as Xeris says in the article, the main problem with uninteresting battles is something that cannot easily be changed.
everyone remembers hiya vs free in bw, a completely unorthodox game with weird builds and timings, yet it was still a close game, and managed to be one of the most entertaining bw games ever.
Haha I loved that game. So much fun!
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On September 23 2013 20:08 PineapplePizza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2013 19:38 saddaromma wrote:
They don't even need a frigging design team for that. One 'genius' guy like Icefrog would be totally enough to fix every issue with the game. Well, certain flaws like the lack of high-ground, the economy, and butter-covered pathing could easily be fixed overnight if they wanted, but what about the rest of the stuff? Roaches? Sentries? Warp Gates? Mech and shield damage? Spawn Larvae and their ilk? All the weird bullshit added in HotS? What about the new additions they've already planned for Legacy of the Void? When will all that be finished?
fixing fundamental flaws would be a good start. For example terrible damage syndrome, 3-base economy efficiency and defender's advantage.
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Just make this game more competitive/balanced for teams
People love team games. Make 2v2, 3v3, 4v4 viable. Here are suggestions:
1. Lower supply cap, so you don't get 600 food vs. 600 food deathball nonsense. Lower it to say 100 supply max for each player so that attacks start earlier and are more frequent. For 4v4, lower it even more, to say 80.
2. Make units faster. Faster is exciting! Slow is boring! Terran tier 3 units are too slow. Take away some HP, give more mobility!
3. Allow more team-interaction - make mineral/gas sharing easier or automatic (via option) so there's joint team income.
The lack of balanced team games is ultimately what makes people leave this game and turn to LoL. It happened to me, and all my friends.
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in South Korea very smart live event promoters built a "Star Creation System" around Brood War which allowed female fans to attain a rooting interest in the games.
How "stars" are created is different for different cultures. However, US promoters are better at creating stars for "world wide consumption" than any others.
I'm talking guys like Don King, Vince Mcmahon, and David Stern.
The problem is, there is no money in SC2 eSports to garner the attention of very smart promoters who know how to "create stars".
Without this kind of "Star Power" the game will never have the attention of females. Very few women go on TL.Net so this angle is basically ignored.
Women won't play an RTS game in large numbers so their rooting interest must be piqued in other ways.
Without female fans eSports is going nowhere fast.
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On September 24 2013 00:32 lamprey1 wrote:
in South Korea very smart live event promoters built a "Star Creation System" around Brood War which allowed female fans to attain a rooting interest in the games.
How "stars" are created is different for different cultures. However, US promoters are better at creating stars for "world wide consumption" than any others.
I'm talking guys like Don King, Vince Mcmahon, and David Stern.
The problem is, there is no money in SC2 eSports to garner the attention of very smart promoters who know how to "create stars".
Without this kind of "Star Power" the game will never have the attention of females. Very few women go on TL.Net so this angle is basically ignored.
Women won't play an RTS game in large numbers so their rooting interest must be piqued in other ways.
Without female fans eSports is going nowhere fast.
^This is like saying "Be better looking..."
Many Korean girls are interested in progamers for 2 reasons:
1. Their looks, come on, before gamers were manly looking. Now the next gen guys are all scrawny looking that goes by the nerd stereotype. BoxeR, Reach, Yellow, NaDa could be confused with any movie stars.
2. Their level of plays, some player might not necessarily have the suave look but they make it up with their ability to play the game. Like Flash, being overshadowed by Jaedong, Bisu, and in shape Stork but hey he sure knows how to defeat his opponents.
THEN that's where personality shines.
But a part of the fascination and fandom are really based upon storyline which are crafted by factual results and interviews and CONVEYED and AMPLIFIED by commentators and casters. Many time I've seen and hear English casters spreading lies about a certain player without doing their own research. Korean have casters with script tailored to a player's circumstance and their enthusiasm is unparalleled by their western counterpart.
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On September 24 2013 00:46 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 00:32 lamprey1 wrote:
in South Korea very smart live event promoters built a "Star Creation System" around Brood War which allowed female fans to attain a rooting interest in the games.
How "stars" are created is different for different cultures. However, US promoters are better at creating stars for "world wide consumption" than any others.
I'm talking guys like Don King, Vince Mcmahon, and David Stern.
The problem is, there is no money in SC2 eSports to garner the attention of very smart promoters who know how to "create stars".
Without this kind of "Star Power" the game will never have the attention of females. Very few women go on TL.Net so this angle is basically ignored.
Women won't play an RTS game in large numbers so their rooting interest must be piqued in other ways.
Without female fans eSports is going nowhere fast. ^This is like saying "Be better looking..." Many Korean girls are interested in progamers for 2 reasons:
no. it is acknowledging that "live event promotion and execution" is just as sophisticated a profession as any other.
in this area SC2 eSports has been beyond horrific.
lots of people blab away about how this aspect is not important as long as the game is good.
And, that is bull.
it was rather entertaining watching several would-be eSports promoters just get steam rolled since July 2010.
i don't want to get into specifics because i dont want to start a flame war.
On September 24 2013 00:46 Xiphos wrote:
But a part of the fascination and fandom are really based upon storyline which are crafted by factual results and interviews and CONVEYED and AMPLIFIED by commentators and casters. Many time I've seen and hear English casters spreading lies about a certain player without doing their own research. Korean have casters with script tailored to a player's circumstance and their enthusiasm is unparalleled by their western counterpart.
it takes a real "system" not just a bunch of disparate "casters and commentators"
examine the WWE, and NBA and how they create stars. that is how its done.
not random independent guys blabbing away.
without a promoter at the top pulling the strings this elusive "star power" will never happen.
and it takes a promoter who really knows what they are doing... and guys like that cost money.
although the tone of my last couple of posts sounds negative... i am not negative on SC2.
i'm happy with it.
i didn't expect sc2 esports to sweep the nation... it never had a chance.
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Storylines are very important, but there have been great personalities and storylines forged here. IdrA and HuK are perfect examples of this. IdrA is gone now, and HuK's 'storyline' is pretty much nonexistent at the moment. HuK has moved from an exciting and compelling personality to a really good StarCraft player from Canada. For some reason, the crowd pleasing antics in-game, his rivalries with other players, the things that made you love and cheer for HuK outside of him being from NA don't exist anymore.
Same with most players. Stephano was the last foreign player that we really love(d) and rooted for because of a specific personality he had, and he's gone now.
If you look at the non Korean players (or even Korean players) there are only a very small handful of people viewers care about personality wise.
People love Scarlett because of her mystique and she's from NA. People love Polt ironically. People love Naniwa because of his explosiveness. People loved MKP because of his passion and his story (but he's pretty much done with SC now). It's true if there were better promoters more 'stars' may possibly be created. The problem lies in the fact that there is no incentive for a promoter to turn a player into a star. It makes sense in wrestling, or in Korean BW because there's just 1 avenue for a player to play in. It is in the interest of the organizer to make the players as star-like as possible because they can most directly benefit.
In SC2 there are so many different organizations which don't share the same goals or interests, are competing with each other to capture the most viewership. So what incentive would MLG for example have, in hiring a promoter to create some star players who will then go play in NASL and Dreamhack and IEM and give them higher viewership. Unless you can get player exclusivity to leagues, there's no incentive for these kind of promoters.
The best way to have a promoter is to have one on the teams themselves, but no team has the resources or capability to do that (besides EG).
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