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)[Show] Zerg Plus Juan - Page 7
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ivancype
Brazil485 Posts
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AnachronisticAnarchy
United States2957 Posts
On September 22 2013 04:44 chadissilent wrote: It sounds like you're just being a bitch about it. Find something else to worry about. The show itself was great. There's always good content coming out from these guys, keep it up! Couldn't you have kept it at least a little civil? I think her opinion is pretty bad too, but that doesn't mean I'll do the verbal equivalent of a direct slap to the face. | ||
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sudete
Singapore3054 Posts
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
On September 22 2013 18:14 metroid composite wrote: Yessssssssssss six pools :D. Fantastic episde once again. Hmm..so some quick notes/questions about the builds... 3 hatch before pool I'm really not sold on the benefits of 3 hatch before pool. I did some tests with 15 hatch 16 pool, and 15, 17, 17, spending all injects and resources on drones. (getting a third when I could afford it with the 15/16 build). I got to 54 supply in 6:15 with the 16 pool, and 54 supply in 6:25 with the 15, 17, 17. Here's the thing, for 300 minerals (really 350 because of the drone) a hatchery produces 4 larva per minute. If you're getting a spawning pool purely so that you can make queens and larva inject, and you're only getting two queens out of the deal, then let's split the cost of the spawning pool across those two queens. So...queens effectively cost 150 + 250/2 = 275 minerals. But they produce 6 larva per second--more than the 4 larva per second that a hatchery produces. Literally more larva for less money, even when we add in the cost of the spawning pool. Build time of a hatchery is 100. Build time of a queen is 50 (and then 40 more seconds before you get a larva popoff) which means you still get the benefit faster (in 90 seconds). And you get four larva at that time, instead of the one larva you get when a hatchery finishes. I mean yes, if you play hatch pool dropping early creep tumors and building more queens instead of injecting, you'll end up with fewer drones. 5 fewer drones like Suppy said sounds right (that's around the cost of two queens). But if you want to max out your drone count, I think delaying your initial queens by making another hatchery is actually bad. goswser's roach ling allin On the subject of goswser's 8 roach speedling allin...I feel like you should be able to do the same build but hatch first. You can still get the gas at the same time, and your pool will definitely be done before you have 100 gas (if you want to have 100 gas when your pool finishes, you'd do like...hatch, gas, pool). The only real difference is that it looks more normal if scouted. --------- Oh, one other quick note: know how people were messaging Suppy when you were in replays with stuff like "lol I'm on the stream"? Pretty sure there's a setting to make it so that you don't display the purple messages from people outside the game. Yeah the whole time I was sitting there wondering why Gowser didn't just hatch first. Later hatch (later queen) is a dead giveaway that you are doing something stinky and the Terran can easily put a second bunker up. | ||
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theacox
United States38 Posts
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
Metroid I personally really agree with you a lot and I as well tested 3 hatch before pool and felt like it wasn't that much of a difference, and I personally absolutely LOVE to have the creep spread of a 2 hatch 4 queen opening which I feel like is significantly diminished with a 3 hatch before pool opening. And yeah we also thought goswser should just hatch first with that build, we'll see if he comes back with any results of how hatch first works with it ^^ | ||
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DinosaurPoop
687 Posts
This might be the best show in HotS history I've ever watched. | ||
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metroid composite
Canada231 Posts
On September 23 2013 16:11 Superiorwolf wrote: Metroid I personally really agree with you a lot and I as well tested 3 hatch before pool and felt like it wasn't that much of a difference, and I personally absolutely LOVE to have the creep spread of a 2 hatch 4 queen opening which I feel like is significantly diminished with a 3 hatch before pool opening. Thanks . Yeah, 3 hatch has been puzzling me for a while when I see players like Jaedong do it. The best reason I could come up with is the creep generated by the hatchery. (So like...no delayed bunker rush on the third, can build spores/spines at the third slightly earlier if something crazy happens).Actually...I decided to get a little bit more scientific about testing 3 hatch builds, which is to say instead of playing two games hoping I played right, and then checking the replays, I pulled out one of the genetic algorithm methods and let it run for a while. (Evolution Chamber, as it's the algorithm I have downloaded). I ran it several times with an end goal of 72 drones 1 spawning pool, and 3 hatcheries. (That's enough drones to put 16 on each mineral patch, 3 on each gas, and to turn 6 drones into extractors). And....I got different results each time. + Show Spoiler + 9 Overlord M:101 G:0 9 ExtractorTrick M:80 G:0 17 SpawningPool M:303 G:0 16 Hatchery M:308 G:0 17 Hatchery M:302 G:0 16 Overlord M:101 G:0 16 Queen M:155 G:0 18 ExtractorTrick M:82 G:0 19 ExtractorTrick M:81 G:0 22 Overlord M:242 G:0 22 Queen M:154 G:0 32 Overlord M:309 G:0 38 Overlord M:190 G:0 38 ExtractorTrick M  0 G:054 ExtractorTrick M:230 G:0 time: 5:10 (48 drones, 3 hatcheries) 9 Overlord M:101 G:0 9 ExtractorTrick M:80 G:0 15 Hatchery M:310 G:0 17 Hatchery M:308 G:0 16 SpawningPool M:206 G:0 18 Overlord M:105 G:0 18 ExtractorTrick M:82 G:0 20 ExtractorTrick M:82 G:0 23 Queen M:267 G:0 25 Overlord M:117 G:0 25 Queen M:162 G:0 27 ExtractorTrick M:86 G:0 27 Queen M:154 G:0 30 Overlord M:108 G:0 39 Overlord M:100 G:0 41 Overlord M:143 G:0 56 Overlord M:108 G:0 60 Overlord M:131 G:0 78 ExtractorTrick M:332 G:0 time: 7:10 (72 drones, 3 hatches) 9 Overlord M:101 G:0 9 ExtractorTrick M:80 G:0 17 SpawningPool M:303 G:0 16 Hatchery M:308 G:0 17 Hatchery M:302 G:0 16 Overlord M:101 G:0 16 Queen M:155 G:0 18 ExtractorTrick M:82 G:0 19 ExtractorTrick M:81 G:0 23 Overlord M:192 G:0 24 Queen M:229 G:0 26 Queen M:161 G:0 28 Overlord M:111 G:0 39 Overlord M:103 G:0 43 Overlord M:249 G:0 54 Overlord M:115 G:0 54 Overlord M:120 G:0 78 ExtractorTrick M:211 G:0 time: 7:10 (72 drones, 3 hatches) 10 ExtractorTrick M:75 G:0 11 Overlord M:103 G:0 11 SpawningPool M:202 G:0 15 Hatchery M:310 G:0 16 Queen M:151 G:0 18 ExtractorTrick M:76 G:0 19 Overlord M:107 G:0 19 Hatchery M:307 G:0 21 Overlord M:111 G:0 22 Queen M:154 G:0 24 Queen M:158 G:0 33 Overlord M:104 G:0 36 Overlord M:113 G:0 36 Overlord M:105 G:0 54 Overlord M:122 G:0 57 Overlord M:104 G:0 62 ExtractorTrick M:109 G:0 78 ExtractorTrick M 5 G:0time: 7:12 (72 drones, 3 hatcheries. 71 drones at 7:10...) 9 Overlord M:101 G:0 9 ExtractorTrick M:80 G:0 13 SpawningPool M:208 G:0 17 Overlord M:321 G:0 17 Hatchery M:310 G:0 16 Queen M:153 G:0 18 Hatchery M:300 G:0 21 Overlord M:172 G:0 21 Queen M:154 G:0 25 Queen M:156 G:0 31 Overlord M:105 G:0 38 Overlord M:102 G:0 43 Overlord M:113 G:0 50 Overlord M:190 G:0 61 Overlord M:121 G:0 77 ExtractorTrick M:149 G:0 time: 7:11 (72 drones, 3 hatcheries) Sometimes with crazy early pools (11 pool). And with one 3 hatch before pool build. They all reached 72 drones about the same time, but one thing did jump out at me as better about the 3 hatch build, and that's that while it had the same amount of drones at the same time, it did have slightly more minerals unspent (that's a potential queen or ling speed upgrade, while ending up with the same number of drones at the same time). While an 11 pool gets you an early larva inject, it never really leaves you breathing room to spend money on other things. So...I tried to capture that "having extra money"--I wanted 3 hatcheries, 72 drones, and a bunch of leftover money (which I put into the requirements as wanting 14 overlords--that gives 118 supply, when before it only needed 78--so 5 more overlords than before, an extra 500 minerals. Obviously you'd put this towards like...lairs/roach warrens/metabolic boosts/queens instead of 5 more overlords than you need, I just chose something that was the closest I could think of to "500 spare money". And set that running while I did a few things around the house. When I got back I had... + Show Spoiler + 9 Overlord M:101 G:0 9 ExtractorTrick M:80 G:0 15 Hatchery M:310 G:0 15 SpawningPool M:201 G:0 18 Overlord M:249 G:0 18 ExtractorTrick M:149 G:0 19 Queen M:382 G:0 21 Hatchery M:302 G:0 20 Queen M:151 G:0 24 Overlord M:107 G:0 26 Overlord M:112 G:0 26 Queen M:150 G:0 38 Overlord M:101 G:0 43 Overlord M:114 G:0 51 Overlord M:115 G:0 62 Overlord M:103 G:0 62 Overlord M:101 G:0 69 Overlord M:234 G:0 69 Overlord M:134 G:0 69 Overlord M:284 G:0 69 Overlord M:329 G:0 78 Queen M:185 G:0 80 Queen M:186 G:0 time: 7:19 (72 drones, 3 hatcheries, 14 overlords) (......and also two bonus queens I didn't ask for. I simulated 65 million games, and nothing has ursurped this in 30,000 generations, so this should be pretty optimal--it's probably just a larva limitation since both drones and overlords use larva). ....15 hatch, 15 pool, getting one queen before starting your third. So....pretty much what I'd expect (at least from a build that worries about droning and not creep spreading). Perhaps a little interesting that it's 15/15, but I think that just maximizes larva generation (as long as your main never gets up to 3 larva, you're not wasting any larva, so you want to get the pool/hatch out earlier because they will help you generate larva. 15/15 means your main reaches 2 idle larva, just barely not wasting any). | ||
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Incand
143 Posts
I first started out by simply trying out each build order against an easy ai. The question only make sense if we are playing against cc first so I opted out of making ANY lings before saturated on 3 bases. I later experiemented with having 16 lings in addition to the queens at 7:00 without it significiently changing the result. Both builds were played out identically in gas & upgrade timings. The only real difference is the timing of the third hatchery. My execution is by no means free from error and contain mistakes but lets assume the method is stable i.e. a small error in input give a small error in the solution. So for this purpose the exact detail of the build isn't relevant but I wen't for a stand muta ling bling midgame with equal levels of creepspread (32% of map bel'shir when maxed) standard 4 queen opener
http://ggtracker.com/matches/4112926 3 hatch before pool
http://ggtracker.com/matches/4113062 3 hatch before pool starts hatch at 3:00 while the 4 queen openings started it at 6:00 The big advantage from a that early third come from the larva. A hatchery started 3 minutes earlier have had time to produce If we compare the two builds we find that a hatchery would generate 12 larva in those 3 minutes. By delaying the pool we in turn delay our queens by 50 sec which equals to 10 larva. but we also get additional injects at our third hatchery which gives us an addition 12 larva. (first inject at third at 5:30 compared to 7:30) So in total we gained us 14 larva. In addition the tests revealed I had gathered ~1000 more resources at 12:30 with the 3h build. When you run this in sc2fusion or the earlier posted example you will see the program always converge towards a fast 3 hatch opening. Whether that is 15h 17h 17p or 15h 16p 17h or something similar doesn't really matter as far as I can tell but taking that fast third produce a significient advantage comparing to delaying it all the way to 5:30 or 6min. Either way going for such a greedy third should only be atempted vs cc firsts builds and the advantage of 3 hatch in particular compared to 15h 16p 17h is only the ease of execution. I prefer to have all my queens completing at the same time compared to having to delay one or two a little. Hope this all made sense to someone. I did this only to convince myself and didn't plan on posting any but thougth I share it since someone else wondered about the same thing. Edit: had mixed up the "build orders" multiple time. Think i fixed it now | ||
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Superiorwolf
United States5509 Posts
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metroid composite
Canada231 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + If we compare the two builds we find that a hatchery would generate 12 larva in those 3 minutes. By delaying the pool we in turn delay our queens by 50 sec which equals to 10 larva. but we also get additional injects at our third hatchery which gives us an addition 12 larva. (first inject at third at 5:30 compared to 7:30) So in total we gained us 14 larva. In addition the tests revealed I had gathered ~1000 more resources at 12:30 with the 3h build. But your builds have 4 queen ahead. + Show Spoiler + 3 hatch before pool
http://ggtracker.com/matches/4112926 standard 4 queen opener
http://ggtracker.com/matches/4113062 You seem to max 20 seconds earlier, and at 8:30 have 6 more drones and an extra queen when you get the pool. I think your text analysis also overestimates how much the third is delayed; you said "delayed by 3 minutes" but from your builds it looks like it was a 4:40 third compared to a 6:00 third, which is actually closer to 1:15. (so...5 less larva, not 12 less larva). | ||
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Incand
143 Posts
As for the third timing that was also an error 4:40 is actually the time of completion. It starts at 3 min. similary the 6:00 third finishes at 7:40. If you click the gg tracker links you can see the completed base timings in the graph as well as the timings for upgrades and such | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
 . Hoping for some mYi.Kane action next episode as well <3. In particular ZvT (of course it is always going to be the most entertaining) against unorthodox builds/ironing out the macro game (what are your major indicators/goals and reads you make on the Terran). Also, I really enjoyed your analysis of Roro in the first episode (that style looks AWESOME - and the banelings all connecting on marauders LOL). Have any of you played with it? Is it achievable? Looks awesome. And Suppy are you ever going to try a different opener or is your heart set on the six roach? Could you give the approximate timings for that? (I mean, I suppose I could just watch the stream). Any idea on early zerg pressures and how you would go about them? | ||
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metroid composite
Canada231 Posts
As for the third timing that was also an error 4:40 is actually the time of completion. It starts at 3 min. similary the 6:00 third finishes at 7:40. If you click the gg tracker links you can see the completed base timings in the graph as well as the timings for upgrades and such Ahh, ok, you got 4 queens before starting your third. Yes, obviously if you buy two extra queens for pure creep spread (300 minerals) instead of making a hatchery (300 minerals) one of these things makes larva, and the other makes creep tumors. So yes, investing money in creep tumors instead of drones I would certainly expect would result in fewer drones (but also more creep tumors!) one thing to note I'd say is that when going 3 hatch before pool, you don't really see 5:30 double gas. Instead, it's something like hatch-hatch-gas-pool because you absolutely need speed for lings in order to make sure you don't die to hellions. Another thing to factor in (at least in Sasquatch's case) is that some people 10 drone scout to confirm a CC first before going 3 hatch before pool in order to be safe, so that's an additional cost that must be factored in. Ling speed...means getting an extractor and then spending 100/100. An early extractor...extractors take 30 seconds to build, and then 50 more seconds of gas mining before reaching 100 gas. During that time, the drone that became an extractor would have mined about 55 minerals. And extractors cost 25 minerals. So...like overall 280 resources for fast speed. So like...this is how I'm currently thinking about it: as long as you're getting the same stuff, and it's all economy focused stuff, the order you get it won't make too much of a difference. (Hatch, Hatch, Pool? Hatch, Pool, Hatch? Pool, Hatch, Hatch? I'm guessing they'd all be within 5 seconds of each other provided none of them got speed or creep queens or lings). At least, this is what the genetic algorithms are telling me. So...really, the drone count differences between the builds should come from times when money was spent on something other than drones and larva production. (And how early the money is spent matters, of course). So...two early creep queens costs about 300; as noted above, early speed ends up costing about 300. So...how early do we spend these non-economy investments? Let's see... Jaedong vs Polt (game 4) when he went 3 hatch vs polt started speed at 4:50. Jaedong vs Polt (game 3) when he went hatch pool into 4 queen started the extra queens at 4:40 So...basically identical times to be spending 300 resources on something other than drones/larva production. I would expect these builds to end up very similar economically (if not harassed at all and allowed to drone), just one has earlier creep queens, and one has earlier speed. (As for drone scouting, that will depend a little on the map, and whether you would have drone scouted anyway, and whether you lose your drone scout like Jaedong. It probably occupies your drone for 2 minutes or so, which is 80 lost minerals, which should put your build behind by about...10 seconds? A base with 16 drone saturation mines about 105 minerals per 10 seconds, but you have less than full saturation when you send the scout. But yes, if one build drone scouts and the other doesn't, and the builds were close to begin with, that probably tips the balance). | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
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Aunvilgod
2653 Posts
Or did they announce another one? | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
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metroid composite
Canada231 Posts
I would like to hear them talk about Life and whether his playstyle is emulateable, though, as Life did specifically call out protoss as his best matchup on ladder at IEM NY, and some protoss have mentioned Life as the zerg they most hate playing against. | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
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Cereb
Denmark3388 Posts
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