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On August 24 2013 19:19 Mutineer wrote:
What I really do not undestand why SC2 have to have that mach mechanic component. It takes about 100 apm minimum only to produce, build, research resonably well. Which majority of non proffecionals have less then that apm, It greatly reduce enjoyement of game for non profecionals. So, why not reduce Mechanic APM needed? It is relativelly simple to do.
Example: Make quied units use no resources untill they are in production. Make it possible to autocats production. Add easy priority order of spending resource. For zerg, make injects and creep autocast, but do remove infinite range creep.
Make SCV, probes autocats. Add easy way to see total amount scv/probe drones we have. I am sure there some way to automate zerg production too.
This few changes will reduce mechanic for non profeccionals, makes game more fun for them as they will be able to spend more time doing fun stuff, like micro there units. Pro can still execise there A and S fingers.
For mech, I believe simpel reduction medibac volume of tanks to 2 and hellions to 1 will greatly increase mech mobility, making them more valible in all mach ups and do not change T-T too mach.
First of all, this is a terrible suggestion. Starcraft II stands apart from other games due to the learning curve and that it actually takes hard work and skill to win. I also like how you pulled that 100 apm number out of your ass. Seeing how you are one of those people that plays at under 100 apm, you have no fucking idea how much apm you need to macro.
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On August 25 2013 09:31 Mehukannu wrote:
Wish they would just make mech viable so the terran match-ups would actually get interesting enough to watch. Seriously fed up with bio now. I really don't see why blizzard is keeping their head up in their asses regarding the whole mech issues. Bio is really, really boring after you have seen it, oh, like, say, three fucking years. T_T
As long as the % are somewhat balanced, blizzard won't gamble with big patches that might turn their very own WCS tournaments into a farce. That's my guess.
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United States5938 Posts
On August 25 2013 10:03 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2013 09:31 Mehukannu wrote:
Wish they would just make mech viable so the terran match-ups would actually get interesting enough to watch. Seriously fed up with bio now. I really don't see why blizzard is keeping their head up in their asses regarding the whole mech issues. Bio is really, really boring after you have seen it, oh, like, say, three fucking years. T_T As long as the % are somewhat balanced, blizzard won't gamble with big patches that might turn their very own WCS tournaments into a farce. That's my guess.
It runs the risk of becoming a farce as is, however. Where they direct the metagame is their decision, and theirs to screw up, but it shouldn't be difficult to see what needs improvement. I'm surprised that their opinion is so strong regarding the status quo, however, pretty telling for me at least.
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People give David Kim a lot of crap but he knows his stuff
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I think the snipe question was a valid concern. Hell you can't even snipe a zergling any more, that's just ridiculous (and I am zerg) and of course it was much better before against zealots.
But great interview, nice questions and some solid answers from Kim.
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On August 25 2013 10:03 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2013 09:31 Mehukannu wrote:
Wish they would just make mech viable so the terran match-ups would actually get interesting enough to watch. Seriously fed up with bio now. I really don't see why blizzard is keeping their head up in their asses regarding the whole mech issues. Bio is really, really boring after you have seen it, oh, like, say, three fucking years. T_T As long as the % are somewhat balanced, blizzard won't gamble with big patches that might turn their very own WCS tournaments into a farce. That's my guess.
The bad part about this is that the "balanced percentages" is partly due to the design of the game. We had a pretty boring game in the WCS yesterday which showed that brilliantly. I think it was the game between Taeja and Rain on Whirlwind, where Taeja had a small lead from the start and pressured Raind for a long time and prevented him from getting another base for a long time and basically two full armies danced around each other for 20 minutes. Then there was one engagement and it was over in about 12 seconds. The point is that many games are decided by one mistake and it could be on either player who makes the mistake ... so basically its a game of chance ... a coinflip ... and not fully a game where the skill of the better player determines who wins. This is a fact because the game revolves around the core mechanics of "huge production" and "easy to manage and massively concentrated army with maximized firepower". This makes battles last only a few seconds and because of this people are scared to engage and maybe make a mistake. When they do engage it is all over in a few seconds and whoever made a huge mistake loses; usually both sides make equally sized mistakes and the result is a draw and both remax asap to do it again.
That "aggression at all costs" is really a bad part of the design of the game ... but sadly they dont see it.
On August 25 2013 12:50 tomastaz wrote:
People give David Kim a lot of crap but he knows his stuff
He talks a lot, but there is no "quality control" which really questions their own decisions or else they would have changed their general priorities a long time ago.
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In what way has TvP changed since even the beginning of SC2?
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On August 25 2013 16:34 a176 wrote:
In what way has TvP changed since even the beginning of SC2?
The number of bases both players take has increased.
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it's an absolutely awful response coming from dkim, sure he's a good player, but the way he avoids giving committed answers feels like a cop-out to me.
SC2, especially for terran players, is in danger of no longer being a strategy game. There is a grand total of 1 overarching strategy with slight variations. TvZ is a farce and it's probably the headline matchup of the game (sorry brotosses). Against Z it is biomine and against P it is bio viking.
Compare that to the wealth of TvZ styles we had in BW:
SK Terran (pure bio)
Bio-vulture into Mech transition (late Flash style)
Pure Mech
2 port wraith
Fast vessel irradiate
Valkonic
All of these, to my knowledge, have been viable and used up to 2012. Sure, some are more risky, but with a specialist using them, all are equally deadly on the right maps.
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On August 25 2013 12:50 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2013 10:03 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:On August 25 2013 09:31 Mehukannu wrote:
Wish they would just make mech viable so the terran match-ups would actually get interesting enough to watch. Seriously fed up with bio now. I really don't see why blizzard is keeping their head up in their asses regarding the whole mech issues. Bio is really, really boring after you have seen it, oh, like, say, three fucking years. T_T As long as the % are somewhat balanced, blizzard won't gamble with big patches that might turn their very own WCS tournaments into a farce. That's my guess. It runs the risk of becoming a farce as is, however. Where they direct the metagame is their decision, and theirs to screw up, but it shouldn't be difficult to see what needs improvement. I'm surprised that their opinion is so strong regarding the status quo, however, pretty telling for me at least.
I agree, but we've known the devs and their way of thinking for a long time now, their reaction and passivity should be expected. I reckon things are going to remain stale until Blizzcon/WCS grand final, after that if nothing is done then it's sad :<
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On August 25 2013 01:16 Coffee Zombie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2013 00:50 Cloak wrote:On August 24 2013 19:18 Coffee Zombie wrote:On August 24 2013 19:04 Zarahtra wrote:On August 24 2013 18:56 Teoita wrote:On August 24 2013 18:49 Zarahtra wrote:Despite the HotS changes to promote more harassment and multiple engagements, Protoss is still the race that encourages deathball play, especially in PvZ. While the warp prism buff is a step in the right direction, is Blizzard considering any other options to change this often-complained about aspect of Protoss?
DK: Not just Protoss in specific, just across the board every single race should have more harassment options, the more skirmishes there are in a given matchup, I think the better. And the reason is because like back in WoL right before HotS came out, if you take any matchup for example PvT, we saw many very similar games because Protoss players are defending drops so well that both players just macro up and don't fight for like 15 minutes and the game ends in 2 or 3 big engagements, if you watch 10 PvT games even on different maps, you see exact same games over and over again. We don't think that's a good thing, across the board we try to do our best to make sure we have more skirmishes. For Protoss specifically we currently don't have plans to change anything right now, but if Protoss or any race appear to be a little weak, the way we want to buff those races is by adding more options to be more on the aggressive. I just... buff gateway units so they don't get totally decimated by bio/zerg and nerf colossi/hts. Then protoss doesn't need to deathball. Protoss is just way to reliant on their power units to bring the pain while the gateway units are mostly just to tank. Sadly nothing will be done until LotV at first  You can't do that without making 3-7gate timings with blink or charge overpowered as hell. It's a much more complex issue. It's just not the commute time. It's the frontloaded production screwing up reinforcement dynamics and allowing the construction of production buildings way, way late (compare gate=>tranform=>get unit to getting the first units out of a reactored rax or getting a hatch up and having the first inject wave finally spawn), it's the ability to proxy nearly everything for 100 without leaving your base defenseless, it's not being able to ambush reinforcements or camp production. It breaks just about every fundamental logistics-side thing games like this are built upon, and that cause things to make sense. While the reinforcement aspect is altered, there is a replacement dynamic of pylon power, which should be fleshed out. If pylon power became more integral, it'd limit the all-innish tendency of Warpgate. If it was good enough, then Planetary Nexus would be unnecessary. Then we can return to Terran and Zerg early aggression against P balanced with the idea of P being able to aggress too. The power mechanic is binary enough to not really matter. You have power, or you don't, so pretty hard to see how that could be used to balance warp gates. And even then, it's just more complications that muddle the very basic rules and heuristics which should be natural.
Well, it's simple, start to make standing in Pylon power give you something, making the Warpgate timings more limited to Pylon range. The dance of aggression and defending the Pylon is most prominent in PvZ. It is based on a binary objective power or no power, but it still is a reinforcement vulnerability with a complex way of maintaining that objective.
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On August 24 2013 19:19 Mutineer wrote:
What I really do not undestand why SC2 have to have that mach mechanic component. It takes about 100 apm minimum only to produce, build, research resonably well. Which majority of non proffecionals have less then that apm, It greatly reduce enjoyement of game for non profecionals. So, why not reduce Mechanic APM needed? It is relativelly simple to do.
Example: Make quied units use no resources untill they are in production. Make it possible to autocats production. Add easy priority order of spending resource. For zerg, make injects and creep autocast, but do remove infinite range creep.
Make SCV, probes autocats. Add easy way to see total amount scv/probe drones we have. I am sure there some way to automate zerg production too.
This few changes will reduce mechanic for non profeccionals, makes game more fun for them as they will be able to spend more time doing fun stuff, like micro there units. Pro can still execise there A and S fingers.
For mech, I believe simpel reduction medibac volume of tanks to 2 and hellions to 1 will greatly increase mech mobility, making them more valible in all mach ups and do not change T-T too mach.
Your too much ahead of the curve unfortunately. Eventually you will likely be prooven right as the difficulty of the macro element is bad for esport games, however people are too unlogical too see this and thus you are receiving this type of criticism.
But it needs to be a step-by-step thing. It can't be done drastically.
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On August 25 2013 12:50 tomastaz wrote:
People give David Kim a lot of crap but he knows his stuff
Jaedong vs. First. First's Sentries get caught horribly, horribly offguard. Complete surprise, lings already all over them. FclickFclickFclick. Oh, now the lings are dead.
The ability to just flat out turn good positioning and surprise into bad positioning and being dead is horrendous. Knows his stuff, no.
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On August 25 2013 19:23 Emzeeshady wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2013 09:59 Billinator wrote:On August 24 2013 19:19 Mutineer wrote:
What I really do not undestand why SC2 have to have that mach mechanic component. It takes about 100 apm minimum only to produce, build, research resonably well. Which majority of non proffecionals have less then that apm, It greatly reduce enjoyement of game for non profecionals. So, why not reduce Mechanic APM needed? It is relativelly simple to do.
Example: Make quied units use no resources untill they are in production. Make it possible to autocats production. Add easy priority order of spending resource. For zerg, make injects and creep autocast, but do remove infinite range creep.
Make SCV, probes autocats. Add easy way to see total amount scv/probe drones we have. I am sure there some way to automate zerg production too.
This few changes will reduce mechanic for non profeccionals, makes game more fun for them as they will be able to spend more time doing fun stuff, like micro there units. Pro can still execise there A and S fingers.
For mech, I believe simpel reduction medibac volume of tanks to 2 and hellions to 1 will greatly increase mech mobility, making them more valible in all mach ups and do not change T-T too mach. First of all, this is a terrible suggestion. Starcraft II stands apart from other games due to the learning curve and that it actually takes hard work and skill to win. I also like how you pulled that 100 apm number out of your ass. Seeing how you are one of those people that plays at under 100 apm, you have no fucking idea how much apm you need to macro. It seems like half the people want SC2 to be easier to play (ala LOL) and half want it to be harder to play (ala BW).
macro is too easy right now, there's no challenge maxing out and what's more, 2 maxed out armies poking at each other is just awful to watch (see TvP).
APM I think has very little correlation to macro at the top level, flash has 50~ APM lower than JD but no one else can produce armies so fast it feels like cheating. Meanwhile JD devotes more of his APM to micro. 2 different styles, 2 different races, both very dominant. This gives the game depth.
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On August 24 2013 23:48 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +you DO realize Terran mech vs Protoss doesn't HAVE to be viable right? You can't have every option available to you, that's making your own race op. Bio in BW vs Protoss wasn't really viable except for few early game cheeses, and TvP in BW was the most balanced matchup we've seen ever.
That's like me complaining I can't go full sky toss vs. Terran. I've said this before and I'll say it again but this is such a ridiculous stance to take. Do you not want players to have options? Making mech viable makes agressive toss a lot more viable itself and it gives carriers a place in the game. Why the hell do you want to watch the same game every single game? Atleast in BW there was variation of meching styles, both offensive and defensive worked vs Toss and there was plenty Toss could do against it depending on the map. There's one bio style that works. It's get a fast natural into third base into attack and hope you kill the toss before he gets all his AOE. It's boring as hell. Why can't we atleast as spectators and players have options?
Taeja proved once again very publicly this time that that late game T bio viking ghost can be extremely powerful vs. P. He stomped Rain into the ground. The Whirlwind game especially showed how powerful mass ghost viking can be when played well with constant vision with scans of the Protoss. He made Ghosts look completely broken.
Variety: It should also be mentioned that in that supreme late game scenario it started to play a bit like a tank siege with full on engagements being delayed and delayed while chipping with nukes to inch in.
Next time I would like Rain to use 2 or 3 Oracles to get a similar vision read on his Terran enemy to allow for better movements and potentially HT micro.
Variety: We also saw a nice PvT that went to Tempests (not Taeja vs Rain... First vs. somebody right? I forget). If the Terran had scouted soon enough or been in a better position he could have countered with Ravens, further mixing up the compositions.
Variety: When Taeja was stomping Rain and killing all observers, he perhaps had an opportunity to build and use a couple of cloaked banshees to snipe HTs.
HotS has been out for not even a year. There are a ton more things to be seen as players get better.
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I cannot understand why everyone is crying for Mech in every MU. Imho Mech is extremly boring to watch, and that is what Blizzard don't want to have...
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On August 25 2013 19:56 Coffee Zombie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2013 12:50 tomastaz wrote:
People give David Kim a lot of crap but he knows his stuff Jaedong vs. First. First's Sentries get caught horribly, horribly offguard. Complete surprise, lings already all over them. FclickFclickFclick. Oh, now the lings are dead. The ability to just flat out turn good positioning and surprise into bad positioning and being dead is horrendous. Knows his stuff, no.
There is just nothing he can do without breaking the game
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On August 26 2013 06:22 Akaann wrote:
I cannot understand why everyone is crying for Mech in every MU. Imho Mech is extremly boring to watch, and that is what Blizzard don't want to have...
Mech itself may not be the most interesting but the plays used against mech are quite cool making it fun to have in the game. If anything it would just be nice for diversity.. TvP and TvZ are completely dull at the moment and David Kim is an idiot not seeing this... TvP is just always some sort of FE into MMM with ghosts/viking eventually trying to do damage through drops and multiprongs the variation is just very little, TvZ same thing with mines replacing ghosts/vikings. There may be quite a bit of action (though not really in TvP) but it's still quite stale.
Having mech play would open up possibilities, in TvP for example you'd see heavy immortal armies, blink harassment, stargate play and a cool role reversal where protoss actually wants to harass and force small fights while terran defends more. Plus it's a cool option for lower level players who wish to play more positional/macro intensive instead of the high micro style of bio.
In TvZ you'd get to see roaches, vipers, swarmhosts, overlord doomdrops, nydus etc, many of which are just useless now against bio. Sure mech could be cooler in itself but the fact mech play makes the other race play so much different and more interesting is good enough to have it be a big part. Ideally though mech is made good as real mech with tanks a vital part and thor's just in the role of goliath, only as neccesary AA. At the moment though mech just seems best as mass hellbat with a few tanks and mostly thor, incredibly boring.
David Kim is full of himself though thinking all matchups are really cool now. He doesn't want to do any real changes and not ruin the precious balance. In the meantime basically all hots units are gimmicky except the widowmine (which arguably breaks TvZ a little) and mech is still gone. The only great HotS changes were some of the nerfs to old units removing the dreaded infestor/bl combo from play.
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On August 26 2013 20:35 Markwerf wrote:
David Kim is full of himself though thinking all matchups are really cool now. He doesn't want to do any real changes and not ruin the precious balance. In the meantime basically all hots units are gimmicky except the widowmine (which arguably breaks TvZ a little) and mech is still gone. The only great HotS changes were some of the nerfs to old units removing the dreaded infestor/bl combo from play.
Actually Blizzard is aware that terran match-ups have become stale to spectate.
It's just that they screwed mech so badly it can't be fixed outside of a expansion.
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EPT
