i send leenock bank all information ipl why no send champion money -_-!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Multiple players still have yet to actually be paid for their IPL 5 tournament winnings. Okay so IGN is still responsible for paying these amounts out.
@LorangerChris @LiquidSnute Sniper and I heard even winner Leenock cant be paid
@Rocketbearr no i don`t get prizemoney IPL T_T
I want to get my prize money IPL in LasVegas . I request so many times theres no answer.. What can i do??? I dont get prize money anymore?
@SaintSnorlax @col_sasquatch @mvpdongraegu @dting888 I want to be paid too !
@LorangerChris @MVPDongRaeGu me too
Scarlett did get paid a few months ago what she was owed
Sasquatch @coL_Sasquatch @SaintSnorlax @MVPDongRaeGu no I think IGN still pays it, atleast they did for Scarlett... she just had to message @dting888 a bunch
David Ting @dting888 @LorangerChris @SaintSnorlax @coL_Sasquatch @MVPDongRaeGu Talked to IGN this morning, and they are on it. Stay tuned.
@dting888 Me and John have yet to receive full payment for work during Shootmania and SXSW respectively.
some independant contractors that worked for ipl also have gone unpaid
On August 12 2013 03:52 partydude89 wrote: so since blizzard hired the IPL guys, does this mean that blizzard has to pay out the prize money?
If blizzard truly bought out IPL then pretty sure they inherent their debits and are legally obligated to pay. However, if IPL went under and blizzard hired all the staff that left IPL and didn't buy the organization itself then Blizzard isn't responsible for paying off IPL's debits.
On August 12 2013 03:52 partydude89 wrote: so since blizzard hired the IPL guys, does this mean that blizzard has to pay out the prize money?
If blizzard truly bought out IPL then pretty sure they inherent their debits and are legally obligated to pay. However, if IPL went under and blizzard hired all the staff that left IPL and didn't buy the organization itself then Blizzard isn't responsible for paying off IPL's debits.
Then that means it would be IGN who is legally responsible.
Sasquatch @coL_Sasquatch @SaintSnorlax @MVPDongRaeGu no I think IGN still pays it, atleast they did for Scarlett... she just had to message @dting888 a bunch
On August 12 2013 03:52 partydude89 wrote: so since blizzard hired the IPL guys, does this mean that blizzard has to pay out the prize money?
ROFL, hey blizzard, you know some of the people you hired used to work at a company that hasn't paid out it's debts. You mind picking up the tab?
edit: one of the stupidest conclusions I've ever seen someone jump to in my entire life.
Was that edit really necessary? I'm not a legal guy by any means, and i wasn't sure what happens to a companies debt when it gets absorbed by another company. no need to call me stupid
Horrible man!! Players need to be paid and like others have said I don't think blizzard is responsible for it. They didn't buy IPL. They just hired starff that were unemployed now and bought some of the equipment. They never actually bought IPL, I think.
On August 12 2013 03:52 partydude89 wrote: so since blizzard hired the IPL guys, does this mean that blizzard has to pay out the prize money?
ROFL, hey blizzard, you know some of the people you hired used to work at a company that hasn't paid out it's debts. You mind picking up the tab?
edit: one of the stupidest conclusions I've ever seen someone jump to in my entire life.
Well thats not very nice. If Blizzard truly bought out IPL, then they would be legally obligated to pay up.
Yes you are right with that. But the quote stated that Blizzard hired the guys from IPL. I thought they bought the brand IGN. And when the tournament was held IPL was under the brand IGN. Blizzard didn't bought the brand so even when blizzard hired some of their employees doesn't mean that the debts gets transferred to blizzard. I hope this clears it a bit
On August 12 2013 03:52 partydude89 wrote: so since blizzard hired the IPL guys, does this mean that blizzard has to pay out the prize money?
ROFL, hey blizzard, you know some of the people you hired used to work at a company that hasn't paid out it's debts. You mind picking up the tab?
edit: one of the stupidest conclusions I've ever seen someone jump to in my entire life.
Well thats not very nice. If Blizzard truly bought out IPL, then they would be legally obligated to pay up.
Yes you are right with that. But the quote stated that Blizzard hired the guys from IPL. I thought they bought the brand IGN. And when the tournament was held IPL was under the brand IGN. Blizzard didn't bought the brand so even when blizzard hired some of their employees doesn't mean that the debts gets transferred to blizzard. I hope this clears it a bit
Oh, i thought they completely bought out IGN. thanks.
i dont understand how this shit is possible, how does a tournament not pay it's players on time? what happens if they never do pay the players? do the players sue or something?
On August 12 2013 04:02 Tobblish wrote: Blizzard doing jack is not making my opinion of that company positive.
Why if I cut a tree in my yard and it falls on my neighbour car is the guy from down the road suppose to come over and settle the dispute. What right does Blizzard have in all of this. They give a permit for a tournament and that's it. You could say Blizzard stop giving IPL the right to do tournaments, but that won't do a thing now.
On August 12 2013 04:02 Tobblish wrote: Blizzard doing jack is not making my opinion of that company positive.
Why if I cut a tree in my yard and it falls on my neighbour car is the guy from down the road suppose to come over and settle the dispute. What right does Blizzard have in all of this. They give a permit for a tournament and that's it. You could say Blizzard stop giving IPL the right to do tournaments, but that won't do a thing now.
Because Blizzard purchased "IGN Pro League technology and assets from IGN."
It's obviously very muddied as to who should be paying these players, whether it's IGN or Blizzard, one of them needs to do it though that is for sure. If IGN won't then Blizzard should out of good faith
On August 12 2013 04:02 Tobblish wrote: Blizzard doing jack is not making my opinion of that company positive.
Why if I cut a tree in my yard and it falls on my neighbour car is the guy from down the road suppose to come over and settle the dispute. What right does Blizzard have in all of this. They give a permit for a tournament and that's it. You could say Blizzard stop giving IPL the right to do tournaments, but that won't do a thing now.
Because Blizzard purchased "IGN Pro League technology and assets from IGN."
It's obviously very muddied as to who should be paying these players, whether it's IGN or Blizzard, one of them needs to do it though that is for sure. If IGN won't then Blizzard should out of good faith
I honestly don't think that its a discussion whenever blizzard has to pay or IGN. Yes Blizzard BOUGHT the assets BUT !! the tournament was organized by IGN, just because blizzard bought certain parts from IGN doesn't mean the debts transfer to Blizzard. This would only happen in they completely took over IGN as a full company
On August 12 2013 04:02 Tobblish wrote: Blizzard doing jack is not making my opinion of that company positive.
Why if I cut a tree in my yard and it falls on my neighbour car is the guy from down the road suppose to come over and settle the dispute. What right does Blizzard have in all of this. They give a permit for a tournament and that's it. You could say Blizzard stop giving IPL the right to do tournaments, but that won't do a thing now.
Because Blizzard purchased "IGN Pro League technology and assets from IGN."
It's obviously very muddied as to who should be paying these players, whether it's IGN or Blizzard, one of them needs to do it though that is for sure. If IGN won't then Blizzard should out of good faith
Yeah, but that doesn't really say they bought IPL the company. I always read that release like this.
On August 12 2013 03:52 Complete wrote: Refrsh me, IPL got sold to someone? Or they quit doing SC2 events? It was something...
blizzard bought ipl assets however i'm not sure if that means they're legally liable if anyone has any info let us know!
I'm not a legal expert but I did work for an attorney for some time, and if they were owed something and haven't been paid they can sue. Blizzard bought the assets, but IPL had an obligation to pay it's debts before selling out. Someone is in trouble, probably whoever owned IPL and then sold the assets before paying off the creditors. If you owe money on house or car, you can't just sell it to someone else and then not pay off the loan you had on it.
The people who didn't get paid should get an attorney, and the sooner the better. This has lawsuit written all over it.
On August 12 2013 04:02 Tobblish wrote: Blizzard doing jack is not making my opinion of that company positive.
Why if I cut a tree in my yard and it falls on my neighbour car is the guy from down the road suppose to come over and settle the dispute. What right does Blizzard have in all of this. They give a permit for a tournament and that's it. You could say Blizzard stop giving IPL the right to do tournaments, but that won't do a thing now.
What do you think speeds up the process and makes them actually do something. If Blizzard takes on the case to help out the players or if they are on their own.
Blizzard can't just stand on the sideline doing nothing, they used their product and license with the tournament. + Show Spoiler +
I wonder if theres something in the tournament license on paying out prize money.
This is something that actually kills e-sports. When the players don't get paid much outside of prize winnings then they better get the money they won. Otherwise they can't sustain themselves on playing.
lol @ not getting paid unless you pester one of the guys
actually that's not really that funny, that's pretty fucked up. I know how tough it is getting paid for your work from some people, as a freelancer, shit sucks. hope this all gets cleared up.
IGN is the parent company that owned IPL. Whatever profits or debts IPL had are owned by IGN. Blizzard bought assets, but for debt to transfer, they would have to buyout IGN, which they didn't do. All debts from IPL are still owed by IGN.
Do you teams that these players on are not have any role in chasing down the organizations that don't pay out for their player's wins? Maybe if the teams/players banded together and had some sort of class action suit, things like this would happen less. Regardless this should be really embarrassing for IGN and now Blizzard. I wonder what would occur if this happened to a Kespa player? I assume Kespa would be handling the issue so the players wouldn't have to worry about such nonsense.
On August 12 2013 04:37 iMOOrtal wrote: Do you teams that these players on are not have any role in chasing down the organizations that don't pay out for their player's wins? Maybe if the teams/players banded together and had some sort of class action suit, things like this would happen less. Regardless this should be really embarrassing for IGN and now Blizzard. I wonder what would occur if this happened to a Kespa player? I assume Kespa would be handling the issue so the players wouldn't have to worry about such nonsense.
On August 12 2013 04:37 iMOOrtal wrote: Do you teams that these players on are not have any role in chasing down the organizations that don't pay out for their player's wins? Maybe if the teams/players banded together and had some sort of class action suit, things like this would happen less. Regardless this should be really embarrassing for IGN and now Blizzard. I wonder what would occur if this happened to a Kespa player? I assume Kespa would be handling the issue so the players wouldn't have to worry about such nonsense.
Yeah, I think that is ONE good thing about KeSPA. It protects its affiliated players and tries to make sure that sponsors and organizers are honest with them.
Wake up people, if you haven't studied business, don't make (un)educated calls such as "Blizzard has bought IPL thus should pay DRG his money". There are so many things that are wrong in those sentences.
It's sad for DRG, but it's gonna be a tough fight for him to get paid.
Well at least Scarlett got payed eventually so maybe they just need to be a squeaky wheel. I know you read tl still Scarlett so how many times did you have to talk to ign before they payed you?
On August 12 2013 04:37 iMOOrtal wrote: Do you teams that these players on are not have any role in chasing down the organizations that don't pay out for their player's wins? Maybe if the teams/players banded together and had some sort of class action suit, things like this would happen less. Regardless this should be really embarrassing for IGN and now Blizzard. I wonder what would occur if this happened to a Kespa player? I assume Kespa would be handling the issue so the players wouldn't have to worry about such nonsense.
On August 12 2013 04:37 iMOOrtal wrote: Do you teams that these players on are not have any role in chasing down the organizations that don't pay out for their player's wins? Maybe if the teams/players banded together and had some sort of class action suit, things like this would happen less. Regardless this should be really embarrassing for IGN and now Blizzard. I wonder what would occur if this happened to a Kespa player? I assume Kespa would be handling the issue so the players wouldn't have to worry about such nonsense.
A sensationalist title. "Blizzard has purchased IPL's techonology and assets. " Not IPL as in the entire company. They also hired people who would otherwise have been jobless.
How much posts does it take for people to realize that AGAIN Blizzard bought assets from IGN. Not the brand IGN. And the tournament fell under IGN Entertainment. So IGN still has to pay. Blizzard has nothing to do with this in this regard.
Oh that is bad. IPL don't exist anymore, but the owners of IPL at that time will surely try to push those payments onto Blizzard, even if it doesn't make any sense. Means the only one getting that prize money is the lawyers if the winners try to get it >.< .
Hey guys. IGN / Ziff Davis is responsible for paying out these players. While I still worked at Blizzard I was trying to follow up on this as much as possible, but as I no longer work for Blizzard, I don't know who is handling this. I know many players, including the ones featured in this thread, followed up with me many times.
I followed up with Ziff Davis / IGN many times, but they were very slow or dodged responsibility.
The best course of action in getting these people paid is contacting Ziff Davis repeatedly / Internet justice by bringing attention to it. (Though please be professional and polite)
EDIT: I should add they HAVE paid out some players, but not others. Why this is, I do not really know. But for sure they have been very slow / tried to get it to go away.
On August 12 2013 03:52 Complete wrote: Refrsh me, IPL got sold to someone? Or they quit doing SC2 events? It was something...
blizzard bought ipl assets however i'm not sure if that means they're legally liable if anyone has any info let us know!
If you owe money on house or car, you can't just sell it to someone else and then not pay off the loan you had on it.
I don't think this analogy works.
1. Blizzard hired unemployed IPL staff, so that definitely doesn't apply to your scenario in this case.
2. The equipment blizz bought would have gone up for auction like in most bankruptcy cases anyways, so IPL had every right to sell them.
I don't think you understand. Why would they sue Blizzard? If I sell you my house without paying off the loan (assuming I somehow got my hands on the deed) would they go after you? Of course not! They'd come for me.
If IPL/IGN sold the assets of the company, the creditors have legitimate complaint and have a right to that money. The assets or the money from the sale of the assets should go the creditors. The players are a creditor, they helped IPL earn that money, and we never compensated.
Thus, someone has the money Blizzard paid for the assets. Probably IGN. I'm sure IGN paid off all the banks, other people ect first they owed because they didn't think the players would come for them. But IGN is still around, and they created IPL so they are likely the ones liable. I'm sure their legal team try to concoct some lame reason to why they can't/won't pay, and that is where you need an attorney willing to fight.
So the players should look at IGN. Unless as part of the sale Blizzard agreed to pick up these kind of expenses. Either way the players need a good attorney, willing to fight IGN for them.
Cant see Blizzard being culpable for this, However the parent company of IPL should be. I really do think that some sort of players union needs to be created and some rules put in place such as payment guaranteed i.e a third party comfiming the money is there,before these tournaments are attended by the players
Why the hell did they wait so long to make a public fuss about this? I think these players (and their teams) were a bit naive here Not to mention that IPL closed shop for quite some time now
This last week has been rough for the SC2 scene IM vs LG IPL vs Payments Retirements MLG dropping SC2
On August 12 2013 03:53 Mannerheim wrote: Not surprising in the least, IGN and everything affiliated with it is terrible. It's a shame anyone actually put their trust into that organization.
For someone less knowledgable about IGN, why is this not surprising/why is IGN "terrible"?
I filled out the IPL5 payment form as much as I could and sent a few emails in reply asking questions but it stopped there.
On a side note Campus Party Europe players did not get paid either, except for #1 finisher SuperNova. It's almost been a year with constant delays over e-mails and change of managements, responsible parties for paying out and the same old coproprate talk.
It's kinda sad that I feel like I should give special shoutouts to the tournaments and people that do legitimate business ... :D
i remember the long drawn out arguments about the viability of IPL. Their gate at live events was so low that this does not come as much of a surprise.
It's amazing how many tournament seem to suck at paying out players in a timely fashion. I know there was a big stink about it a while back, but it seems like the players still need to raise hell about it because frankly this kind of crap is completely unacceptable.
On August 12 2013 04:37 iMOOrtal wrote: Do you teams that these players on are not have any role in chasing down the organizations that don't pay out for their player's wins? Maybe if the teams/players banded together and had some sort of class action suit, things like this would happen less. Regardless this should be really embarrassing for IGN and now Blizzard. I wonder what would occur if this happened to a Kespa player? I assume Kespa would be handling the issue so the players wouldn't have to worry about such nonsense.
Why is it embarrassing for Blizzard?
Blizzard didn't buy IPL...
You see you think I'm going to say "because blizz bought IPL" when really my answer is:
Because it's Blizzard's game and the competitors playing it aren't always getting paid. It would be like if MLB had a team that didn't pay a player. It looks REALLY bad for the team, and it's a stain on the league. Now we can hold hands.
Sometimes I really think when a player finishes a tournament there should be a briefcase full of money with each player name on it and there it goes. You already know all the sums of money you're going to give out. Why can't you have the money on hand.
Hopefully someone from Blizzard can make a statement in the upcomming days.
When it comes to money issues you just never know.
At the start, NASL really looked like a disorganized circus run by a bunch of yahoos.
To contrast this IGN.com owned by Newscorp started its own league. David Ting sounded 100% convincing and I'm sure Mr. Ting will be great at deflecting any blame that comes his way. He is very well spoken.
I thought both leagues were drowning in red ink. Kudos to the NASL owner guy (Pfister?) for paying all his bills.
On August 12 2013 05:05 NPF wrote: Sometimes I really think when a player finishes a tournament there should be a briefcase full of money with each player name on it and there it goes. You already know all the sums of money you're going to give out. Why can't you have the money on hand.
Hopefully someone from Blizzard can make a statement in the upcomming days.
i think MLG does something very close to this. They chase down every player making sure they have a cheque in hand before the event is over.
carrying more than $10,000 across the US border is a bit of a hassle.
On August 12 2013 05:08 RyF wrote: is it so hard to get yourself a lawyer?
pros or just gamerkids..
Yes 17 year olds getting experts in internationnal lawy where they may not have signed a legally binding contract with an organization to be held liable to pay them money. Sounds like fun, and do that times 50 players...
Don't get me wrong, in my head a simple contract that a player signs and the organization signs with fixed prize money per finish and a player signature, with a clear set of rules could put a bit of pressure on companies to pay. Some big companies like to only make payment 60-90 days after a purchase (even if their bank account is in the millions), sponsored events, from personnal experience all the money should be there before the event even starts.
On August 12 2013 05:09 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
i think MLG does something very close to this. They chase down every player making sure they have a cheque in hand before the event is over.
carrying more than $10,000 across the US border is a bit of a hassle.
You're right, maybe a straight up wire transfer of money. I would imagine most people have bank accounts.
On August 12 2013 04:57 Liquid`Snute wrote: I filled out the IPL5 payment form as much as I could and sent a few emails in reply asking questions but it stopped there.
On a side note Campus Party Europe players did not get paid either, except for #1 finisher SuperNova. It's almost been a year with constant delays over e-mails and change of managements, responsible parties for paying out and the same old coproprate talk.
It's kinda sad that I feel like I should give special shoutouts to the tournaments and people that do legitimate business ... :D
You guys need a union/organization like Kespa that represents the players. Until that happens, you're going to get screwed. Even if you hired an attorney on your own it wouldn't help, tournaments would just not do business with you when there is so many other players willing to be screwed that will play in your place. If you had a union in place, they could demand the prize money be held in esquire before the tourney even began, ensuring you guys get paid. Otherwise, no tournament.
There is a reason most traditional sports have unions.
Not surprised by this as it happened many times in the past. Some really shady business practices for sure.
I think it's up to the players to harass the shit out of management because the more time that passes, the less chance they will pay up. They just waiting for people to forget about it. Good tactic :D
Blizzard effectively bought IPL. Legally they may just have hired the old employees, but everyone thinks of it as IPL and Blizzard seems to have attempted to at least present the same public personalities instead of subbing in their own or re-organizing. They may not be legally obligated to do anything, and they may not even be morally obligated to do anything, but I feel it would be the right thing to do after effectively taking over IPL. The prize money from one event is very little compared to their budgets for running events anyway.
Currently the professional SC2 scene has a terrible reputation where people can reasonably say that 9 months is relatively not very long to wait for a 40k USD payout, but in any professional industry or serious sport that would be ludicrous. Blizzard is attempting to control the tournament circuit so I feel it would be a fairly cheap way to improve their reputation and improve the trust in the SC2 tournament scene.
I wouldn't mind it if Blizzard took an even more direct role in managing tournaments. Maybe they could require proof of financial backing before allowing any major tournaments (say >10k total prize pool or something like that). If they really wanted to fix stuff they could even act as an intermediary when new or untrusted companies ran tournaments so Blizzard would make sure to get their prize money and they distribute it to the players in a reasonable and timely manner.
This kind of story is ridiculous, and Blizzard should do something about it. If for no other reason, then to improve the professional SC2 scene.
well they should clean the house and give licences to the organisations who open their books and prove they can pay. That would be a good way to get rid of the bums and restore the faith in the business.
but I understand it would set a precedent. How much was the prize pool anyways for that Campus party Europe tourney??
25?? 50 k??
Accept the fact that you licensed some crooks to run a tourney with your product and come clean. Even if you set a precedent, well ran business wont be affected.
If blizzard wants to be seen as a leader in the esport biz they must act accordingly.
Blizzard effectively bought IPL. Legally they may just have hired the old employees, but everyone thinks of it as IPL and Blizzard seems to have attempted to at least present the same public personalities instead of subbing in their own or re-organizing.
Blizzard did not "effectively buy" IPL, they only hired their old employees. And no one I know thinks of it as 'IPL'. There is no way in hell that this is Blizzard responsibility, legally or not. IGN is the company that ran IPL, they are the ones on the hook. It isn't Blizzard's job to pay out in case the tournament doesn't. That would be an awful precedent.
[QUOTE]On August 12 2013 05:46 BlackPanther wrote: [QUOTE]On August 12 2013 05:39 rasnj wrote: [QUOTE]On August 12 2013 05:08 Ace Frehley wrote: [QUOTE]On August 12 2013 05:05 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: imo blizzard should just fork over the cash.
what is it ? 75 ? 100k?? petty change to prevent your brand from being damaged like that... then turn around and sue IGN if its possible.
this is not good publicity. Even if the responsability of paying the guys is IGN's, the tourney was ran with a blizz product.[/QUOTE]
That would set a terrible precedent. Should they pay the [url=http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Campus_Party_Europe]http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Campus_Party_Europe[/url] too? According to Snute, they didn't pay everyone, either[/QUOTE] Blizzard effectively bought IPL. Legally they may just have hired the old employees, but everyone thinks of it as IPL and Blizzard seems to have attempted to at least present the same public personalities instead of subbing in their own or re-organizing.
Blizzard did not "effectively buy" IPL, they only hired their old employees. And no one I know thinks of it as 'IPL'. There is no way in hell that this is Blizzard responsibility, legally or not. IGN is the company that ran IPL, they are the ones on the hook. It isn't Blizzard's job to pay out in case the tournament doesn't. That would be an awful precedent. [/QUOTE]
Yes but imo they are morally responsible for it. They are the ones who licensed IPL without verifying if IPL would pay.
On August 12 2013 05:47 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: Yes but imo they are morally responsible for it. They are the ones who licensed IPL without verifying if IPL would pay.
There is no such thing as moral responsibility in business. IGN is the company that fucked this up and they are the ones responsible. I don't understand why you think that just because Blizzard picked up IPL employees makes them responsible for another companie's failures.
I agree that Blizzard shouldn't give licenses to tournaments unless they can verify that they will pay out the prizes in a timely manner(3 months max).
Unfortunately It's probably never going to happen because esports money is fake half the time.
Blizzard effectively bought IPL. Legally they may just have hired the old employees, but everyone thinks of it as IPL and Blizzard seems to have attempted to at least present the same public personalities instead of subbing in their own or re-organizing.
Blizzard did not "effectively buy" IPL, they only hired their old employees. And no one I know thinks of it as 'IPL'. There is no way in hell that this is Blizzard responsibility, legally or not. IGN is the company that ran IPL, they are the ones on the hook. It isn't Blizzard's job to pay out in case the tournament doesn't. That would be an awful precedent.
Yes but imo they are morally responsible for it. They are the ones who licensed IPL without verifying if IPL would pay.
[quote]There is no such thing as moral responsibility in business. IGN is the company that fucked this up and they are the ones responsible. I don't understand why you think that just because Blizzard picked up IPL employees makes them responsible for another companie's failures.
looks like you dont understand my point.
Im not saying they gotta pay because they hired keven knocke. I say they gotta pay because they gave them a license without verifying the financial state of IPL.
No moral responsability in business?? lol remember me not to ever do business with you.
Im not saying they gotta pay because they hired keven knocke. I say they gotta pay because they gave them a license without verifying the financial state of IPL.
No moral responsability in business?? lol remember me not to ever do business with you.
The moment you start trying to be the nice guy is the moment you start losing money. You are a fool to think that you should act as such in business.
And no, Blizzard is not responsible according to the tournament contract.
"You agree that you shall defend, indemnify and hold harmless Blizzard, and its affiliated companies (including, without limitation, Blizzard) and their respective employees, directors and officers from and against any and all expenses, judgments, awards, fines, and fees (including reasonable attorneys’ fees) solely with respect to any third party claims or actions brought against them which claims or actions arise out of the Tournament or any breach or alleged breach of any of Your representations, warranties or obligations hereunder. The obligations described in this section shall survive the termination or expiration of this Agreement."
Blizzard effectively bought IPL. Legally they may just have hired the old employees, but everyone thinks of it as IPL and Blizzard seems to have attempted to at least present the same public personalities instead of subbing in their own or re-organizing.
Blizzard did not "effectively buy" IPL, they only hired their old employees. And no one I know thinks of it as 'IPL'. There is no way in hell that this is Blizzard responsibility, legally or not. IGN is the company that ran IPL, they are the ones on the hook. It isn't Blizzard's job to pay out in case the tournament doesn't. That would be an awful precedent.
The headline on IGN's site read: Blizzard Buys IGN Pro League Assets I am in no way saying that they must pay, I don't know how the "acquisition" (or whatever you wish to call it) went down. However if you are a company that depends to a large extent on a community liking you, then sometimes it is a smart idea to do something nice for the community even if you could get around it technically.
As I said in my earlier post I would prefer if Blizzard performed some kind of screening process for tournament organizers, but in the case of IPL I feel their best option is to just pay out the 80k or whatever relatively small sum is missing.
On August 12 2013 06:00 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: its not about being nice. its about doing whats right and sustainability.
Honoring contracts is right and sustainable, not paying out for other's fuck ups. Blizzard paying out has the potential to fuck up the scene even more because then financially unstable tournaments would just let Blizzard cover the prize pool costs.
On August 12 2013 06:00 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: its not about being nice. its about doing whats right and sustainability.
Honoring contracts is right and sustainable, not paying out for other's fuck ups. Blizzard paying out has the potential to fuck up the scene even more because then financially unstable tournaments would just let Blizzard cover the prize pool costs.
Ideally Blizzard wouldn't let companies that can't pay out in a reasonable time frame run tournaments at all. But if they did that we probably wouldn't have any tournaments left. But IF they could guarantee that then this one time they had to do something would be a good PR move for their company and the amount of money is next to nothing for them.
On August 12 2013 06:00 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: its not about being nice. its about doing whats right and sustainability.
Honoring contracts is right and sustainable, not paying out for other's fuck ups. Blizzard paying out has the potential to fuck up the scene even more because then financially unstable tournaments would just let Blizzard cover the prize pool costs.
dude you are cherry picking my arguments.
I said blizzard should pay for those fuck ups and set a higher standard to hand out licenses in the future.
The debt/money owed should have shown up on IPL's balance sheet as a liability when Blizzard bought IPL. Thus, Blizzard would be responsible for the debt. If IPL did not disclose the debt for whatever reason, which is a silly assumption, then it would be on IPL for fraud or misrepresentation.
On August 12 2013 05:57 DrPandaPhD wrote: Blizzard shouldn't have to pay out the prize, but it would be a good PR move by them. Would make them look good after the stuff they have done lately
completely agree. Being a pro gamer isn't a very lucrative career choice and these players should be given what they earned. I mean what kind of money are we talking about here? 22K? Quite frankly, that's chump change to blizzard. They could probably just deduct it from the taxes as well...
On August 12 2013 06:01 rasnj wrote: The headline on IGN's site read: Blizzard Buys IGN Pro League Assets I am in no way saying that they must pay, I don't know how the "acquisition" (or whatever you wish to call it) went down.
its a biased source trying to avoid paying prize winners. Of course they are going to make this kind of claim on their own web site.
On August 12 2013 06:00 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: its not about being nice. its about doing whats right and sustainability.
Honoring contracts is right and sustainable, not paying out for other's fuck ups. Blizzard paying out has the potential to fuck up the scene even more because then financially unstable tournaments would just let Blizzard cover the prize pool costs.
dude you are cherry picking my arguments.
I said blizzard should pay for those fuck ups and set a higher standard to hand out licenses in the future.
And I'm saying Blizzard shouldn't pay. IGN should.
On August 12 2013 04:50 Mirhi wrote: Hey guys. IGN / Ziff Davis is responsible for paying out these players. While I still worked at Blizzard I was trying to follow up on this as much as possible, but as I no longer work for Blizzard, I don't know who is handling this. I know many players, including the ones featured in this thread, followed up with me many times.
I followed up with Ziff Davis / IGN many times, but they were very slow or dodged responsibility.
The best course of action in getting these people paid is contacting Ziff Davis repeatedly / Internet justice by bringing attention to it. (Though please be professional and polite)
EDIT: I should add they HAVE paid out some players, but not others. Why this is, I do not really know. But for sure they have been very slow / tried to get it to go away.
I feel like this needs to be put in the OP, to clear up any confusion about who owns the debts.
On August 12 2013 06:00 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: its not about being nice. its about doing whats right and sustainability.
Honoring contracts is right and sustainable, not paying out for other's fuck ups. Blizzard paying out has the potential to fuck up the scene even more because then financially unstable tournaments would just let Blizzard cover the prize pool costs.
dude you are cherry picking my arguments.
I said blizzard should pay for those fuck ups and set a higher standard to hand out licenses in the future.
And I'm saying Blizzard shouldn't pay. IGN should.
This is only in the case of IGN not paying, if IGN pays them of course Blizzard wouldn't have to.
On August 12 2013 05:05 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: imo blizzard should just fork over the cash.
what is it ? 75 ? 100k?? petty change to prevent your brand from being damaged like that... then turn around and sue IGN if its possible.
this is not good publicity. Even if the responsability of paying the guys is IGN's, the tourney was ran with a blizz product.
The moment they do that once the flood gates will be open and nobody will bother to pay players anymore since "Blizzard will take care of it eventually as long we don't pay".
On August 12 2013 06:05 FabledIntegral wrote: The debt/money owed should have shown up on IPL's balance sheet as a liability when Blizzard bought IPL. Thus, Blizzard would be responsible for the debt. If IPL did not disclose the debt for whatever reason, which is a silly assumption, then it would be on IPL for fraud or misrepresentation.
The question is whether or not IPL is a separate entity from IGN. From what I've read / know, IPL is a division within IGN. Blizzard picked up the employees and possibly bought their equipment after IPL's dissolution but that wouldn't make them responsible for debts incurred by IPL / IGN.
On August 12 2013 06:01 rasnj wrote: The headline on IGN's site read: Blizzard Buys IGN Pro League Assets I am in no way saying that they must pay, I don't know how the "acquisition" (or whatever you wish to call it) went down.
its a biased source trying to avoid paying prize winners. Of course they are going to make this kind of claim on their own web site.
Surely they didn't plan the headline all the way back then to deal with this issue. All gaming news networks (PC gamer, gamespot, etc.) report similar headlines though that may be based on the IGN article.
> New Assets Purchased for Online Content Initiatives, Apr 8, 2013 As an important next step in its ongoing efforts to provide world-class entertainment, Blizzard has purchased IGN Pro League technology and assets from IGN. ...
Again I am not saying they are legally required to pay. They probably are not, but you can't argue that Blizzard effectively took over IPL.
EDIT: And yes if IGN are responsible, then they should pay. However I feel Dongraegu or Leenock will have a hard time pressuring people at IGN, it would be much better if Blizzard (as a favor) helped in the talks with IGN.
EDIT: And yes if IGN are responsible, then they should pay. However I feel Dongraegu or Leenock will have a hard time pressuring people at IGN, it would be much better if Blizzard (as a favor) helped in the talks with IGN.
This is why the players need a union/kespa like organization.
You actually think Blizzard will help? Blizzard exists to make money, not to mediate disputes. It isn't Blizzards fault if a tournament refuses to pay and went belly up. The problem exists with IGN.
On August 12 2013 06:01 rasnj wrote: The headline on IGN's site read: Blizzard Buys IGN Pro League Assets I am in no way saying that they must pay, I don't know how the "acquisition" (or whatever you wish to call it) went down.
its a biased source trying to avoid paying prize winners. Of course they are going to make this kind of claim on their own web site.
Surely they didn't plan the headline all the way back then to deal with this issue. All gaming news networks (PC gamer, gamespot, etc.) report similar headlines though that may be based on the IGN article.
> New Assets Purchased for Online Content Initiatives, Apr 8, 2013 As an important next step in its ongoing efforts to provide world-class entertainment, Blizzard has purchased IGN Pro League technology and assets from IGN. ...
Again I am not saying they are legally required to pay. They probably are not, but you can't argue that Blizzard effectively took over IPL.
EDIT: And yes if IGN are responsible, then they should pay. However I feel Dongraegu or Leenock will have a hard time pressuring people at IGN, it would be much better if Blizzard (as a favor) helped in the talks with IGN.
The title make it pretty clear no? Blizzard bought IPL's assets, but not their liabilities.
On August 12 2013 06:01 rasnj wrote: The headline on IGN's site read: Blizzard Buys IGN Pro League Assets I am in no way saying that they must pay, I don't know how the "acquisition" (or whatever you wish to call it) went down.
its a biased source trying to avoid paying prize winners. Of course they are going to make this kind of claim on their own web site.
Surely they didn't plan the headline all the way back then to deal with this issue. All gaming news networks (PC gamer, gamespot, etc.) report similar headlines though that may be based on the IGN article.
Internal people at IPL were already deflecting requests from FXO, EG and other major teams. When ur organization is bleeding red ink by the bucket full you cover your bases and blur the lines as much as possible.
there was this back and forth sniping with MLG.... they both tried to compete with each other. MLG paid instantly. IPL .. not so much.
Sundance is probably laughing his ass off right now.
I find it hilarious how people are saying blizz should pay them. Just because they did something nice and picked up the IPL guys doesn't mean they have any responsibility. Blizz will be poor very fast if they pay for every tournament that fails to pay up. Hahaha...
So, if all this is true, they owe at least $43300, with the debt to Leenock being uncertain, as it was DRG who posted it for him. However, there might be more that are also missing their prize money from the tournament
On August 12 2013 06:25 TRaFFiC wrote: I find it hilarious how people are saying blizz should pay them. Just because they did something nice and picked up the IPL guys doesn't mean they have any responsibility. Blizz will be poor very fast if they pay for every tournament that fails to pay up. Hahaha...
yeah it's kind of a slippery slope, but ultimately it's good for the game in this instance.
It's so bad how some tournaments take so long to pay their winners and how much hassle it is sometimes. They have talked about this on several of the talks shows dozens of times. They worked to earn that money and shouldn't have to keep after the tournament to pay them a year later.
On August 12 2013 05:05 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: imo blizzard should just fork over the cash.
what is it ? 75 ? 100k?? petty change to prevent your brand from being damaged like that... then turn around and sue IGN if its possible.
this is not good publicity. Even if the responsability of paying the guys is IGN's, the tourney was ran with a blizz product.
The moment they do that once the flood gates will be open and nobody will bother to pay players anymore since "Blizzard will take care of it eventually as long we don't pay".
What? That's not even close to being true, Blizzard kinda bought IPL in a way. That's why they should show good will to players.
On August 12 2013 03:52 partydude89 wrote: so since blizzard hired the IPL guys, does this mean that blizzard has to pay out the prize money?
ROFL, hey blizzard, you know some of the people you hired used to work at a company that hasn't paid out it's debts. You mind picking up the tab?
edit: one of the stupidest conclusions I've ever seen someone jump to in my entire life.
Man I have to use your logic with my lawyer. I just bought a piece of property and someone owed back taxes on the property. I only found out after I closed on the property.
"ROFL hey Town of Marlborough Massachusetts, you know some of the people that used to own this property hasn't paid on their debts. You mind going after them and not me?
edit: One of the stupidest people on the teamliquid.net forums. i've ever seen in my entire life /quote
On August 12 2013 06:25 TRaFFiC wrote: I find it hilarious how people are saying blizz should pay them. Just because they did something nice and picked up the IPL guys doesn't mean they have any responsibility. Blizz will be poor very fast if they pay for every tournament that fails to pay up. Hahaha...
Blizz bought up IPL, that generally means they take on all the debts and stuff as well...
No one is saying EVERY tournament should be paid by Blizzard, but IPL probably should.
This thread is beyond hilarious, pray that advertisers don't read TL to take measure of the community because they're going to realize it is nothing but 14 year olds with no money.
On August 12 2013 06:25 TRaFFiC wrote: I find it hilarious how people are saying blizz should pay them. Just because they did something nice and picked up the IPL guys doesn't mean they have any responsibility. Blizz will be poor very fast if they pay for every tournament that fails to pay up. Hahaha...
Blizz bought up IPL, that generally means they take on all the debts and stuff as well...
No one is saying EVERY tournament should be paid by Blizzard, but IPL probably should.
Wrong, they bought the assets of IPL, not the liabilities.
On August 12 2013 03:52 partydude89 wrote: so since blizzard hired the IPL guys, does this mean that blizzard has to pay out the prize money?
ROFL, hey blizzard, you know some of the people you hired used to work at a company that hasn't paid out it's debts. You mind picking up the tab?
edit: one of the stupidest conclusions I've ever seen someone jump to in my entire life.
Man I have to use your logic with my lawyer. I just bought a piece of property and someone owed back taxes on the property. I only found out after I closed on the property.
"ROFL hey Town of Marlborough Massachusetts, you know some of the people that used to own this property hasn't paid on their debts. You mind going after them and not me?
edit: One of the stupidest people on the teamliquid.net forums. i've ever seen in my entire life /quote
Unless IGN actually owns people from IPL (as slaves), how are they responsible for their debt? That's like City of Malborough ask your boss for money instead of you.
On August 12 2013 06:25 TRaFFiC wrote: I find it hilarious how people are saying blizz should pay them. Just because they did something nice and picked up the IPL guys doesn't mean they have any responsibility. Blizz will be poor very fast if they pay for every tournament that fails to pay up. Hahaha...
Blizz bought up IPL, that generally means they take on all the debts and stuff as well...
No one is saying EVERY tournament should be paid by Blizzard, but IPL probably should.
As has been said before Blizzard bought some assets and hired some old employees. They did not buy/take over IPL.
this is why there should probably be some sort of union to hash these things out before hand. if IPL were still alive groups like KeSPA and ESF could hold their players out of IPL events until everyone was paid, but they aren't even around anymore. a union would force some kind of binding agreement beforehand. I guess ESF et al. could take it to blizzard and threaten to pull out of WCS, but I don't even know if that would work. but certainly they have to try.
if IGN really does still own the IPL brand and blizzard just bought the talent and equipment, then this sucks a lot more. the players would have to take IGN to court for the money, which would be much more difficult for them to do. I wonder if ESF has funds to handle those sorts of things? and if they don't, if KeSPA would step in for the good of the scene?
On August 12 2013 05:05 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: imo blizzard should just fork over the cash.
what is it ? 75 ? 100k?? petty change to prevent your brand from being damaged like that... then turn around and sue IGN if its possible.
this is not good publicity. Even if the responsability of paying the guys is IGN's, the tourney was ran with a blizz product.
The moment they do that once the flood gates will be open and nobody will bother to pay players anymore since "Blizzard will take care of it eventually as long we don't pay".
What? That's not even close to being true, Blizzard kinda bought IPL in a way. That's why they should show good will to players.
"in a way" is such a silly statement to make your argument which has no leggs to stand on. Unles Blizzard bought everything IPL related including the brand they have zero reason to start paying up.
Oh and that good will to the players will do more harm then good cause what is stopping other tournaments for pulling off the same and expecting Blizzard to pay as well?
On August 12 2013 06:05 FabledIntegral wrote: The debt/money owed should have shown up on IPL's balance sheet as a liability when Blizzard bought IPL. Thus, Blizzard would be responsible for the debt. If IPL did not disclose the debt for whatever reason, which is a silly assumption, then it would be on IPL for fraud or misrepresentation.
The question is whether or not IPL is a separate entity from IGN. From what I've read / know, IPL is a division within IGN. Blizzard picked up the employees and possibly bought their equipment after IPL's dissolution but that wouldn't make them responsible for debts incurred by IPL / IGN.
I was indeed under the impression it was a separate entity. I also did not realize it was just purchased assets. I thought it was an acquisition in which both assets and liabilities were both purchased.
On August 12 2013 07:03 negativedge wrote: this is why there should probably be some sort of union to hash these things out before hand. if IPL were still alive groups like KeSPA and ESF could hold their players out of IPL events until everyone was paid, but they aren't even around anymore. a union would force some kind of binding agreement beforehand. I guess ESF et al. could take it to blizzard and threaten to pull out of WCS, but I don't even know if that would work. but certainly they have to try.
Seriously, what has Blizzard to do with this? Threatening Blizzard? are you insane?
On August 12 2013 05:05 Kevin_Sorbo wrote: imo blizzard should just fork over the cash.
what is it ? 75 ? 100k?? petty change to prevent your brand from being damaged like that... then turn around and sue IGN if its possible.
this is not good publicity. Even if the responsability of paying the guys is IGN's, the tourney was ran with a blizz product.
The moment they do that once the flood gates will be open and nobody will bother to pay players anymore since "Blizzard will take care of it eventually as long we don't pay".
What? That's not even close to being true, Blizzard kinda bought IPL in a way. That's why they should show good will to players.
Oh and that good will to the players will do more harm then good cause what is stopping other tournaments for pulling off the same and expecting Blizzard to pay as well?
other tournaments still exist, bro. if someone like MLG or ESL did this, no player would ever go to those tournaments again. they wouldn't be so bush league as to try it simply because blizzard might maybe eventually pay the money. their organizations would be dead. immediately. in fact, blizzard probably wouldn't even let them hold events again even if they wanted to.
On August 12 2013 07:03 negativedge wrote: this is why there should probably be some sort of union to hash these things out before hand. if IPL were still alive groups like KeSPA and ESF could hold their players out of IPL events until everyone was paid, but they aren't even around anymore. a union would force some kind of binding agreement beforehand. I guess ESF et al. could take it to blizzard and threaten to pull out of WCS, but I don't even know if that would work. but certainly they have to try.
Be honest with ourselves, ESF has never done anything to protect its members. They don't have any sway and are a useless organization.
They've failed to actually stand up for IM who has legal grief against LG. They fail to transfer players through their channels (the players leave ESF and joined teams by themselves or through team managers not affiliated with ESF). They have no clout and will never be a player in the grand scheme of esports.
KESPA is the only organization with legal and political authority that can get things done.
damn, i hope the players get paid not many make great salaries, so tournament winnings are important to their income
on a somewhat related note, i know next mlg doesnt have sc2, but i've always heard players talking about how MLG is extremely diligent when it comes to paying players prize money, so good on them
On August 12 2013 07:03 negativedge wrote: this is why there should probably be some sort of union to hash these things out before hand. if IPL were still alive groups like KeSPA and ESF could hold their players out of IPL events until everyone was paid, but they aren't even around anymore. a union would force some kind of binding agreement beforehand. I guess ESF et al. could take it to blizzard and threaten to pull out of WCS, but I don't even know if that would work. but certainly they have to try.
Seriously, what has Blizzard to do with this? Threatening Blizzard? are you insane?
I said if blizzard owns IPL. we're not sure if they do or not. if they do, they are responsible for the debt. if they don't, then they aren't. but even if IGN is responsible, it certainly wouldn't hurt for, say, ESF to talk to blizzard to help put pressure on IGN. IGN doesn't care about the starcraft players, but if Blizzard said "hey, guess what? you get no press access to our games or events until you pay these players" then that is something IGN would care about.
On August 12 2013 07:09 simmeh wrote: damn, i hope the players get paid not many make great salaries, so tournament winnings are important to their income
on a somewhat related note, i know next mlg doesnt have sc2, but i've always heard players talking about how MLG is extremely diligent when it comes to paying players prize money, so good on them
yeah, some of us have been critical of MLG but perhaps unfairly critical. MLG does it right, that's for sure. this IPL stuff is super shady
On August 12 2013 07:12 ScLight wrote: Does anyone knows how this works legally?
Yeah, the players can prove what the advertised prize pool was, and that they finished in x position, so isn't there some legal procedure they can use to get the money? Granted that's kind of the team management's job rather than their own.
It's not only IPL, there is a lot of money that is yet to be paid from other tournaments and players bring that up from time to time but there is not much you can do
On August 12 2013 07:33 Bigtony wrote: All the people talking about 'get a lawyer' do not understand how lawyers work.
1. Lawyers cost money.
2. Lawyers will usually take part of your winnings.
3. Legal proceedings take a long time.
4. Even if you win, it is very very very difficult to 'force' someone to pay you.
The best way for them to get their money is to public ask for it and embarrass ign or whoever it is that actually owes them money.
Indeed. And if public condemnation doesn't work or isn't forceful enough, the players need outside help. They need the teams, ESF and/or KeSPA, and ideally Blizzard to be in their corner. A couple teenage Korean nationals trying to get money from an American corporation in an American court is a really tough go. This situation is total bullshit. We should be tweeting IGN at least.
On August 12 2013 07:35 Nerchio wrote: It's not only IPL, there is a lot of money that is yet to be paid from other tournaments and players bring that up from time to time but there is not much you can do
you can all make it as public as possible. there is no reason to keep quiet about this stuff. if the organizations are dicking over players, then the fans need to know about it. you don't have to put up with it.
A lawyer costs at least $50 an hour. A corporate lawyer who is actually capable of getting things done in a situation like this would probably run $150-200 an hour. This could be anywhere from 2 hours for phone calls to 500 hours if it goes to court. Basically everything depends on the contracts the players signed (if they even did) which guaranteed the prize money by X time. If the players don't have it in writing then the cases will be very difficult to win.
The best way to get results might be for Kespa/ESF to boycott IGN events until their players get paid.
I personally just sent an email to the sales director at IGN to let them know I will no longer use their web pages until they payout the prize money for IPL 5. I hope all of you will join me in boycotting their website until this is resolved.
As far as who is responsible for the payout, legally I think it depends on a couple things that we don't know...did the players sign some sort of contract/agreement upon entering the tournament. Either way, what a shitty way to behave on IPL/IGN's part...Hopefully these players get their money.
It's a surprise SC ever took off with all these shady companies. Just never watch another tourney of there's again and if it comes to a last resort, you're gonna have to sue.
On August 12 2013 07:50 BlazinHot wrote: I personally just sent an email to the sales director at IGN to let them know I will no longer use their web pages until they payout the prize money for IPL 5. I hope all of you will join me in boycotting their website until this is resolved.
On August 12 2013 03:52 partydude89 wrote: so since blizzard hired the IPL guys, does this mean that blizzard has to pay out the prize money?
ROFL, hey blizzard, you know some of the people you hired used to work at a company that hasn't paid out it's debts. You mind picking up the tab?
edit: one of the stupidest conclusions I've ever seen someone jump to in my entire life.
Man I have to use your logic with my lawyer. I just bought a piece of property and someone owed back taxes on the property. I only found out after I closed on the property.
"ROFL hey Town of Marlborough Massachusetts, you know some of the people that used to own this property hasn't paid on their debts. You mind going after them and not me?
edit: One of the stupidest people on the teamliquid.net forums. i've ever seen in my entire life /quote
your lawyer should of told you about title insurance
I tried for 2 years to contact the support from IGN, it's a ghost. No one reads those tickets. NO ONE. So I really hope they can use ex-insider contacts like David Ting cause else, I see no light for them. Maybe a legal action ? Dunno :/
On August 12 2013 09:16 Laryleprakon wrote: Sad news, for everyone that seems to love to hate MLG they seem to have never really had any issues with paying players.
I doubt they players can do a lot with the company gone now :/
This is not entirely true, it took a really long time for Leenock to get his 50k from Providence.
On August 12 2013 07:44 NovaMB wrote: According to moonglade the WCS season 1 prize money hasnt been paid either.
Andrew Pender @mOOnGLaDeau 50m Really over waiting for tournament money never knowing when I'll be paid next. Can't live like this #WCSseason1
This is probably bigger news. With WCS being Blizzard's main tournament, why aren't people getting angry at this?
Well it sucks Blizzard hasn't paid out season 1 yet and are slow. However, the difference is you know blizzard will pay out, so moonglade will get his money in the end. The IPL payment is more up in the air.
On August 12 2013 07:44 NovaMB wrote: According to moonglade the WCS season 1 prize money hasnt been paid either.
Andrew Pender @mOOnGLaDeau 50m Really over waiting for tournament money never knowing when I'll be paid next. Can't live like this #WCSseason1
This is probably bigger news. With WCS being Blizzard's main tournament, why aren't people getting angry at this?
Well it sucks Blizzard hasn't paid out season 1 yet and are slow. However, the difference is you know blizzard will pay out, so moonglade will get his money in the end. The IPL payment is more up in the air.
MLG was in charge of WCS AM season 1. Doesn't that mean they are the ones that have to pay? I don't know exactly how the agreement worked between MLG and Blizzard, but I recall MLG saying the prize pool at MLG spring was low because of all the money they had given away in WCS AM, implying that they were they ones paying (iirc, with support from Blizzard, but it would still be their responsibility).
I've never understood why payouts aren't instant and why players don't start raising hell within days of not getting paid. If prize money is from sponsors (aka guaranteed since it's not based on entry fees) is it a paperwork issue?
On August 12 2013 03:52 partydude89 wrote: so since blizzard hired the IPL guys, does this mean that blizzard has to pay out the prize money?
ROFL, hey blizzard, you know some of the people you hired used to work at a company that hasn't paid out it's debts. You mind picking up the tab?
edit: one of the stupidest conclusions I've ever seen someone jump to in my entire life.
Was that edit really necessary? I'm not a legal guy by any means, and i wasn't sure what happens to a companies debt when it gets absorbed by another company. no need to call me stupid
i think fingering blizzard with such a terrible logic on the front page of a news story on this site was pretty stupid.
here's hoping that IPL pays the players, i feel really bad for them.
On August 12 2013 10:15 Doodsmack wrote: I would not hesitate to sue whoever owes, if I was a US player who was owed money.
Of course you wouldn't, because you would have the thousands of dollars it would take to open litigation, right ?
"A Small Claims may be filed in the Las Vegas Justice Court only if:
Small Claims cases excluded from mediation will be set for a hearing before a Small Claims Referee once the Defendant(s) have filed Answer. This hearing date will be scheduled within 45 days of the Answer. The claim is for money only and does not exceed $7,500. If the claim is more than $7,500, you may wish to contact an attorney. If your claim is for more than $7,500, you cannot divide the claim by filing two or more separate actions. You may, however, decide not to pursue any amount over $7,500, and limit your possible recovery to a maximum of $7,500. Before filing a Small Claims Complaint, the plaintiff must do the following:
Send a demand letter, with return receipt requested, to the Defendant. The demand letter must instruct the Defendant to pay the amount due within 10 days of the date that the letter is sent, or the PLAINTIFF will file a Small Claims case against the Defendant. Wait at least 10 days from the date the demand letter is sent before filing a Small Claims case against the Defendant. Include a copy of the demand letter along with the signed return receipt (as proof of mailing) with the Small Claims Complaint when the Small Claims case is filed against the Defendant. You are 18 years old or older."
On August 12 2013 11:19 TRaFFiC wrote: I see a lot of talk here. Imagine my surprise when I searched "#payup" on twitter and only 1 tweet. Let's blow up their twitter.
Let's not. Team owners/management are just as much to blame for this. They need to be going through the proper channels (legal if necessary) to make sure their players are paid. Players and fans shouldn't be spamming Twitter accounts to find their winnings.
Let's not. Team owners/management are just as much to blame for this. They need to be going through the proper channels (legal if necessary) to make sure their players are paid. Players and fans shouldn't be spamming Twitter accounts to find their winnings.
This is embarrassing from so many angles.
Team owners and management are responsible for the poor fiscal management of a company they don't own? It's presumptuous on anyone's part to assume the individuals you speak of aren't following the proper channels. The fact that fans are so involved in the community and have so much care and concern as to seek restitution for the players and teams of a game they love is not only not embarrassing on any measure but in fact speaks to the tight-knit nature and level of attachment this community has.
Any time regular people see injustice in a giant company screwing individuals out of what they are owed and what actually amounts to little more than petty cash for a company, I am pleased.
On August 12 2013 11:19 TRaFFiC wrote: I see a lot of talk here. Imagine my surprise when I searched "#payup" on twitter and only 1 tweet. Let's blow up their twitter.
Let's not. Team owners/management are just as much to blame for this. They need to be going through the proper channels (legal if necessary) to make sure their players are paid. Players and fans shouldn't be spamming Twitter accounts to find their winnings.
On August 12 2013 11:19 TRaFFiC wrote: I see a lot of talk here. Imagine my surprise when I searched "#payup" on twitter and only 1 tweet. Let's blow up their twitter.
Let's not. Team owners/management are just as much to blame for this. They need to be going through the proper channels (legal if necessary) to make sure their players are paid. Players and fans shouldn't be spamming Twitter accounts to find their winnings.
It's wrong because you shouldn't have to waste money to get your due money. These companies are noticing SC2 wasn't profitable under their system and they act shady once they have to lose more money.
I remember my parents had a lawsuit with an employee who illegally sold their bus and tried to get away with the money. Took over a year to resolve and the legal fee was more than how much the bus was worth. The court system is so retarded and there's countless ways and loopholes to drag it longer than it needs to be. I think many esports organization just abuses this, because the legal fee for the prize money and time is not worth it to the players.
On August 12 2013 12:00 ScLight wrote: I remember my parents had a lawsuit with an employee who illegally sold their bus and tried to get away with the money. Took over a year to resolve and the legal fee was more than how much the bus was worth. The court system is so retarded and there's countless ways and loopholes to drag it longer than it needs to be. I think many esports organization just abuses this, because the legal fee for the prize money and time is not worth it to the players.
Also, even if you are successful in the court system there are still no guarantees you will ever see your money.
On August 12 2013 11:59 below66 wrote: It's wrong because you shouldn't have to waste money to get your due money. These companies are noticing SC2 wasn't profitable under their system and they act shady once they have to lose more money.
On August 12 2013 11:59 below66 wrote: It's wrong because you shouldn't have to waste money to get your due money. These companies are noticing SC2 wasn't profitable under their system and they act shady once they have to lose more money.
But that is not what he said though. He said that teams should help the players get paid, sure with legal means if needed, but that does not necessarily mean "waste money to get your due money".
In my experience (Not with IGL but with "Starcraft" companies), the best way to get paid is:
1. Choose who to contact carefully. Going to the CEO of IGN is obviously too high, but going to the support email won't help either. You need to cut through the get direct links to someone who can help you. Typically this is a VP with a made up title. So, not the VP of marketing, since he will be too busy doing real work - someone like the VP of Esports, or equivalent, should be your target.
1a. I started CCing PR personnel when I wasn't getting paid. They didn't help until step 4.
2. Make your claim simple and clear. This means: Prove who you are without question. Show screenshots or link to past websites showing the prize money. Link to results showing where you finished and/or post pictures of you finishing in that place. Provide paypal emails and mailing addresses upfront. Do not provide banking details, but tell then you can provide them if need be.
3. Be annoying. "I will contact you in 48 hours if I don't hear back." Then "I will contact you in 24 hours if I don't hear back." At the end of my journey I was emailing three people daily.
4, Threaten. This is where 1a pays off. Tell them this timeline is unacceptable and you will be posting all correspondence online to TL and Reddit for anyone to read. Begin talks with lawyers and get them to send a letter. You can get this done fairly cheaply. The PR person will likely get involved at this point.
At least, that's what I had to do when I was having these troubles (never did get a lawyer involved). Took 8 months and they had only a few days left to pay me before I was going to post everything to TL. Finally I did get paid.
this is pretty sad, even sadder to think that they were planning IPL6 without even paying out what they owe from IPL5. let's hope everybody gets the money they're owed
At least, that's what I had to do when I was having these troubles (never did get a lawyer involved). Took 8 months and they had only a few days left to pay me before I was going to post everything to TL. Finally I did get paid.
GL~
Wow. 8 months. Sounds like getting paid from a tournament is harder than winning one.
Ok I guess I have some relevant information to pitch in.
One of the reasons I got pretty close with team MVP's management in the first place was that I offered to go harass IGN for the money they owed MVP for IPTL's final season.
It was the same damn story.
David Ting and the gang keep saying things like "oh the money should have already been sent long ago, yatta yatta yatta" But in fact, nothing was being paid or processed unless you demand it either through actively harass by mail and phone calls, even threaten with legal proceedings.
That's what I did... and they paid... all $9000.00 that was owed to team MVP.
Here are some relevant emails you should have if you guys are up for it:
IGN account payable: ap@ign.com Frank Fields: ffields@blizzard.com <--former IPL operational manager and controller Kevin Knocke: catspajamassc2@gmail.com David Ting: dting@blizzard.com Errol Pinto: epinto@blizzard.com
This is sad. A year or so ago it was teams making big promises and not paying players... what makes this worse, in my mind, is that IPL and other tournaments never had to offer massive amounts of money they don't have (unlike teams which have to pay players enough for them to get by). While big prizes certainly make tournaments more appealing, IPL would have been roughly the same competition if it had offered $4,000 dollar grand prizes than if it had offered $40,000 ones. And it might still be running today if that had been the case (to be honest, when IPL went south I lost a lot of my interest in the game). Obviously the economics of competitive gaming still need to be worked out. There's also something to be said here about the "winner takes all" mentality of the big tournaments and how more even distribution of prize money between finalist (or semi-finalists or whatever) would make it much easier for more players to stay pro even if the overall prize offerings were a little (or a lot) lower. Gigantic grand prizes might look good, but if they bankrupt tournaments and make it harder for players to make a living (by narrowing the distribution to only the top performers) they might not be very good for the sport. If IPL hadn't offered as much prize money as it did to appease fans, maybe all the players would have been paid (and maybe IPL would still be around). Just something to think about before people get too pissed at IGN and the producers of IPL.
On August 12 2013 03:52 partydude89 wrote: so since blizzard hired the IPL guys, does this mean that blizzard has to pay out the prize money?
ROFL, hey blizzard, you know some of the people you hired used to work at a company that hasn't paid out it's debts. You mind picking up the tab?
edit: one of the stupidest conclusions I've ever seen someone jump to in my entire life.
Was that edit really necessary? I'm not a legal guy by any means, and i wasn't sure what happens to a companies debt when it gets absorbed by another company. no need to call me stupid
i think fingering blizzard with such a terrible logic on the front page of a news story on this site was pretty stupid.
here's hoping that IPL pays the players, i feel really bad for them.
lol that was not fingering blizzard. It sounded like a perfectly legit question to ask if you don't know the answer.
OT: same as everyone else, this is bullshit, they better pay up
There really needs to be something backing up the players in these kinds of things. An organisation of some kind to deal with these things because this is beyond unacceptable. :/
On August 12 2013 13:14 CursivE wrote: Cloaken, one of the Blizzard staff on Reddit has indicated that Blizzard are looking into the situation.
Wow that's pretty great to hear. Good to see Blizzard taking charge of the situation.
There's nothing good about this situation. The asshats that bailed at IGN should be held accountable, including the asshats Blizzard hired if they're culpable. I just don't think anyone should have to go through this to get what they're owed.
At this rate, team management may need to start lowering player salaries and bonuses just to keep lawyers on retainer. This is weakening my support for the SC2 scene altogether. I'm already at the point where I've cancelled most of my subscriptions related to players, teams or broadcasts. I've almost never heard of this kind of crap in any other esport. So what the fuck gives?
On August 12 2013 11:19 TRaFFiC wrote: I see a lot of talk here. Imagine my surprise when I searched "#payup" on twitter and only 1 tweet. Let's blow up their twitter.
Let's not. Team owners/management are just as much to blame for this. They need to be going through the proper channels (legal if necessary) to make sure their players are paid. Players and fans shouldn't be spamming Twitter accounts to find their winnings.
This is embarrassing from so many angles.
The only people who should be embarrassed are IGN for fucking over players. Legal is never the proper channel for getting anything done. Even if you win, nobody will force them to pay. You harass people to death, then threaten them, execute threats, then give up.
On August 12 2013 11:47 Aveng3r wrote: How many threads like these have we seen before..?
Too many. Really disgusting how people host tournaments and then blow off paying the winners.
Another problem in the scene is tournament winnings being delayed from being paid out for months and months. I know I have experienced this firsthand. Win money and wait half a year before I see any of it (and only after I have sent multiple emails and messages).
On August 12 2013 11:19 TRaFFiC wrote: I see a lot of talk here. Imagine my surprise when I searched "#payup" on twitter and only 1 tweet. Let's blow up their twitter.
Let's not. Team owners/management are just as much to blame for this. They need to be going through the proper channels (legal if necessary) to make sure their players are paid. Players and fans shouldn't be spamming Twitter accounts to find their winnings.
This is embarrassing from so many angles.
The only people who should be embarrassed are IGN for fucking over players. Legal is never the proper channel for getting anything done. Even if you win, nobody will force them to pay. You harass people to death, then threaten them, execute threats, then give up.
Legal might be the perfect way to go, at least in Sweden if you win a settlement i court then you can force the company to pay the settlement + legal fees + compensation for damages, I'd assume there is something similar in US law. Given that the is a case and that the legal fee + damages + settlement is high enough to be not be neglected by the company and low enough to avoid bankrupting the company other companies would realize that they NEED the money for the prize pool or there will be consequences. Or have 10k ppl complain on twitter (like anyone cares).
On August 12 2013 03:53 Mannerheim wrote: Not surprising in the least, IGN and everything affiliated with it is terrible. It's a shame anyone actually put their trust into that organization.
Towards the end, yes. At the start it was amazing, Alex Conn put in good work and had an amazing vision for the direction of it initially. Unfortunately he left down the road, and there were internal conflicts on what they should focus on, and which direction to take in terms of sc2.
They abandoned their original NA-centric scene approach to try to capitalize on the what seemed to be ever-growing popularity of the game (pretty much every company was attempting to do this at the time), but unfortunately sc2 was about to reach its peak and begin its decline. So IPL along with some other brands kept investing more resources than they should have which led to the eventual implosion of it.
On August 12 2013 13:15 neoghaleon55 wrote: Ok I guess I have some relevant information to pitch in.
One of the reasons I got pretty close with team MVP's management in the first place was that I offered to go harass IGN for the money they owed MVP for IPTL's final season.
It was the same damn story.
David Ting and the gang keep saying things like "oh the money should have already been sent long ago, yatta yatta yatta" But in fact, nothing was being paid or processed unless you demand it either through actively harass by mail and phone calls, even threaten with legal proceedings.
That's what I did... and they paid... all $9000.00 that was owed to team MVP.
Here are some relevant emails you should have if you guys are up for it:
IGN account payable: ap@ign.com Frank Fields: ffields@blizzard.com <--former IPL operational manager and controller Kevin Knocke: catspajamassc2@gmail.com David Ting: dting@blizzard.com Errol Pinto: epinto@blizzard.com
Why the fuck don't they have the money ready to be paid to the players before the event starts? Fuck, even having it ready at the end would be fine. Maybe tournaments that can't pay their players a lot of money on time should stick to having lower prize pools.
This isn't the first time this has happened, in fact this has happened multiple times in the past, but this bullshit needs to stop.
On August 12 2013 04:35 Derez wrote: IGN seems a more fitting target to rage at then blizzard. They assumed financial responsibility for it when they let david ting play around.
This is the reason why the IPL 4 Pacific Qualifiers and the PPSL went broke, because David Ting failed to live up to his so-called "promises". Can't you see the pattern with this shit happening ?
I read through 5 pages of this thread before I had to stop. The sheer stupidity in General Chat is absolutely ridiculous...and apparently it's still carrying on up to this page.
How the hell can we have 12 pages of people trying to blame Blizzard for this? What's the matter, everyone's pitchforks getting dull and they need to meet their weekly lynching quota?
I keep telling myself never to go to any SC2 thread except LRs, and every time I break that rule I feel the need to smash my head straight into a wall...
On August 12 2013 16:58 WolfintheSheep wrote: I read through 5 pages of this thread before I had to stop. The sheer stupidity in General Chat is absolutely ridiculous...and apparently it's still carrying on up to this page.
How the hell can we have 12 pages of people trying to blame Blizzard for this? What's the matter, everyone's pitchforks getting dull and they need to meet their weekly lynching quota?
I keep telling myself never to go to any SC2 thread except LRs, and every time I break that rule I feel the need to smash my head straight into a wall...
If ur heads hurts after the smashing.. u will see things more clearly and blame blizzard too, haha (joke)
On August 12 2013 03:52 partydude89 wrote: so since blizzard hired the IPL guys, does this mean that blizzard has to pay out the prize money?
ROFL, hey blizzard, you know some of the people you hired used to work at a company that hasn't paid out it's debts. You mind picking up the tab?
edit: one of the stupidest conclusions I've ever seen someone jump to in my entire life.
The only stupid conclusion is yours. If a company buys another company they get all of their debts as well, just from what I understand Blizzard didn't actually buy IPL, they bought all the workers and assets.
yeah sounds like f1 this, you buy a team for £1 but take on its responsibility. if its a blizzz owned thing now, as in . .they really own it then its blizz debt
On August 12 2013 03:52 partydude89 wrote: so since blizzard hired the IPL guys, does this mean that blizzard has to pay out the prize money?
ROFL, hey blizzard, you know some of the people you hired used to work at a company that hasn't paid out it's debts. You mind picking up the tab?
edit: one of the stupidest conclusions I've ever seen someone jump to in my entire life.
The only stupid conclusion is yours. If a company buys another company they get all of their debts as well, just from what I understand Blizzard didn't actually buy IPL, they bought all the workers and assets.
...which is exactly what he aid. If Blizzard hires former IPL employees, it is quite retarded to presume they take over IPL's debts.
On August 12 2013 18:12 StatixEx wrote: yeah sounds like f1 this, you buy a team for £1 but take on its responsibility. if its a blizzz owned thing now, as in . .they really own it then its blizz debt
It's not. Stop trying so hard to find reasons to hate Blizzard.
In Bulgaria there is a saying "To expect a letter from a dead man"... Seems quite fitting right here. IPL no longer exist, so basically there is no one to pay. Maybe IGN will pay the prizes, IF the players make enough noise about it, but that is in question too. Of course the players can sue them, if there is some kind of a contract... But I seriously doubt it - that's eSports we are talking about. The really scary thing is that even WCS doesn't pay. What kind of business is this, if even Blizzard can't pay the prize money.
On August 12 2013 03:52 partydude89 wrote: so since blizzard hired the IPL guys, does this mean that blizzard has to pay out the prize money?
ROFL, hey blizzard, you know some of the people you hired used to work at a company that hasn't paid out it's debts. You mind picking up the tab?
edit: one of the stupidest conclusions I've ever seen someone jump to in my entire life.
You know that depending on the country you live in, laws are different? In some of those countries, there are laws that say that when you buy over a company, you also take over their debts? Canada is not the only country in the world. I suggest you leave the PC more often or stay in school.
On August 12 2013 03:52 partydude89 wrote: so since blizzard hired the IPL guys, does this mean that blizzard has to pay out the prize money?
ROFL, hey blizzard, you know some of the people you hired used to work at a company that hasn't paid out it's debts. You mind picking up the tab?
edit: one of the stupidest conclusions I've ever seen someone jump to in my entire life.
You know that depending on the country you live in, laws are different? In some of those countries, there are laws that say that when you buy over a company, you also take over their debts? Canada is not the only country in the world. I suggest you leave the PC more often or stay in school.
Thank you for your input.
Think you missed the sarcasm there. Also Blizzard never bought IPL, they only bought it's assets. Just like when someone buy your car he doesn't own yourself or your debt.
On August 12 2013 03:52 partydude89 wrote: so since blizzard hired the IPL guys, does this mean that blizzard has to pay out the prize money?
ROFL, hey blizzard, you know some of the people you hired used to work at a company that hasn't paid out it's debts. You mind picking up the tab?
edit: one of the stupidest conclusions I've ever seen someone jump to in my entire life.
You know that depending on the country you live in, laws are different? In some of those countries, there are laws that say that when you buy over a company, you also take over their debts? Canada is not the only country in the world. I suggest you leave the PC more often or stay in school.
Thank you for your input.
Think you missed the sarcasm there. Also Blizzard never bought IPL, they only bought it's assets. Just like when someone buy your car he doesn't own yourself or your debt.
Actually, In Sweden, if you buy a car that has debts like loans and stuff they will pass over to you, hence why you really need to check up on the car before you buy it.
On August 12 2013 03:52 partydude89 wrote: so since blizzard hired the IPL guys, does this mean that blizzard has to pay out the prize money?
ROFL, hey blizzard, you know some of the people you hired used to work at a company that hasn't paid out it's debts. You mind picking up the tab?
edit: one of the stupidest conclusions I've ever seen someone jump to in my entire life.
You know that depending on the country you live in, laws are different? In some of those countries, there are laws that say that when you buy over a company, you also take over their debts? Canada is not the only country in the world. I suggest you leave the PC more often or stay in school.
Thank you for your input.
Think you missed the sarcasm there. Also Blizzard never bought IPL, they only bought it's assets. Just like when someone buy your car he doesn't own yourself or your debt.
The car one is a bad example, because if you buy a car that hasn't had the encumbrance from a loan company taken off of it, you are stuck with the loan, in most countries anyway. Will obviously vary pending on country.
You can also buy a company with out taking on its debt. You just separate the company into two, put all the debt against one, and buy the company that has no debt. It's not generally done because the owners of the company that still has all the debt now have no assets. But it's one way of stopping a company incurring MORE debt and getting as much as you can for the assets that the company did own (mainly the people in this case).
Not that it sounds like blizzard did that.
With out seeing it, you also don't know if the prize money was owed by IPL or if it was owed by IGN.
And everyone saying they should go hire a solicitor / lawyer... depending on the amount of money you are trying to recover, the amount of costs (i.e. solicitors bills) that you can recover will also be capped. i.e. you can't spend $20,000 trying to recover a $5,000 prize, the courts will never award you your full costs of $20,000. Most courts have the scale of fee's that you can recover outlined in their small claims court procedures relative to the sum being recovered.
It is how ever the sort of thing that the players should be banding together and uniting over, and they could use some sort of collective power to organise a boycott of the organisation if the organisation doesn't pay. Lets say some sort of players union. Like an e-Sports Federation, or a Korean e-SPorts Association.
KESPA in particular would hold some power in this as they not only have teams in SC2, but LoL and Counter Strike. Though i don't believe any of the affected players are members of KESPA teams.
If it were me, and i was the eSF i would be taking it to as many news outlets that aren't IGN, and giving player interviews and documented proof that contact has been made and IGN aren't honoring IPL's debts. That's the only real power here. A major onslaught of bad publicity for IGN to the point that advertisers won't want to be associated with them.
It all depends on the deal they made, if Bliz bought only "assets" means they are probably not responsible for IPL as a company, if IPL still exists i think it has to pay out but if it filed for bankruptcy there's no chance in seeing the money anytime soon.. Sucks for the players and should be more regulated overall.
IGN still exist, the real trouble with this is to figure out who owns the money. I am fairly sure that who ever owned IPL still can be held responsible for the debts of IPL, whether that is blizzard who bought IPL or IGN who disbandet IPL. Someone should be responsible.
On August 12 2013 21:50 JackDragon wrote: IGN still exist, the real trouble with this is to figure out who owns the money. I am fairly sure that who ever owned IPL still can be held responsible for the debts of IPL, whether that is blizzard who bought IPL or IGN who disbandet IPL. Someone should be responsible.
David Ting should be held responsible, he was the main face behind IPL (and now WCS)
On August 12 2013 21:41 IcookTacos wrote: I really hope the players will get their money, sadly I don't know how it's possible, since IGN and IPL don't really exist anymore.
And we really should find a way to make sure companies don't get away with this in the future.
On August 12 2013 21:50 JackDragon wrote: IGN still exist, the real trouble with this is to figure out who owns the money. I am fairly sure that who ever owned IPL still can be held responsible for the debts of IPL, whether that is blizzard who bought IPL or IGN who disbandet IPL. Someone should be responsible.
David Ting should be held responsible, he was the main face behind IPL (and now WCS)
On August 12 2013 04:50 Mirhi wrote: Hey guys. IGN / Ziff Davis is responsible for paying out these players. While I still worked at Blizzard I was trying to follow up on this as much as possible, but as I no longer work for Blizzard, I don't know who is handling this. I know many players, including the ones featured in this thread, followed up with me many times.
I followed up with Ziff Davis / IGN many times, but they were very slow or dodged responsibility.
The best course of action in getting these people paid is contacting Ziff Davis repeatedly / Internet justice by bringing attention to it. (Though please be professional and polite)
EDIT: I should add they HAVE paid out some players, but not others. Why this is, I do not really know. But for sure they have been very slow / tried to get it to go away.
That is not how it works. In "Someone" I mean the owner, the guy or company that is legally responsible. David Ting is in no way personally responsible for IPL not paying out.
Blizzard only hired the old IPL employes (Casters, technicians, designers Admins). I dont think they have to pay anyone. Was not their tournament, they have not set the prize money, they were not the ones who had the bad planning.
I may help to create an organization that ensures that caster-fees and prize money could be paid, before an event, maybe even transfered over to a third, neutral trusted account.
In germany, GoOdy once threatened to leave "ESL" (run by turtle entertainment) because they got behind 1-3 years with paying out prize money. The Problem is to take legal action you need to have an actual signed contract. Does this exist in e-sport for a tournament entry?
At least, with Blizzard now behind WCS, you can make sure they have the money.
Uh oh, amateur hour at IGN if they closed up shop without enough money to pay players their winnings.
It's astonishing players don't demand checks at the venue now or raise this issue much earlier. Two months is an appropriate time to make a firm demand that they pay you and send you the check number and a mailing confirmation code. Three months is appropriate to get very aggressive in tone, possibly shouting. Six months is time for a letter from a lawyer because they're not paying.
If you weren't aware, this is exactly how credit card companies and vendors will treat you if you don't pay them.
On August 12 2013 03:52 partydude89 wrote: so since blizzard hired the IPL guys, does this mean that blizzard has to pay out the prize money?
ROFL, hey blizzard, you know some of the people you hired used to work at a company that hasn't paid out it's debts. You mind picking up the tab?
edit: one of the stupidest conclusions I've ever seen someone jump to in my entire life.
You know that depending on the country you live in, laws are different? In some of those countries, there are laws that say that when you buy over a company, you also take over their debts? Canada is not the only country in the world. I suggest you leave the PC more often or stay in school.
Thank you for your input.
Except you clearly don't know what the current situation so how about reading before insulting someone? Blizzard never bought the company.
I agree with those that proposed Blizzard only purchased the human capital from IPL, with those designers, casters etc out of a job, Blizzard decided to offer them a job. Not intending to take the IPL name and restarting the tournaments with those same positions. I think if Blizzard decided to purchase IPL as a whole company they would have to take along the assets as well as the debt. Human intelligence is a intangible asset, so if you figure IPL sold those "assets" it wouldn't reduce the debt because they earn wages. Wages payable would only come to a stop. This is just my opinion but I don't think anyone is going to get paid, honestly. If a company goes bankrupt you think the shareholders get their money back. Hell no. If IPL were to sell its assets, it's the loaners who get their money back first, if any (bank loans). Everyone else is left for dead. It's unfortunate it had to happen like this but this stuff happens all the time. It's been since 2012, the money's long gone.
is there some way to blame David Kim , Dustin Browder or Incontrol for this ?
kidding aside, when Ziff-Davis bought IGN.com they made vague statements about what they were doing with IPL, but didn't bring up the 10s of thousands still owed to these players
On August 12 2013 03:59 nimdil wrote: There should be some kind of community consensus that the shitstorm starts within two months if not everything is paid or s.t.
I was thinking of a “wall of shame” topic but it would become even more obvious how much of this “industry” is just smoke and mirrors :/.
On August 13 2013 00:30 ymir233 wrote: ffs why didn't they go public immediately for this
why would you play nice with people that are dragging their feet, rip out the carpet from underneath their feet with viral public pressure
When is "immediately"? If they'd do this a week or month after the event, they'd simply be told "you'll get it soon!" and that'd be that.
I really do wish that players would be more aggressive in getting their money, though. They have earned it, and to me, this is akin to getting no pay from your boss. It's completely and utterly unacceptable, and anyone who does that should be publicly shamed and warned of.
On August 13 2013 00:30 ymir233 wrote: ffs why didn't they go public immediately for this
why would you play nice with people that are dragging their feet, rip out the carpet from underneath their feet with viral public pressure
When is "immediately"? If they'd do this a week or month after the event, they'd simply be told "you'll get it soon!" and that'd be that.
I really do wish that players would be more aggressive in getting their money, though. They have earned it, and to me, this is akin to getting no pay from your boss. It's completely and utterly unacceptable, and anyone who does that should be publicly shamed and warned of.
They could at least tweet it. It's not like a simple "haven't got my prize money from IPL yet. They say it'll be coming soon..." every time they check up wouldn't get attention from the fans they have. It's not about nagging or being miserly, it's just standard business to keep people in check.
I don't tweet, but I'm guessing if people have time to say stuff like "haha gogogogo MC" or w/e they also have time to tweet about important updates.
On August 13 2013 00:30 ymir233 wrote: ffs why didn't they go public immediately for this
why would you play nice with people that are dragging their feet, rip out the carpet from underneath their feet with viral public pressure
Do you know hard that is?
Really difficult. I'm currently in the process of arbitration against a new car dealer, and it is a difficult and stressful process. Much easier to believe someone over the phone/email who tells you "yeah, the money will be sent soon" then to get into it with them.
Nothing is ever black and white, people try to muddy the waters to hide the truth, and it's hard work trying to make them clean.
On August 13 2013 00:30 ymir233 wrote: ffs why didn't they go public immediately for this
why would you play nice with people that are dragging their feet, rip out the carpet from underneath their feet with viral public pressure
I don't think going public is necessarily the best way. But as usual, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, such as Scarlett getting paid after bugging David Ting about it from the OP. DRG and Leenock never say anything and they don't get paid.
I'm shocked they haven't gone to their team managers or ESF to help them.
This is disgusting. Dont blame the players as if this is their fault...didnt DRG say he asked many times already? Who is responsible for that tournament?
On August 13 2013 02:13 Canucklehead wrote: Terrible to hear leenock hasn't be paid either. The winner should always be paid first before all others!
the private contractors who helped make the show possible should be paid first. please see post 4 up from here.
I mean in terms of prize money. People like scarlett got paid ahead of leenock, though she had to work for that money by pestering david ting on twitter a bunch.
On August 13 2013 02:13 Canucklehead wrote: Terrible to hear leenock hasn't be paid either. The winner should always be paid first before all others!
the private contractors who helped make the show possible should be paid first. please see post 4 up from here.
I mean in terms of prize money. People like scarlett got paid ahead of leenock, though she had to work for that money by pestering david ting on twitter a bunch.
true, not exactly the right way to run a league. the fact that the squeekiest wheels are the ones getting paid makes IPL look like scum buckets.
Though it may seem "unfair", its common that you pay the least amount of debt first, working your way up, I'm sure they would rather make more people happy rather than pull 40k out of their ass to pay one person. Business is business ethical or not. People need to stop sucking Leenock's dick and get to the real matter. Where Is the money, how much, and who has accounts receivable with IPL on that listing.
I don't see why anyone should blame David Ting for this.
I talked to him this morning myself and I'm very appreciative that the man, who no longer has any affiliation with IGN or Ziff Davis, is repeatedly stepping in on behalf of players and staff in efforts to rectify past situations.
On August 13 2013 02:27 nuogaiyen wrote: Though it may seem "unfair", its common that you pay the least amount of debt first, working your way up, I'm sure they would rather make more people happy rather than pull 40k out of their ass to pay one person. Business is business ethical or not. People need to stop sucking Leenock's dick and get to the real matter. Where Is the money, how much, and who has accounts receivable with IPL on that listing.
I wouldn't even argue "fairness". Leenock is pretty popular. Not paying Leenock can get a lot of people quite upset. Ex: unknown pro owed 1,000 vs unknown pro owed 5,000. Definitely pay unknown pro who is owed 1,000 first.
Take a well-known pro and the variables have changed.
BUT, I suspect IPL filed for bankruptcy. In which case, I know zilch about bankruptcy laws.
On August 12 2013 03:52 partydude89 wrote: so since blizzard hired the IPL guys, does this mean that blizzard has to pay out the prize money?
ROFL, hey blizzard, you know some of the people you hired used to work at a company that hasn't paid out it's debts. You mind picking up the tab?
edit: one of the stupidest conclusions I've ever seen someone jump to in my entire life.
its actually not a stupid question. there are a details that need to be known but legally the liability of blizzard is possible under corporate law if blizz acquired IPL via an M&A...
On August 13 2013 02:13 Canucklehead wrote: Terrible to hear leenock hasn't be paid either. The winner should always be paid first before all others!
the private contractors who helped make the show possible should be paid first. please see post 4 up from here.
I mean in terms of prize money. People like scarlett got paid ahead of leenock, though she had to work for that money by pestering david ting on twitter a bunch.
true, not exactly the right way to run a league. the fact that the squeekiest wheels are the ones getting paid makes IPL look like scum buckets.
While i think what is going on is wrong, sometimes you have to freaking squeek for your stuff, if you expect others doing it for you, good luck.
On August 13 2013 02:27 nuogaiyen wrote: Though it may seem "unfair", its common that you pay the least amount of debt first, working your way up, I'm sure they would rather make more people happy rather than pull 40k out of their ass to pay one person.
That's not true. There's a priority list of creditors who are to be paid first when a company goes under/bankrupt. It's not based on paying the least amount of debt first. It just so happens prize money winners are very far down the priority list so they're some of the last people to be paid. You're going to tell me a company is going to pay off a bunch of small debts over paying off secured creditors first who are owed more? According to your logic they would. Screw secured creditors. They're owed too much. Must pay off the least amount of debt first and work our way up! Gotta make 10 people happy over 1 secured creditor! Sorry, but that's not how it works in the real world.
On August 13 2013 02:27 nuogaiyen wrote: Though it may seem "unfair", its common that you pay the least amount of debt first, working your way up, I'm sure they would rather make more people happy rather than pull 40k out of their ass to pay one person.
That's not true. There's a priority list of creditors who are to be paid first when a company goes under/bankrupt. It's not based on paying the least amount of debt first. It just so happens prize money winners are very far down the priority list so they're some of the last people to be paid. You're going to tell me a company is going to pay off a bunch of small debts over paying off secured creditors first who are owed more?
This is an important point.
Relatedly, does anyone know if gamers receive any sort of assurances other than verbal promises regarding the terms and conditions of tournaments they enter? It may be the case that these poor kids have little or no legal recourse to claim their prizes.
On August 13 2013 02:27 nuogaiyen wrote: Though it may seem "unfair", its common that you pay the least amount of debt first, working your way up, I'm sure they would rather make more people happy rather than pull 40k out of their ass to pay one person.
That's not true. There's a priority list of creditors who are to be paid first when a company goes under/bankrupt. It's not based on paying the least amount of debt first. It just so happens prize money winners are very far down the priority list so they're some of the last people to be paid. You're going to tell me a company is going to pay off a bunch of small debts over paying off secured creditors first who are owed more?
This is an important point.
Relatedly, does anyone know if gamers receive any sort of assurances other than verbal promises regarding the terms and conditions of tournaments they enter? It may be the case that these poor kids have little or no legal recourse to claim their prizes.
I assume there's some sort of player contract when they sign up... right?
On August 12 2013 03:52 partydude89 wrote: so since blizzard hired the IPL guys, does this mean that blizzard has to pay out the prize money?
ROFL, hey blizzard, you know some of the people you hired used to work at a company that hasn't paid out it's debts. You mind picking up the tab?
edit: one of the stupidest conclusions I've ever seen someone jump to in my entire life.
Was that edit really necessary? I'm not a legal guy by any means, and i wasn't sure what happens to a companies debt when it gets absorbed by another company. no need to call me stupid
you do realize that IPL isnt really a company right? IPL stands for IGN ProLeague; its just an event put on by IGN IGN is NOT out of business and bought/absorbed by blizzard. im not a legal guy either, but this is just putting 2and2 together.
On August 13 2013 02:27 nuogaiyen wrote: Though it may seem "unfair", its common that you pay the least amount of debt first, working your way up, I'm sure they would rather make more people happy rather than pull 40k out of their ass to pay one person.
That's not true. There's a priority list of creditors who are to be paid first when a company goes under/bankrupt. It's not based on paying the least amount of debt first. It just so happens prize money winners are very far down the priority list so they're some of the last people to be paid. You're going to tell me a company is going to pay off a bunch of small debts over paying off secured creditors first who are owed more?
This is an important point.
Relatedly, does anyone know if gamers receive any sort of assurances other than verbal promises regarding the terms and conditions of tournaments they enter? It may be the case that these poor kids have little or no legal recourse to claim their prizes.
Some people may not know this but verbal agreements are actually legally binding. The reason why people usually go for written ones is that they are easier to prove in court. I doubt their would be a problem with the prize money of a tournament since there were so many people that were witnesses to the promise of a prize.
On August 13 2013 02:27 nuogaiyen wrote: Though it may seem "unfair", its common that you pay the least amount of debt first, working your way up, I'm sure they would rather make more people happy rather than pull 40k out of their ass to pay one person.
That's not true. There's a priority list of creditors who are to be paid first when a company goes under/bankrupt. It's not based on paying the least amount of debt first. It just so happens prize money winners are very far down the priority list so they're some of the last people to be paid. You're going to tell me a company is going to pay off a bunch of small debts over paying off secured creditors first who are owed more? According to your logic they would. Screw secured creditors. They're owed too much. Must pay off the least amount of debt first and work our way up! Gotta make 10 people happy over 1 secured creditor! Sorry, but that's not how it works in the real world.
Yes, but you still need to represent that you have a claim. If you don’t make one, no on knows it is out there. There is a pecking order in who gets paid and I have no idea where prize money works into it that, but it is likely not first or even second in line.
On August 13 2013 03:42 Avean wrote: Its a bit worrying considering the prizes in SC2 are very little compared to games like Dota 2 where millions of $ are given out.
Once a year and it has nothing to do with the subject or the state of SC2.
On August 12 2013 03:52 partydude89 wrote: so since blizzard absorbed IPL, does this mean that blizzard has to pay out the prize money?
No. IGN is still a company and owes the debt, while IPL assets like staff, technicians, equipment were bought by Blizzard, but they are not viable for the debt.
it depends on the contract of course but most likely it's blizzard that owes the money. When you buy up anything you usually buy up its debts as well. If you buy a house as a private individual you are also the one who owes any outstanding bank fees or debts. Which is why buying the "1 dollar houses" without proper lawyer assessment is so risky.
On August 13 2013 02:27 nuogaiyen wrote: Though it may seem "unfair", its common that you pay the least amount of debt first, working your way up, I'm sure they would rather make more people happy rather than pull 40k out of their ass to pay one person.
That's not true. There's a priority list of creditors who are to be paid first when a company goes under/bankrupt. It's not based on paying the least amount of debt first. It just so happens prize money winners are very far down the priority list so they're some of the last people to be paid. You're going to tell me a company is going to pay off a bunch of small debts over paying off secured creditors first who are owed more? According to your logic they would. Screw secured creditors. They're owed too much. Must pay off the least amount of debt first and work our way up! Gotta make 10 people happy over 1 secured creditor! Sorry, but that's not how it works in the real world.
Thanks for repeating what I said on the initial post on page 14, 3rd post. This is assuming all creditors are paid. Please don't talk to me like I'm some retard.
On August 13 2013 00:08 nuogaiyen wrote: I agree with those that proposed Blizzard only purchased the human capital from IPL, with those designers, casters etc out of a job, Blizzard decided to offer them a job. Not intending to take the IPL name and restarting the tournaments with those same positions. I think if Blizzard decided to purchase IPL as a whole company they would have to take along the assets as well as the debt. Human intelligence is a intangible asset, so if you figure IPL sold those "assets" it wouldn't reduce the debt because they earn wages. Wages payable would only come to a stop. This is just my opinion but I don't think anyone is going to get paid, honestly. If a company goes bankrupt you think the shareholders get their money back. Hell no. If IPL were to sell its assets, it's the loaners who get their money back first, if any (bank loans). Everyone else is left for dead. It's unfortunate it had to happen like this but this stuff happens all the time. It's been since 2012, the money's long gone.
Most of you are probably too young to remember, but this is sadly common in the e-sports scene. I've been following esports for 10+ yrs, since cs 1.6. And the CPL(google it) screwed several high-profile teams when they went out of business. Held their biggest event ever, then went out of business(sound familiar) It's part of the game, and while unfair organizations like KESPA are the anwser IMHO.
On August 13 2013 04:22 1Dhalism wrote: it depends on the contract of course but most likely it's blizzard that owes the money. When you buy up anything you usually buy up its debts as well. If you buy a house as a private individual you are also the one who owes any outstanding bank fees or debts. Which is why buying the "1 dollar houses" without proper lawyer assessment is so risky.
This has been repeated many times in this thread already, but Blizzard didn't buy IPL. They bought IPL's assets (equipment) and hired IGN employees that worked on IPL. As far as I know, they did not acquire the IPL branding, which in theory still belongs to IGN.
If I buy a computer from some guy on eBay, I do not inherit the guy's debts. If I hire some staff, I do not inherit the debts owed by the staff's previous employer.
Speculation: IPL may not even be considered an entity legally, it would just be a brand that belongs to IGN. Any IPL related contracts would be between IGN and a third-party.
David Ting @dting888 6m The guys @ign are investigating IPL matters urgently and will be in touch with those affected asap. Please direct questions to @willguyatt
Hope this clears up that this is IGN's problem and not Blizzard's.
Pretty sure IPL was not an enity. You can look through the list of owned/sold properties from Ziff Davis and IPL is not listed anywhere. IPL is just a name, IGN is the legal entity behind it. The company that bought Ziff Davis is still running IGN, so they're the ones who incur IGN's debts. They fired everyone related to IPL after they bought IGN.
And Ziff Davis only filed for bankruptcy protection back in 2008. That's a while ago. So all this talk about paying creditors first makes no sense. They never had to liquidate Ziff Davis Media, which owned IGN. Plus all of that happened 3 years before IPL was even a thing.
David Ting @dting888 6m The guys @ign are investigating IPL matters urgently and will be in touch with those affected asap. Please direct questions to @willguyatt
Hope this clears up that this is IGN's problem and not Blizzard's.
Glad to see ting getting the ball rolling. The most interesting thing would none of this happened if not for the DRG tweet? Seems surprising that with a lot of foreigners like huk and snute unpaid as well, that they didn't light this fire first. Well if that DRG tweet ends up getting everyone paid, all hail DRG!
David Ting @dting888 6m The guys @ign are investigating IPL matters urgently and will be in touch with those affected asap. Please direct questions to @willguyatt
Hope this clears up that this is IGN's problem and not Blizzard's.
Glad to see ting getting the ball rolling. The most interesting thing would none of this happened if not for the DRG tweet? Seems surprising that with a lot of foreigners like huk and snute unpaid as well, that they didn't light this fire first. Well if that DRG tweet ends up getting everyone paid, all hail DRG!
If DRG's tweet ends up causing everyone to get paid, I hope people feel encouraged to bring these problems to public sooner, and not wait a whole year for it
Perhaps it is worthwhile to consider adding to the Liquipedia page of every tournament (next to that table with the payouts) dates and/or indications of whether or not the player has been paid. The player could either edit the page or just let a Liquipedia volunteer know (or the manager or whoever is in a position to know these things) so that there is some visibility into it. I think it would also create some public accountability.
On August 13 2013 09:40 kawaiiryuko wrote: Perhaps it is worthwhile to consider adding to the Liquipedia page of every tournament (next to that table with the payouts) dates and/or indications of whether or not the player has been paid. The player could either edit the page or just let a Liquipedia volunteer know (or the manager or whoever is in a position to know these things) so that there is some visibility into it. I think it would also create some public accountability.
I don't think that would be a great idea, just because tournaments don't pay out immidiately, at least most don't some are a bit different and do pay out immidiately.
On August 13 2013 09:40 kawaiiryuko wrote: Perhaps it is worthwhile to consider adding to the Liquipedia page of every tournament (next to that table with the payouts) dates and/or indications of whether or not the player has been paid. The player could either edit the page or just let a Liquipedia volunteer know (or the manager or whoever is in a position to know these things) so that there is some visibility into it. I think it would also create some public accountability.
i think this is a great idea. if IPL were still holding tournaments, then players would know that they would be risking waiting for a year for potential winnings, which would effect the cost-benefit analysis of attending it in the first place. tournaments then would have a positive reason to pay in a timely manner (say, within 1 month or even straight away), rather than a negative reason (1 year later and bad press).
On August 13 2013 02:27 nuogaiyen wrote: Though it may seem "unfair", its common that you pay the least amount of debt first, working your way up, I'm sure they would rather make more people happy rather than pull 40k out of their ass to pay one person. Business is business ethical or not. People need to stop sucking Leenock's dick and get to the real matter. Where Is the money, how much, and who has accounts receivable with IPL on that listing.
This is untrue. Let's not talk about bankruptcy because that's not what happened. But for a failing business, normally you prioritize by who's going to be the most pissed off. Normally that is vendors because they know what they're doing and they will shout and threaten to sue if they're not paid.
It's unfortunate these players aren't pushing harder because that makes them fall farther down the priority list. Now that they're complaining, they're finally being considered for payment. It is a disgrace that the response is "I'm looking into it", not "I'm sending a check out Next Day Air, I'll e-mail you the FedEx code and check number". It's been a long time. I don't think it's the players' "fault" they're not being paid, but this is unfortunately one of the reasons they say "nice guys finish last".
On August 13 2013 09:40 kawaiiryuko wrote: Perhaps it is worthwhile to consider adding to the Liquipedia page of every tournament (next to that table with the payouts) dates and/or indications of whether or not the player has been paid. The player could either edit the page or just let a Liquipedia volunteer know (or the manager or whoever is in a position to know these things) so that there is some visibility into it. I think it would also create some public accountability.
I don't think that would be a great idea, just because tournaments don't pay out immidiately, at least most don't some are a bit different and do pay out immidiately.
What? Those giant checks aren't real? Damn. (Some other competitions (outside esports) do actually make the giant novelty checks legally cashable - what makes a check legal is remarkably basic and anything beyond that is up to the bank holding the accounts. It's possible for a check to be entirely handwritten, although it's exceedingly rare.)
On August 13 2013 09:40 kawaiiryuko wrote: Perhaps it is worthwhile to consider adding to the Liquipedia page of every tournament (next to that table with the payouts) dates and/or indications of whether or not the player has been paid. The player could either edit the page or just let a Liquipedia volunteer know (or the manager or whoever is in a position to know these things) so that there is some visibility into it. I think it would also create some public accountability.
Aren't they just collecting a bit of interest on the side before they pay?
I don't think that would be a great idea, just because tournaments don't pay out immidiately, at least most don't some are a bit different and do pay out immidiately.
People can judge if 6 months delay is acceptable or not. Adding this to LP would maybe raise awareness, that tournament quality is not just production and line up etc. Personally I find it wrong to host seasonal tournaments, when you fail to pay out the recent winners in time for the new season. It just smells of bad organisation.
as much as I personally resent MLG for dropping SC2, at least they were efficient and smart enough to ensure that every player gets paid to prevent this messy disorganization.
can't really blame MLG for dropping sc2. gotta remember MLG was paying blizzard to host those tournaments while other game companies paid MLG to host. if anything blame blizzard for being greedy with there license. its not a coincidence that the free moba games are taking over esports
On August 14 2013 05:09 JimSocks wrote: can't really blame MLG for dropping sc2. gotta remember MLG was paying blizzard to host those tournaments while other game companies paid MLG to host. if anything blame blizzard for being greedy with there license. its not a coincidence that the free moba games are taking over esports
Apparently MLG was not paying Blizzard according to Incontrol on Inside The Game this was told to him by Blizzard.
On August 14 2013 05:09 JimSocks wrote: can't really blame MLG for dropping sc2. gotta remember MLG was paying blizzard to host those tournaments while other game companies paid MLG to host. if anything blame blizzard for being greedy with there license. its not a coincidence that the free moba games are taking over esports
Apparently MLG was not paying Blizzard according to Incontrol on Inside The Game this was told to him by Blizzard.
the simple fact is , the "live gate" for an MLG weekend event is lousy. This is why SC2 is no longer part of MLG. MLG went from 6 to 4 to 3 weekend events. It'll be interesting to see how many they have next year.
the "live gate" for IPLs were crap too. if it were good IGN.com would've kept it.
On August 14 2013 05:09 JimSocks wrote: can't really blame MLG for dropping sc2. gotta remember MLG was paying blizzard to host those tournaments while other game companies paid MLG to host. if anything blame blizzard for being greedy with there license. its not a coincidence that the free moba games are taking over esports
Apparently MLG was not paying Blizzard according to Incontrol on Inside The Game this was told to him by Blizzard.
the simple fact is , the "live gate" for an MLG weekend event is lousy. This is why SC2 is no longer part of MLG. MLG went from 6 to 4 to 3 weekend events. It'll be interesting to see how many they have next year.
the "live gate" for IPLs were crap too. if it were good IGN.com would've kept it.
Alright, to be fair they don't exactly pick the best areas to hold these events. Raleigh? Columbus? Really?
Now I know it's probably far more expensive to hold it in a major city like New York, Miami, Los Angeles ect... but why not go back to Providence? SC2 fans from Boston, Hartford and beyond went. I'm sure a lot of NY went too. I'd go if they brought it back to Providence even though I live in NH and despise driving in Massachusetts.
I'm sure there is other places that bring in big live gates too, but instead they head down to Columbus
On August 14 2013 05:09 JimSocks wrote: can't really blame MLG for dropping sc2. gotta remember MLG was paying blizzard to host those tournaments while other game companies paid MLG to host. if anything blame blizzard for being greedy with there license. its not a coincidence that the free moba games are taking over esports
Apparently MLG was not paying Blizzard according to Incontrol on Inside The Game this was told to him by Blizzard.
the simple fact is , the "live gate" for an MLG weekend event is lousy. This is why SC2 is no longer part of MLG. MLG went from 6 to 4 to 3 weekend events. It'll be interesting to see how many they have next year.
the "live gate" for IPLs were crap too. if it were good IGN.com would've kept it.
Alright, to be fair they don't exactly pick the best areas to hold these events. Raleigh? Columbus? Really?
Now I know it's probably far more expensive to hold it in a major city like New York, Miami, Los Angeles ect... but why not go back to Providence? SC2 fans from Boston, Hartford and beyond went. I'm sure a lot of NY went too. I'd go if they brought it back to Providence even though I live in NH and despise driving in Massachusetts.
I'm sure there is other places that bring in big live gates too, but instead they head down to Columbus
yeah this is what I dislike about MLG... Why u keep going back same places??
Colombus/Raleigh?? srsly?? I mean Anaheim's fine cause its basically L.A. but why not Boston/N.Y.C./Toronto/Seattle/K.C./Houston?
I dont know how much it would cost them to change the venues from year to year but it could give MLG better exposure... Maybe try something?
( not on subject, why do you despise drving in Mass? )
On August 14 2013 05:09 JimSocks wrote: can't really blame MLG for dropping sc2. gotta remember MLG was paying blizzard to host those tournaments while other game companies paid MLG to host. if anything blame blizzard for being greedy with there license. its not a coincidence that the free moba games are taking over esports
Apparently MLG was not paying Blizzard according to Incontrol on Inside The Game this was told to him by Blizzard.
the simple fact is , the "live gate" for an MLG weekend event is lousy. This is why SC2 is no longer part of MLG. MLG went from 6 to 4 to 3 weekend events. It'll be interesting to see how many they have next year.
the "live gate" for IPLs were crap too. if it were good IGN.com would've kept it.
Alright, to be fair they don't exactly pick the best areas to hold these events. Raleigh? Columbus? Really?
Now I know it's probably far more expensive to hold it in a major city like New York, Miami, Los Angeles ect... but why not go back to Providence? SC2 fans from Boston, Hartford and beyond went. I'm sure a lot of NY went too. I'd go if they brought it back to Providence even though I live in NH and despise driving in Massachusetts.
I'm sure there is other places that bring in big live gates too, but instead they head down to Columbus
yeah this is what I dislike about MLG... Why u keep going back same places??
Colombus/Raleigh?? srsly?? I mean Anaheim's fine cause its basically L.A. but why not Boston/N.Y.C./Toronto/Seattle/K.C./Houston?
I dont know how much it would cost them to change the venues from year to year but it could give MLG better exposure... Maybe try something?
( not on subject, why do you despise drving in Mass? )
You'd actually be surprised how few venues could host an event like a MLG weekend. That's a lot of space and connection types needed. If anyone remembers the internet problems they had at some of the 2011 events, that's kind of the same deal. Most convention centers don't have the connection infrastructure to support what they're up to.
On August 14 2013 05:09 JimSocks wrote: can't really blame MLG for dropping sc2. gotta remember MLG was paying blizzard to host those tournaments while other game companies paid MLG to host. if anything blame blizzard for being greedy with there license. its not a coincidence that the free moba games are taking over esports
Apparently MLG was not paying Blizzard according to Incontrol on Inside The Game this was told to him by Blizzard.
the simple fact is , the "live gate" for an MLG weekend event is lousy. This is why SC2 is no longer part of MLG. MLG went from 6 to 4 to 3 weekend events. It'll be interesting to see how many they have next year.
the "live gate" for IPLs were crap too. if it were good IGN.com would've kept it.
Alright, to be fair they don't exactly pick the best areas to hold these events. Raleigh? Columbus? Really?
Now I know it's probably far more expensive to hold it in a major city like New York, Miami, Los Angeles ect... but why not go back to Providence? SC2 fans from Boston, Hartford and beyond went. I'm sure a lot of NY went too. I'd go if they brought it back to Providence even though I live in NH and despise driving in Massachusetts.
I'm sure there is other places that bring in big live gates too, but instead they head down to Columbus
yeah this is what I dislike about MLG... Why u keep going back same places??
Colombus/Raleigh?? srsly?? I mean Anaheim's fine cause its basically L.A. but why not Boston/N.Y.C./Toronto/Seattle/K.C./Houston?
I dont know how much it would cost them to change the venues from year to year but it could give MLG better exposure... Maybe try something?
( not on subject, why do you despise drving in Mass? )
You'd actually be surprised how few venues could host an event like a MLG weekend. That's a lot of space and connection types needed. If anyone remembers the internet problems they had at some of the 2011 events, that's kind of the same deal. Most convention centers don't have the connection infrastructure to support what they're up to.
And that's before scheduling issues.
I would say that it is worth to go back to the same place again just for the familiarity. You know how the venue is sett up, how stable the connection, how close to the venue hotels and such are. there is much more to it then just "try to get it out live to as many fans as possible".
On August 14 2013 05:09 JimSocks wrote: can't really blame MLG for dropping sc2. gotta remember MLG was paying blizzard to host those tournaments while other game companies paid MLG to host. if anything blame blizzard for being greedy with there license. its not a coincidence that the free moba games are taking over esports
Apparently MLG was not paying Blizzard according to Incontrol on Inside The Game this was told to him by Blizzard.
the simple fact is , the "live gate" for an MLG weekend event is lousy. This is why SC2 is no longer part of MLG. MLG went from 6 to 4 to 3 weekend events. It'll be interesting to see how many they have next year.
the "live gate" for IPLs were crap too. if it were good IGN.com would've kept it.
Alright, to be fair they don't exactly pick the best areas to hold these events. Raleigh? Columbus? Really?
Now I know it's probably far more expensive to hold it in a major city like New York, Miami, Los Angeles ect... but why not go back to Providence? SC2 fans from Boston, Hartford and beyond went. I'm sure a lot of NY went too. I'd go if they brought it back to Providence even though I live in NH and despise driving in Massachusetts.
I'm sure there is other places that bring in big live gates too, but instead they head down to Columbus
yeah this is what I dislike about MLG... Why u keep going back same places??
Colombus/Raleigh?? srsly?? I mean Anaheim's fine cause its basically L.A. but why not Boston/N.Y.C./Toronto/Seattle/K.C./Houston?
I dont know how much it would cost them to change the venues from year to year but it could give MLG better exposure... Maybe try something?
( not on subject, why do you despise drving in Mass? )
Big cities are also expensive. Best thing to do is find a cheap place within a 2 hour drive of a big urban centre.
MLG went to Toronto and never came back. They made a big mistake holding it at the Metro Toronto Convention Centre. Rent is like a million dollars an hour there. They probably did not generate enough revenue relative to the costs.
NASL did it right by going to the much less expensive Mississauga and calling it "Toronto". Live event promoters like to go to Mississauga's Hershey Centre and promote that they are headed to "Toronto". Its a good strategy.
MLG - Mississauga. sounds great eh?
If SC2 eSports is a profit centre then a live event promoter will fill the void that NASL, IPL and MLG have created.
Sasquatch @coL_Sasquatch @SaintSnorlax @MVPDongRaeGu no I think IGN still pays it, atleast they did for Scarlett... she just had to message @dting888 a bunch
How fucking awkward is that, having to spam someone with messages just to get paid, when they are already way behind on paying? If anything, they should actively contact and reassure the players in question that they are aware of this and working on it.
On October 17 2013 21:31 Topdoller wrote: Although i dont know nothing about American Law can they not initiate legal action against IGN. There must be some way for him to get his prize money?
I believe that this could be considered fraud if they never pay him.
From what I can tell, the prosecution would rip IGN a new one if this ever went to court.
On October 17 2013 21:37 Caladan wrote: That's really bad PR for IGN. They show how shady they are and what E-Sports means to them.
I will be boycotting IGN until this is resolved. Feel free to do the same.
this is a tragic-comedy.
where are all those IPL supporters when i said IPL would never hold another big event i got flamed into hell. he who laughs last laughs best. sad for the contractors though...
thinking aloud here...i wonder if IGN is actively trying to claim that Blizzard owes the money because Blizz bought some "IPL assets"? http://ca.ign.com/articles/2013/04/08/blizzard-buys-ign-pro-league somewhat misleading opening line : "Blizzard has purchased IGN Pro League" i do not think IGN will attempt any trickery with Blizz though, because they'll end up taking on ATVI. ZD is big, but not big enough to take on ATVI on an issue where they are at fault.
i never liked David Ting, but i didn't realize he was this much of a snake. not paying IPL contractors while he was still working for IGN/IPL is just bad.
it isn't just the prize winners who still have yet to be paid.
On October 17 2013 21:31 Topdoller wrote: Although i dont know nothing about American Law can they not initiate legal action against IGN. There must be some way for him to get his prize money?
I believe that this could be considered fraud if they never pay him.
It depends on the contract that the players signed. If they signed a contract that the winner will be payed X amount in Y time, IGN would be in breach of contract and the injured parties can seek restitution. I'd ask Plansix, that guy knows a lot about law.
On October 17 2013 21:37 Caladan wrote: That's really bad PR for IGN. They show how shady they are and what E-Sports means to them.
I will be boycotting IGN until this is resolved. Feel free to do the same.
this is a tragic-comedy.
where are all those IPL supporters when i said IPL would never hold another big event i got flamed into hell. he who laughs last laughs best. sad for the contractors though...
i never liked David Kim, but i didn't realize he was this much of a snake. not paying IPL contractors while he was still working for IGN/IPL is just bad.
it isn't just the prize winners who still have yet to be paid.
On October 18 2013 02:48 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i never liked David Kim, but i didn't realize he was this much of a snake. not paying IPL contractors while he was still working for IGN/IPL is just bad.
What on earth makes you think David Kim has anything to do with this?
On October 17 2013 21:37 Caladan wrote: That's really bad PR for IGN. They show how shady they are and what E-Sports means to them.
I will be boycotting IGN until this is resolved. Feel free to do the same.
this is a tragic-comedy.
where are all those IPL supporters when i said IPL would never hold another big event i got flamed into hell. he who laughs last laughs best. sad for the contractors though...
i never liked David Ting, but i didn't realize he was this much of a snake. not paying IPL contractors while he was still working for IGN/IPL is just bad.
it isn't just the prize winners who still have yet to be paid.
On October 18 2013 02:48 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i never liked David Kim, but i didn't realize he was this much of a snake. not paying IPL contractors while he was still working for IGN/IPL is just bad.
What on earth makes you think David Kim has anything to do with this?
On October 17 2013 21:31 Topdoller wrote: Although i dont know nothing about American Law can they not initiate legal action against IGN. There must be some way for him to get his prize money?
I believe that this could be considered fraud if they never pay him.
It depends on the contract that the players signed. If they signed a contract that the winner will be payed X amount in Y time, IGN would be in breach of contract and the injured parties can seek restitution. I'd ask Plansix, that guy knows a lot about law.
The problem is that I will bet you whatever contract the players agreed to was with an entity IPL was housed in, separately from IGN, and IPL doesn't exist anymore. It has no assets. So even if the player has a claim (it would be for some type of breach of contract), and even if the IPL entity still exists, you could sue it and win and still get nothing, because there's probably nothing to get. And Blizzard did not purchase IPL; they purchased the ASSETS of IPL. So the liability to Leenock is still with IPL. Neither is IGN liable, unless again, IPL was housed in the same entity that owns the general IGN assets, which is extremely, extremely unlikely. What Leenock would have needed to do is initiate a lawsuit against IPL BEFORE the sale to Blizzard and then he'd have some options once IPL tried to sell all of their assets to Blizzard (or against the cash IPL got in the sale). I'd bet that Leenock has no effective legal recourse; his best bet would be to publicize the issue and hope that IGN pays him just to make the bad PR go away.
EPT
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