EPTWSL (Women Starcraft II League) about to start - Page 8
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Khai
Australia551 Posts
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nerak
Brazil256 Posts
The reason why women and men are segregated in sports isn't misoginy. It's that women have not the same biology/phisiology men have. In martial arts, competitors are segregated by size/weight. Same thing. It would be rather weird if I was 400 pounds heavy and for any (potentially legitimate) personal reason I said I wanted to compete with the 140 pounds competitors. Women have different abilities than men in mathemathics/strategy games. I'm not saying I play better than BarbiePrime or calculate better than Marie Curie. I'm saying women in general are biologically less efficient in some things, just as men are in other things. (If this biological differences are caused by genetics or culture, that's an interesting question but not the point here at all) That's why different sexes are "segregated" in competition. Scarlett isn't biologically different of Idra or Huk, but she's biologically different from BarbiePrime and MsSpyte. Letting Scarlett join a Woman's league defeats the purpose of a segregated league's existence. (If anyone can prove women in general do not have a harder time with mathemathics than men do, I'll be honestly open minded/hopeful about it) | ||
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iMAniaC
Norway703 Posts
On August 08 2013 02:33 nerak wrote: Trans women do not play with other women in athletism. The reason why women and men are segregated in sports isn't misoginy. It's that women have not the same biology/phisiology men have. In martial arts, competitors are segregated by size/weight. Same thing. It would be rather weird if I was 400 pounds heavy and for any (potentially legitimate) personal reason I said I wanted to compete with the 140 pounds competitors. Women have different abilities than men in mathemathics/strategy games. I'm not saying I play better than BarbiePrime or calculate better than Marie Curie. I'm saying women in general are biologically less efficient in some things, just as men are in other things. (If this biological differences are caused by genetics or culture, that's an interesting question but not the point here at all) That's why different sexes are "segregated" in competition. Scarlett isn't biologically different of Idra or Huk, but she's biologically different from BarbiePrime and MsSpyte. Letting Scarlett join a Woman's league defeats the purpose of a segregated league's existence. (If anyone can prove women in general do not have a harder time with mathemathics than men do, I'll be honestly open minded/hopeful about it) To be honest, I don't think any of us know to what extent Scarlett is different from IdrA or HuK. She's obviously (at least) neurologically different, and to the best of my knowledge, we can't really know if that neurological difference stems from a difference in her DNA or not. It's obviously a tautology; if she were just like IdrA or HuK, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. However, this is not the topic of this thread (and I'm sure the moderators are growing really tired of this recurring discussion in so many threads), so I'm not going to say anything else about it. I just wanted to point out that we shouldn't assume to know too much about Scarlett's DNA, hormones or neurological setup (as a lot of people seem to think they know), nor do I think that the "tech specs" of humans are the end-all be-all of this discussion. But as I said, that's another discussion altogether. On topic: Does anyone know where to find brackets or indeed any info at all about this tournament? I tried to search, but I don't know Korean, so it didn't turn up too much... | ||
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PerryHooter
Sweden268 Posts
On August 08 2013 02:33 nerak wrote: Women have different abilities than men in mathemathics/strategy games. I'm not saying I play better than BarbiePrime or calculate better than Marie Curie. I'm saying women in general are biologically less efficient in some things, just as men are in other things. (If this biological differences are caused by genetics or culture, that's an interesting question but not the point here at all) ) I think you're messing up on the terminology here a bit. If women are biologically different from men in some way, then it's caused by genes. Biologically/genetically essentially means the same thing in these discussions. There are no biological differences that's caused by cultural factors. If you make the (very questionable) claim that men are biologically better at mathematics, then you're discarding the idea that it's caused by cultural/social differences. Also, if you make such a claim the burden of proof is on you. | ||
Chexx
Korea (South)11232 Posts
1.Match 허지은 vs 김지선 2.Match 김가영 vs 이유미 11th August 1.Match 문새미 vs 권희경 2.Match 이가희 Walkover Event Match 17th August 1.Match 이유라 vs 오은하 2.Match 한아름 vs 김아름 not really familiar with the female progamer so I cant tell you their ID. | ||
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TylerThaCreator
United States906 Posts
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Taipoka
Brazil1224 Posts
Congrats on your decision. If you play it will be like Michael Jordan against me, no game.  Let the players evolve. | ||
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nerak
Brazil256 Posts
To be honest, I don't think any of us know to what extent Scarlett is different from IdrA or HuK Fair point. And one that could be figured out objectively. I think you're messing up on the terminology here a bit. If women are biologically different from men in some way, then it's caused by genes Not at all, this was actually intentional. Our "nurture" and experiences directly affect our brain's biology/chemestry. If identical twins are raised by different families, and one of them learns to write at 7, and the other learns to write at 40, they will have they will have different brain structures. Also, underperforming in math may be largely caused by self-image and stress. And not exercising math for years clearly makes you get less sharp at it. If you make the (very questionable) claim that men are biologically better at mathematics, then you're discarding the idea that it's caused by cultural/social differences. The brain is adaptable. It may adapt to culture. There are currently legitimate reasons to believe that it does, and that it doesn't. Also, if you make such a claim the burden of proof is on you. I'll walk that extra mile and select quotes from a very well sourced article on How Stuff Works. + Show Spoiler + Research indicates that men and women do in fact have different structures and wiring in the brain, and men and women may also use their brains differently. In some cases, this may explain some of the stereotypes that we may not like to acknowledge about the genders. For example, men do score better at tasks that involve orienting objects in space, while women do better at language tests In 2001, researchers from Harvard found that certain parts of the brain were differently sized in males and females, which may help balance out the overall size difference. The study found that parts of the frontal lobe, responsible for problem-solving and decision-making, and the limbic cortex, responsible for regulating emotions, were larger in women [source: Hoag]. In men, the parietal cortex, which is involved in space perception, and the amygdala, which regulates sexual and social behavior, were larger Specifically about wheter nurture can shape our brain: + Show Spoiler + Sandra Witelson, the psychologist mentioned on the previous page, disagrees with that environmental assessment, and she uses an unlikely source to support her belief that our brains are structured at birth: Albert Einstein. Witelson had the opportunity to study pieces of Einstein's brain, and she found its unique structure to be a sort of confirmation that some brain differences simply can't be explained away with social or environmental reasons [source: Hotz]. She didn't look at Einstein's intelligence or accomplishments, but she simply observed that he had a unique brain structure that was likely already formed at birth. This may help to explain why we don't have many Einsteins running around. And when it comes to the stereotype of women underperforming at Einstein's favored subjects of physics and math, that may just come down to slight differences in the brain as well. It may be that girls' and boys' brains develop at different rates. Our educational system, however, doesn't take that into account. When a child encounters a subject that his or her brain is not ready to tackle yet, the child may become frustrated and give up too quickly [source: Ripley]. To tease this out a bit further, girls may start to discern that boys do better in math classes, and that girls in their peer groups are electing not to take more advanced versions of the subjects. This can cause further drops in female enrollment in math and physics courses: One study showed that female students with math, science and engineering majors were uninterested in attending a summer math and sciences conference after they were shown videos in which the gender ratio was unbalanced, with three males for every one female [source: Bryner]. However, another study demonstrated that this sort of insecurity is all in our heads. In that study, girls' math scores improved when they were told that the exam was gender-neutral, while white men's scores on the same test dropped when they were told the scores would be evaluated against Asian men's scores [source: Crenson]. This seems to suggest that we can easily overcome any biological differences, or we can just as easily doom ourselves to fulfilling these prophecies. TL;DR: There are plenty of evidence men and women perform differently in many non-physical activities. It is subject of debate which differences are genetic and which are cultural. | ||
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iMAniaC
Norway703 Posts
On August 08 2013 03:28 Chexx wrote: 9th August 1.Match 허지은 vs 김지선 2.Match 김가영 vs 이유미 11th August 1.Match 문새미 vs 권희경 2.Match 이가희 Walkover Event Match 17th August 1.Match 이유라 vs 오은하 2.Match 한아름 vs 김아름 not really familiar with the female progamer so I cant tell you their ID. Thanks! I cross-referenced with Liquipedia, and Match 1 August 17th is BarbiePrime. Other than that, none of them seems to have a Liquipedia page (that I can find, at least). I searched around and it seems estv.kr is the official site. I don't know any Korean, but just clicking on all the links yielded a schedule and a vod page. I guess a Live link might show up when there's actually a broadcast... | ||
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playa
United States1284 Posts
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iKill
Denmark861 Posts
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GrazerRinge
999 Posts
Who is deathangel???? i dont get this one | ||
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On August 08 2013 08:13 GrazerRinge wrote: Who is deathangel???? i dont get this one DeathAngel is a Zerg player who impersonated a girl (who went by VeraLynn) in a women only tournament (with her consent) and won it. | ||
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Gryffes
United Kingdom763 Posts
On August 08 2013 08:13 GrazerRinge wrote: Who is deathangel???? i dont get this one He got caught playing on a girls account in a girls only tournament or some such thing. | ||
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CmdBash
Australia38 Posts
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LlamaNamedOsama
United States1900 Posts
On August 01 2013 01:40 synd wrote: Now name 10 female pro gamers. -Nope, you can't. I really wonder who will be in this league but also this could be a start point for female pro gamers to go big and perform way more often in major 'male' tournaments. Since there isn't really a gender restriction, they could participate everywhere. Scarlett, Aphrodite, Colagirl, Maddelisk, Flo, Queene, Livinbee, BarbiePrime, MsSpyte, Kaitlyn. [Edit] mixed up the two Chinese female pros, Colagirl and Miss | ||
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Willba
United Kingdom209 Posts
On August 08 2013 08:56 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: Scarlett, Aphrodite, Miss_Cola, Maddelisk, Flo, Queene, Livinbee, BarbiePrime, MsSpyte, Kaitlyn. Except most of those people aren't progamers. | ||
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LlamaNamedOsama
United States1900 Posts
On August 08 2013 09:07 Willba wrote: Except most of those people aren't progamers. Livinbee, MsSpyte, and Colagirl are the only ones not currently on professional teams. Livinbee is GM, though, MsSpyte is high master and was recently featured on TL streams (to pre-empt the whole "popular stream because female" debate - WHY she is featured is a nonissue, the fact that she is featured and has a decent viewer count to provide streaming income is the key point since income is a major part of distinguishing a "pro"), and ColaGirl is a known progamer from the Chinese scene. And even if you ignored those facts and considered those three not pros, unless you failed to pass 2nd grade math, 3 out of 10 falls far short of "most...aren't progamers." [Acer's Scarlett, Startale's Aphrodite, Millenium's Maddelisk, Quantic's Flo, MYI's Queene, BarbiePrime, Quantic Academy's Kaitlyn]. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On August 08 2013 09:14 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: Livinbee, MsSpyte, and Colagirl are the only ones not currently on professional teams. Livinbee is GM, though, MsSpyte is high master and was recently featured on TL streams (to pre-empt the whole "popular stream because female" debate - WHY she is featured is a nonissue, the fact that she is featured and has a decent viewer count to provide streaming income is the key point since income is a major part of distinguishing a "pro"), and ColaGirl is a known progamer from the Chinese scene. And even if you ignored those facts and considered those three not pros, unless you failed to pass 2nd grade math, 3 out of 10 falls far short of "most...aren't progamers." [Acer's Scarlett, Startale's Aphrodite, Millenium's Maddelisk, Quantic's Flo, MYI's Queene, BarbiePrime, Quantic Academy's Kaitlyn]. Don't be so aggressive. He is the one who is wrong and you are the one that could get warned by mods for this  | ||
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LongShot27
United States2084 Posts
On August 08 2013 09:07 Willba wrote: Except most of those people aren't progamers. Not pro-gamers? What is your definition of Pro-gamer? Do they need to be a GSL champion? More than half of those listed are on teams, and the ones that aren't have played in MLG's or Dreamhacks, some with sponsorships. Sure one or two of them are just publicity stunts but their are plenty of male pro-players who are worse than the majority of this list. | ||
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