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On July 25 2013 19:08 Waxangel wrote:
they should let jim play his match vs MC tomorrow
they've already let oz-grubby delay their game due to the venue closing before they could play
flexibility is better than rigid rule adherence in this specific case
Daisy and MC both waited for 5 nervwrecking hours. Then they hear Jim got DQed and went home to rest and prepare for tomorrow. Now you want to tell them they have to play Jim tomorrow morning. If they had delayed the matches until tomorrow morning in the first place ok, but going back and forth can not be done and Jim said he would be back at 3pm (they still waited util 4:30pm, so close to the venue closing). Now I feel really sorry for Jim and if he doesn't get his visa at all now he must be the unluckiest person in the world and it would be heartbreaking. But I think you also have to think about MC and Daisy. If they both agree to play Jim, OK. But do you really want to put them into that shitty situation where they have to decide themselves? But under no circumstances can Carmac just let Jim back in without contacting MC and Daisy in my opinion.
I also don't think there is another tournament like IEM that would've waited that long and tried to accommodate a player as much as they did.
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Some questions:
1)is E-sport recognised in US as a type of sport?
2)Is it that hard to get P1 Visa to the US?
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On July 25 2013 20:05 ragz_gt wrote:
I lost my first job due to couldn't get a working visa to India after 4 month of bickering, for no reason at all... Visa officers outside EU are often powertripping arseholes.
Visa officers in eu are huge assholes also. I spent 9 hours waiting at the german embassy for them to correct my name on the visa. 9 fucking hours. For something that was their fault, and was fixed in 2 minutes.
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seems like chinese players keep getting kicked out of tournys
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So why does this visa situation HAVE TO BE resolved during the IEM tournament? That seems to be crappy planning.
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On July 25 2013 20:22 Musicus wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 19:08 Waxangel wrote:
they should let jim play his match vs MC tomorrow
they've already let oz-grubby delay their game due to the venue closing before they could play
flexibility is better than rigid rule adherence in this specific case Daisy and MC both waited for 5 nervwrecking hours. Then they hear Jim got DQed and went home to rest and prepare for tomorrow. Now you want to tell them they have to play Jim tomorrow morning. If they had delayed the matches until tomorrow morning in the first place ok, but going back and forth can not be done and Jim said he would be back at 3pm (they still waited util 4:30pm, so close to the venue closing). Now I feel really sorry for Jim and if he doesn't get his visa at all now he must be the unluckiest person in the world and it would be heartbreaking. But I think you also have to think about MC and Daisy. If they both agree to play Jim, OK. But do you really want to put them into that shitty situation where they have to decide themselves? But under no circumstances can Carmac just let Jim back in without contacting MC and Daisy in my opinion. I also don't think there is another tournament like IEM that would've waited that long and tried to accommodate a player as much as they did.
If they ask mc, and mc says no I will lose all respect for him.
We don't have to think about anyone but the person who suffered at the hands of the extremely douche American visa system.
USCIS the biggest assholes in america.
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On July 25 2013 20:26 Rabiator wrote:
So why does this visa situation HAVE TO BE resolved during the IEM tournament? That seems to be crappy planning.
Already exlained above: You get an appointment from the embassy as they see fit.
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Chinese players + WCS = sad story...
On July 25 2013 20:22 Frankon wrote:
Some questions:
1)is E-sport recognised in US as a type of sport?
2)Is it that hard to get P1 Visa to the US?
Just recently some LoL players got official long-term working visas, afaik for something like 3 years. And yes, the visas are officially for playing their game professionally. So esports beginning to be recognized as a US-regulated profession. I guess for Chinese citizens visas are much much more difficult to arrange than for other citizens, unfortunately.
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On July 25 2013 20:27 redviper wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 20:22 Musicus wrote:On July 25 2013 19:08 Waxangel wrote:
they should let jim play his match vs MC tomorrow
they've already let oz-grubby delay their game due to the venue closing before they could play
flexibility is better than rigid rule adherence in this specific case Daisy and MC both waited for 5 nervwrecking hours. Then they hear Jim got DQed and went home to rest and prepare for tomorrow. Now you want to tell them they have to play Jim tomorrow morning. If they had delayed the matches until tomorrow morning in the first place ok, but going back and forth can not be done and Jim said he would be back at 3pm (they still waited util 4:30pm, so close to the venue closing). Now I feel really sorry for Jim and if he doesn't get his visa at all now he must be the unluckiest person in the world and it would be heartbreaking. But I think you also have to think about MC and Daisy. If they both agree to play Jim, OK. But do you really want to put them into that shitty situation where they have to decide themselves? But under no circumstances can Carmac just let Jim back in without contacting MC and Daisy in my opinion. I also don't think there is another tournament like IEM that would've waited that long and tried to accommodate a player as much as they did. If they ask mc, and mc says no I will lose all respect for him. We don't have to think about anyone but the person who suffered at the hands of the extremely douche American visa system. USCIS the biggest assholes in america.
There is zero connection between those two issues:
a) Jim is disqualified from IEM China for being not there to play.
b) Jim has VISA issues for WCS NA.
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According to Edison, they got two choices of time for the meeting, they have to go today because Macsed has WCS America Group matches on another one.
I really start to worry about IG.. I don't like Edison being so defensive again.
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not visas but the retarded, fragmented wcs system is killing esports.
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On July 25 2013 20:27 redviper wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 20:22 Musicus wrote:On July 25 2013 19:08 Waxangel wrote:
they should let jim play his match vs MC tomorrow
they've already let oz-grubby delay their game due to the venue closing before they could play
flexibility is better than rigid rule adherence in this specific case Daisy and MC both waited for 5 nervwrecking hours. Then they hear Jim got DQed and went home to rest and prepare for tomorrow. Now you want to tell them they have to play Jim tomorrow morning. If they had delayed the matches until tomorrow morning in the first place ok, but going back and forth can not be done and Jim said he would be back at 3pm (they still waited util 4:30pm, so close to the venue closing). Now I feel really sorry for Jim and if he doesn't get his visa at all now he must be the unluckiest person in the world and it would be heartbreaking. But I think you also have to think about MC and Daisy. If they both agree to play Jim, OK. But do you really want to put them into that shitty situation where they have to decide themselves? But under no circumstances can Carmac just let Jim back in without contacting MC and Daisy in my opinion. I also don't think there is another tournament like IEM that would've waited that long and tried to accommodate a player as much as they did. If they ask mc, and mc says no I will lose all respect for him. We don't have to think about anyone but the person who suffered at the hands of the extremely douche American visa system. USCIS the biggest assholes in america.
that's why you don't ask mc... You can't ever let a player decide like that if they want a walkover or not because they can't properly say they want it without coming over as some asshole.
Jim or his management just screwed up by trying to get the visa's during a tournament and then not properly estimating how long it would take. If he just said straight away, I won't be back today IEM had a reasonable oppurtunity to delay 1 or 2 matches for him. Now IEM just couldn't and it's just poor management for him to be out like this. Not getting a visa for wcs is just unlucky if it happens, US is rediculously strict sometimes...
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On July 25 2013 19:50 Alopex wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 19:44 Waxangel wrote:On July 25 2013 19:38 mengsk83 wrote:On July 25 2013 19:33 Waxangel wrote:On July 25 2013 19:32 grs wrote:On July 25 2013 19:30 Waxangel wrote:On July 25 2013 19:24 grs wrote:On July 25 2013 19:12 Waxangel wrote:On July 25 2013 19:11 grs wrote:On July 25 2013 19:09 dignitasDreAm wrote:
[quote]
agreed The difference is, he is stalling two matches, not only one. I don't know how tight their schedule is, but that certainly is a difference. Also he was not present for the matches at all. I can imagine it might be difficult to get the needed VISAs, but do you need to that on the day of another tournament? no it's just him vs MC 1v1 for spot in groups, there's nothign after that As I see the bracket, it is him vs Daisy and the loser vs MC. It would be not right just to have him play the last match. just say daisy gets the defwin but have the loser final be played That would be unreasonable. Why should Daisy get the freeride and MC not? Also again: Why does he just leave the venue during a tournament? because of extraordinary circumstances rules don't exist for the sake of having rules, they exist to better the tournament extraordinary circumstances he himself (or his team) is/are responsible for. Why wasnt this Visa issue sorted out before taking part in this tournament? because meetings are at the pleasure of the embassy, not yours This is exactly right, was told by iG.Edison(MacSed/Jim's team coach) that they waited outside the embassy standing for 2 hours in 40 degrees heat and another hour inside the embassy, just to get their visas denied after visa officer looked at their WCS invitation briefly.
If this is true I hate my country even more now. Come on....
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On July 25 2013 20:06 Pandemona wrote:
I'd agree with the statement "Visa's are killing E-Sports" however, i think surely it is the players/teams fault for leaving it so late? I mean as soon as you know/played your match and your in the RO16 for WCS NA, why didn't you go get a VISA application the next day for 'murica?!
Spoken as someone who has no idea about the process. They need to make an appointment at the embassy, after they get the invitation letter. And its at the pleasure of the staff, its in the big cities and the Americans are always on a power trip. I have seen phd students get stuck for 6 months despite intervention from us college presidents. I have just recently seen a US government employee be unable to travel because uscis is full of cunts.
This is the immigration reform we need not something that legalizes illegals.
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On July 25 2013 20:27 figq wrote:Chinese players + WCS = sad story... Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 20:22 Frankon wrote:
Some questions:
1)is E-sport recognised in US as a type of sport?
2)Is it that hard to get P1 Visa to the US?
Just recently some LoL players got official long-term working visas, afaik for something like 3 years. And yes, the visas are officially for playing their game professionally. So esports beginning to be recognized as a US-regulated profession. I guess for Chinese citizens visas are much much more difficult to arrange than for other citizens, unfortunately.
Well P1 is for 5 years.
Shouldn't be that hard. You get a invitation from Blizzard for WCS on paper, get a paper from yout team that you are professional player, get sth like that from other tournaments organizers (like IEM - with a side note that you got DQ cause you had to visit the embassy at that time ^^)
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On July 25 2013 20:18 Starney wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 20:14 ragz_gt wrote:On July 25 2013 20:11 Starney wrote:On July 25 2013 19:59 ragz_gt wrote:On July 25 2013 19:50 Starney wrote:On July 25 2013 19:08 Waxangel wrote:
they should let jim play his match vs MC tomorrow
they've already let oz-grubby delay their game due to the venue closing before they could play
flexibility is better than rigid rule adherence in this specific case But it's quite a different situation with these two matches. Oz and Grubby were at the venue and it isn't their fault if it is decided to close the location or whatever. Although it is very disappointing and sad for eSport, Jim wanted to handle personal issues not related to the IEM tournament. There has to be some deadline. The IEM administrators cooperated by playing the second Open Bracket first - despite that Jim didn't manage to show up in time. In fact the Chinese embassy is to blame - it's not the first case with visa issues for chinese players. You know Chinese embassy has nothing to do with Chinese traveling abroad, it's US embassy that need approve them, right? As far as I understand Chinese citizens need some approval to travel abroad, don't they? By the statements cited in this thread I assumed it was the Chinese embassy first. Sorry if that's not right ... Well, they need a passport, like everyone else, and most Chinese don't have one. But other than that no, they do not need special permission, and it would not be handled by Chinese embassy, as there is no Chinese embassy in China, for obvious reason. Not an embassy, but the embassy's headquarter, like an Department for Foreign Affairs - thought about that first. But these misunderstandings are settled now - sorry to cause this though. What's left is the following statement: Political issues between the U.S. and China are messing up eSports, as said earlier in this thread.
It is a pretty curious as short term visa from China to US, such as travel visa has not been difficult to get for a decade. Maybe just an arsehole officer (wouldn't be first, or 1001th time) trying to make a point.
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But in all seriousness, this is disastrous for the Chinese scene, and I do mean disastrous. Two players, one with a serious shot of winning a WCS regional season may not even be able to compete. And that situation leading to same said player being DQ'd from a tournament he had a great chance of doing well in, IN HIS OWN BACK YARD! Keep your politics out of my Starcraft!!!
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On July 25 2013 20:38 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 20:18 Starney wrote:On July 25 2013 20:14 ragz_gt wrote:On July 25 2013 20:11 Starney wrote:On July 25 2013 19:59 ragz_gt wrote:On July 25 2013 19:50 Starney wrote:On July 25 2013 19:08 Waxangel wrote:
they should let jim play his match vs MC tomorrow
they've already let oz-grubby delay their game due to the venue closing before they could play
flexibility is better than rigid rule adherence in this specific case But it's quite a different situation with these two matches. Oz and Grubby were at the venue and it isn't their fault if it is decided to close the location or whatever. Although it is very disappointing and sad for eSport, Jim wanted to handle personal issues not related to the IEM tournament. There has to be some deadline. The IEM administrators cooperated by playing the second Open Bracket first - despite that Jim didn't manage to show up in time. In fact the Chinese embassy is to blame - it's not the first case with visa issues for chinese players. You know Chinese embassy has nothing to do with Chinese traveling abroad, it's US embassy that need approve them, right? As far as I understand Chinese citizens need some approval to travel abroad, don't they? By the statements cited in this thread I assumed it was the Chinese embassy first. Sorry if that's not right ... Well, they need a passport, like everyone else, and most Chinese don't have one. But other than that no, they do not need special permission, and it would not be handled by Chinese embassy, as there is no Chinese embassy in China, for obvious reason. Not an embassy, but the embassy's headquarter, like an Department for Foreign Affairs - thought about that first. But these misunderstandings are settled now - sorry to cause this though. What's left is the following statement: Political issues between the U.S. and China are messing up eSports, as said earlier in this thread. It is a pretty curious as short term visa from China to US, such as travel visa has not been difficult to get for a decade. Maybe just an arsehole officer (wouldn't be first, or 1001th time) trying to make a point.
Visas that let you work are different. Much harder.
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Team Liquid is one of the places where the majority thinks that admins should always decide, never ask the opponents on their opinion. This is applied here, in a case clear as a whistle, so I don't see any base for complaints. It sucks, yes, but other calls weren't really an option.
And the situation where Daisy would get a default win but MC not isn't really fair in the system. If you consider Jim the strongest of the three, it would be unfair to give Daisy a free pass and MC having to play the strongest when he should have been playing Daisy. Even if Jim wasn't the strongest of the three in actuality (and as a tournament you should consider all players equal after the seeding) the mere thought of this being a possibility is why you should avoid such rulings.
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On July 25 2013 20:34 redviper wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 20:06 Pandemona wrote:
I'd agree with the statement "Visa's are killing E-Sports" however, i think surely it is the players/teams fault for leaving it so late? I mean as soon as you know/played your match and your in the RO16 for WCS NA, why didn't you go get a VISA application the next day for 'murica?! Spoken as someone who has no idea about the process. They need to make an appointment at the embassy, after they get the invitation letter. And its at the pleasure of the staff, its in the big cities and the Americans are always on a power trip. I have seen phd students get stuck for 6 months despite intervention from us college presidents. I have just recently seen a US government employee be unable to travel because uscis is full of cunts. This is the immigration reform we need not something that legalizes illegals.
Not only you need an appoint... You actually need the ticket booked in order to apply for visa (yes, if you get rejected you take a big lose on the ticket as well). Also, they need the official invitation from WCS to arrive, not that it helped them.
So the timing goes like Win your group > buy ticket > get invitation > call embassy and get a random appointment time > stand inline for embassy (up to 6-8 hours in some cases) > hope you get a non-arsehole (coin flip) > profit!
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EPT
