EPTSo about the WC3 players - Page 4
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teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
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martianbuddy
United States3 Posts
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eurTsItniH
887 Posts
On June 19 2013 07:01 Musicus wrote: Someone (Take would be perfect for the job) should organize a wc3 tournament with current sc2 pros. This! | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
On June 19 2013 06:48 monk wrote: I honestly don't know who Hanfy is, either in WC3 or in SC2. =( I've never heard of Tak3r or AKM playing SC2 either, but imo they're not notable enough. Where's Sky? SoJu may have been better than Remind in skill but lacked accomplishments. Th000, Fly, and Infi were probably the best players at the end of WC3 and they were also consistently good. Lucifer/Fov/Sweet/Reign are too high for their accomplishments and their time in the scene. If you want to give them a handicap for being UD and another one for quitting early, then I'd understand. Even then, Lucifer is still too high. Lucifer was insanely good. He was an ESWC champion for christ sake. Apart from that he had a 2nd place finish in B.Net Season IV finals in 2007, 2nd plae in Dreamhack 2007, 3rd in IEST 2006 and 3rd in E-Stars 2007. Along with ReiGn, Sweet, Ted and FoV, he was one of the greatest undeads to have ever touched the game, and would have been far more successful, if Blizzard didn't take their balance advice from Grubby. Edit : I would put Sky ahead of Lucifer though, purely in terms of achievements. The reason why many people don't respect TH000, Fly and Infi so much was because they were the kings of a dying scene (which is not their fault TBH, its just the way scene turned out). We tend to rate the older players higher because we remember them from the peak of WC3 scene, and at that time, TH000, fly and Infi were good players who sometimes made deep runs, but would always lose to the top dogs. Its great that they were able to become the best towards the end of the WC3 scene, but by that time the popularity had greatly waned, as had the coming of new talent. If wc3 had been thriving in late 2009, with new talent coming in, more people would have ranked Fly, Th000 and Infi higher, but unfortunately, that was not the case. | ||
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bGr.MetHiX
Bulgaria511 Posts
satiini was known for playing with solo warden only. demuslim was on 4k. madfrog was the inventor of the gargoyle harrass. Happy was probably best foreign undead player of all time. Always playing extremelly close series with grubby, many times managing to defeat him in the darkest times for undead. Lucifron was known to be a prodigy , second best orc to Grubby in the foreign scene. Titan was a really good night elf player using good staff micro. SaSe known for crazy staff micro and great ladder rankings.SaSe reached lvl 60 i tihnk when a no-limit ladder was introduced. Naniwa was pretty bad and had a very bad reputation. Was playing undead and (rightfully) complaining about orc. Stephano was an upcoming human player called "miniToD". Kas was known for good control and almost always playing Archmage first and rushing to lvl 2 water elementals.Was becoming really strong at the end of TFT Same can be said about thorzain. ToD was probably the second most consistent foreigner after Grubby. Moon stole a peasant of his with his darkranger in a televised match and defeated ToD with siege engines and a bloodmage.as night elf  HasuObs known for using DeathKnight/Lich/Alchemist in late stages of TFT to counter air armies. In my eyes a really solid undead player. Bly , more known as bly4eg was a rather mediocre undead player.VortiX was playing undead too and hasnt done anything quite notable. MacSeD was a chinese orc player, a really good friend of SaSe . Was overshadowed by xiaOt though. | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
On June 19 2013 07:12 Piledriver wrote: Lucifer was insanely good. He was an ESWC champion for christ sake. Apart from that he had a 2nd place finish in B.Net Season IV finals in 2007, 2nd plae in Dreamhack 2007, 3rd in IEST 2006 and 3rd in E-Stars 2007. Along with ReiGn, Sweet, Ted and FoV, he was one of the greatest undeads to have ever touched the game, and would have been far more successful, if Blizzard didn't take their balance advice from Grubby. Based on pure accomplishments, Lucifer is still overshadowed by Infi, Fly, Th000, Tod and Remind. An argument for Lucifer being 4th only makes sense if you give him bonus points for being Ud and Korean. Edit : I would put Sky ahead of Lucifer though, purely in terms of achievements. The reason why many people don't respect TH000, Fly and Infi so much was because they were the kings of a dying scene (which is not their fault TBH, its just the way scene turned out). We tend to rate the older players higher because we remember them from the peak of WC3 scene, and at that time, TH000, fly and Infi were good players who sometimes made deep runs, but would always lose to the top dogs. Its great that they were able to become the best towards the end of the WC3 scene, but by that time the popularity had greatly waned, as had the coming of new talent. If wc3 had been thriving in late 2009, with new talent coming in, more people would have ranked Fly, Th000 and Infi higher, but unfortunately, that was not the case. That's fair enough though and I respect that. I believe Lucifer was still around when those three were dominating though. | ||
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Inimic
Canada153 Posts
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Swift118
United Kingdom335 Posts
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MyNameIsAlex
Greece827 Posts
This came as a huge shock and killed the status and the growth of the game. Still it was big in there but not as big as BW. also: yeah almost all the top foreight sc2 players are ex wc3 pros/semi pros. also yeah CH never really >>> KR, it was only after the KR pros retired that CH players started winning things. | ||
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KalWarkov
Germany4126 Posts
On June 19 2013 06:21 Dudasc wrote: why are you guys saying that CH > KR in wc3? CH did great but KR was still a little better, all UD, NE and ORC KR players were better tha CH. China only started dominating so much towards 2009 or later because a lot of korean players went to army and had to retire or just stopped playing (fov, sweet, lucifer, check, Soju, Moon), even players like Lyn had a huge break, but even after only a few days of practing Lyn was already on good enough shape to rape players like Remind, Fly100% and the chinese human players (sky, th000, infi). I am not saying KR completely dominated CH but they were still better... KR even won most of the KRvsCH wars (if not all). The REAL power rank would be something like: 1) Moon 2) Lyn 3) Grubby 4) Lucifer 5) Soju 6) Remind 7) Fov 8) ToD 9) Sweet 10) Fly100% 11) Soccer/Infi/Reign/etc (so many players) Lucifron, demuslim and other players should never get close to top20 players ever. I wonder why so many people forgt about TH000, Soju, Zacard and other legends. For some reason people also are not even including some of the 4 UD legends: Lucifer, Sweet, Fov and Reign. Decent players like Creo/Susiria were also better than Lucifron/Demuslim (Lucifron used to be a total BM abuser ;/) and other players mentioned here. some notes: 1) Remind said himself that Soju was his master and taught him everything he knew. 2) At some point, all NE were losing to UD players, with only Soju (and sometimes Moon) being able to beat them 3) When Sky came to the scene, he was much better than Tod. 4) When Lyn broke the scene, he was also better than grubby 5) All the big 3 UDs (Lucifer, fov and sweet) had their time of brilliance and domination, each on a different time. 6) Many o the players dicussed on this threat were only able to start winning tournaments and zotacs after the scene started dying 7) Infi was terrible when the scene was on top 8) Happy used to be a little bit BM (and too sincere) in WC3. He made very good points tho and had one of the best micros of all time. Edit: Players like vortix, Bly, hasuobs and other names also only appeared in the very late scene (when wc3 was completely dead). On the other hand, Tod and Happy (mainly Tod) dominated when the scene was bigger. Violet also did pretty decent, but the scene was kinda dead as well hasuobs played wc3 since almost forever. he was very solid, sometimes took games of koreans, but he wasnt a top 5 foreigner at any point probably. pretty much like in sc2 i think, lol. infi was NOT terrible when the scene was in the prime. that must be some huge hate. violet was decent when the scene was on top, he was great when the scene started to die and won every cup when it was dead before transitioning into sc2. you completly forget TeD. sry dude, you got some things wrong in your head over time i think^^ | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On June 19 2013 07:32 MyNameIsAlex wrote: Shedding some light in something I read : WC3 was not big in Korea for this exact reason: It started becoming huge (OGN and MBC leagues or something similar it was in 2004) then there came a scandal with rigged maps towards one race (they actually changed the dmg of orc units and their HP) while in-game the values showed normal. This came as a huge shock and killed the status and the growth of the game. Still it was big in there but not as big as BW. also: yeah almost all the top foreight sc2 players are ex wc3 pros/semi pros. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=417764#9 =O | ||
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MyNameIsAlex
Greece827 Posts
On June 19 2013 07:35 monk wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=417764#9 =O bleh it was on first page holy shit. dont know how I jumped your post, I read till page 3 or something. | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
On June 19 2013 07:24 monk wrote: Based on pure accomplishments, Lucifer is still overshadowed by Infi, Fly, Th000, Tod and Remind. An argument for Lucifer being 4th only makes sense if you give him bonus points for being Ud and Korean. That's fair enough though and I respect that. I believe Lucifer was still around when those three were dominating though. Hmm, thats interesting, I looked up earnings for Th000 and Fly versus Lucifer, and they seem to be much lower. I am not sure what happened in 2009-2010, perhaps the site is missing a few tournaments, but from those statistics, Lucifer is 2nd only to infi. | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On June 19 2013 07:37 Piledriver wrote: Hmm, thats interesting, I looked up earnings for Th000 and Fly versus Lucifer, and they seem to be much lower. I am not sure what happened in 2009-2010, perhaps the site is missing a few tournaments, but from those statistics, Lucifer is 2nd only to infi. What site are you using? I'm using this: http://www.sk-gaming.com/esportindex/ | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
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bGr.MetHiX
Bulgaria511 Posts
Best Humans : Infi , th000 , Sky , ToD, Swain[FrienZ] Best Orcs : Lyn , Fly100% , Grubby , ZacarD , xiaOt , Best Night Elves : Moon , ReminD , Soju , Soccer and outside korea may be Deadman. | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On June 19 2013 07:45 Piledriver wrote: I'm using www.esportsearnings.com The SK one is more complete. You can tell because all the numbers are higher. Also, the esportsearnings site seems to be missing all the tournaments starting from 2009. Most notably, TH000 doesn't seem to have any winnings. | ||
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Champi
1422 Posts
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Swift118
United Kingdom335 Posts
On June 19 2013 07:52 Champi wrote: i agree with mostly what monk said, but i would also like to add a small theory that since army control and correct positioning and good engagements are much more important in sc2 than they were in BW because of they way the units work, with their new AI, and the 'x unit counters y' design, so therefore it would make sense that wc3 players who excel at micro would succeed in this area of the game! The theory is an interesting one but seems to hold little weight when looking at the sc2 pro scene now and see virtually everyone who is at the top is an ex bw pro. | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
On June 19 2013 07:49 bGr.MetHiX wrote: Best Undeads : FoV , TeD , Sweet , Lucifer , Susiria , GoRush , Happy , Go)Space , Reign Best Humans : Infi , th000 , Sky , ToD, Swain[FrienZ] Best Orcs : Lyn , Fly100% , Grubby , ZacarD , xiaOt , Best Night Elves : Moon , ReminD , Soju , Soccer and outside korea may be Deadman. Hum: Swain was overrated, and he did terrible when he came back from his retirement. I would probably put in Insomnia and HeMaN ahead of Swain. Orc: If you're going to put in XiaOt, as one of the best orcs, then you definitely have to put in FoCuS, FarSeer and WhO. UD: Who was GoRush. I havent really heard his name :S. Are you talking about St_GoStop? Also I think WiNNeR was probably the best European UD, when he didnt suffer from attitude problems. Elf: Yeah, outside of Korea, the only successful elves were Creolophus, Deadman and ShortRound. EvenStar was another Korean elf who was really strong during the early stages of WC3, and probably has the same amount of accomplishments as Soccer/SoJu. | ||
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