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Here the ppl you could consider very good foreigners and played wc3 as their main title before sc2 (e.g. TLO and socke played a bit of wc3 i think, but more casually)
 Terran
Lucifron (Orc)
Happy (Undead)
Kas (Human)
ThorZaiN (Human)
Demuslim (Human)
 Zerg
Stephano (Human)
VortiX (Undead)
moonglade (Nightelf)
Bly (Undead)
XlorD (Undead)
TargA (Nightelf)
 Protoss
Naniwa (Undead)
SaSe (Nightelf)
Grubby (Orc)
HasuObs (Undead)
Titan (Nightelf)
ToD (Human)
elfi (Undead)
NightEnD (Undead)
Casters:
Axslav (Nightelf / Random)
Rotterdam (Orc)
TaKe (Human)
WC3 was more popular and way more played in europe than BW, but way less popular in Korea than BW.
Funnily enough, koreans were still the best in war3, but the best 5-10 europeans were almost or acutally on korean level.
Moon (NightElf), Sky (Human), TeD (Undead) and Lyn (Orc) were still slightly favored against them at all times (with the small exception of Grubby).
As you might know, Moon and Lyn played Sc2 for a bit, with decent success (Moon = Dreamhack runner up; Lyn = Code S), but they sadly never seem to have played the game full time.
I dont know what Sky is doing, he was without a doubt the best Human player in the world; TeD bought a chinese wc3-related restaurant back then after he stopped playing, not sure how it goes 
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United States8476 Posts
On June 19 2013 04:59 Zenbrez wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 04:39 monk wrote:A bit of history: The obvious reason WC3 isn't as popular in Korea is that BW was around when esports came to Korea. Similarly, WC3 is way more popular in China than BW because WC3 was the game when esports was coming to China. However, what most people don't know is that Korea tried out WC3. Unfortunately, there was a big scandal that tainted WC3 forever in Korea, second only to Savior's match-fixing scandal. Back in the day, Moon and other Night Elves were winning every Korean WC3. Because this was the case, one guy at MBC thought that it would be more interesting if players of other races won a tournament. So he basically rigged all the maps so that Orc would get slight buffs and Night Elf would get slight nerfs. These changes were virtually undetectable: The reason why the effects were not apparent to the players, was that they were made to things such as hit point regeneration, rotation speed of units, production speed, cooldown and range of magic. All the Night Elf units were nerfed down.
An example of such changes is that the Orc units' hit point regeneration rate was upped from 0,25 to 0,45 while the Night Elf hit point regeneration was lowered to 0,40 from 0,50 (the Night Elves only regenerate during night time). Another example is that the build time of the Great Hall was reduced to 138 from 150 seconds, while the Tree of Life build time was upped to 115 from 110 seconds. Funnily enough, Moon met an Orc in the finals and still won the tournament. Soon after though, these changes were discovered by Dayfly and the scandal broke, tainting WC3 forever in the minds of Koreans. Soon after, the leagues gradually began dying out until no major leagues ran at all after WEG3. Link to an article about the scandal Was WC3 successful relative the bw at the time? Or was it like Halo is to us Edit: I like reading bits of history about bw and wc3. If you have anything more that you think might be interesting.. don't hesitate I played the fuck out of those games but had no idea of a pro scene until early 2011
It was decently popular. A good analogy would be something like
SC2 international today : Dota2 international today :: BW in korea then : WC3 in korea then
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What happened to Moon now by the way?
I've not heard him for a long time.
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damn, you guys are makin me really nostalgic about war3. still my favorite game i've ever played/watched by far.
Grubby/Moon/Sky/TH000/TeD/ToD/Lyn/Fly/Dayfly/Zacard/Lucifron/Focus/Remind will always be engrained in my heart
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That's mostly because W3 pros were much younger when SC2 came about. Foreign BW scene was pretty much dead at that point and the only person playing actively was Idra. Most established BW pros ceased to play before SC2 appeared (and even then most played it out of curiosity rather then with intent to come back to progaming).
Think of it this way - name the TOP 30 foreigners of all time and think about how many of them actually gave SC2 a *serious* shot. Very, very few.
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Quite a few top Korean WC3 players still play as far as I know...competing in Chinese tournaments and stuff.
Quite a few actually tried SC2, but I guess they were used to the success in WC3, and saw that it would be incredibly hard for them to have the same level of success:
Moon
oGs.Ven (known as SocceR in WC3)
Lyn (playing for Chinese teams)
FoCuS and Shy (Fnatic players, teammates to Go)Space ) - I think tried playing in the first GSL Opens in 2010 but weren't very successful.
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Thanks for all the replies. Yes I suppose there was a huge difference between the foreign BW and WC3 scene, but I was still quite surprised by how well the WC3 players are doing. Also Monk I actually did not know that story about the rigged maps, even though I did follow the WC3 quite a lot, thanks for sharing and that is actually quite interesting. I suppose it did impact the Korean scene.
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On June 19 2013 05:18 eurTsItniH wrote:
Thanks for all the replies. Yes I suppose there was a huge difference between the foreign BW and WC3 scene, but I was still quite surprised by how well the WC3 players are doing. Also Monk I actually did not know that story about the rigged maps, even though I did follow the WC3 quite a lot, thanks for sharing and that is actually quite interesting. I suppose it did impact the Korean scene.
Just like the money fixing scandal did a number on us with IPXZerg. Both were well documented on TL. We weren't too thrilled with certain players trying to break the rules in the TSL ladder, or the fact certain players were maphacking/having other players play for them on their accounts to smurfing etc. List goes on and on. Just a whole lot of bullshit going down in both scenes. No other way to put it, but hell good thing we were right on top of it most of the time.
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United States8476 Posts
Also, I was actually going to write some articles about wc3 a year ago but got really sidetracked. But this might be interesting:
Unofficial TL WC3 Power Rank
Relative WC3 skill/achievements of SC2 players from WC3
Grubby/Moon/Sky(very heavily debated who's the best)
Lyn
Tod (retired early)
Infi
Remind
Creolophus (prodigy who won WCG after quitting the game, went to studies after one year as a full-time gamer)
Lucifron (one of only two players to ever successfully break into the wc3 scene extremely late)
Soccer
Violet (one of only two players to ever successfully break into the wc3 scene extremely late)
Check
SaSe (trained in china, always got top 16 but never won a tournament)
Happy
Xlord
Demuslim
Satiini (known for never going to lans because he had a fear of traveling)
Hasuobs
Titan (don't remember him too well)
Macsed (consistently overshadowed by other Chinese players, was probably better than this)
Rotterdam (known for using farseer when everyone used blademaster)
Nightend
ThorZaiN (started late, was getting good at the end of WC3)
Kas (known for getting into semifinals of online cups)
Vortix (way overshadowed by his brother)
Moonglade
Semi competitive
SjoW (know for imba 2v2 team with Delicato in early WC3)
Naniwa (known more for BM than skill)
Take (I just remember it being funny that he was on the same team as a player named tak3r)
Axslav (known for imba 2v2 team with Strifeco, random player)
Strifeco (see Axslav)
Not competitive
Stephano (no real accomplishments)
Polt (casual)
Other
Bly/Targa/elfi/Naama (don't remember much about them)
Madfrog(Really hard to place since he played at the different time from everyone else, was one of the greats during his time though)
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On June 19 2013 05:15 Schelim wrote:
damn, you guys are makin me really nostalgic about war3. still my favorite game i've ever played/watched by far.
Grubby/Moon/Sky/TH000/TeD/ToD/Lyn/Fly/Dayfly/Zacard/Lucifron/Focus/Remind will always be engrained in my heart
Dood, what about Creolophus, the best foreign Nightelf there ever was? (sry sase) :D
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All I know is that it was a lot easier to be a macro player and use that to your advantage in BW. Now anyone can have "perfect" macro. If you neglected micro in BW, it's pretty tough. Macro is easy enough that anyone can do it, meanwhile micro is either harder or at least more important now, favoring WC 3 players. As for Koreans, I dunno. I guess to be the best and spend that much playing, you had to master ever aspect of Starcraft, so having micro be more of a difference maker isn't that big of a deal for them.
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Creolophus seems a little high considering he only played for several years, but was the only foreigner to win a WCG. Still plenty of other tournaments as well.
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Sase and polt wer from wc3.
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On June 19 2013 05:25 StarStruck wrote:
Creolophus seems a little high considering he only played for several years, but was the only foreigner to win a WCG. Still plenty of other tournaments as well.
Grubby won WCG twice. i don't know if you consider Chinese players foreigners, but Sky won twice as well. just saying.
Creo was definitely the only player to win a WCG while being retired from progaming though :D
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On June 19 2013 05:22 monk wrote:
Also, I was actually going to write some articles about wc3 a year ago but got really sidetracked. But this might be interesting:
Unofficial TL WC3 Power Rank
Relative WC3 skill/achievements of SC2 players from WC3
Grubby/Moon/Sky(very heavily debated who's the best)
Lyn
Tod (retired early)
Infi
Remind
Creolophus
Lucifron (one of only two players to ever break into sc2 scene extremely late)
Soccer
Violet (one of only two players to ever break into sc2 scene extremely late)
Check
SaSe (trained in china, always got top 16 but never won a tournament)
Happy
Xlord
Demuslim
Satiini (known for never going to lans because he had a fear of traveling)
Hasuobs
Titan (don't remember him too well)
Rotterdam (known for using farseer when everyone used blademaster)
Nightend (
ThorZaiN (was getting good at the end of WC3)
Kas (known for getting into semifinals of online cups)
Moonglade (known for massing fiends)
Vortix (way overshadowed by his brother)
Semi competitive
SjoW (know for imba 2v2 team with Delicato in early WC3)
Naniwa (known more for BM than skill)
Axslav (known for imba 2v2 team with Strifeco, random player)
Strifeco (see Axslav)
Not competitive
Stephano (no real accomplishments)
Polt (casual)
Other
Bly/Targa/elfi/Naama (don't remember much about them)
Madfrog(Really hard to place since he played at the different time from everyone else, was one of the greats during his time though)
Dood, stephano was called "miniToD" in the late wc3 years, he was quite good already. almost on the level of the better human foreigners (demuslim/thorzain/kas).
Also, Bly and VortiX were quite decent UD players.
moonglade played Nightelf mainly.
My ranking of wc3 players that appeared in Sc2 would be the following (only counting their wc3 performances, some of them were good at different times, hard to measure)
1) Moon, Lyn, Grubby (maybe between 1 and 2? hard to judge how many you put here)
2) Infi
3) ToD (in between 2 and 3 probably), viOlet, SocceR, Check, Lucifron, Happy, Madfrog (?)
4) SaSe
5) XlorD, Demuslim, HasuObs, ThorZaiN, Satiini
6) Titan, Kas, Bly, NightEnD, RotterdaM
7) VortiX, mOOnGlaDe, Stephano, Axslav, elfitaja, Naama
8) TargA, NaniWa
9) Strifeco, TaKe
something in those lines ~~
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Feast was also playing WC3.
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On June 19 2013 05:39 Boucot wrote:
Feast was also playing WC3.
not at a notably high level as far as i know, i didnt know him before sc2 which should mean something <3
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United States8476 Posts
On June 19 2013 05:37 KalWarkov wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 05:22 monk wrote:
Also, I was actually going to write some articles about wc3 a year ago but got really sidetracked. But this might be interesting:
Unofficial TL WC3 Power Rank
Relative WC3 skill/achievements of SC2 players from WC3
Grubby/Moon/Sky(very heavily debated who's the best)
Lyn
Tod (retired early)
Infi
Remind
Creolophus
Lucifron (one of only two players to ever break into sc2 scene extremely late)
Soccer
Violet (one of only two players to ever break into sc2 scene extremely late)
Check
SaSe (trained in china, always got top 16 but never won a tournament)
Happy
Xlord
Demuslim
Satiini (known for never going to lans because he had a fear of traveling)
Hasuobs
Titan (don't remember him too well)
Rotterdam (known for using farseer when everyone used blademaster)
Nightend (
ThorZaiN (was getting good at the end of WC3)
Kas (known for getting into semifinals of online cups)
Moonglade (known for massing fiends)
Vortix (way overshadowed by his brother)
Semi competitive
SjoW (know for imba 2v2 team with Delicato in early WC3)
Naniwa (known more for BM than skill)
Axslav (known for imba 2v2 team with Strifeco, random player)
Strifeco (see Axslav)
Not competitive
Stephano (no real accomplishments)
Polt (casual)
Other
Bly/Targa/elfi/Naama (don't remember much about them)
Madfrog(Really hard to place since he played at the different time from everyone else, was one of the greats during his time though) Dood, stephano was called "miniToD" in the late wc3 years, he was quite good already. almost on the level of the better human foreigners (demuslim/thorzain/kas). Also, Bly and VortiX were quite decent UD players. moonglade played Nightelf mainly. My ranking of wc3 players that appeared in Sc2 would be the following (only counting their wc3 performances, some of them were good at different times, hard to measure) 1) Moon, Lyn, Grubby (maybe between 1 and 2? hard to judge how many you put here) 2) Infi 3) ToD (in between 2 and 3 probably), viOlet, SocceR, Check, Lucifron, Happy, Madfrog (?) 4) SaSe 5) XlorD, Demuslim, HasuObs, ThorZaiN, Satiini 6) Titan, Kas, Bly, NightEnD, RotterdaM 7) VortiX, mOOnGlaDe, Stephano, Axslav, elfitaja, Naama 8) TargA, NaniWa 9) Strifeco, TaKe something in those lines ~~
I honestly haven't heard anything from Stephano besides the fact that he played in some Zotac cups and that he went to a few Lans.
Sky dabbled with SC2 and played in a showmatch vs Moon. He coaches the WE LoL/Dota team now.
Remind tried to qualify for GSL once.
Creo is the coach for a Norwegian SC2 team.
I'm fairly sure moonglade played Ud.
On June 19 2013 05:32 Schelim wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2013 05:25 StarStruck wrote:
Creolophus seems a little high considering he only played for several years, but was the only foreigner to win a WCG. Still plenty of other tournaments as well. Grubby won WCG twice. i don't know if you consider Chinese players foreigners, but Sky won twice as well. just saying. Creo was definitely the only player to win a WCG while being retired from progaming though :D
Fly and Ted also won WCGs. (Although the most recent WCG won by Ted only featured around 7 competitive players.)
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Dimaga, White-Ra, Brat_OK, IdrA (lol), Nerchio, MaNa ... all Broodwar Players, but really, Korean Pros > WC3 Players
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u all forget Miou ,the recordholder for eps!
also u put xlord and demuslim evenly 
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EPT
