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On June 13 2013 01:14 Clbull wrote:
Balance opinions incoming.
Gameplay has already become stale because MMMW (Marines, Marauders, Medivacs and Widow Mines) appear to be the only viable option to play TvZ. Mech is far less viable because it's often virtually impossible to strike a balance between fending off mutalisk harass with Thors and Missile Turrets, having enough Siege Tanks to hold a potential Roach Hydra or mass Ultralisk bust, not keeping yourself contained on two bases because getting a third requires a great amount of positioning and pre-construction of Supply Depot walls and Missile Turrets, having enough anti-air to snipe Brood Lords, Corruptors and Vipers, and still preventing the Zerg from staying one full saturated base above you.
Additionally, I haven't seen anybody other than Strelok and GoOdy successfully pull off a TvP Mech build. Even then I feel confident their builds would crumble to a precise 2 or 3 gate early game aggressive timing. A good reason why is probably the weakness of Siege Tanks from Wings onwards and the lack of TvP viability for the Widow Mine and Hellion (note, not the Hellbat which is a great unit in its own right.) The Widow Mine is a very useful unit until you consider the fact that a Tier 1.5 unit (Stalker) with detection can completely hard-counter it by outranging its attack radius. This is something the Hydralisk cannot even do until it gets its own upgrade (Grooved Spines) to increase attack range.
Using Widow Mines to defend a 4-gate is also a double edged sword. You may have sniped two Zealots but on the other hand you now have two dead 150 minerals and 50 gas worth of useless dead weight now recharging its attack, in the amount of time it woudl take an extra warp in to breach your main, kill your workers and production and lose you the game.
On the point of the Siege Tank I could elaborate further and give some accurate numbers. Bear in mind the change to overkill doesn't factor in but surely it doesn't excuse a straight-up 20 damage nerf...
Siege Tank BW: 70 Explosive Damage (35 to Small, 52.5 to Medium and 70 to Large units)
Siege Tank SC2: 35 Damage (50 vs Armored)
As far as I know, these numbers are 100% accurate.
Siege Tank BW vs Archon BW (360 effective HP) - 360 / 70 = 5 remainder 10. Six hits to kill.
Siege Tank SC2 vs Archon SC2 (360 effective HP) - 360 / 35 = 10 remainder 11. Eleven hits to kill.
That's right, Archons are now the second-tankiest unit in existence against Siege Tanks, the first being the Immortal with a whopping fourteen hits to kill. This is because despite being large, the Siege Tank does not even do full damage because it is not Armored.
Siege Tank BW vs Dragoon BW (180 effective HP) - 180 / 70 = 2 remainder 40. Three hits to kill.
Siege Tank SC2 vs Stalker SC2 (160 effective HP) - 160 / 50 = 3 remainder 10. Four hits to kill.
Despite being inferior stat wise to the Dragoon, the Stalker is tankier to tank fire in SC2. Added with better pathing AI and Blink, Stalkers are now the hard-counter for Siege Tanks when in Brood War Tanks soft-countered them.
Siege Tank BW vs Hydralisk BW (85 HP) - 85 / 52.5 = 1 remainder 32.5. Two hits to kill.
Siege Tank SC2 vs Hydralisk SC2 (85 HP) - 85 / 35 = 2 remainder 15. Three hits to kill.
Hydralisks are also tankier against the Siege Tank. In fact, Roaches take the same number of hits to kill as well. The only reason they would fare weaker against a tank line would likely be the Hellion/Hellbat support in front.
Siege Tank BW vs Reaver BW (180 effective HP) - 180 / 70 = 2 remainder 40. Three hits to kill.
Siege Tank SC2 vs Colossus SC2 (300 effective HP) - 300 / 50 = Six hits to kill.
That's right, the Colossus - commonly considered an a-move unit - is far tankier to the Siege Tank than the Reaver was in Brood War. The sad reality is that Robo tech in SC2 straight-up sweeps away Mech when it's not in a critical mass.
Siege Tank BW vs Ultralisk BW (400 HP) - 400 / 70 = 4 remainder 20. Five hits to kill.
Siege Tank SC2 vs Ultralisk SC2 (500 HP) - 500 / 50 = Ten hits to kill.
Here's an even bigger shocker. Ultralisks are now so tanky against Siege Tanks that it takes ten shells to kill them. This is due to their nerfed maximum damage potential and the Ultralisk's 100 health buff in the transition to SC2. Now consider the fact that Blizzard were considering the possibility of adding an autocasted Charge ability to the Ultra.
How would I improve the Siege Tank? Simple
Siege Tank:
35 damage (60 vs Armored, 85 vs Massive)
Siege Tank BW: No Smart AI Targetting
Siege Tank SC2: Very Smart AI Targetting
Units BW: Didn't clump
Units SC2: Clump
I don't mind if you get your damage buff as long as you remove the smart AI Targetting, make siege mode research again, make tanks cost the same as they did in BW, and make units stop clumping magically against them.
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On June 13 2013 02:34 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 01:14 Clbull wrote:
Additionally, I haven't seen anybody other than Strelok and GoOdy successfully pull off a TvP Mech build. Even then I feel confident their builds would crumble to a precise 2 or 3 gate early game aggressive timing. You have failed to establish why this is a bad thing. Strelok and GoOdy have some of the most boring, turtley playstyles I've ever seen in TvP. Why should it be a priority for Blizzard to make that low-APM, a-move style more viable? I know people like to wax poetic about how mech players are "decision making" geniuses, but let's call a spade a spade. There's nothing particularly interesting about watching mech TvP because both sides have mostly one-dimensional units with a couple of spellcasters. We can theorize about the Siege Tank all we want, but in Sc2 (i.e not BW) Siege Tank based mech versus Protoss is basically turtling until 170-200 supply and then pushing slowly and unstoppably across the map. This is not fun. Seeing rings of turrets and Photon Cannons at every base to discourage drops means that both players are just vying for positioning with really boring long-ranged units like Carriers, Siege Tanks, and Tempests. No thanks. Meanwhile bio based TvP is mechanically demanding for both players and much more fast-paced than mech based styles.
Is it possible for other people to have other opinions? Maybe even like different things and have a different perception on what is boring and what isn't? Interesting questions...my Lord
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 13 2013 01:48 Prog455 wrote:
Personally i would love to see a buff to Tanks and a nerf to Hellbats. I always felt that the sole purpose of Hellbats was to make up for the fact that Siege Tanks are hard-countered by next to every Protoss unit in the game, especially Zealots.
A plain buff to tank damage vs. shields would be great :/
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I'm not saying this is needed (and it may in fact cause more issues than it solves), but if you want some way for widow mines to synergize with tanks, wouldn't having them attack only air be a possible solution? The reason I suggest this is that Mech really has terrible anti-air without going into a bio-mech composition, and part of what people want from mech is more positional play. Widow mines, like tanks, need to deploy to be effective (although their deploy is called burrow), and the stats of the widow mine could be tweaked to make them into more of a dedicated anti-aircraft unit.
Just a suggestion, and I'd like to re-affirm that I don't think it's needed as a nerf - it may just be an interesting possible change.
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I'm really surprised we dont see more pros trying to use Liquid`Sea's style of Mech TvP that hit hard with fast and unpredictable timings. Terran Mech is like a WIP right now but that doesn't mean we won't see it ever being used. Its anyones guess what kind of styles will develop in the future of the matchup.
Personally I dislike widow mines as a unit, I really don't see where the skill comes in with them - the only decision making for the terran is where/when to burrow it and for zergs its about remembering where they are and either baiting out shots before moving in or trying to cause friendly fire. Tanks are much more interesting to me.
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France9034 Posts
On June 13 2013 03:11 Targe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 01:48 Prog455 wrote:
Personally i would love to see a buff to Tanks and a nerf to Hellbats. I always felt that the sole purpose of Hellbats was to make up for the fact that Siege Tanks are hard-countered by next to every Protoss unit in the game, especially Zealots. A plain buff to tank damage vs. shields would be great :/
Am I the only one who feels it's wrong that in the end we'll have the following :
Damage : 35 (+ 15 vs Armored) (+15 vs shield) (+10 vs Psionic) (insert another exception damage)
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On June 13 2013 03:18 Aequos wrote:
I'm not saying this is needed (and it may in fact cause more issues than it solves), but if you want some way for widow mines to synergize with tanks, wouldn't having them attack only air be a possible solution? The reason I suggest this is that Mech really has terrible anti-air without going into a bio-mech composition, and part of what people want from mech is more positional play. Widow mines, like tanks, need to deploy to be effective (although their deploy is called burrow), and the stats of the widow mine could be tweaked to make them into more of a dedicated anti-aircraft unit.
Just a suggestion, and I'd like to re-affirm that I don't think it's needed as a nerf - it may just be an interesting possible change.
So you are essentially forcing the Terrans to use a less mobile army against zergs when going bio. I don't know what logic persuaded you to think that this is not a nerf.
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I gotta say, I like the direction that they're going with balance in this game.
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On June 13 2013 02:34 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 01:14 Clbull wrote:
Additionally, I haven't seen anybody other than Strelok and GoOdy successfully pull off a TvP Mech build. Even then I feel confident their builds would crumble to a precise 2 or 3 gate early game aggressive timing. You have failed to establish why this is a bad thing. Strelok and GoOdy have some of the most boring, turtley playstyles I've ever seen in TvP. Why should it be a priority for Blizzard to make that low-APM, a-move style more viable? I know people like to wax poetic about how mech players are "decision making" geniuses, but let's call a spade a spade. There's nothing particularly interesting about watching mech TvP because both sides have mostly one-dimensional units with a couple of spellcasters. We can theorize about the Siege Tank all we want, but in Sc2 (i.e not BW) Siege Tank based mech versus Protoss is basically turtling until 170-200 supply and then pushing slowly and unstoppably across the map. This is not fun. Seeing rings of turrets and Photon Cannons at every base to discourage drops means that both players are just vying for positioning with really boring long-ranged units like Carriers, Siege Tanks, and Tempests. No thanks. Meanwhile bio based TvP is mechanically demanding for both players and much more fast-paced than mech based styles. I have had this position since early in Wings. I think the community push for mech to be viable in TvP (that blizzard has responded to) is a mistake. The TvP mech that we have seen is extremely boring, and totally contrary to blizzards stated goals of making the game more action packed.
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On June 12 2013 09:02 Waxangel wrote:- When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
- When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
uh what? I feel like we're missing an explaination of how this is skill and not random
I think they are eluding to the fact that you have to drag the zerg army over your mines without killing your own army. The difference being that Tanks just shoot constantly from the back of the battle but Widow mines have to be placed well and then you have to lure the zerg army in to them, which does take more skill.
You watch a pro use a widow mine, they lure the enemy in and boom, or the enemy is smart and just sends a couple of lings to trigger the mine and then moves in with the rest. You can't have this dynamic with tanks, widow mines are very cool and using them to their full potential requires much higher skill than doing the same with seige tanks, to use a seige tank to its full potential you just have to get it to the battle and make sure it doesn't get surrounded before it gets it shots off... not that difficult tbh
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I think tweaks could be made to the wm, it seems a bit to simple at the moment, but I don't really know, it would be interesting if the spell would have to be cast individually, but maybe that's to difficult for the wm user.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 13 2013 03:22 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2013 03:11 Targe wrote:On June 13 2013 01:48 Prog455 wrote:
Personally i would love to see a buff to Tanks and a nerf to Hellbats. I always felt that the sole purpose of Hellbats was to make up for the fact that Siege Tanks are hard-countered by next to every Protoss unit in the game, especially Zealots. A plain buff to tank damage vs. shields would be great :/ Am I the only one who feels it's wrong that in the end we'll have the following : Damage : 35 (+ 15 vs Armored) (+15 vs shield) (+10 vs Psionic) (insert another exception damage)
If it worked I couldn't care less.
On June 13 2013 03:55 IcookTacos wrote:
I think tweaks could be made to the wm, it seems a bit to simple at the moment, but I don't really know, it would be interesting if the spell would have to be cast individually, but maybe that's to difficult for the wm user.
They disabled manual casting.
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I dunno, the amount of micro required to tell each mine when to hit would be insane ATM.
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On June 13 2013 03:42 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 09:02 Waxangel wrote:- When you see an army of Marines and tanks clash with a Zerg army, you pretty much know who will come out ahead, even before the battle.
- When you see an army of Marines and Widow Mines, it comes down to the skill of the players in that specific battle.
uh what? I feel like we're missing an explaination of how this is skill and not random I think they are eluding to the fact that you have to drag the zerg army over your mines without killing your own army. The difference being that Tanks just shoot constantly from the back of the battle but Widow mines have to be placed well and then you have to lure the zerg army in to them, which does take more skill. You watch a pro use a widow mine, they lure the enemy in and boom, or the enemy is smart and just sends a couple of lings to trigger the mine and then moves in with the rest. You can't have this dynamic with tanks, widow mines are very cool and using them to their full potential requires much higher skill than doing the same with seige tanks, to use a seige tank to its full potential you just have to get it to the battle and make sure it doesn't get surrounded before it gets it shots off... not that difficult tbh
Let's also not forget the devastating "surround the Terran army over their own mines" trick. We have seen a couple of pro games where Terrans take more damage from their own mines than the Zerg, and many many more streamed games where that has happened.
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Nerf buff nerf buff nerf buff... everyone's favourite topic in SC2. Noone's forcing Terran to go widow mine, or Zerg to go muta ling.
It's funny how people who are asking for nerfs have probably never used the unit they're asking to nerf in the first place.
On the bright side - it appears Blizzard have learnt from their previous mistake (of over-nerfing Terran due to balance whine), and are now sensible enough to ignore the anti-Terran sentiment within SC2, due to people being jealous of the historical success Terrans had in the past.
In the meantime, have fun whining, knowing that Blizzard are not going to carry out any nerfs any time soon since there is no obvious imbalance within the game at the moment.
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This is simply scary, reading David Kim you can tell he's not an expert on balance and doesnt understand the essence of it, it's not making the game "more fun" and "viewer friendly", by adding shittons of drops and big explosions (mainly to one race that already won a shitload of titles in WoL but clearly was weak in the end of it, but now ahah what the fuck start of WoL all over again).
They're looking at it the wrong way, they're trying to make the game exciting and "promote skill"? How's widow mine gameplay promoting skill? Thats just a really ridiculous thing to say as head of SC2 balance team... Zergs cheesing the fuck out of terrans even when they got much better macro (Soulkey vs Alive rofl, tell me Soulkey isnt confident in a stable macro game against Alive, and yet he still goes for coin flippy early timings that can get blind countered, especially after his final vs innovation, Alive should have prepared, he didnt, yay, coin flip won) than their opponent should be enough for them to wake up. The thing is, the ball is on terran side in the ZvT match up, they are going to get much better at defending timings, and learn to use properly their bio mine gameplay, I seriously dont see ZvT in 3 months being anything else than roach bane / +1+1 ling bane timings type of play, followed by "macro" after damage has been dealt.
But hey, "they're taking their time", good for them, less work I suppose, but this is fucked up, ZvZ, spore buff, what the fuck... When you see the spore buff you know for good that they dont have a fucking clue...
And most of this is said from a viewer perspective, call me biased, I was the first to aknowledge infestors were OP in WoL and even avoided including them in gameplay because I hated feeling outplayed and winning at the same time, same reason I switched to zerg 3 months into WoL, I play this game for fun and to do my best, and I mostly watch, not play, I wished terran would be honest about this and stop that fucking hypocrisy, this is way too long for the esport scene, they're killing it because they ARE going to make big changes, we all know it, and the longer it takes, just like first GSLs, we'll just look at it and be like "meh, was ugly back then", good thinking David, good thinking...
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Many terrans use only the units starting with an M, which I think mostly shows that the game is far from being figured out. For instance, the raven isn't a popular unit although it's effective in many situations and probably will see more use in the future.
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On June 12 2013 09:01 BronzeKnee wrote:
Shocked that they won't change the Widow Mine.
It isn't overpowered statistically, but the effect it has on the game is dramatic. It controls APM better than any other unit, to the extent that in TvZ it allows Terran to dominate multitasking. Idra said this is the reason so many people have been doing Roach-Bane busts, simply because a Terran player who is good at multitasking can dominate an equally skilled Zerg player using Widow Mines. As a Protoss bystander, I'm inclined to agree when I watch high level Terran or Zerg streams. It ruined my favorite match up to watch for me.
Also as another poster said above, it promotes a chance aspect, rather than skill. The skill in using Tanks isn't just focus firing, it is in the positioning! Blizzard seems to have lost sight of this.
It requires more skill from the zerg player because he cant just a-move and "micro the banes" into a marine tank army.
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I am a bit annoyed they seem content to relegate the siege tank to history. Forget the fucking carrier, the siege tank IS the iconic unit of this game.
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Widow mines... I don't know. I get what he is saying, that you have to split carefully and that requires a lot of skill. No doubt, it requires a LOT of skill. Maybe too much effort involved, because you can't do it only during engagements... you have to do it for every single movement your army makes anywhere. Everything you needed to do just got doubled for Zerg or anybody playing against Widowmines. As a Protoss main, I've only played Z and T casually. But I have to say, widowmines feel a little dirty when you just leave one lying around randomly and you kill half his zerglings while he's moving out. You often just get lucky kills, and the fact that they hit air so hard there is literally no safe unit to use against them without huge amounts of attention. Granted, at the pro level, Zergs probably just have to suck it up and double their APM, but even that is a little harsh. Can anybody function at 800 APM?
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EPT
