With WCS America drawing to a close, and the season finals coming up in Korea next week, I thought it would be a decent idea to provide feedback, especially for each of the regions, so that each group could take in their own feedback before everything gets blended into the WCS finals. Which region of WCS did things the best? Who messed up? And lastly, what do they need to do to fix it.
Personally, I loved WCS EU. The gameplay might not have been as tip top as KR (Although I would argue that MVP and Stephano had an overall more entertaining series even if it finished faster) but the personality made up for it and then some. From White Ra bartending to MC taking Apollo's job, everything was absolutely fantastic. Having their own studio a-la GOM's studio in Gangnam was also a huge improvement. Even the small crowd that was present made for some entertaining downtime and cheerfuls and everything else a crowd needs. The only thing I think they could have done was hold the finals in a real venue, although that might have been harder to do since the finals weren't standalone like they were in Korea.
WCS Korea was great as always, GOM has always done a good job with the GSL. Hopefully OGN can handle things just as well, and with as much experience as the GOM team, they should be fine. There is obviously less personality than EU, but they make up for it by representing essentially the pinnacle of competition.
WCS America is where I felt things fell short though. I don't think they're harming the scene or anything, but it could have been better. It really boils down to this to me: for any tournament, WCS AM is fine, it does a decent job in a vacuum but this isn't a vacuum, it's WCS. It's supposed to represent the pinnacle of SC2 tournaments. WCS EU and WCS KR managed this, but WCS AM has fallen woefully short.
I feel like they aren't even trying compared to EU. If they shared the time slot with EU at all, they would get massacred. I tried to tune into every WCS EU match I could, but was never as excited for AM(I live in the US). Axeltoss did a good job with the interviews, but it doesn't compare to the personality presented in EU. The NY studio is nice, but no live crowd really kills the mood. Would Dimaga explode with happiness after beating happy in a room full of only his dejected opponent? Stuff like that made EU grade, and is what hurts America.
Those are my thoughts at least (in the spoiler). None of the WCS events were bad, but all had room for improvement from the beginning to the end. Hopefully this (or just the company by themselves) can help them make adjustments going into the next iteration of WCS so that they can really deserve and truly be better than the other "just" tournaments we have. Note: Please keep it constructive. Argument and debate is ok, but refrain from bashing any of the regions. As far as we know (until any type of further notice), WCS is here to stay, MLG is here to stay, ESL is here to stay, etc. etc.
I feel like separate thread would be a lot more constructive, this will mostly get down to X is better than Y?
GSL doesn't really need any feedback, it was great as always.
EU did very well, and they have a lot of time to prepare for the next season. I don't have any good ideas to improve further, so can't really help there either.
I thought America was pretty good as well. Caster suits could be better, and overall it could feel a bit more grand like KR/EU did. I don't know if it's possible at all to get at least a small live audience in the MLG studio, but that would certainly add some atmosphere. Things I liked were the city shots and playing in front of windows was great in the daytime, not so much when it got dark
i haven't watched much of WCS KR so i can't really say anything about it.
WCS EU did a perfect job in my opinion. the finals could have had a bigger crowd like you said but they were probably not able to do that. and the hübner segment wasnt thaaaat interesting for me, but i loved the twitter messages during games.
WCS US did a bad job in my opinion. probably because there was no crowd that could get me hyped. im also no fan of axslav and axeltoss. It was so much easier for me to watch when bitterdam casted.
GSL was as great as always, I'm just a bit dissapointed by the lower prize pool. Otherwise EU was awesome, better that what I expected and MLG seems good too, but I haven't been able to watch a lot of it. Looking forward to the season final in Korea.
There's no hype, no excitement surrounding WCS AM. It's not even the players involved, it's the overall production. I can't pinpoint the reason but the environment just seems so boring.
NA: I didnt like the music playing through all the commented games, because it was far too loud and caused the casters to sound as if they had to speak rather loudly. It is hard to "go hyper" if you are already talking louder than normal.
EU: The studio looked a bit on the small / uncomfortable / improvised side when it comes to the audience, but I think germany (and europe in general) isnt there yet to attract as much of a "daily crowd" as it is the case for Korea. Seoul is a city of 20 million people after all and no european city can have something comparable in potential viewer numbers.
EU: The casts were awesome and really exciting and I really loved the "Kaelaris & ToD" duo.
KR: It is the same as usual, but they could maybe find some inspirations for tiny improvements from the other two regions ... like the "picture in picture screen" from NA or the face cams from EU.
KR: I have never really like the "clap aids" because they are basically throwaway resources ... which isnt very ecological + Show Spoiler +
the tiny amount doesnt matter, because it symbolizes the "I dont care about our resources" nature of the thought process ...
. Crowds of that size *should* be able to make enough noise if they want to ...
On June 03 2013 00:12 Rabiator wrote: NA: I didnt like the music playing through all the commented games, because it was far too loud and caused the casters to sound as if they had to speak rather loudly. It is hard to "go hyper" if you are already talking louder than normal.
EU: The studio looked a bit on the small / uncomfortable / improvised side when it comes to the audience, but I think germany (and europe in general) isnt there yet to attract as much of a "daily crowd" as it is the case for Korea. Seoul is a city of 20 million people after all and no european city can have something comparable in potential viewer numbers.
EU: The casts were awesome and really exciting and I really loved the "Kaelaris & ToD" duo.
KR: It is the same as usual, but they could maybe find some inspirations for tiny improvements from the other two regions ... like the "picture in picture screen" from NA or the face cams from EU.
KR: I have never really like the "clap aids" because they are basically throwaway resources ... which isnt very ecological + Show Spoiler +
the tiny amount doesnt matter, because it symbolizes the "I dont care about our resources" nature of the thought process ...
. Crowds of that size *should* be able to make enough noise if they want to ...
I don't know if the clap aid gripe will ever come to anything, as far as I remember I've seen them in KR games going way back ^^
Edit: Then again I don't care about the environment, so I'm not interested to see whether they do go.
On June 02 2013 23:59 BaaL` wrote: I feel like separate thread would be a lot more constructive, this will mostly get down to X is better than Y?
GSL doesn't really need any feedback, it was great as always.
EU did very well, and they have a lot of time to prepare for the next season. I don't have any good ideas to improve further, so can't really help there either.
I thought America was pretty good as well. Caster suits could be better, and overall it could feel a bit more grand like KR/EU did. I don't know if it's possible at all to get at least a small live audience in the MLG studio, but that would certainly add some atmosphere. Things I liked were the city shots and playing in front of windows was great in the daytime, not so much when it got dark
Personally I think X > Y would be appropriate since I do think EU did a better job than America. The problem would happen if somebody said "EU did great, America was shit and should be canceled" or something. None of the regions did a bad job, and all had their own merits. America has potential to be really really good, and they could have a lot of great storylines like EU did. It's just the little things they're missing out on.
I think they were more professional than EU for a lot of it. And Axslav's rules of engagement were really good at the end of WCS every broadcast. Even without somebody like Apollo, they do a great job of delivering analysis during and after games. Axeltoss makes a good play by play commentator most of the time. So (imo) they didn't screw up on everything. They did some things really well, but could improve on a lot others.
Edit: Picture in picture was fantastic when done right (most of the time). EU and Korea could definitely stand to learn from that. Likewise, the face cams in EU looked really good as well.
KR, well it's KR, nothing really to comment about.
NA, feels a bit "boring" to me, having so much koreans might have something to do with it (language barrier etc)
EU, was just a blast, had great fun watching all the games/extra's/crowd.
Think EU also had the strongest line-up of casters/announcers/... But the model WCS EU used might not even work in NA/KR. don't see a THAT guy in a korean crowd all that soon.
WCS America just needs a small audience in studio, or a host. A host like Redeye or even just having tasteless translate for the KR host was pretty good compared to Axeltoss having to run around from place to place. Having someone ELSE be there helps just a little.
I find it disappointing that gom.tv still doesn't portray the emotions of the players in a match. Innovation loses 3 medivacs full of units, an error that potentially cost him the finals, and we never saw his reaction. At least WCS EU uses constant vision of the player cams so people could see ForGG's frustration with the widow mine detonation as it happened live. But OGN does it best with the dramatic zoom in. Next WCS KR is going to be better in this regard.
On June 03 2013 01:03 BlackPride wrote: You want constructive? Get rid of axeltoss. He ruins America for me.
Why? It's not really constructive if you just say you don't like something, without saying why you don't like it. Perhaps you should point out what bothers you in his cast and he can improve. I know a guy like that dislikes every caster that isn't Artosis or Tasteless, you might want perfection but these guys aren't exactly bad at casting I think they're doing a fantastic job.
I didn't get to watch much AM, but I liked how EU and KR had very different "feels".
WCS KR felt more like the traditional, formal, big time tournament. Basically the GSL we love.
WCS EU on the other hand felt more... "homey". I don't want to use the word relax because it will make it sound less serious, but the casters, the atmosphere, the players... felt a lot friendlier and the storylines more personal.
The fact that both tournaments felt different added a lot to this season. Both tournaments were memorable in their own ways, and to me they were both big successes.
No opinion on AM since the times are horrible for me
I especially enjoyed the kind of home-friendly, relaxed atmosphere of WCS EU (MC the weatherman was beyond hilarious and something I'm sad AM hasn't tried to copy). As for KR, it was more or less like any other GSL and everything we've come to expect from them. I feel like going toward the relaxed, joking style of WCS EU would change the way we see the tournament, something I'm not sure I'd enjoy - I've come to expect greatness from GSL, and the serious approach is one part of that. If you'd change GSL to something more like WCS EU, the tournament wouldn't be the same and it wouldn't work as well on a big stage. As for AM, it feels a little dull somehow. I can't quite put my finger on why, as I like the players and most of the casters, but it just doesn't feel as "alive" as WCS EU, KR or even normal MLGs.
I can only tune in towards the end of WCS KR matches, and as always it's usually pretty good. Good casting, booths are nice, small crowd, cheerfuls being made etc, overall pretty good.
WCS EU casting was a lot better than I expected, small crowd that cheered, a more relaxed-esque feel rather than no joking around kind of thing. BM was still there, hopefully won't be there next season, but overall still pretty good too.
WCS NA casting still isn't what I prefer, I personally don't like the Axslav/Axeltoss combo, and would much prefer Bitterdam. I wish there was a more crowd-friendly aspect to this like a crowd again, but we can't always have everything. Games as always are usually pretty good.
I think EU did really well considering the amount of time they had. The atmosphere was great, the games were great, and the audience was really polite.
What I honestly really want is a set city where all games are played like in WCS KR in Seoul. Like if everything in NA was set in New York City or D.C. or L.A. I think it would end up being a lot cooler and a lot more professional. In addition, having an audience makes the games a lot more intense which is something I would like to see in NA. The same thing for EU would be cool.
As for casting Axeltoss is probably my favorite for NA and Apollo/Kaelaris are awesome. More casters would be cool for challenger league (like haveing a rotating casting duo) and then having a set Code S casting. Say for NA maybe ro32 + 16 are casted by like Axslav and Mr. Bitter and then ro8 onward are casted .by Day9 and Axeltoss. This could all be done live in the set city and wouild give it a really proffessional and sophisticated look much like Korea.
In addition, I do not know how much I like the gruop stages for EU in challenger league. It feels farely wierd but perhaps it will change in time. As for NA, having people who lose in the first round of challenger league go to eh up and downs seems silly, it'd be better if they were just knocked out and would have to try to get back in. It would make it much more intense.
tl dr: a set city for live matches/ group stages, more casters for Code S, rotating commuinity casters for Code A, wierd formats for both EU and NA should be the same as KR.
Man that'd be awesome.
Sorry if this sounded like a rant I really just wrote down what was on my mind.
I especially enjoyed the kind of home-friendly, relaxed atmosphere of WCS EU (MC the weatherman was beyond hilarious and something I'm sad AM hasn't tried to copy). As for KR, it was more or less like any other GSL and everything we've come to expect from them. I feel like going toward the relaxed, joking style of WCS EU would change the way we see the tournament, something I'm not sure I'd enjoy - I've come to expect greatness from GSL, and the serious approach is one part of that. If you'd change GSL to something more like WCS EU, the tournament wouldn't be the same and it wouldn't work as well on a big stage. As for AM, it feels a little dull somehow. I can't quite put my finger on why, as I like the players and most of the casters, but it just doesn't feel as "alive" as WCS EU, KR or even normal MLGs.
AM is dull because it's the same 2 guys all the time sitting at the same table casting players in the same way. It feels dull because it IS dull, there is zero variety in the whole show. They haven't even remotely tried to do anything interesting, different or varied.
2 guys sat at a desk is almost always going to be dull 5 days a week or whatever the schedule is.
Props aside only some critique that came into my head:
Korea Production wise only thing to complain about would be the map preview. I do not like the new roating "map blueprint". It confused me a bit, especially during the first broadcasts it was implemented. Mayby cuting off the rotating part and those lines representing paths would do the thing. One thing more, that has been talked about plenty of times - there's no feel for WCS. It's ran as if it was still GSL. Had the focus been moved a bit to WCS i would be happy. I got this season like "Here we are at GSL code (...) bla bla bla (..) oh, i would forget it's also part of WCS" I'm curious how OSL handles the next season.
America Would be nice if they had made difference between Challenger-Premier-Quallifier stages. Things like different colors, lightning change or slightly different overlay/observer interface would make it possible to say what stage is being played. Small thing - I would appreciate if they had changed a bit the music during the breaks, Varying music styles would make the breaks more enjoyable. Ah and remember it's the WCS for the Americas region not only US
Europe Only thing i would say is that they should watch not to overdose the "fun" part (too much MC-humor is not good). At some points i got the impression that the show is about dicking around and sc2 matches are only in breaks
On June 03 2013 00:12 Rabiator wrote: NA: I didnt like the music playing through all the commented games, because it was far too loud and caused the casters to sound as if they had to speak rather loudly. It is hard to "go hyper" if you are already talking louder than normal.
EU: The studio looked a bit on the small / uncomfortable / improvised side when it comes to the audience, but I think germany (and europe in general) isnt there yet to attract as much of a "daily crowd" as it is the case for Korea. Seoul is a city of 20 million people after all and no european city can have something comparable in potential viewer numbers.
EU: The casts were awesome and really exciting and I really loved the "Kaelaris & ToD" duo.
KR: It is the same as usual, but they could maybe find some inspirations for tiny improvements from the other two regions ... like the "picture in picture screen" from NA or the face cams from EU.
KR: I have never really like the "clap aids" because they are basically throwaway resources ... which isnt very ecological + Show Spoiler +
the tiny amount doesnt matter, because it symbolizes the "I dont care about our resources" nature of the thought process ...
. Crowds of that size *should* be able to make enough noise if they want to ...
I can only agree with what has already been said a dozen times about WCS KR: it's still great, just as before.
I thoroughly enjoyed WCS EU, at times even more than their Korean counterpart. Although I am aware that this includes factors that aren't at the hands of the organizers/casters, I liked the overarching "koreans vs. foreigners"-storyline.
I did not watch a single minute of WCS AM since (and because of) the qualifiers.
On June 03 2013 00:12 Rabiator wrote: NA: I didnt like the music playing through all the commented games, because it was far too loud and caused the casters to sound as if they had to speak rather loudly. It is hard to "go hyper" if you are already talking louder than normal.
EU: The studio looked a bit on the small / uncomfortable / improvised side when it comes to the audience, but I think germany (and europe in general) isnt there yet to attract as much of a "daily crowd" as it is the case for Korea. Seoul is a city of 20 million people after all and no european city can have something comparable in potential viewer numbers.
EU: The casts were awesome and really exciting and I really loved the "Kaelaris & ToD" duo.
KR: It is the same as usual, but they could maybe find some inspirations for tiny improvements from the other two regions ... like the "picture in picture screen" from NA or the face cams from EU.
KR: I have never really like the "clap aids" because they are basically throwaway resources ... which isnt very ecological + Show Spoiler +
the tiny amount doesnt matter, because it symbolizes the "I dont care about our resources" nature of the thought process ...
. Crowds of that size *should* be able to make enough noise if they want to ...
I'm just really curious. What is a clap aid?
The oval plastic things people smash together for a heavy clapping sound. Essentially, plastic things that make noise.
Wasn't able to see any of GSL but they never have production issues, and now they have an even stronger set of players. Loved WCS EU, I caught almost every match of Premier League and thought the gameplay was creative even if it wasn't quite the same level of play as GSL. WCS AM was the biggest flop for me. All the issues from the qualifiers set a bad tone from the start, I'm not a fan of Axslav or Axeltoss' casting, and there weren't many local hero stories like EU. I don't mind when Koreans dominate, I just wish that there were interesting Koreans to watch. Hero and Ryung are the only Koreans that I would consider Code S caliber, and even then it's more like Code S Ro32 instead of actual contenders for the global championships
Maybe booths, but I think it is up to players feedback, seemed strange to sit right next to the opponent and hearing the crowd so clearly. Production wise I loved it, sure hubner's segment did not fit, I am sure they will find something else to fill downtime^^.
AM
Qualifiers, more players. The production seems really improvised, which is most likely due to the short time to prepare, but still, today on the last day: it looks like someone put up some card boxes in his livingroom. I enjoyed the interview sections, but I wish there were more : /. More casters maybe, great move to bring in bitterdam, axeltoss/axslav just don`t make the cut as tier 1 casters in my book. Live audience, at least for the finals maybe? Live view from new york, instead of the same sped up videos, if you already there. Overall, a "real" studio would be great, maybe on the lowest floor. so there is a crowd and people walking in front of the windows.
Really wish the contracts wouldn't be for a whole year, seeing what MLG did, makes you wonder what NASL could have delivered. And if I recall correct MLG was choosen because they have more experiences with offline events, but with the way they presented it, it might as well have been an online tournement.
KR
Mh, thats more of a problem I think with Blizzard trying to dictate everything, but having Proleague run in the meantime, and the two finalist meet one day before they play, the shortened preperation time for the final really showed in the quality of the games. : /
WCS AM: Bad - Not the best casting duo in Axeltoss and Axslav, Bitterdam really spicing things up though. Overall production is severely lacking. It just looks cheap overall. No crowd. No content. Just looks like they don't care/want to spend any money on this. It's kind of embarrassing to MLG in my opinion relative to what they're clearly capable of. Makes you wonder why they even made a bid for WCS if they are having financial difficulties or w/e it is that's holding them back.
WCS EU: Great - Surprised at how great the production quality was. Great casting, great host and content. Happy with everything (Redeye, Hubner, Crowd). Only improvements I can think of are a larger venue for the finals so there can be a really big crowd attending.
GSL: Great - Of course GSL is top notch as always. They are what all the tournaments should be striving for. Great audience, production etc. They could offer more English/European content, but that's understandably not their main audience and I'm 100% fine with it. Great job overall.
It was great. They know what they're doing. There are improvements they could make, but I'm pretty sure they already know pretty much what they are.
Europe
It was a good tournament. Well run, good casters, etc. I would like to see a somewhat larger studio with a bigger audience, but that can be forgiven. I also really think the weekend with the final eight should be held in a larger venue, maybe in a rotating city. Think of something like the smaller dreamhack invite tournaments - an auditorium with a single stage, etc. You don't need a convention center, but something more serious. And if it's a different city each time, you should be able to get a real audience. The other big step up to take is having to first round of premier league happen in studio instead of online.
Also, take the qualifier league seriously. Yeah, they're played online, but they can still be casted by professional casters from a studio. Playing multiple games at a time with community casters just makes it seem much less prestigious than it should be.
America
This is clearly the worst right now. Part of it is a weaker foreigner pool and more Koreans, which MLG can't really do anything about, but the production still needs lots of work. The casters aren't awful, but they are far from top tier casters, which is what WCS should have. The lack of an audience really hurts. Instead of expensive NYC office space, go somewhere cheaper with more space and build a real studio where you can have an audience. They did a good job treating the challenger league as a real thing, but other than that Europe beat them in every way. In-person first round and a better venue would of course be good for them too. (The latter is even more important, since it would get them an audience.)
Up close and personal. Lots of fun analysis, hosting and awesome personalities. A lot of awkward but hilarious moments. Great story lines. Fantastic games.
I've decided to not watch the WCS AM finals at all, for the following reasons.
1) I think they did a horrible job with their invites and 'open' qualifiers.
2) I think allowing players from other servers to compete in NA for 'easy money', while potentially good for competition, is terrible for developing interest and support of SC2 in North America.
3) I also don't like what WCS is doing to limit the opportunities for organizers to operate large or season long tournaments. Blizzard has basically given MLG a monopoly on SC2 content and sucked out at least a $100,000 in prize money out of the scene.
I just wanted to add I watched the WSC EU finals and loved it. I thought it was a great example of how you can have a professional, sleek finals on a limited budget.
They proved you don't need to rent a convention center or gymnasium to make your finals feel epic. The small, intimate but engaged audience made it feel like your were watching a high stakes poker game. Even if it's just friends and family of the players watching.
WCS America felt like it was just another MLG weekly show with the same regular casters, the same desks, and the Arena player setup without crowd. Unlike WCS Europe, I felt like they didn't really try to put on something new. When I first heard about WCS and how they supposedly planned to export the GSL to Europe and the Americas, I was expecting a similar production with a studio crowd, player booths, a standalone final in a big venue, and possibly more innovation on top. Only WCS Europe came somewhat close and you could feel they actually tried. I hope the non-KR regions can improve in the future and copy more successful concepts from GOM.
As for WCS in general, I appreciate the initial intentions but I think the collateral damage when it comes to third-party tournaments and leagues such as NASL was a bit much in the end. I also disliked the fact that the system was not strictly enforced in all regions as was evident in different qualifiers, rules, maps, names, or prize pools. On top of that, the actual GSL system was changed especially when it comes to the Up and Downs and Code B to Code A player exchange. We also to this day still not have that promised global WCS portal, nor do we know how GSL and OSL taking seasonal turns will inter-operate in terms of players qualifying and so on. Blizzard's acquisition of the former IPL staff to noticably improve their dealings with all things e-sports did not bear much visible fruit really.
WCS KR is far better just because it has the nice production, far better games and good streaming. EU and AM both lack crowds, the streaming is very laggy at times and the games are much worse.
EU and AM were upping their production and quality a bit towards the end though, I still don't really care for them except the top 8 weekend. The finals being just two days is nice in some way but also takes away the preparation that a finals like GSL has, it perhaps leads to better games though whereas the GSL final is often anti-climactic with lots of curious all-ins / counter-strategies prepared.
Well its just like GSL,as always its pretty sick. Good production,awesome players...cool events (like the group pickup).
Lack of bit of interactivity with the players tho.
Eur : A good surprise. The production value was pretty cool,i liked the fact that we had direct interviews and some kind of after show with the players.
The big minus would be that the audience was too small ( we need a bigger studio i feel,not necessary huge but kinda like the old GSL one). Also qualifiers need to be master and GM only no more ro 1024 please...
US :
Blunder of the century. No audience,messy qualifiers,horrendous casters (well i realize that EU & Kr took the best so its harder to find decent ones),lack of interactivity with players.
I like the features such as picture in picture tho,HUD is also pretty good.
On June 03 2013 00:12 ninjamyst wrote: There's no hype, no excitement surrounding WCS AM. It's not even the players involved, it's the overall production. I can't pinpoint the reason but the environment just seems so boring.
It doesn't help that there isn't a live audience at WCS AM. Live audiences getting hyped is always key for a memorable event. I never liked the MLG Arena's for the same reason.
WCS EU - I was blown away by this! How they managed to put such a fantastic show together in such a short time is beyond me! Some of the best SC2 production I have ever watched. From the short funny interviews to the serious pregame ones to the player webcam to the silly breaks and post day talk. The settings was great the storylines were great and emphazied really really well by the casters and host. The casting was superb. The studio audience. I have nothing bad to say. What a show! Hope they keep moving forward.
WCS Korea - Great as always. Best casters in the world and best players. Even though their production is very crisp, they should really take a note out of WCS EU's book on how to make the downtime entertaining. Luckily they have The Archon for much of the time so it's going to be great regardless...
WCS America - Pretty standard production. The casting was very good and it looks quite nice but they don't really have any of the amazing features that EU have. At the same time they are suffering under the influx of Koreans yet the level of player wasn't higher than EU and definitely not Korea. Again I would just refer them to EU to see how it's done, even just grabbing some of their features could really improve it by so much.
I enjoyed WCS EU the most. They had the right atmosphere all the time. It was a SC2 event but also a fun place to be at. The breaks were very funny and the casters were great. WCS Korea is almost the same. I just didn't feel the same 'warmness' as from the EU one but it doesn't mean that it wasn't good. Production-wise it was top-notch. I never doubted GSL and their capability to do something so professional.
WCS NA........... *sigh*. The cheapest of all productions. Nothing different than the average MLG qualifiers we see. Very, very disappoining production. I don't blame the casters at all. They were good but the 'scene' they had was just bad. They can't show their characters when other things stand out in a bad way.
On June 03 2013 00:12 Rabiator wrote: NA: I didnt like the music playing through all the commented games, because it was far too loud and caused the casters to sound as if they had to speak rather loudly. It is hard to "go hyper" if you are already talking louder than normal.
EU: The studio looked a bit on the small / uncomfortable / improvised side when it comes to the audience, but I think germany (and europe in general) isnt there yet to attract as much of a "daily crowd" as it is the case for Korea. Seoul is a city of 20 million people after all and no european city can have something comparable in potential viewer numbers.
EU: The casts were awesome and really exciting and I really loved the "Kaelaris & ToD" duo.
KR: It is the same as usual, but they could maybe find some inspirations for tiny improvements from the other two regions ... like the "picture in picture screen" from NA or the face cams from EU.
KR: I have never really like the "clap aids" because they are basically throwaway resources ... which isnt very ecological + Show Spoiler +
the tiny amount doesnt matter, because it symbolizes the "I dont care about our resources" nature of the thought process ...
. Crowds of that size *should* be able to make enough noise if they want to ...
I'm just really curious. What is a clap aid?
The oval plastic things people smash together for a heavy clapping sound. Essentially, plastic things that make noise.
I haven't watched WCS AM, but I watched WCS EU and KR.
EU had a really good feel to it. I liked how it was more of a casual, informal style so it felt kinda like you were chilling in a living room with your friends watching some StarCraft and having a good time. Really wish I could be there in person haha. However I think that having the playoffs in two days is too quick. Three is probably better. One day for just the Ro8, one for the 5th place match and one for the semis and finals I think. The second day of finals was like 10 hours, really long day. Also I think it would be nice if they had some booths.
KR like all other GSLs have been really good too. A more professional style, which is nice. Not really too much to say about this, but I think they could take a few pages out of WCS EU's book on filler content.
WCS Korea I can't say anything about it, since I have to work during that time.
WCS America I watched some WCS AM every now and then, but I never really enjoyed it. Axlav and Axeltoss are in no way bad, but they just lack that certain something that Bitterdam for example have. The view out of the windows was nice, but I would have enjoyed an audience way more.
WCS Europe was just awesome. I payed 100€ fuel to get there to be a part of the live finals, and I would pay that again. It was an awesome experience. Getting milkshakes mixed by WhiteRa, the wide variety of break-fillers, and the WCS Extra session, everything contributed to the best esports live experience I had so far.
WCS EU 9/10 Great production, good commentators. Had the players with the most interesting personalities. Hubners segment was unnecessary and did not contribute much. Twitch.tv made it lag too much though.
WCS Korea 8/10 The best commentators and production value. Lacking in player personality compared to EU. Zero lag.
WCS America 3/10 Mediocre casting, no live audience, horrible lag due to twitch.tv. Lacking in player personality compared to EU. Not worth seeing.
I can't even watch because Twitch.tv sucks so much. I get constant lag at all resolutions. Some days its absolutely terrible when you just can't watch at all, other days its a bit better when you can forcefully watch one or two games, but on average its just so bad.
I can't see how esports can grow with twitch.tv sucking so much and I feel Blizzard need to find a better and more reliable partner to stream the games.
Thing is its not even just SC2, Dota2 as well lags as hell most of the time and I can barely watch tournaments of it as well. Its sooo bad.
It feels like MLG didn't put much of an effort at all into making WCS NA entertaining at all. in ALL aspects of production. Wish they had entertaining casters, a live audience, and some interesting things to watch in between games. It felt like we were watching some weekly tournament rather than a finals of the premier Starcraft tournament representing all of the Americas.
EU was fun to watch, although it also didn't have a feel of a large scale event, because of the small crowd, I would liken it to a Homestory Cup.
Personally one thing that would be nice to see between games would be a documentary on one up-and-coming player in the NA & EU regions, kind of like the Hyungjoon becomes a progamer/Yellow coming to SC2 documentaries, to build up unknown heroes in each of the regions.
On June 03 2013 04:11 Markwerf wrote: WCS KR is far better just because it has the nice production, far better games and good streaming.
It's first time i see anyone saying GOM has good streaming (yet the stream quality was better than usual). EU-AM stream was good, i did not expirience any lag. EU ahd some minor sound problems at the begining though.
On June 03 2013 04:11 Markwerf wrote: EU and AM both lack crowds, the streaming is very laggy at times and the games are much worse.
Live spectators are rather a external factor, WCS AM does not have place for crowd though.
On June 03 2013 04:18 shid0x wrote: Eur : The big minus would be that the audience was too small ( we need a bigger studio i feel,not necessary huge but kinda like the old GSL one).
Having a big, empty studio is good ? Imo the space they had was adequate to number of spectators. Had there been more interest they would surely open the bigger one that was used for LCS.
The biggest issue with WCS NA isn't the production, it's the player pool. WCS EU lucked out, in the sense the tournament was predominantly filled with recognizable, top-tier EU players, with small sprinkling of fan-favorite Koreans to help legitimize it as a world class competition.
NA on the other hand became a cattle call, an opportunity for every Code A/B Korean to get some easy money, and the only big tournament opportunity for Chinese, SEA and NA players. As a result you have a tournament with only a handful of NA players, while the rest of the field is low-mid tier fodder for low-mid tier Korean players to eliminate.
It's basically GSL-lite, with worst competition, players you don't know or care about, and a shoestring production that makes the average NASL broadcast look like the NBA finals. It's like watching aging, has-been WWF stars move to WCW back in the day. It's exactly the same but everything is just a little bit shittier.
The Korean WCS still the best tournaments in the world with the best players and with the best environment. They are casting even Code A in a studio with croud live!!!! This is what ESports really need. The casters are the worst thing. Talking too much shit and considering almost everyone "the best player in the world" followed by the commentated player doing stupid thing and losing pretty bad.I am soooo tired of their "expect gg any second" and actually watch the GSL on the OGN cannel.
WCS EU was pretty OK, but the lag is still terrible. The studio is such a nice, but somehow Code B or less lookalike. Cant understand how couldnt they prepare theather or cinema studio for the finals and we were watching the players sittin on a table with all the stuff like wires and mouses there...They need to improve it and we need MORE croud. Dont understand why wasnt posible if there is Blizzard the one to pay almost everything.Apollo and Tod are so good and Kaelaris is fun, but too "catastrophic"....
WCS NA... IEM, Dreamhack,ASus rog, Zotac and even Homestorycup did it better. Such a BAAAAD casters with their "X unit, be carefull"... I was.."WTF????" Day9,please come and save this disaster...With Rotterdam and Bitter there doing nothing...How is this posible? They did almost everything bad, beginning with those 512 players only,no league requirements, quailifiers...The studio is so lame and boring...No personality,no history...nothing. No emotions...The players playing so close to each other.. like they are in their teamhouse practicing. The fault is not the players quality. DEmuslim is good,as well as HEro,alive,polt,TheSTC,Taeja,Scarlett,REvival,JAedong,Moonglade and many more. Just the production sucks and nobody seems to care.The casters transfer no emotion to the public and its lame.If you lose something,dont worry...Go and check the KR or EU vods.
The best of all is the EU and NA commitement to realice the vods via youtube or twitch. Still cant understand why koreans are so bad at not allowing us to watch them free...Hope all this improve for the next season.
On June 03 2013 06:04 Defacer wrote: Let's get real,
The biggest issue with WCS NA isn't the production, it's the player pool. WCS EU lucked out, in the sense the tournament was predominantly filled with recognizable, top-tier EU players, with small sprinkling of fan-favorite Koreans to help legitimize it as a world class competition.
NA on the other hand became a cattle call, an opportunity for every Code A/B Korean to get some easy money, and the only big tournament opportunity for Chinese, SEA and NA players. As a result you have a tournament with only a handful of NA players, while the rest of the field is low-mid tier fodder for low-mid tier Korean players to eliminate.
It's basically GSL-lite, with worst competition, players you don't know or care about, and a shoestring production that makes the average NASL broadcast look like the NBA finals. It's like watching aging, has-been WWF stars move to WCW back in the day. It's exactly the same but everything is just a little bit shittier.
Sorry, but in NA they were ALL of the Americans(norht and south) players which you can know, but no one was able to get there. Only Suppy. The american players are just not good enough, but I hope they will improve with such a competitive environment.
I would love to not continue the bashing on WCS NA but... it's hard. MLGs production on its own isn't bad per se, it's like the old arenas pretty much. It's when you compare them to WCS EU and KR that they look subpar. I can't think of any area where EU and KR aren't outshining them.
I guess we shouldn't compare EU and NA to KR though, seeing as it was already a finished product. It has been a very rushed thing but ESL has made MLG look like amateurs in this first round. They deserve more time however, and I expect them to have a finished product, just like korea, when we approach blizzcon.
WCS EU: really intresting and casted with a lot of humor. Intelligent casterst who know what they talk about and with some very decent post game analyses. Also, I really like the small crowd sitting there. The overal structure was fine and Redeye is the man in the right spot.
WCS KR: Just GSL, meh. At first I was really hiped by every single GSL. Nowadays I barely pay interest in watching the finals. The whole GSL becomes way to streamlined. No variety, no special events during breaks, just high-quality plays with all korean pro's.
WCS US: I really like Axslav as a caster. He knows very good what the game is about. Some casters just seem to be just shoutcasters with very low indept analyses and very often make either dumb jokes about interesting situations or are all hyped without exactly casting what is happening.... I am not really into those casters screaming in my ear about things I can see on my screen aswell.
One thing that MLG got better than ESL, is the desk set up. All those wires on the desks are ugly, whilst MLG's LEDs/Monitors with race icons/name/team/picture/countdown are cool.
Otherwise, WCS EU amazing. They took a leaf out of DH's book, and managed to be hilarious, entertaining, whilst being really professional. Props to RedEye, Carmac and the rest of the crew. They outdid themselves.
On June 03 2013 04:11 Markwerf wrote: WCS KR is far better just because it has the nice production, far better games and good streaming.
It's first time i see anyone saying GOM has good streaming (yet the stream quality was better than usual). EU-AM stream was good, i did not expirience any lag. EU ahd some minor sound problems at the begining though.
On June 03 2013 04:18 shid0x wrote: Eur : The big minus would be that the audience was too small ( we need a bigger studio i feel,not necessary huge but kinda like the old GSL one).
Having a big, empty studio is good ? Imo the space they had was adequate to number of spectators. Had there been more interest they would surely open the bigger one that was used for LCS.
GOM upgraded their stream around blizzard cup time or something? It's been pretty good since then imo.
On June 03 2013 01:03 BlackPride wrote: You want constructive? Get rid of axeltoss. He ruins America for me.
There are plenty of people that really like Axeltoss. Him and Axlslav are definitely one of the most improved duo's in casting. At least give some constructive criticism to why you're not a fan of himbefore posting this hate. Don't forget this is people's jobs and lives your talking about. I've heard that Alex is one of the hardest working people in eSports, and that he saw the flak he was getting on reddit from the first night of feedback and took it pretty hard, couldn't sleep, came in the next day super early to practice his lines and look at feedback.
All Axeltoss and Axslav want to do is put on a good show for the fans and I respect that. Sometimes I think that sc2 fans don't even want this community to succeed.
This problem isn't isolated to WCS or even their fault, but yea Twitch.tv has been absolute crap for me lately. I really don't want to get super worked up about it because it's only recently that I've had problems. But it's starting to annoy me since I usually can't even watch PL in HD as I should be able to with my subscription ><.
WCS AM just finished and it looks like just two guys playing for fun. Does not look a major tournament with tons of $$ on the line. MLG really need to step up their production value. This was like the worst "major" tournament in a long time.
More fans need to be involved in the WCS AM grand finals. I think the players would appreciate it if they have fans cheering for them. Does not have to be a big place but they need some fans in there.
On June 03 2013 06:04 Defacer wrote: Let's get real,
The biggest issue with WCS NA isn't the production, it's the player pool. WCS EU lucked out, in the sense the tournament was predominantly filled with recognizable, top-tier EU players, with small sprinkling of fan-favorite Koreans to help legitimize it as a world class competition.
NA on the other hand became a cattle call, an opportunity for every Code A/B Korean to get some easy money, and the only big tournament opportunity for Chinese, SEA and NA players. As a result you have a tournament with only a handful of NA players, while the rest of the field is low-mid tier fodder for low-mid tier Korean players to eliminate.
It's basically GSL-lite, with worst competition, players you don't know or care about, and a shoestring production that makes the average NASL broadcast look like the NBA finals. It's like watching aging, has-been WWF stars move to WCW back in the day. It's exactly the same but everything is just a little bit shittier.
Are you kidding? WCS NA biggest issue IS production. Compare the finals between WCS EU and WCS NA. EU was so much more fun. Don't blame it on the player pool. EG and TL had alot of popular players in the tournament. There were some good storyline before ro8 with Snute, Supply, and Moonglade.
AM needs a crowd, they mightn't be able to get one in the studio but i am sure they can find one somewhere. Without one there is no atmosphere and it doesn't feel as exciting to watch.
That final did not feel anything at all like a final, whether it's production, casters, lack of audience etc. It just did not feel anything like the other two regions' finals.
When people were white knighting for NASL when the announcement came out I thought they were pretty stupid because MLG is/was the more established brand with a longer history of better events (I know NASL improved but they still have insane down time at events + NASL sound guy).
But WCS AM was so crappy I take back that opinion and think we'd have been better with NASL.
My only problem with the GSL and this, I think is legit and was quite disappointing for some, was that the people who reserved seats through GOMTV were literally squeezed into the back some of us having to move because we were literally right behind the camera-man and couldn't even see the screen.
Understandably, there are those who get the first 8 rows special, but there were late-comers who were getting balcony seats an it was a little like... wut..?
Me and a buddy were able to just get up and move so it worked out and was a great show, but i feel for the guys who got stuck behind the camera, they were like numbers 1-10 on the reserve list to.
Watching B tier koreans dominating wcs NA was pretty boring. Europe had that luck that they had more popular koreans in it. It's one thing to have MVP/MMA/ForGG, and other thing to have Rryung, Alicia, aLive etc.
second thing, casters. Don't have anything against ax/ax but in terms of fun they're just level below other casters in WCS. Even Kaelaris managed to have cool synergy with Tod so also that was good. Production is also pretty bad in wcs NA.
imho WCS KR and EU should stay this way, both have their style which is pretty fun and cool, KR more professional with better games, EU more relaxed+home talent.
WCS NA should have priority list: -remove random koreans -better casters (bitterdam or something) -new venue
WCS NA will probably move to San Francisco area within the year, it would explain why teams are moving there and allow them to have a live audience. Also it means cheaper flights from Korea.
I didn't like WCS NA mainly because of the player pool. A tournament is fun to spectate when you have purely NA players or NA players with top Koreans mixed in. Having NA with weaker Korean players was just boring. There were no hyped up matches or good games anywhere.
On June 03 2013 06:04 Defacer wrote: Let's get real,
The biggest issue with WCS NA isn't the production, it's the player pool. WCS EU lucked out, in the sense the tournament was predominantly filled with recognizable, top-tier EU players, with small sprinkling of fan-favorite Koreans to help legitimize it as a world class competition.
NA on the other hand became a cattle call, an opportunity for every Code A/B Korean to get some easy money, and the only big tournament opportunity for Chinese, SEA and NA players. As a result you have a tournament with only a handful of NA players, while the rest of the field is low-mid tier fodder for low-mid tier Korean players to eliminate.
It's basically GSL-lite, with worst competition, players you don't know or care about, and a shoestring production that makes the average NASL broadcast look like the NBA finals. It's like watching aging, has-been WWF stars move to WCW back in the day. It's exactly the same but everything is just a little bit shittier.
Are you kidding? WCS NA biggest issue IS production. Compare the finals between WCS EU and WCS NA. EU was so much more fun. Don't blame it on the player pool. EG and TL had alot of popular players in the tournament. There were some good storyline before ro8 with Snute, Supply, and Moonglade.
Agreed. Don't get me wrong, less Koreans in AM is something that absolutely needs to happen . . . but let's not try and use that as an excuse for a poor production. The WCS America Finals broadcast looked like it could have been a qualifier for Code B . . . in other words, it was not even remotely close to where it should have been.
The EU finals (like the Top 8) could have provided a much bigger venue like the WCS Europe/DH kind of finals! Otherwise, the OP nailed the points!
Korea is good as usual.
BUT WCS AM is the one that needs a lot of improvement. Their approach seemed more like the MLG arena, which I think works well for the group stages and challenger league, but an inappropriate setup for finals. Also, the main casters should understand that this is NOT Rules of Engagement. I enjoyed Bitter/Rotti's cast way more than Alex/Ax's. Yes, analysis is very important when there are crucial moments but when there is downtime, come up with something interesting with the Tasteless approach of jokes or maybe come up with player trivia/background more often. In other words, AM needs to understand that eSports is part of the entertainment industry! Korea has excellent preparation and has the best players. Europe may not have the best, but the overall ambiance with great casters and personalities makes up for it. AM may not have the best players, but it should construct an image that viewer will definitely remember!
Also, please fix the player roster for AM. Though I love Koreans playing, I would really like it, if I saw more AM players doing well!
I think Axeltoss and axslav would be perfect for casting Challenger League. Not meant as an insult, meant as a compliment. Just as I think Wolf and Khaldor are perfect for the "feel" of code a, I think Axeltoss and Axslav are perfect for the "feel" that Challenger should aim for.
EU was my favorite and kinda hope they stay the way they are, despite some people wanting bigger stuff. And GSL just feels like GSL (the caster are perfect for this environment) and the Global tournament should be just like it. And since esports is bigger in Korea ESL approach would hardly work. NA were the ones with the least experience in such things and the least space Imo (might be wrong though heh), so they will catch up on what is nice and not, will probably take a few seasons though. But they have 2 models to copy ideas from. But they'll catchup I am sure of it.
On June 03 2013 06:04 Defacer wrote: Let's get real,
The biggest issue with WCS NA isn't the production, it's the player pool. WCS EU lucked out, in the sense the tournament was predominantly filled with recognizable, top-tier EU players, with small sprinkling of fan-favorite Koreans to help legitimize it as a world class competition.
NA on the other hand became a cattle call, an opportunity for every Code A/B Korean to get some easy money, and the only big tournament opportunity for Chinese, SEA and NA players. As a result you have a tournament with only a handful of NA players, while the rest of the field is low-mid tier fodder for low-mid tier Korean players to eliminate.
It's basically GSL-lite, with worst competition, players you don't know or care about, and a shoestring production that makes the average NASL broadcast look like the NBA finals. It's like watching aging, has-been WWF stars move to WCW back in the day. It's exactly the same but everything is just a little bit shittier.
Are you kidding? WCS NA biggest issue IS production. Compare the finals between WCS EU and WCS NA. EU was so much more fun. Don't blame it on the player pool. EG and TL had alot of popular players in the tournament. There were some good storyline before ro8 with Snute, Supply, and Moonglade.
Suppy and Scarlett where the only two players that kept me interested. Past the round of 16, all the players felt like a random invitational of code A/low-S Korean players.
The idea of watching a tournament which features the same 14, 15 Koreans beating everyone else form NA, SEA, or China is frankly a boring product. The narrative is obvious, in the sense you can predict the final four players four out of five times. And besides, the point of having regional tournaments isn't to open up extra slots for Koreans to qualify for. It's to develop and support each region's esport scene.
I would rather watch a real NA tournament, that answered the question: Who are the best players in NA? That's a narrative that's actually compelling.
WCS NA is not that tournament. I don't think NA players should be entitled to easy wins or dumbed-down competition. But if this Blizzard and MLG's solution to expanding interest in SC2 and making it esport's sustainable in NA for the long term, it's a failure.
And who cares if 'undeserving' NA players make it to the Global finals? That's the whole point of the Global finals, to separate the wheat from the chaff. I'd argue that improving competition and interest in each region is more important for the individual leagues, which means featuring and showcasing home-grown talent.
KR sets the bar, just didnt like the delays and KPOP consistently in the breaks of the finals. Please stop forcing the players to kiss the trophy for so long!
EU done very well, lots of good side content (didnt really like hubners part though) the only gripe is they need an actual crowd and venue for it to look like an event suited to the prize pool
AM same problems as EU, needs a crowd and venue, addition of bitterdam helped a little, would be nice if they could put Day9, Husky and/or TB to add more hype, but I understand this is mainly an MLG broadcast meaning they'll stick to their own casters.
AM : the no crowd at the finals was an absolute joke. Both EU and AM with stand alone finals would have been nice but thy can build on that from small studios
i watched a fair amount. but you get tired of any caster pair after listening to them for hours every day for weeks.
i'd like to see more casters in wcs na and eu, even if they're on skype. and i'm sure axlav/axeltoss wouldn't mind a break or different co-caster now and then.
there are a lot of casters we used to see at mlg's/nasl/iem that we don't see much of any more. i want more bitterdam, gretorp/frodan, tb+anyone, day9+husky, even that shamtoo guy. etc
how great would it be to have even just ONE day casted by incontrol and idra? more caster variety is my only suggestion.
otherwise they did great. i trust that obvious things (like the awful na qualifiers, incompetent admins, and the dumbass rule making two korean residents play their match on na) will be fixed in the future.
On June 03 2013 01:03 BlackPride wrote: You want constructive? Get rid of axeltoss. He ruins America for me.
Why? It's not really constructive if you just say you don't like something, without saying why you don't like it. Perhaps you should point out what bothers you in his cast and he can improve. I know a guy like that dislikes every caster that isn't Artosis or Tasteless, you might want perfection but these guys aren't exactly bad at casting I think they're doing a fantastic job.
Honestly, I enjoy every single caster in this industry except for Axeltoss. I know Tasteless gets a lot of flak for not knowing much about the game, but i disagree, and at the VERY least he's hilarious. And i think part of the reason he seems like he doesn't know much is that he's constantly juxtaposed with Artosis. That would be rough. As for Axeltoss, often I am convinced he doesn't even play this game. The dude only can go play-by-play. All the constructive criticism I can give comes back to getting rid of axeltoss. That would make America so quality.
America is terrible, needs to exclude Koreans so the foreigners have somewhere/someone to support. I'd much rather see Moonglade etc in the finals than these boring second/third tier koreans. WCS Korea was basically GSL with a new logo. EU was good.
edit: also having randomised seeding for the finals doesnt make any sense. Soulkey wins WCS korea then potentially gets thrown into a group with innovation, symbol and roro. If you're going to have less code S koreans at least spread them out so we have a decent ro8.
On June 03 2013 11:21 TAMinator wrote: KR sets the bar, just didnt like the delays and KPOP consistently in the breaks of the finals. Please stop forcing the players to kiss the trophy for so long!
EU done very well, lots of good side content (didnt really like hubners part though) the only gripe is they need an actual crowd and venue for it to look like an event suited to the prize pool
AM same problems as EU, needs a crowd and venue, addition of bitterdam helped a little, would be nice if they could put Day9, Husky and/or TB to add more hype, but I understand this is mainly an MLG broadcast meaning they'll stick to their own casters.
no one forces them to kiss it, it carried over from BW and is a little slice of the conformist mentality in Korean culture. another example would be the k-pop haircut that many sport these days
On June 03 2013 01:03 BlackPride wrote: You want constructive? Get rid of axeltoss. He ruins America for me.
Why? It's not really constructive if you just say you don't like something, without saying why you don't like it. Perhaps you should point out what bothers you in his cast and he can improve. I know a guy like that dislikes every caster that isn't Artosis or Tasteless, you might want perfection but these guys aren't exactly bad at casting I think they're doing a fantastic job.
Honestly, I enjoy every single caster in this industry except for Axeltoss. I know Tasteless gets a lot of flak for not knowing much about the game, but i disagree, and at the VERY least he's hilarious. And i think part of the reason he seems like he doesn't know much is that he's constantly juxtaposed with Artosis. That would be rough. As for Axeltoss, often I am convinced he doesn't even play this game. The dude only can go play-by-play. All the constructive criticism I can give comes back to getting rid of axeltoss. That would make America so quality.
Love when people state their caster preference while not understanding how subjective caster preferences are. You literally just said that because you don't like Axeltoss, WCS AM would be a better tournament without him. Do you have a basis for believing a majority of viewers don't like Axeltoss, and therefore MLG should make a change based on the viewers' preference? Or are you just saying MLG should make a change based on your own preference?
Korea Best overall in quality. It's the GSL. Not much to say. But I wish that they had more content during downtime. I know they have scheduled breaks after certain sets in a match but it would be awesome if they showed interviews (similar to proleague) during downtime.
Europe Great. I enjoyed WCS EU a lot. They put on a good show. I liked that they had a host and a crowd (even if it's small, it helps). The social media segment is awkward though.
America I have much to say about this b/c it's obviously the worst of the three. I understand that MLG has a disadvantage regarding quality of foreigners compared to WCS EU and so many koreans choosing to play in WCS AM (which makes people more interested in WCS EU compared to WCS AM). But MLG needs to make up for it by just putting on a good show/production. WCS America felt very dull and boring compared to the others. It's hard to explain but if you simply watched it and compared it to the others, you'll understand. I thought the NYC scenes were great but it quickly got boring and overused. There needs to be more filler content.
Axslav and Axeltoss are not bad casters but they are still the worst of the 3 WCS regions. I believe they do a good job but unfortunately it's not good enough compared to the others. If you don't have a very strong set of casters, then you need a little more variety by mixing it up a little b/c people do get bored of Axslav and Axeltoss. Adding a host would help. And even if you can't find a big named caster, MLG should still get another caster to mix it up (I'm referring to the whole season, not simply the finals). I found it a little more interesting when another caster was there when Axeltoss was on vacation. Finding a 3 way rotation of casters will help.
I completely understand why MLG was chosen to do WCS America but I do honestly believe that NASL would have done a better job. NASL has a host (clutch), 4 casters (bitter, rotterdam, gretorp, frodan), and they have proven that they know how to put on a good show with their production and vast amounts of content that they show.
MLG needs to step up and do better. I believe MLG will improve but I just hope they do it quickly.
On June 03 2013 01:03 BlackPride wrote: You want constructive? Get rid of axeltoss. He ruins America for me.
Why? It's not really constructive if you just say you don't like something, without saying why you don't like it. Perhaps you should point out what bothers you in his cast and he can improve. I know a guy like that dislikes every caster that isn't Artosis or Tasteless, you might want perfection but these guys aren't exactly bad at casting I think they're doing a fantastic job.
Honestly, I enjoy every single caster in this industry except for Axeltoss. I know Tasteless gets a lot of flak for not knowing much about the game, but i disagree, and at the VERY least he's hilarious. And i think part of the reason he seems like he doesn't know much is that he's constantly juxtaposed with Artosis. That would be rough. As for Axeltoss, often I am convinced he doesn't even play this game. The dude only can go play-by-play. All the constructive criticism I can give comes back to getting rid of axeltoss. That would make America so quality.
Love when people state their caster preference while not understanding how subjective caster preferences are. You literally just said that because you don't like Axeltoss, WCS AM would be a better tournament without him. Do you have a basis for believing a majority of viewers don't like Axeltoss, and therefore MLG should make a change based on the viewers' preference? Or are you just saying MLG should make a change based on your own preference?
It's subjective, but there can be some consensus I think regarding the preference. This is a feedback thread after all . . most of it will probably be subjective. I like Axslav, but I don't think this duo is best suited for a premier event. Seems that there's quite a lot of feedback here echoing that thought.
Also, I'm not sure MLG is going to change anything based on the feedback in this thread anyhow. Maybe I'm a bit too pessimistic, but it seems like they are falling on hard times regardless of how well SC2 is doing.
On June 03 2013 00:12 Rabiator wrote: NA: I didnt like the music playing through all the commented games, because it was far too loud and caused the casters to sound as if they had to speak rather loudly. It is hard to "go hyper" if you are already talking louder than normal.
EU: The studio looked a bit on the small / uncomfortable / improvised side when it comes to the audience, but I think germany (and europe in general) isnt there yet to attract as much of a "daily crowd" as it is the case for Korea. Seoul is a city of 20 million people after all and no european city can have something comparable in potential viewer numbers.
EU: The casts were awesome and really exciting and I really loved the "Kaelaris & ToD" duo.
KR: It is the same as usual, but they could maybe find some inspirations for tiny improvements from the other two regions ... like the "picture in picture screen" from NA or the face cams from EU.
KR: I have never really like the "clap aids" because they are basically throwaway resources ... which isnt very ecological + Show Spoiler +
the tiny amount doesnt matter, because it symbolizes the "I dont care about our resources" nature of the thought process ...
. Crowds of that size *should* be able to make enough noise if they want to ...
I don't know if the clap aid gripe will ever come to anything, as far as I remember I've seen them in KR games going way back ^^
Edit: Then again I don't care about the environment, so I'm not interested to see whether they do go.
The environmental issue is only half of the reason and probably bigger is the "we dont like to make an effort to cheer" part. Of course that is a cultural thing, but if you provide an easy way out the spectators will never improve.
I watched most all of the three regions of tournament shows
Korea : This is a Global standard show of The Esports to professionals, a bit of middle time between sets but it's not a deal, they needs Sponsors and TV Commercial for their funding it's looks like the same level as Super Bowl, Champions League, FA Cup Final in SC2 tournaments
Europe : I really enjoyed much it, has quite small Scale of studio and audiences, but it was humorous show and is not boring at all, espeically show host and commentators and all of staffs they made harmony fantastically. they had really good job with Their own way which is European style
America: Nothing special at all, Unattractive commentators, boring progress, no vitality Studio it could be rather if hot lady will host the show, that could be people wouldn't go away to anywhere LOL and it rise ratings of viewrship much more than currently, i just hope that one of good idea LOL
WCS EU was surprising fun to watch, I love that the final day also has the third and forth place matches to watch and not just the first/second place battle. I think I really liked it due to it had Mvp vs the best of the foreigners, had it been someone else playing, I might find it a bit less entertaining. I didn't like some of the matches because they were of really poor quality and I find the analysis a bit overly done. (still feels like dreamhack would have done better imo)
GSL is as awesome as usual, stats, ranking, casting, level of players are all really way better than the other WCS region, this is to be expected. It's a shame to see the GSL prize pool dropped by so much though.
WCS AM is just boring, I tuned in to the one of the earlier rounds and the downtime etc and the over analysis is just annoying.
Just look at how much difference between the WCS EU, GSL final and WCS AM thread.
Absolutely loved WCS EU, couldn't complain about anything. Was superbly run, great casting, liked the little studio they had, and some good humour mixed in as well as great games and storylines. Maybe in the future they could have the semis and finals at a bigger venue with a bigger crowd? Dunno how possible that is but Europe can pull big crowds so I'm sure it would work. Korea was fine as usual, although I didn't enjoy the games that much, lots of all-ins and weird play, but that can happen. Europe was the big winner for me.
NA didn't interest me. I only watched a few series, and the much maligned Axeltoss was not the reason for this, I find him okay tbh. I can't quite put a finger on what it was I didn't like about it. I mean I am quite a fan of players like HerO, Ryung, TaeJa, Polt etc but I dunno, guess I'd rather see them compete in Korea.
EU: The qualifying process was pretty cool. We had several ones with a lot of casting. Then from day to day WCS improved more and more. It was nice to see new things pop up and evovle into "standrad" for a perfect tournament. I liked all of the casters and the story line. But we had luck since we hadnt had 10000 koreans trying to qualify like AM had. The scheduling was great, the things beside the games was great, the show after the games was great. It was my favorite. Only things I didnt like were that the finals were at the same studio (which is a bit small) AND that there was no "break" between ro8 upwards like between ro32 and ro16. I really like the thing that players can prepare for games andI think you can build up a lot more hype that way. But I also understand why it isnt possible to have a 1 week break between semis and finals.
AM: Since the qualifying MLG messed up. We all know that. While EU did everything to make it the best tournament, MLG tried to stay 100% to the rules. (funny since this is more a german thing than anything else and EU was held by a german organisation^^). This hurt them a lot. The qualifiers were f***ed up and so were the qualified and banned ppl. It was just as badly handled as possible. The Premier league was pretty nice. I dont like the empty breaks filled up with NY and music. It was just like a MLG Arena and not like THE prestige tournament for america. I liked Bitterdam casting very much - Axlaxv and axeltoss though arent as good. I dont like the voices and i think axeltoss looks a bit ridiculous in his suit. But they tried and put in some stuff that others hadnt. The picture in picture eg. This needs improvent though. Most of the time it seems the second screen is getting controlled by the same observer as of the real screen. It just feels as if the 2nd person isnt used to it or overloaded with work. overall AM was lacking a lot and needs lots of improvement. no livecrowd is really hurting them imo.
KR: I didnt watch much - I think 1-2 games. But I think it was as always and normally its pretty good. Good casters, good games, storyline etc. Cant say much of it.
It's a little bit offtopic but do you know if blizzard or OGN said if the grand final s1 vod will be accessible for free since for europe it's almost impossible to see the matches
If your region lacks star power (AM) the commentators should be set up to entertain and engage the audience. MLG did not do this. AM being run by MLG is harmful because they cling on to this stupid "tv-clean room" persona by which I mean the commentators will wear ridiculous suits and stay strictly professional/robotic like a news caster. Casters should have personalities to fall back on.
EU did this correctly, the commentators weren't afraid to stray from the game if nothing was happening and talk about other games/interesting player facts/things that were happening at the studio. This engages the audience, provides comedic relief and keeps long broadcasts fresh. There is only so many times you can read off what is being constructed and what the player's likely strategy is.
And to this effect, I found AM incredibly boring and the viewer count suffered greatly compared to EU.
I especially enjoyed the kind of home-friendly, relaxed atmosphere of WCS EU (MC the weatherman was beyond hilarious and something I'm sad AM hasn't tried to copy). As for KR, it was more or less like any other GSL and everything we've come to expect from them. I feel like going toward the relaxed, joking style of WCS EU would change the way we see the tournament, something I'm not sure I'd enjoy - I've come to expect greatness from GSL, and the serious approach is one part of that. If you'd change GSL to something more like WCS EU, the tournament wouldn't be the same and it wouldn't work as well on a big stage. As for AM, it feels a little dull somehow. I can't quite put my finger on why, as I like the players and most of the casters, but it just doesn't feel as "alive" as WCS EU, KR or even normal MLGs.
AM is dull because it's the same 2 guys all the time sitting at the same table casting players in the same way. It feels dull because it IS dull, there is zero variety in the whole show. They haven't even remotely tried to do anything interesting, different or varied.
2 guys sat at a desk is almost always going to be dull 5 days a week or whatever the schedule is.
As so many others have said, I too found wcs America boring. I did not like the casters, axslav and axltoss, they even have the same name almost and they look the same, its all so dull.
Korea great as usual. They know what they are doing. 10/10
EU was a lot of fun. I loved everything about it so nothing to complain about. For the future, maybe try to get a bigger crowd. 9/10
AM underwhelming in every way. Felt cheap and unimportant. My dislike for MLG grows ever stronger. Now with Blizzard taking over the IPL staff, they should do this events themselves. 3/10
EU. Liked it a lot. RedEye more than good as a host. Production overall was good, nice crowd shots and loved the players reactions. Did not have so much with the social media guy, but that is just me, better to have something instead of downtime otherwise. The production just fits the kind of tournament/players it seems. Casters were good, Kaelaris + ToD was a good combo.
KR. Just Korea, the production is pure professional, which fits the hardest tourney on the planet at the moment.
AM. Only thing I always like about MLG production is the screen in screen. Seeing the zealot harass in a zergs main really makes watching the main engagement more 'accurate'. The casters I dont like, but might me just personal, since they are fine. They just seem so dull, plain and boring to me. No real personalities. Production ansich is good, but not for such a huge prizepool tourney. No audience at all makes it all seem so awkward.
On June 03 2013 13:59 peidongyang wrote: korea - make the grand prize 40k eu -make the grand prize 12k na- make the grand prize 8k
problem fixed guys
WCS have other problems, they are more important than money and I dont think the winner like to win 12k for 11 weeks work. If we compare money with DH, MLG, HSC etc, many player will forfeit WCS.
edit: Pretty difficult to understand for me how people like you think that prizemoney can solve all problems ezpz.
KR: Flawless, as always EU: Really well done, though I would have preferred a Dreamhack. Swedish crowds assrape German crowds. AM: felt sterile and dull. Ax+Ax are all right, but with so many more distinct and popular casters in AM, it feels weird that they did the bulk of the casting. TB lives in the US now and makes any broadcast that much more enjoyable. I'm not sure if Day9 is still involved with SC2, but he seems like somebody you'd want to represent your event. If it weren't for HerO, I'm sure most people would have stopped watching the finals altogether.
All in all, this felt like MLG wanted to spend as little money as possible to save up and go for greener pastures with LoL, DotA or WoT.
On June 03 2013 11:21 TAMinator wrote: KR sets the bar, just didnt like the delays and KPOP consistently in the breaks of the finals. Please stop forcing the players to kiss the trophy for so long!
EU done very well, lots of good side content (didnt really like hubners part though) the only gripe is they need an actual crowd and venue for it to look like an event suited to the prize pool
AM same problems as EU, needs a crowd and venue, addition of bitterdam helped a little, would be nice if they could put Day9, Husky and/or TB to add more hype, but I understand this is mainly an MLG broadcast meaning they'll stick to their own casters.
no one forces them to kiss it, it carried over from BW and is a little slice of the conformist mentality in Korean culture. another example would be the k-pop haircut that many sport these days
No, I've watched every GSL finals. Everytime they do their second kiss they look at the camera men for directions on what sort of poses they want next for their photo shoot. I doubt they really feel like kissing a trophy for 10 minutes doing different poses because of conformist mentality.
Only thing I can think at the top of my head at the moment is KR's commercial breaks filled with KPOP for the finals. Would rather see the regular commercials for Zoozoo Bubble or that other game on repeat instead. I don't even hate KPOP, but outside of that Psy music video, didn't really like watching/listening to the KPOP.
AM - Really can't think of much, for the most part, for what they did and managed, it was pretty nice albeit contained. The barcraft for the finals did sort of give a slight sense of crowd immersion (if any at all). Casters could have been better, no diss to Axeltoss+Axslav and Mr.Bitter+Rotti, but they needed to get a marque caster at least for the grand finals. Totalbiscuit+Rotterdam, or TB+Axslav for that mix of a great play-by-play guy with an analyst. Obviously scheduling issues, and if TB is busy with other things meaning he can't do it.
EU - For ESL's first effort into WCS, they did great imo. Honestly can't think of anything bad to say about it, went by pretty flawlessly, if they could have only managed a larger venue for the finals to get more people in, would have been great. The small crowd in studio had some amazing energy, although there were some obvious nationalist bias (TLO for example) that can't be helped.
I enjoyed WCS EU more simply because it had European players who could actually beat korean players. WCS AM I found had a few games and series that were awesome, but it really was boring and sucked because you knew the koreans would advance. The final weekend they did was pretty good I watched most of that. WCS Korea was well GSL to me, GSL code S was great for what I got to watch, but I don't really go out of my way to watch it anymore since I can watch WCS AM and see good koreans, and EU.
Overall, WCS EU was my favorite, the casting was great the players that I didn't know much about, I learned more about and It was a fun time. IT felt special and awesome. WCS AM was boring and lame, I don't mind the casters I like them actually, but WCS AM didn't feel special or significant, just felt like daily content that IPL use to provide with random tournaments. WCS korea, aka GSL code S, same great product best players playing the best games.
On June 03 2013 01:03 BlackPride wrote: You want constructive? Get rid of axeltoss. He ruins America for me.
Why? It's not really constructive if you just say you don't like something, without saying why you don't like it. Perhaps you should point out what bothers you in his cast and he can improve. I know a guy like that dislikes every caster that isn't Artosis or Tasteless, you might want perfection but these guys aren't exactly bad at casting I think they're doing a fantastic job.
Honestly, I enjoy every single caster in this industry except for Axeltoss. I know Tasteless gets a lot of flak for not knowing much about the game, but i disagree, and at the VERY least he's hilarious. And i think part of the reason he seems like he doesn't know much is that he's constantly juxtaposed with Artosis. That would be rough. As for Axeltoss, often I am convinced he doesn't even play this game. The dude only can go play-by-play. All the constructive criticism I can give comes back to getting rid of axeltoss. That would make America so quality.
Love when people state their caster preference while not understanding how subjective caster preferences are. You literally just said that because you don't like Axeltoss, WCS AM would be a better tournament without him. Do you have a basis for believing a majority of viewers don't like Axeltoss, and therefore MLG should make a change based on the viewers' preference? Or are you just saying MLG should make a change based on your own preference?
I haven't really heard any positive feedback regarding axeltoss so I'm going to guess its more than just me...
it will be interesting to see what ogn does with the next season. if it will be like OSL we will be in for a real treat please make some nice intros!!!!
On June 03 2013 13:59 peidongyang wrote: korea - make the grand prize 40k eu -make the grand prize 12k na- make the grand prize 8k
problem fixed guys
you GET it, nothing personal against Revial or Stephano but do they really deserve as much money as Innovation?
Can't agree enough with this. KR is obviously so much harder and by far the most important of the three, I really don't understand how they chose to handle the prize pools.
On June 03 2013 13:59 peidongyang wrote: korea - make the grand prize 40k eu -make the grand prize 12k na- make the grand prize 8k
problem fixed guys
you GET it, nothing personal against Revial or Stephano but do they really deserve as much money as Innovation?
Can't agree enough with this. KR is obviously so much harder and by far the most important of the three, I really don't understand how they chose to handle the prize pools.
I think they are trying to equalize the 3 regions. If they gave KR more prize money, it's a continuous slap in the face to other regions that KR is better and deserves more attention/special treatment. Yes, the community knows KR is better but as a company, they shouldn't promote that when their strategy is to promote a global event/community.
WCS KR and EU were simply outstanding. Watched as much as I could of them. Entertaining casts, Redeye was a bit obnoxious for me but I guess people enjoy that downtime entertainment, great production, good gameplay and nice storylines.
WCS AM was a nice tournament if you muted the casters and forgot this is the World Championship Series, where we´re supposed to be linked to the players in some way. If you were only there for the gameplay (which is why I watched it), then it was OK. But as a WCS tournament it was way below KR and EU. I´m sure MLG can do better than that.
Also, no hate on Axeltoss/Axslav, but I just don´t like how they cast. Kinda dull. Axeltoss looks like he´s got no clue what´s going on. Axslav shouts too much. Neither of them looks at the observer view. The observer isn´t great, missing some stuff every now and then. It also seems like they both want to talk (hell, especially Axslav!) and neither are listening to the other.
On June 03 2013 13:59 peidongyang wrote: korea - make the grand prize 40k eu -make the grand prize 12k na- make the grand prize 8k
problem fixed guys
you GET it, nothing personal against Revial or Stephano but do they really deserve as much money as Innovation?
Can't agree enough with this. KR is obviously so much harder and by far the most important of the three, I really don't understand how they chose to handle the prize pools.
I think they are trying to equalize the 3 regions. If they gave KR more prize money, it's a continuous slap in the face to other regions that KR is better and deserves more attention/special treatment. Yes, the community knows KR is better but as a company, they shouldn't promote that when their strategy is to promote a global event/community.
That is quite obviously the point of it all and since there are a majority of korean players in the season / global finals and they will probably win those as well the prize money actually is stacked towards korean players receiving more money than those from the rest of the world.
The production effort put into all three tournaments is kinda equal and that 40/12/8 stacking of prizes would make it look silly to put so much effort in the other non-Korea regions.
I cant wait for the first non-Korean to win something big ...
I'm going to echo what a lot of people are saying.
WCS needs streamline watching VODs for all regions. There should be a central, easily accessible portal updated in a timely manner.
KR: had the best casting and talent overall. The time some of the games were played however were not ideal, ex: GSL finals. I thought that was a shame because a lot of games were easily watcheable if you were a bit of an early bird on the East Coast (ie 7am).
EU: bringing ToD to help with the casting was a fantastic idea, he did a great job. I would avoid pairing Kaelaris and Apollo though because they're a bit too similar and don't synergize as well as bringing in someone like ToD. Although Tastosis are really hard to beat, EU did a great job with additional content with ReDeYe (he was a great straight man, esp for the photoshop contest) and other commentary like with MC. It is a bit like how the NASL tried to find ways to fill time between games and this is a concept other tournaments should learn from. They had issues with production in the early phase of WCS but did a good job learning from their problems and were able to put on a good show towards the end, despite the constant barrage of negativity and comparisons to DH.
US: I really enjoyed that they brought Mr Bitter and Rotterdam to help cast the finals as that brought a breath of fresh air. Having TB was also really nice during the ShoutCraft finals. Something I wish Axslav/Axletoss would stop doing: "if someone [miraculously] kills the [entire] army [twice] with [non-existing] units [of a composition he never aimed for], he MIGHT have a shot at winning, while a game drags. Call it like it is, if the game is going to shit, respect your audience. Diversity is the spice of life and its easy to fall into a pattern if you don't take a break and you do the same thing day in and day out. Though I wouldn't rely too much on Kaelaris for analysis, he really livens up his cast and synergizes well with his co-caster. Overall I think they need to take a page from the NASL in how the NASL, and now the ESL, tried to create content to entertain the audience and give some heart to their presentation.
Edit: let's not forget how the NA qualifiers were handled as compared to the EU qualifiers. NA needs more qualifiers and they need to be run properly so the players have a decent chance to sign up and participate.
Edit 2: I find the list of casters for the first global finals confusing with how they're not relying on the Tastosis/Khaldor/Wolf.
On June 03 2013 13:59 peidongyang wrote: korea - make the grand prize 40k eu -make the grand prize 12k na- make the grand prize 8k
problem fixed guys
you GET it, nothing personal against Revial or Stephano but do they really deserve as much money as Innovation?
Can't agree enough with this. KR is obviously so much harder and by far the most important of the three, I really don't understand how they chose to handle the prize pools.
They said we are Blizzard, this is our game and we are running these events. We want winning all three regions to be equal and to try an get equal talent each region. In few sports does the prize money reflect the difficult of a specific event. The community's obsession with prize money as a solution to anything has always confused me.
On June 04 2013 00:05 vandelayindustries wrote: Does Gom having a 'premium ticket' for the WCS season 1 finals ( http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs1finals/premiumzone/ ) mean that we have to buy it to watch VODs at all?
On June 04 2013 00:05 vandelayindustries wrote: Does Gom having a 'premium ticket' for the WCS season 1 finals ( http://www.gomtv.net/2013wcs1finals/premiumzone/ ) mean that we have to buy it to watch VODs at all?
"HQ/SQ VODs" seems so.
Well that's disappointing... $15 for a weekend tournament seems a bit steep. Maybe I'll just stay up for the broadcasts.
KR was by far the best, in quality of the games, casters (Korean), venue, and observing.
EU did a good job with the "emotions" of players and surprisingly decent production. I don't know what everyone was watching, but GOM did a much better job than ESL. I personally don't give a shit about the "emotion" of the players or what people are doing in barcrafts. Foreign audience really likes fluff so I guess it was a positive. Didn't listen to the casters. Found them to show too much favoritism and compared to Korean casters they are... not great (horrible).
NA wasn't very great. I really didn't like the way the players weren't in booths or the light show they had going on in the background. Had most of it muted, same reason as EU.
I find myself disliking fluff, casting, and even the matches the more I consume the content.
The most important thing is communicating to MLG that another WCS AM finals like the ones we had last year and recently are UNACCEPTABLE. I know it's free content, but it is MLG's fucking job (IE they were hired/contracted by Blizzard) and the fact they don't seem to give a damn saddens me.
Can anyone really say this year's WCS AM was an improvement? The production was so tame and toned down you would have a very difficult time this was a fucking CONTINENTAL finals.
If MLG is allowed to pull of another WCS AM like the ones we had so far I think we as a community should push for some accountability. I mean MLG really screwed up MLG Dallas (Eagles anyone?) yet they came back roaring in Columbus. How is it they weren't able to do the same for WCS AM?
Most people I know are punished in some way for not making improvements if they perform in a sub-par manner. MLG should not be exempt from this - "Corporations are people too" - Willard Romney
On June 03 2013 13:59 peidongyang wrote: korea - make the grand prize 40k eu -make the grand prize 12k na- make the grand prize 8k
problem fixed guys
you GET it, nothing personal against Revial or Stephano but do they really deserve as much money as Innovation?
Can't agree enough with this. KR is obviously so much harder and by far the most important of the three, I really don't understand how they chose to handle the prize pools.
I think they are trying to equalize the 3 regions. If they gave KR more prize money, it's a continuous slap in the face to other regions that KR is better and deserves more attention/special treatment. Yes, the community knows KR is better but as a company, they shouldn't promote that when their strategy is to promote a global event/community.
That is quite obviously the point of it all and since there are a majority of korean players in the season / global finals and they will probably win those as well the prize money actually is stacked towards korean players receiving more money than those from the rest of the world.
The production effort put into all three tournaments is kinda equal and that 40/12/8 stacking of prizes would make it look silly to put so much effort in the other non-Korea regions.
I cant wait for the first non-Korean to win something big ...
But isn't equalizing the prize money pointless as long as there's no region lock? Koreans still win WCS AM+EU, so having the same prize money there doesn't really help that scene. It just encourages going to EU/AM for easy money, and the people staying in korea are having a disadvantage because of the stronger competition. I mean I get the point, but also can't see it working in the current form.
Besides that, I don't agree that the production effort is equal, AM is really quite lackluster as it is now.
EPT
