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SC2, LoL, and BW's Ranking of Popularity in Korea since 2010
There are a lot of revived discussion about the popularity of SC2 vs LoL vs BW. But few have taken a more objective view on this issue. When did SC2 start to decline? When did LoL get this big? What was SC2's highest rankings? How is BW doing? There are a lot of unanswered questions going around. I made these charts to provide more information about the puzzling battles between SC2, LoL, and BW.
These data are collected from two of the most popular gaming rankings in Korea. They are http://www.gametrics.com/ and http://www.inven.co.kr/. They release these rankings monthly and/or weekly.
Many people have pointed out that PC bang statistics can be misleading. Therefore, I include the online game ranking, which is not a PC bang statistics. And all in all, data and statistics are always 'misleading' because there is no perfect data and this is what we got.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/xidfp5k.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DbB21RC.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/d9iDfc0.jpg)
For bigger pictures, see the album in Imgur:
http://imgur.com/a/FV76b
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Russian Federation81 Posts
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This data does not take into account the hardware of the PCs in these PC bangs. It is entirely possible that sc2 does not run on many of the systems which are being polled for data. This would increase BW and to a lesser extent LoL representation.
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On May 28 2013 15:32 DeCoup wrote:
This data does not take into account the hardware of the PCs in these PC bangs. It is entirely possible that sc2 does not run on many of the systems which are being polled for data. This would increase BW and to a lesser extent LoL representation.
When combined with the online rankings the data still gives a good picture of how big SC2 is in Korea.
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Korea is a small country. If Esport is to grow, there needs to be emphasis on bigger countries.
Too much infatuation with korea from TL imo. It would have been way better doing analysis on US, Euro, or China.
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LoL will ALWAYS be the more popular game. Why?
1) It's FREE and the system requirements are much lower than sc2.
2) It's EASIER to understand and more CASUAL.
3) It's a TEAMGAME. You don't feel alone, and teammates can be blamed for losses
You just can't compare LoL with sc2. They are both played on the computer, but that's it.
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On May 28 2013 15:32 DeCoup wrote:
This data does not take into account the hardware of the PCs in these PC bangs. It is entirely possible that sc2 does not run on many of the systems which are being polled for data. This would increase BW and to a lesser extent LoL representation.
Essentially every pc bang has the hardware to run sc2.
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On May 28 2013 15:32 DeCoup wrote:
This data does not take into account the hardware of the PCs in these PC bangs. It is entirely possible that sc2 does not run on many of the systems which are being polled for data. This would increase BW and to a lesser extent LoL representation.
lol and sc2 has almost the same recommended system requirements. And it's 2013, in a first world country, that has a world class IT industry. Of course they would have 2.4ghz dual core, a 2 gig ram and 512 nvidia gforce 8800 gtx or better, that is pretty cheap to get.
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On May 28 2013 17:07 Snowbear wrote:
LoL will ALWAYS be the more popular game. Why?
1) It's FREE and the system requirements are much lower than sc2.
2) It's EASIER to understand and more CASUAL.
3) It's a TEAMGAME. You don't feel alone, and teammates can be blamed for losses
You just can't compare LoL with sc2. They are both played on the computer, but that's it.
Yes but why is BW still more popular than SC2?
It cant be only the monetizing model.
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Very interesting. I'm surprised that SC2 surpassed BW online. Nice to see it still popular in PC bang. I hope the SSL will bring back a BW hype in korea !
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Inferiority complex at work !
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I also noticed that SC2 slightly declines while BW continues to be on the same level basically.
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51392 Posts
You forget to mention that Korean servers for LoL were only released at the end of 2011 (which is why the ranking starts there). However, many, many people were already playing on the American server before the Korean rollout.
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On May 28 2013 18:14 letian wrote:
I also noticed that SC2 slightly declines while BW continues to be on the same level basically.
The real surprise is how the shift of KESPA legends like Flash, Jaedong and Bisu haven't changed the popularity of SC2. IIRC, only a month had passed between the last BW OSL and the first SC2 OSL, and the live audience difference was almost heart breaking.
The next victim in the next months/year or 2, will be KESPA. That organisation still rolls on BW numbers' sponsor money.. once those are re-signed, I can't imagine Flash deciding to be paid a fraction of what he is paid right now.
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On May 28 2013 17:57 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 17:07 Snowbear wrote:
LoL will ALWAYS be the more popular game. Why?
1) It's FREE and the system requirements are much lower than sc2.
2) It's EASIER to understand and more CASUAL.
3) It's a TEAMGAME. You don't feel alone, and teammates can be blamed for losses
You just can't compare LoL with sc2. They are both played on the computer, but that's it. Yes but why is BW still more popular than SC2? It cant be only the monetizing model.
BW is free and has low system requirements  . And we all know that BW is still a better game. It's the best RTS ever. But: that doesn't mean sc2 is a bad game ofcourse .
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I really think both these charts are misleading when talking about the popularity of Starcraft 2, seeing how their ranks are relative to the popularity of other games.
There are several scenarios that could give the appearance of SC2 dropping in popularity in these charts, without actually meaning anything. Games from another genre such as an FPS game could gain popularity without cannibalizing on the SC2 base but instead bringing completely new players into the data. Or an already more popular game could die out and it's fanbase could be split over many other games, all of them placing above SC2 in the rankings. A combination of both would make sense to me seeing how the MOBA genre has exploded and been spread out over a number of games.
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When I was in Korea last week, I often tune into the OGN tv channel before going out or sleep. For 7 days, the only match I managed to catch was on WCS: Soulkey vs sOs. The rest of the time was them
Replaying CJ Frost vs random team LoL match. Like litereally I watched that match for 3-4 times. Even on of the pro league match days, the channel was playing LoL and I had to watch the match on YouTube. Pretty sure, there's only 1-2 esports channel and 95% of it was playing LoL. Did manage to see some yellow montage which was pretty nice in between commercials though.
Compared this to my last trip where BW was always playing, I'm fairly certain that SC2 just wouldn't last in Korea. And the only reason why BW had a following even after so many years was mainly because of Proleague IMO. Now that most of their focus are on LoL, I really can't see SC2 lasting anywhere. Don't get me wrong, sc2 is the game for me but realistically, I just don't see it surviving.
PS: The live audience of LoL matches are huge, compared to tr abysmal live audiences of PL and stream numbers.
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while I normally would just say oh hey who cares, SC2 is doing better internationally than BW ever did. It's saddening because without popularity and money in the scene, we might see less amount of Korean players playing SC2 and the general SC2 scene will just be less competitive.
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What funny is SC2 from start had better online results based on this stats.
Does it count only battle net gateways or private (FISH etc) as well?
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On May 28 2013 17:00 iky43210 wrote:
Korea is a small country. If Esport is to grow, there needs to be emphasis on bigger countries.
Too much infatuation with korea from TL imo. It would have been way better doing analysis on US, Euro, or China.
And that would turn out even worse. Everybody plays dota and lol in China. US and Euro has tons of casual gamers into dota2, lol and even cs:go.
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On May 28 2013 18:17 GTR wrote:
You forget to mention that Korean servers for LoL were only released at the end of 2011 (which is why the ranking starts there). However, many, many people were already playing on the American server before the Korean rollout.
OK. That explains why LoL's ranking went up so quickly in the charts
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free games - more players
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On May 28 2013 17:07 Snowbear wrote:
LoL will ALWAYS be the more popular game. Why?
1) It's FREE and the system requirements are much lower than sc2.
2) It's EASIER to understand and more CASUAL.
3) It's a TEAMGAME. You don't feel alone, and teammates can be blamed for losses
You just can't compare LoL with sc2. They are both played on the computer, but that's it.
You can compare SC2 and LoL from a game design perspective. LoL is better designed and it's one of the many reasons it's more successful, just like BW.
DotA and SC2 are both extremely unforgiving, volatile and thus un-fun in the long run. I strongly believe this one of the reasons they are less popular.
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On May 28 2013 22:40 kasumimi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 17:07 Snowbear wrote:
LoL will ALWAYS be the more popular game. Why?
1) It's FREE and the system requirements are much lower than sc2.
2) It's EASIER to understand and more CASUAL.
3) It's a TEAMGAME. You don't feel alone, and teammates can be blamed for losses
You just can't compare LoL with sc2. They are both played on the computer, but that's it. You can compare SC2 and LoL from a game design perspective. LoL is better designed and it's one of the many reasons it's more successful, just like BW. DotA and SC2 are both extremely unforgiving, volatile and thus un-fun in the long run. I strongly believe this one of the reasons they are less popular.
BW was horrible designed actualy if you look at it balance wise and mechanicaly. Buggy units, huge imbalances. What made the game so damn good was excelent art, good map makers (to balance the game) and people who played the game full time for insane hours showing us that with little there can be done so much. It was also free on PC bangs, and had less competition then Sc2 currently has.
OT:
Perhaps blizzard biggest flaw with Sc2 was not being flexible with PC bangs in korea ? letting them pay per copy of the game + expences for letting them use online access for an open account.
I doubt the hardware would be a problem, but just more like PC bangs did not think it worth the expances when BW was free and populair and there are proberly tons of other games at that time that were free.
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On May 28 2013 22:40 kasumimi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 17:07 Snowbear wrote:
LoL will ALWAYS be the more popular game. Why?
1) It's FREE and the system requirements are much lower than sc2.
2) It's EASIER to understand and more CASUAL.
3) It's a TEAMGAME. You don't feel alone, and teammates can be blamed for losses
You just can't compare LoL with sc2. They are both played on the computer, but that's it. You can compare SC2 and LoL from a game design perspective. LoL is better designed and it's one of the many reasons it's more successful, just like BW. DotA and SC2 are both extremely unforgiving, volatile and thus un-fun in the long run. I strongly believe this one of the reasons they are less popular.
No, LoL is boring as shit to play and watch. It's baby's first moba, with free blinks for everyone in case you fuck up positioning. Pro games are the most low kill, yawn-inducing snoozefests I've ever seen, and the graphics look like they were designed for 10 ywar olds. The whole game is really, and that explains why so many people like to play it: they never developed the mental capacity to be able to be good at anything slightly more challenging.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On May 28 2013 19:34 bgx wrote:
What funny is SC2 from start had better online results based on this stats Which results? This chart is completely meaningless, it show RANKING, not actual numbers.
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On May 28 2013 19:34 bgx wrote:
What funny is SC2 from start had better online results based on this stats.
Does it count only battle net gateways or private (FISH etc) as well?
exactly !  good question..
all in all - pretty interesting stuff you got here
im just so fucking sad that LoL is the top game everywhere.. it sucks so much ass
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LOL is really killing the esports scene
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Starcraft 2 will suffer a huge shock in the next few months I feel. I really don't believe the KesPA teams will survive as I see resources being shifted away from SC2 teams to LoL teams. There is no audience to justify Flash/Bisu getting over 200k per year. I think a lot of people don't have an accurate view of how dire the situation is for SC2 in South Korea. Not only is the participation of players decreasing, it will probably die off like WC3 once the KesPA teams disband their SC2 teams.
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On June 01 2013 17:28 Partha wrote:
Starcraft 2 will suffer a huge shock in the next few months I feel. I really don't believe the KesPA teams will survive as I see resources being shifted away from SC2 teams to LoL teams. There is no audience to justify Flash/Bisu getting over 200k per year. I think a lot of people don't have an accurate view of how dire the situation is for SC2 in South Korea. Not only is the participation of players decreasing, it will probably die off like WC3 once the KesPA teams disband their SC2 teams.
Back to BW then
it's just sitting and waiting for the return.. I think everyone will be happy this way !
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If Blizzard isn't this greedy and actually makes the game cheaper, then it might have better sales. They should create a better interface for new players to find cool maps. Obviously they may not want a too hard challenge such as ladder from the beginning.
Also one of the easiest way to invite players is to offer something like BW battlechest (HotS + WoL) with reasonable price.
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On June 01 2013 17:28 Partha wrote:
Starcraft 2 will suffer a huge shock in the next few months I feel. I really don't believe the KesPA teams will survive as I see resources being shifted away from SC2 teams to LoL teams. There is no audience to justify Flash/Bisu getting over 200k per year. I think a lot of people don't have an accurate view of how dire the situation is for SC2 in South Korea. Not only is the participation of players decreasing, it will probably die off like WC3 once the KesPA teams disband their SC2 teams.
Im with you on this one. Im certain Kespa will diband their sc2 teams in the near future unfortunatelly.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On June 01 2013 16:45 casualman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 22:40 kasumimi wrote:On May 28 2013 17:07 Snowbear wrote:
LoL will ALWAYS be the more popular game. Why?
1) It's FREE and the system requirements are much lower than sc2.
2) It's EASIER to understand and more CASUAL.
3) It's a TEAMGAME. You don't feel alone, and teammates can be blamed for losses
You just can't compare LoL with sc2. They are both played on the computer, but that's it. You can compare SC2 and LoL from a game design perspective. LoL is better designed and it's one of the many reasons it's more successful, just like BW. DotA and SC2 are both extremely unforgiving, volatile and thus un-fun in the long run. I strongly believe this one of the reasons they are less popular. No, LoL is boring as shit to play and watch. It's baby's first moba, with free blinks for everyone in case you fuck up positioning. Pro games are the most low kill, yawn-inducing snoozefests I've ever seen, and the graphics look like they were designed for 10 ywar olds. The whole game is really, and that explains why so many people like to play it: they never developed the mental capacity to be able to be good at anything slightly more challenging. User was temp banned for this post.
It's definitely not as bad as you propose.
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On May 28 2013 19:34 bgx wrote:
What funny is SC2 from start had better online results based on this stats.
Does it count only battle net gateways or private (FISH etc) as well?
I don't know about the methodology, but one explanation why SC2 beats BroodWar online, but not in PC Baangs, is that people without BroodWar could go to a PC Baang and play it- whereas, until recently, to play Starcraft 2, you already needed a bnet account loaded with sc2, and if you had one of those, you'd be able to play the game from home anyways. If you're hanging around the PC baang with a bunch of friends, and just one of them didn't buy SC2, then you're likely going to play something else, like LoL or BroodWar.
With this theory, the PC Baang results are skewed disproportionately away from sc2. There are other explanations, of course.
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PC bangs are so weird anyway. Maybe Korean SC2 players play from home instead of the cyber cafe?
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Isn't it the case that the online BW ranking is based off of battlenet alone and not fish server where most people play?
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On May 28 2013 22:40 kasumimi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 17:07 Snowbear wrote:
LoL will ALWAYS be the more popular game. Why?
1) It's FREE and the system requirements are much lower than sc2.
2) It's EASIER to understand and more CASUAL.
3) It's a TEAMGAME. You don't feel alone, and teammates can be blamed for losses
You just can't compare LoL with sc2. They are both played on the computer, but that's it. You can compare SC2 and LoL from a game design perspective. LoL is better designed and it's one of the many reasons it's more successful, just like BW. DotA and SC2 are both extremely unforgiving, volatile and thus un-fun in the long run. I strongly believe this one of the reasons they are less popular.
Apples are way better than oranges, they just taste better and are better designed and are therefore more popular.
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On June 01 2013 14:38 Lysanias wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 22:40 kasumimi wrote:On May 28 2013 17:07 Snowbear wrote:
LoL will ALWAYS be the more popular game. Why?
1) It's FREE and the system requirements are much lower than sc2.
2) It's EASIER to understand and more CASUAL.
3) It's a TEAMGAME. You don't feel alone, and teammates can be blamed for losses
You just can't compare LoL with sc2. They are both played on the computer, but that's it. You can compare SC2 and LoL from a game design perspective. LoL is better designed and it's one of the many reasons it's more successful, just like BW. DotA and SC2 are both extremely unforgiving, volatile and thus un-fun in the long run. I strongly believe this one of the reasons they are less popular. BW was horrible designed actualy if you look at it balance wise and mechanicaly. Buggy units, huge imbalances. What made the game so damn good was excelent art, good map makers (to balance the game) and people who played the game full time for insane hours showing us that with little there can be done so much. It was also free on PC bangs, and had less competition then Sc2 currently has.
*Bows down*
I feel like most people who praise BW for being better than SC2 never really understood BW that well.
That said, I don't claim to understand BW a lot either... 
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On June 01 2013 14:38 Lysanias wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 22:40 kasumimi wrote:On May 28 2013 17:07 Snowbear wrote:
LoL will ALWAYS be the more popular game. Why?
1) It's FREE and the system requirements are much lower than sc2.
2) It's EASIER to understand and more CASUAL.
3) It's a TEAMGAME. You don't feel alone, and teammates can be blamed for losses
You just can't compare LoL with sc2. They are both played on the computer, but that's it. You can compare SC2 and LoL from a game design perspective. LoL is better designed and it's one of the many reasons it's more successful, just like BW. DotA and SC2 are both extremely unforgiving, volatile and thus un-fun in the long run. I strongly believe this one of the reasons they are less popular. BW was horrible designed actualy if you look at it balance wise and mechanicaly. Buggy units, huge imbalances. What made the game so damn good was excelent art, good map makers (to balance the game) and people who played the game full time for insane hours showing us that with little there can be done so much. It was also free on PC bangs, and had less competition then Sc2 currently has. OT: Perhaps blizzard biggest flaw with Sc2 was not being flexible with PC bangs in korea ? letting them pay per copy of the game + expences for letting them use online access for an open account. I doubt the hardware would be a problem, but just more like PC bangs did not think it worth the expances when BW was free and populair and there are proberly tons of other games at that time that were free.
Less competition? the BW era was the golden age of the RTS, now SC2 is alone in that department and is not appealing to that big masses in Korea that used to love BW, just accept it.
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On June 02 2013 02:49 palexhur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 14:38 Lysanias wrote:On May 28 2013 22:40 kasumimi wrote:On May 28 2013 17:07 Snowbear wrote:
LoL will ALWAYS be the more popular game. Why?
1) It's FREE and the system requirements are much lower than sc2.
2) It's EASIER to understand and more CASUAL.
3) It's a TEAMGAME. You don't feel alone, and teammates can be blamed for losses
You just can't compare LoL with sc2. They are both played on the computer, but that's it. You can compare SC2 and LoL from a game design perspective. LoL is better designed and it's one of the many reasons it's more successful, just like BW. DotA and SC2 are both extremely unforgiving, volatile and thus un-fun in the long run. I strongly believe this one of the reasons they are less popular. BW was horrible designed actualy if you look at it balance wise and mechanicaly. Buggy units, huge imbalances. What made the game so damn good was excelent art, good map makers (to balance the game) and people who played the game full time for insane hours showing us that with little there can be done so much. It was also free on PC bangs, and had less competition then Sc2 currently has. OT: Perhaps blizzard biggest flaw with Sc2 was not being flexible with PC bangs in korea ? letting them pay per copy of the game + expences for letting them use online access for an open account. I doubt the hardware would be a problem, but just more like PC bangs did not think it worth the expances when BW was free and populair and there are proberly tons of other games at that time that were free. Less competition? the BW era was the golden age of the RTS, now SC2 is alone in that department and is not appealing to that big masses in Korea that used to love BW, just accept it.
Got to agree there. BW trumped a lot of RTS games at the time, i.e. Dune 2 and C&C. Although I'd argue that MOBAs compete with RTS games as a whole, so SC2 has about equal competition.
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Eh, who really cares? I mean LoL isn't particularly fun compared to SC2 and HoTS has made SC2 much more enjoyable to watch.
All that is important is that SC2 still pulls in money, is still really damn fun to play and really fun to watch. It's also the only esport that has more people watching it than playing it.
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On May 28 2013 22:40 kasumimi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 17:07 Snowbear wrote:
LoL will ALWAYS be the more popular game. Why?
1) It's FREE and the system requirements are much lower than sc2.
2) It's EASIER to understand and more CASUAL.
3) It's a TEAMGAME. You don't feel alone, and teammates can be blamed for losses
You just can't compare LoL with sc2. They are both played on the computer, but that's it. You can compare SC2 and LoL from a game design perspective. LoL is better designed and it's one of the many reasons it's more successful, just like BW. DotA and SC2 are both extremely unforgiving, volatile and thus un-fun in the long run. I strongly believe this one of the reasons they are less popular.
nice blanket statement.
i tried lol and just found it pretty boring. control one unit whole game with 3 buttons to press, requires the reaction time of a goldfish.
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I think the Team Play aspect of LoL is actually the BIGGER reason that LoL gets more players. Being free to play definitely helps, but it's the Team aspect that gets the players. Very frequently, when people go to PC Bangs, it's in a group. And when a group goes to a PC Bang, they want to play together. In Brood War, we played a lot of Hunters/BGH. Even though the pro scene revolved around 1v1, most people still played 4v4s.
SC2's team play aspect is not very good. The custom maps are all kind of boring to be honest. And the 3v3/4v4 maps are stale and imbalanced. Even if SC2 were free, it still would not pull in the players that LoL does.
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On June 02 2013 03:14 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 22:40 kasumimi wrote:On May 28 2013 17:07 Snowbear wrote:
LoL will ALWAYS be the more popular game. Why?
1) It's FREE and the system requirements are much lower than sc2.
2) It's EASIER to understand and more CASUAL.
3) It's a TEAMGAME. You don't feel alone, and teammates can be blamed for losses
You just can't compare LoL with sc2. They are both played on the computer, but that's it. You can compare SC2 and LoL from a game design perspective. LoL is better designed and it's one of the many reasons it's more successful, just like BW. DotA and SC2 are both extremely unforgiving, volatile and thus un-fun in the long run. I strongly believe this one of the reasons they are less popular. nice blanket statement. i tried lol and just found it pretty boring. control one unit whole game with 3 buttons to press, requires the reaction time of a goldfish.
You're generalizing just as much as he is. -.-
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I'm not even sure what I am supposed to do with this extra data that says the same thing as before. :/ Turns out LoL is still more popular, and it still doesn't matter to us I think? This discussion is so old, and nothing new is brought to the table here. I don't mind you posting this here, OP, but I don't know if I understand what you want us to take away from this data.
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What is the difference between inven and gametrics? They are obviously measuring different things for the difference to be so huge (besides LoL being #1, which everyone knew already).
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On June 02 2013 03:44 Kasaraki wrote:
I'm not even sure what I am supposed to do with this extra data that says the same thing as before. :/ Turns out LoL is still more popular, and it still doesn't matter to us I think? This discussion is so old, and nothing new is brought to the table here. I don't mind you posting this here, OP, but I don't know if I understand what you want us to take away from this data.
Couldn't agree with you more. Just because one is more popular than the other doesn't make SC2 less "legitimate". Soccer is the most popular sport in the world, you don't see tennis fans being upset that they don't have as many followers.
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It's funny that people interpret a game's status based purely on ONE country's appreciation for it. Good thing there are only competitions for these games in Korea, right? Not that the stats would be THAT different, but given the fact that global popularity is becoming more important due to the internet, taking away conclusions from a country that may be saturated with Esports is still not very wise. The whole point of SC2, LoL, DotA 2 and all of these other new Esports is to GLOBALIZE what we see in Korea. Yes, to emulate what is happening there but that doesn't mean we will be exactly like them. The same statistics could appear globally, and I would agree that SC2 is probably less played than LoL or even DotA 2, maybe even BW, but popularity is a logical fallacy when trying to prove the worth of something. Just because it is popular, doesn't mean it is good. Not saying LoL is bad, and I actually enjoy watching it.
God damn it people.
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How come gametricks and inven data for BW completely different?
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On June 02 2013 02:18 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 14:38 Lysanias wrote:On May 28 2013 22:40 kasumimi wrote:On May 28 2013 17:07 Snowbear wrote:
LoL will ALWAYS be the more popular game. Why?
1) It's FREE and the system requirements are much lower than sc2.
2) It's EASIER to understand and more CASUAL.
3) It's a TEAMGAME. You don't feel alone, and teammates can be blamed for losses
You just can't compare LoL with sc2. They are both played on the computer, but that's it. You can compare SC2 and LoL from a game design perspective. LoL is better designed and it's one of the many reasons it's more successful, just like BW. DotA and SC2 are both extremely unforgiving, volatile and thus un-fun in the long run. I strongly believe this one of the reasons they are less popular. BW was horrible designed actualy if you look at it balance wise and mechanicaly. Buggy units, huge imbalances. What made the game so damn good was excelent art, good map makers (to balance the game) and people who played the game full time for insane hours showing us that with little there can be done so much. It was also free on PC bangs, and had less competition then Sc2 currently has. *Bows down* I feel like most people who praise BW for being better than SC2 never really understood BW that well. That said, I don't claim to understand BW a lot either...
Actually BW was incredibly well designed. I'll happily concede the points of the buggy units and bad map design that the guy you're quoting brings up. Although BW never did fix the dragoon ai, what BW did have was a good map editor and a much better battle.net interface. There was no find match button, and you could host whatever map you wanted without a large portion of the people playing melee maps being inaccessible because they use the 'find match'. There wasn't a forced stagnant map pool.
SC2 also suffered heavily from bad maps, but the problem was made more severe by the popularity system (inability to realistically get a game going for anything below the first few pages) and the ladder pool being stagnant under complete control by Blizzard.
The beauty of BW is that it changed constantly to reflect the interests of the community. The problem with SC2 is that it did not for a very long time, and it may still not. The popularity system largely kept the UMS scene stagnant, while Blizzard was always too slow to change the map pool for ladder and their changes often brought fuckups.
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On May 28 2013 17:07 Snowbear wrote:
LoL will ALWAYS be the more popular game. Why?
1) It's FREE and the system requirements are much lower than sc2.
2) It's EASIER to understand and more CASUAL.
3) It's a TEAMGAME. You don't feel alone, and teammates can be blamed for losses
You just can't compare LoL with sc2. They are both played on the computer, but that's it.
this was almost exactly what khaldor has been saying
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On June 02 2013 04:36 Frozenhelfire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2013 02:18 Antylamon wrote:On June 01 2013 14:38 Lysanias wrote:On May 28 2013 22:40 kasumimi wrote:On May 28 2013 17:07 Snowbear wrote:
LoL will ALWAYS be the more popular game. Why?
1) It's FREE and the system requirements are much lower than sc2.
2) It's EASIER to understand and more CASUAL.
3) It's a TEAMGAME. You don't feel alone, and teammates can be blamed for losses
You just can't compare LoL with sc2. They are both played on the computer, but that's it. You can compare SC2 and LoL from a game design perspective. LoL is better designed and it's one of the many reasons it's more successful, just like BW. DotA and SC2 are both extremely unforgiving, volatile and thus un-fun in the long run. I strongly believe this one of the reasons they are less popular. BW was horrible designed actualy if you look at it balance wise and mechanicaly. Buggy units, huge imbalances. What made the game so damn good was excelent art, good map makers (to balance the game) and people who played the game full time for insane hours showing us that with little there can be done so much. It was also free on PC bangs, and had less competition then Sc2 currently has. *Bows down* I feel like most people who praise BW for being better than SC2 never really understood BW that well. That said, I don't claim to understand BW a lot either... Actually BW was incredibly well designed. I'll happily concede the points of the buggy units and bad map design that the guy you're quoting brings up. Although BW never did fix the dragoon ai, what BW did have was a good map editor and a much better battle.net interface. There was no find match button, and you could host whatever map you wanted without a large portion of the people playing melee maps being inaccessible because they use the 'find match'. There wasn't a forced stagnant map pool. SC2 also suffered heavily from bad maps, but the problem was made more severe by the popularity system (inability to realistically get a game going for anything below the first few pages) and the ladder pool being stagnant under complete control by Blizzard. The beauty of BW is that it changed constantly to reflect the interests of the community. The problem with SC2 is that it did not for a very long time, and it may still not. The popularity system largely kept the UMS scene stagnant, while Blizzard was always too slow to change the map pool for ladder and their changes often brought fuckups.
I don't believe that either of the BW&SC2 development teams knew jack shit about the intricacies of making a competitive RTS. But one of the teams undoubtedly got luckier than the other.
The main reason in my mind was that BW ultimately turned out to have been designed as an almost ceiling-less game. That went for both the micro and macro department, whereas SC2 is severely hampered in the macro department.
SC2 development team also messed with production mechanics (warp-in, larva inject) in a way that constricts map making by default. SC2 suffering from bad maps isn't really map makers' fault as much as it's due to the existence of offensive warp-ins and a very generous larva inject ability. SC2's design largely forces maps to look a certain way, with certain width chokes and ramps; and with certain attack distances.
In contrast, a more slow paced game like BW with defined defender's advantage (because of conformed production mechanics) gave much more room and freedom to mapmakers. And I think this was a large part of why BW was largely balanced through map makers, whereas SC2 is and will probably continue to be largely balanced by Blizzard's unit tweaks (when your game contains ceilings which are hit twice as fast as in the game's predecessor, there's no way to get around unit strength being the most important factor for balance).
With that said: I can't really say whether SC2 would have been more successful if it was better designed. Success and popularity may have more to do with other factors such as the botched UMS/Arcade implementation.
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May we get a 2014 update of the graphs please ?
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EPT
