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On June 01 2013 14:38 Lysanias wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 22:40 kasumimi wrote:On May 28 2013 17:07 Snowbear wrote:
LoL will ALWAYS be the more popular game. Why?
1) It's FREE and the system requirements are much lower than sc2.
2) It's EASIER to understand and more CASUAL.
3) It's a TEAMGAME. You don't feel alone, and teammates can be blamed for losses
You just can't compare LoL with sc2. They are both played on the computer, but that's it. You can compare SC2 and LoL from a game design perspective. LoL is better designed and it's one of the many reasons it's more successful, just like BW. DotA and SC2 are both extremely unforgiving, volatile and thus un-fun in the long run. I strongly believe this one of the reasons they are less popular. BW was horrible designed actualy if you look at it balance wise and mechanicaly. Buggy units, huge imbalances. What made the game so damn good was excelent art, good map makers (to balance the game) and people who played the game full time for insane hours showing us that with little there can be done so much. It was also free on PC bangs, and had less competition then Sc2 currently has. OT: Perhaps blizzard biggest flaw with Sc2 was not being flexible with PC bangs in korea ? letting them pay per copy of the game + expences for letting them use online access for an open account. I doubt the hardware would be a problem, but just more like PC bangs did not think it worth the expances when BW was free and populair and there are proberly tons of other games at that time that were free.
Less competition? the BW era was the golden age of the RTS, now SC2 is alone in that department and is not appealing to that big masses in Korea that used to love BW, just accept it.
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On June 02 2013 02:49 palexhur wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 14:38 Lysanias wrote:On May 28 2013 22:40 kasumimi wrote:On May 28 2013 17:07 Snowbear wrote:
LoL will ALWAYS be the more popular game. Why?
1) It's FREE and the system requirements are much lower than sc2.
2) It's EASIER to understand and more CASUAL.
3) It's a TEAMGAME. You don't feel alone, and teammates can be blamed for losses
You just can't compare LoL with sc2. They are both played on the computer, but that's it. You can compare SC2 and LoL from a game design perspective. LoL is better designed and it's one of the many reasons it's more successful, just like BW. DotA and SC2 are both extremely unforgiving, volatile and thus un-fun in the long run. I strongly believe this one of the reasons they are less popular. BW was horrible designed actualy if you look at it balance wise and mechanicaly. Buggy units, huge imbalances. What made the game so damn good was excelent art, good map makers (to balance the game) and people who played the game full time for insane hours showing us that with little there can be done so much. It was also free on PC bangs, and had less competition then Sc2 currently has. OT: Perhaps blizzard biggest flaw with Sc2 was not being flexible with PC bangs in korea ? letting them pay per copy of the game + expences for letting them use online access for an open account. I doubt the hardware would be a problem, but just more like PC bangs did not think it worth the expances when BW was free and populair and there are proberly tons of other games at that time that were free. Less competition? the BW era was the golden age of the RTS, now SC2 is alone in that department and is not appealing to that big masses in Korea that used to love BW, just accept it.
Got to agree there. BW trumped a lot of RTS games at the time, i.e. Dune 2 and C&C. Although I'd argue that MOBAs compete with RTS games as a whole, so SC2 has about equal competition.
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Eh, who really cares? I mean LoL isn't particularly fun compared to SC2 and HoTS has made SC2 much more enjoyable to watch.
All that is important is that SC2 still pulls in money, is still really damn fun to play and really fun to watch. It's also the only esport that has more people watching it than playing it.
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On May 28 2013 22:40 kasumimi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 17:07 Snowbear wrote:
LoL will ALWAYS be the more popular game. Why?
1) It's FREE and the system requirements are much lower than sc2.
2) It's EASIER to understand and more CASUAL.
3) It's a TEAMGAME. You don't feel alone, and teammates can be blamed for losses
You just can't compare LoL with sc2. They are both played on the computer, but that's it. You can compare SC2 and LoL from a game design perspective. LoL is better designed and it's one of the many reasons it's more successful, just like BW. DotA and SC2 are both extremely unforgiving, volatile and thus un-fun in the long run. I strongly believe this one of the reasons they are less popular.
nice blanket statement.
i tried lol and just found it pretty boring. control one unit whole game with 3 buttons to press, requires the reaction time of a goldfish.
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I think the Team Play aspect of LoL is actually the BIGGER reason that LoL gets more players. Being free to play definitely helps, but it's the Team aspect that gets the players. Very frequently, when people go to PC Bangs, it's in a group. And when a group goes to a PC Bang, they want to play together. In Brood War, we played a lot of Hunters/BGH. Even though the pro scene revolved around 1v1, most people still played 4v4s.
SC2's team play aspect is not very good. The custom maps are all kind of boring to be honest. And the 3v3/4v4 maps are stale and imbalanced. Even if SC2 were free, it still would not pull in the players that LoL does.
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On June 02 2013 03:14 dreamsmasher wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2013 22:40 kasumimi wrote:On May 28 2013 17:07 Snowbear wrote:
LoL will ALWAYS be the more popular game. Why?
1) It's FREE and the system requirements are much lower than sc2.
2) It's EASIER to understand and more CASUAL.
3) It's a TEAMGAME. You don't feel alone, and teammates can be blamed for losses
You just can't compare LoL with sc2. They are both played on the computer, but that's it. You can compare SC2 and LoL from a game design perspective. LoL is better designed and it's one of the many reasons it's more successful, just like BW. DotA and SC2 are both extremely unforgiving, volatile and thus un-fun in the long run. I strongly believe this one of the reasons they are less popular. nice blanket statement. i tried lol and just found it pretty boring. control one unit whole game with 3 buttons to press, requires the reaction time of a goldfish.
You're generalizing just as much as he is. -.-
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I'm not even sure what I am supposed to do with this extra data that says the same thing as before. :/ Turns out LoL is still more popular, and it still doesn't matter to us I think? This discussion is so old, and nothing new is brought to the table here. I don't mind you posting this here, OP, but I don't know if I understand what you want us to take away from this data.
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What is the difference between inven and gametrics? They are obviously measuring different things for the difference to be so huge (besides LoL being #1, which everyone knew already).
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On June 02 2013 03:44 Kasaraki wrote:
I'm not even sure what I am supposed to do with this extra data that says the same thing as before. :/ Turns out LoL is still more popular, and it still doesn't matter to us I think? This discussion is so old, and nothing new is brought to the table here. I don't mind you posting this here, OP, but I don't know if I understand what you want us to take away from this data.
Couldn't agree with you more. Just because one is more popular than the other doesn't make SC2 less "legitimate". Soccer is the most popular sport in the world, you don't see tennis fans being upset that they don't have as many followers.
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It's funny that people interpret a game's status based purely on ONE country's appreciation for it. Good thing there are only competitions for these games in Korea, right? Not that the stats would be THAT different, but given the fact that global popularity is becoming more important due to the internet, taking away conclusions from a country that may be saturated with Esports is still not very wise. The whole point of SC2, LoL, DotA 2 and all of these other new Esports is to GLOBALIZE what we see in Korea. Yes, to emulate what is happening there but that doesn't mean we will be exactly like them. The same statistics could appear globally, and I would agree that SC2 is probably less played than LoL or even DotA 2, maybe even BW, but popularity is a logical fallacy when trying to prove the worth of something. Just because it is popular, doesn't mean it is good. Not saying LoL is bad, and I actually enjoy watching it.
God damn it people.
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How come gametricks and inven data for BW completely different?
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On June 02 2013 02:18 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2013 14:38 Lysanias wrote:On May 28 2013 22:40 kasumimi wrote:On May 28 2013 17:07 Snowbear wrote:
LoL will ALWAYS be the more popular game. Why?
1) It's FREE and the system requirements are much lower than sc2.
2) It's EASIER to understand and more CASUAL.
3) It's a TEAMGAME. You don't feel alone, and teammates can be blamed for losses
You just can't compare LoL with sc2. They are both played on the computer, but that's it. You can compare SC2 and LoL from a game design perspective. LoL is better designed and it's one of the many reasons it's more successful, just like BW. DotA and SC2 are both extremely unforgiving, volatile and thus un-fun in the long run. I strongly believe this one of the reasons they are less popular. BW was horrible designed actualy if you look at it balance wise and mechanicaly. Buggy units, huge imbalances. What made the game so damn good was excelent art, good map makers (to balance the game) and people who played the game full time for insane hours showing us that with little there can be done so much. It was also free on PC bangs, and had less competition then Sc2 currently has. *Bows down* I feel like most people who praise BW for being better than SC2 never really understood BW that well. That said, I don't claim to understand BW a lot either... 
Actually BW was incredibly well designed. I'll happily concede the points of the buggy units and bad map design that the guy you're quoting brings up. Although BW never did fix the dragoon ai, what BW did have was a good map editor and a much better battle.net interface. There was no find match button, and you could host whatever map you wanted without a large portion of the people playing melee maps being inaccessible because they use the 'find match'. There wasn't a forced stagnant map pool.
SC2 also suffered heavily from bad maps, but the problem was made more severe by the popularity system (inability to realistically get a game going for anything below the first few pages) and the ladder pool being stagnant under complete control by Blizzard.
The beauty of BW is that it changed constantly to reflect the interests of the community. The problem with SC2 is that it did not for a very long time, and it may still not. The popularity system largely kept the UMS scene stagnant, while Blizzard was always too slow to change the map pool for ladder and their changes often brought fuckups.
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On May 28 2013 17:07 Snowbear wrote:
LoL will ALWAYS be the more popular game. Why?
1) It's FREE and the system requirements are much lower than sc2.
2) It's EASIER to understand and more CASUAL.
3) It's a TEAMGAME. You don't feel alone, and teammates can be blamed for losses
You just can't compare LoL with sc2. They are both played on the computer, but that's it.
this was almost exactly what khaldor has been saying 
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On June 02 2013 04:36 Frozenhelfire wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2013 02:18 Antylamon wrote:On June 01 2013 14:38 Lysanias wrote:On May 28 2013 22:40 kasumimi wrote:On May 28 2013 17:07 Snowbear wrote:
LoL will ALWAYS be the more popular game. Why?
1) It's FREE and the system requirements are much lower than sc2.
2) It's EASIER to understand and more CASUAL.
3) It's a TEAMGAME. You don't feel alone, and teammates can be blamed for losses
You just can't compare LoL with sc2. They are both played on the computer, but that's it. You can compare SC2 and LoL from a game design perspective. LoL is better designed and it's one of the many reasons it's more successful, just like BW. DotA and SC2 are both extremely unforgiving, volatile and thus un-fun in the long run. I strongly believe this one of the reasons they are less popular. BW was horrible designed actualy if you look at it balance wise and mechanicaly. Buggy units, huge imbalances. What made the game so damn good was excelent art, good map makers (to balance the game) and people who played the game full time for insane hours showing us that with little there can be done so much. It was also free on PC bangs, and had less competition then Sc2 currently has. *Bows down* I feel like most people who praise BW for being better than SC2 never really understood BW that well. That said, I don't claim to understand BW a lot either... Actually BW was incredibly well designed. I'll happily concede the points of the buggy units and bad map design that the guy you're quoting brings up. Although BW never did fix the dragoon ai, what BW did have was a good map editor and a much better battle.net interface. There was no find match button, and you could host whatever map you wanted without a large portion of the people playing melee maps being inaccessible because they use the 'find match'. There wasn't a forced stagnant map pool. SC2 also suffered heavily from bad maps, but the problem was made more severe by the popularity system (inability to realistically get a game going for anything below the first few pages) and the ladder pool being stagnant under complete control by Blizzard. The beauty of BW is that it changed constantly to reflect the interests of the community. The problem with SC2 is that it did not for a very long time, and it may still not. The popularity system largely kept the UMS scene stagnant, while Blizzard was always too slow to change the map pool for ladder and their changes often brought fuckups.
I don't believe that either of the BW&SC2 development teams knew jack shit about the intricacies of making a competitive RTS. But one of the teams undoubtedly got luckier than the other.
The main reason in my mind was that BW ultimately turned out to have been designed as an almost ceiling-less game. That went for both the micro and macro department, whereas SC2 is severely hampered in the macro department.
SC2 development team also messed with production mechanics (warp-in, larva inject) in a way that constricts map making by default. SC2 suffering from bad maps isn't really map makers' fault as much as it's due to the existence of offensive warp-ins and a very generous larva inject ability. SC2's design largely forces maps to look a certain way, with certain width chokes and ramps; and with certain attack distances.
In contrast, a more slow paced game like BW with defined defender's advantage (because of conformed production mechanics) gave much more room and freedom to mapmakers. And I think this was a large part of why BW was largely balanced through map makers, whereas SC2 is and will probably continue to be largely balanced by Blizzard's unit tweaks (when your game contains ceilings which are hit twice as fast as in the game's predecessor, there's no way to get around unit strength being the most important factor for balance).
With that said: I can't really say whether SC2 would have been more successful if it was better designed. Success and popularity may have more to do with other factors such as the botched UMS/Arcade implementation.
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May we get a 2014 update of the graphs please ?
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EPT
