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On April 12 2013 16:06 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 16:01 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:59 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:57 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:55 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:44 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:37 GorGor wrote:On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct? Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game.Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T I will answer that question. Protoss has upgrades that cost less and are cheaper and that give more benefit (ground upgrades in WOL covered basically every unit protoss built including their structures whereas terran had 3 different sets of upgrades including an additional upgrade structure). Also chrono boost can be used on tech, in addition to the fact that you are ignoring the warp gate mechanic. Building units is invariably an aspect of sound macro and protoss can build their units immediately with warp gate. To say that all protoss has in terms of macro mechanics is early game chrono is untrue and deceptive considering protoss as a race does have a number of unique macro advantages. Perhaps it would be better of him to say that Zerg and Terran have economic advantages of Protoss, rather than macro, since macro can be broadly defined. In both standard PvZ and PvT the Protoss player falls behind in economy and takes a tech advantage to attempt to make up for this. This is also because of chronoboost, this Protoss macro mechanic can be used to speed tech instead of economy, while Mules and Larva only help economically. Protoss also lacks really effective harass, so that tech you're investing into is likely going to be army (deathball) tech especially since you're behind in economy and so naturally you plan to hit a timing with your advanced tech before your opponents superior economy leads to superior tech, and then you're behind in both economy and tech. I just learned a lot about Protoss in writing that... and now I have a better understanding of why timings attacks are a great way to play Protoss... perhaps the solution here is to give Protoss better harrass or better economic advantages and nerf their end tech units a bit? On April 12 2013 15:37 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:35 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:
[quote]
Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct?
Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game. Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T Yeah the Oracle is basically the same kind of harrass as the DT. Game ending if not prepared for, but useless otherwise. Drops can still be effective even if your opponent prepares for them simply because of the DPS and survivability of 8 stimmed Marines with Medivac support. Look, if you're going to harass a base with 4 spines and a spore, there is no possible way for a drop, a DT, or anything to do really any damage. 8 marines with stim and a Medivac can combat that easily. Either the Spines are group and you go around them, or they are spread and you fight one of them and kill it easily, and then do economic damage. You mean when marines drop one at a time and they get poked to death before the other guys can get down and by the time all 8 marines are unloaded, you're left with 2-3? The point of medivac drops and/or harass isn't to do economic damage, but to pull the other guy out of position. Anything else is extra. Pretty sure 8 Marines dropped from a Medivac in succession will result in more than 2-3 alive by the time they are all down versus 1 Spine Crawler... I could be wrong... vs 1, but if you have 3-4 which is common in 4+ bases, it's much harder to harass. What's the problem with 1 spine for Protoss? With Protoss you're likely going to be harrasing with Zealots or DT's. They are melee and so the 4 Spines can be spread and cover each other nicely. And as I said with Terran your harassing with a ranged units, and thus can isolate the Spines if they are separated, or you can just go around them if they are clumped. very rarely when there's more than 1 spine does only 1 attack at once. The difference of melee vs ranged is a big difference and probably does make a difference in the viability of Protoss harass vs Terran harass (also the longevity of units, like we saw in Fantasy vs anyone in the GSL when he kept his drops alive for so so long). But if you warp in 5-6 zealots w/ 1-2 DTs, you can do damage faster than my marines. I think for Protoss to complain about a lack of harass options, I just say they haven't tried it enough.
Protoss harass options are limited because most their units require critical mass and synergy to do anything.
Blizzard's response is to give protoss a dedicated harass unit that is game ending if unprepared for, nigh useless otherwise.
Protoss lacking harass outside of DT's and phoenix is two fold - mobility and synergy. Also phoenix and DT don't fair too well outside of harass normally.
Protoss units are too specific, deathball or harass with little in the way of middle ground. Zealots + warp prism can do good harass but its not comparable to the other races and often not worth it as you are weakening your main army doing so, which is where protoss strength comes from at the moment - giant ball of death that everybody hates to watch and play against.
Badly designed race but not underpowered IMO.
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On April 12 2013 16:32 zbedlam wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 16:06 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 16:01 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:59 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:57 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:55 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:44 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:37 GorGor wrote:On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:
[quote]
Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct?
Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game.Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T I will answer that question. Protoss has upgrades that cost less and are cheaper and that give more benefit (ground upgrades in WOL covered basically every unit protoss built including their structures whereas terran had 3 different sets of upgrades including an additional upgrade structure). Also chrono boost can be used on tech, in addition to the fact that you are ignoring the warp gate mechanic. Building units is invariably an aspect of sound macro and protoss can build their units immediately with warp gate. To say that all protoss has in terms of macro mechanics is early game chrono is untrue and deceptive considering protoss as a race does have a number of unique macro advantages. Perhaps it would be better of him to say that Zerg and Terran have economic advantages of Protoss, rather than macro, since macro can be broadly defined. In both standard PvZ and PvT the Protoss player falls behind in economy and takes a tech advantage to attempt to make up for this. This is also because of chronoboost, this Protoss macro mechanic can be used to speed tech instead of economy, while Mules and Larva only help economically. Protoss also lacks really effective harass, so that tech you're investing into is likely going to be army (deathball) tech especially since you're behind in economy and so naturally you plan to hit a timing with your advanced tech before your opponents superior economy leads to superior tech, and then you're behind in both economy and tech. I just learned a lot about Protoss in writing that... and now I have a better understanding of why timings attacks are a great way to play Protoss... perhaps the solution here is to give Protoss better harrass or better economic advantages and nerf their end tech units a bit? On April 12 2013 15:37 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:35 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:
[quote]
Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy.
1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game.
Protoss oracle is shit.
Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T Yeah the Oracle is basically the same kind of harrass as the DT. Game ending if not prepared for, but useless otherwise. Drops can still be effective even if your opponent prepares for them simply because of the DPS and survivability of 8 stimmed Marines with Medivac support. Look, if you're going to harass a base with 4 spines and a spore, there is no possible way for a drop, a DT, or anything to do really any damage. 8 marines with stim and a Medivac can combat that easily. Either the Spines are group and you go around them, or they are spread and you fight one of them and kill it easily, and then do economic damage. You mean when marines drop one at a time and they get poked to death before the other guys can get down and by the time all 8 marines are unloaded, you're left with 2-3? The point of medivac drops and/or harass isn't to do economic damage, but to pull the other guy out of position. Anything else is extra. Pretty sure 8 Marines dropped from a Medivac in succession will result in more than 2-3 alive by the time they are all down versus 1 Spine Crawler... I could be wrong... vs 1, but if you have 3-4 which is common in 4+ bases, it's much harder to harass. What's the problem with 1 spine for Protoss? With Protoss you're likely going to be harrasing with Zealots or DT's. They are melee and so the 4 Spines can be spread and cover each other nicely. And as I said with Terran your harassing with a ranged units, and thus can isolate the Spines if they are separated, or you can just go around them if they are clumped. very rarely when there's more than 1 spine does only 1 attack at once. The difference of melee vs ranged is a big difference and probably does make a difference in the viability of Protoss harass vs Terran harass (also the longevity of units, like we saw in Fantasy vs anyone in the GSL when he kept his drops alive for so so long). But if you warp in 5-6 zealots w/ 1-2 DTs, you can do damage faster than my marines. I think for Protoss to complain about a lack of harass options, I just say they haven't tried it enough. Protoss harass options are limited because most their units require critical mass and synergy to do anything. Blizzard's response is to give protoss a dedicated harass unit that is game ending if unprepared for, nigh useless otherwise. Protoss lacking harass outside of DT's and phoenix is two fold - mobility and synergy. Also phoenix and DT don't fair too well outside of harass normally. Protoss units are too specific, deathball or harass with little in the way of middle ground. Zealots + warp prism can do good harass but its not comparable to the other races and often not worth it as you are weakening your main army doing so, which is where protoss strength comes from at the moment - giant ball of death that everybody hates to watch and play against. Badly designed race but not underpowered IMO.
Zealots are not comparable? I fear them most when I play, they drop 4 and warp in 4 more and againts 8 upgraded zealot I need a lot of unit. They shred buildings and reinforcements from barracks really fast and they kill scvs like nothing.
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On April 12 2013 16:36 Breach_hu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 16:32 zbedlam wrote:On April 12 2013 16:06 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 16:01 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:59 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:57 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:55 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:44 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:37 GorGor wrote:On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:
[quote]
Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy.
1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game.
Protoss oracle is shit.
Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T I will answer that question. Protoss has upgrades that cost less and are cheaper and that give more benefit (ground upgrades in WOL covered basically every unit protoss built including their structures whereas terran had 3 different sets of upgrades including an additional upgrade structure). Also chrono boost can be used on tech, in addition to the fact that you are ignoring the warp gate mechanic. Building units is invariably an aspect of sound macro and protoss can build their units immediately with warp gate. To say that all protoss has in terms of macro mechanics is early game chrono is untrue and deceptive considering protoss as a race does have a number of unique macro advantages. Perhaps it would be better of him to say that Zerg and Terran have economic advantages of Protoss, rather than macro, since macro can be broadly defined. In both standard PvZ and PvT the Protoss player falls behind in economy and takes a tech advantage to attempt to make up for this. This is also because of chronoboost, this Protoss macro mechanic can be used to speed tech instead of economy, while Mules and Larva only help economically. Protoss also lacks really effective harass, so that tech you're investing into is likely going to be army (deathball) tech especially since you're behind in economy and so naturally you plan to hit a timing with your advanced tech before your opponents superior economy leads to superior tech, and then you're behind in both economy and tech. I just learned a lot about Protoss in writing that... and now I have a better understanding of why timings attacks are a great way to play Protoss... perhaps the solution here is to give Protoss better harrass or better economic advantages and nerf their end tech units a bit? On April 12 2013 15:37 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:35 BronzeKnee wrote:
[quote]
Yeah the Oracle is basically the same kind of harrass as the DT. Game ending if not prepared for, but useless otherwise. Drops can still be effective even if your opponent prepares for them simply because of the DPS and survivability of 8 stimmed Marines with Medivac support. Look, if you're going to harass a base with 4 spines and a spore, there is no possible way for a drop, a DT, or anything to do really any damage. 8 marines with stim and a Medivac can combat that easily. Either the Spines are group and you go around them, or they are spread and you fight one of them and kill it easily, and then do economic damage. You mean when marines drop one at a time and they get poked to death before the other guys can get down and by the time all 8 marines are unloaded, you're left with 2-3? The point of medivac drops and/or harass isn't to do economic damage, but to pull the other guy out of position. Anything else is extra. Pretty sure 8 Marines dropped from a Medivac in succession will result in more than 2-3 alive by the time they are all down versus 1 Spine Crawler... I could be wrong... vs 1, but if you have 3-4 which is common in 4+ bases, it's much harder to harass. What's the problem with 1 spine for Protoss? With Protoss you're likely going to be harrasing with Zealots or DT's. They are melee and so the 4 Spines can be spread and cover each other nicely. And as I said with Terran your harassing with a ranged units, and thus can isolate the Spines if they are separated, or you can just go around them if they are clumped. very rarely when there's more than 1 spine does only 1 attack at once. The difference of melee vs ranged is a big difference and probably does make a difference in the viability of Protoss harass vs Terran harass (also the longevity of units, like we saw in Fantasy vs anyone in the GSL when he kept his drops alive for so so long). But if you warp in 5-6 zealots w/ 1-2 DTs, you can do damage faster than my marines. I think for Protoss to complain about a lack of harass options, I just say they haven't tried it enough. Protoss harass options are limited because most their units require critical mass and synergy to do anything. Blizzard's response is to give protoss a dedicated harass unit that is game ending if unprepared for, nigh useless otherwise. Protoss lacking harass outside of DT's and phoenix is two fold - mobility and synergy. Also phoenix and DT don't fair too well outside of harass normally. Protoss units are too specific, deathball or harass with little in the way of middle ground. Zealots + warp prism can do good harass but its not comparable to the other races and often not worth it as you are weakening your main army doing so, which is where protoss strength comes from at the moment - giant ball of death that everybody hates to watch and play against. Badly designed race but not underpowered IMO. Zealots are not comparable? I fear them most when I play, they drop 4 and warp in 4 more and againts 8 upgraded zealot I need a lot of unit. They shred buildings and reinforcements from barracks really fast and they kill scvs like nothing.
As a terran can kite them easily, can run away from them fairly easily, and also its a huge investment to do something like that,
It is fairly powerful though poor wording on my part, most toss players would view those resources better used as part of their deathball though.
Also, once they land their zealots there's no going back, they ARE going to die no matter what, only thing that matters is how much damage they do. Whereas with marine drops they can continue dropping and fall back with boosters readily, the main point of a marine drop is to divert or contain whereas the main point of a zealot drop is normally to do damage. It's not their damage that isn't comparable its their mobility.
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On April 12 2013 16:10 DarkLordOlli wrote:
This, this, this. One hundred times this. The only reason why protoss is not more successful in tournaments is exactly this. You have to rely on somewhat-gimmicks like forcefield, etc. to both defend and attack and only players who have that stuff down perfectly and rely manage to FF perfectly, storm perfectly, etc. a whole tournament long will have success as protoss. And that's hard as hell to do because you have to forcefield, storm, etc. reactionary. It's super easy to make mistakes with forcefielding (overlap, holes between the FFs, blocking your own units, forcefielding in too much army, wasting forcefields, ETC) and lose a game that way. It's gimmicky, no other word to describe it.
+1 for stronger gateway units and less relying on gimmicks to survive/win.
Edit: this is not about protoss being too weak. Protoss is looking very strong in HotS if played well. It's just overall the most fragile race in the early to midgame imo and the easiest to mess up with and lose a game due to that.
This is so ridiculous. Force-fielding is one of the easiest mechanics in the entire game. It's point and click. The only hard part about force-fields is the so-called "wasting" them, but that is true for pretty much any energy based ability in the game.
To call protoss reactionary is pretty silly as well, at least in the PvT matchup. Terran doesn't "go vikings" against protoss, they build vikings in reaction to colossus, because if terran doesn't have vikings vs colossus then it is insta-GG. In WOL protoss even went so far as to build a single colossus without upgrading thermal lance and deliberately show it then proceed to go for high templar in order to mind game the terran into overproducing vikings because they were otherwise useless in the matchup. If protoss don't want to use colossus then they can use HT which again requires a REACTION from the terran in the form of ghosts. The only terran strategies that protoss has to play "reactionary" to are ultra gimmicky strategies that don't work on the professional scene.
Calling protoss gimmicky compared to terran is just SOOO silly when the empirical evidence shows just the opposite. Protoss players almost always want to play a super macro style, whereas terrans are forced to proxy 2 racks in game 7's or build entire strategies around clever ways to never actually engage the protoss army. I shouldn't even need to talk about PvZ having the most codified idea of "standard" in all of sc2...
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On April 12 2013 16:32 zbedlam wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 16:06 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 16:01 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:59 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:57 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:55 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:44 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:37 GorGor wrote:On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:
[quote]
Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct?
Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game.Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T I will answer that question. Protoss has upgrades that cost less and are cheaper and that give more benefit (ground upgrades in WOL covered basically every unit protoss built including their structures whereas terran had 3 different sets of upgrades including an additional upgrade structure). Also chrono boost can be used on tech, in addition to the fact that you are ignoring the warp gate mechanic. Building units is invariably an aspect of sound macro and protoss can build their units immediately with warp gate. To say that all protoss has in terms of macro mechanics is early game chrono is untrue and deceptive considering protoss as a race does have a number of unique macro advantages. Perhaps it would be better of him to say that Zerg and Terran have economic advantages of Protoss, rather than macro, since macro can be broadly defined. In both standard PvZ and PvT the Protoss player falls behind in economy and takes a tech advantage to attempt to make up for this. This is also because of chronoboost, this Protoss macro mechanic can be used to speed tech instead of economy, while Mules and Larva only help economically. Protoss also lacks really effective harass, so that tech you're investing into is likely going to be army (deathball) tech especially since you're behind in economy and so naturally you plan to hit a timing with your advanced tech before your opponents superior economy leads to superior tech, and then you're behind in both economy and tech. I just learned a lot about Protoss in writing that... and now I have a better understanding of why timings attacks are a great way to play Protoss... perhaps the solution here is to give Protoss better harrass or better economic advantages and nerf their end tech units a bit? On April 12 2013 15:37 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:35 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:
[quote]
Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy.
1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game.
Protoss oracle is shit.
Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T Yeah the Oracle is basically the same kind of harrass as the DT. Game ending if not prepared for, but useless otherwise. Drops can still be effective even if your opponent prepares for them simply because of the DPS and survivability of 8 stimmed Marines with Medivac support. Look, if you're going to harass a base with 4 spines and a spore, there is no possible way for a drop, a DT, or anything to do really any damage. 8 marines with stim and a Medivac can combat that easily. Either the Spines are group and you go around them, or they are spread and you fight one of them and kill it easily, and then do economic damage. You mean when marines drop one at a time and they get poked to death before the other guys can get down and by the time all 8 marines are unloaded, you're left with 2-3? The point of medivac drops and/or harass isn't to do economic damage, but to pull the other guy out of position. Anything else is extra. Pretty sure 8 Marines dropped from a Medivac in succession will result in more than 2-3 alive by the time they are all down versus 1 Spine Crawler... I could be wrong... vs 1, but if you have 3-4 which is common in 4+ bases, it's much harder to harass. What's the problem with 1 spine for Protoss? With Protoss you're likely going to be harrasing with Zealots or DT's. They are melee and so the 4 Spines can be spread and cover each other nicely. And as I said with Terran your harassing with a ranged units, and thus can isolate the Spines if they are separated, or you can just go around them if they are clumped. very rarely when there's more than 1 spine does only 1 attack at once. The difference of melee vs ranged is a big difference and probably does make a difference in the viability of Protoss harass vs Terran harass (also the longevity of units, like we saw in Fantasy vs anyone in the GSL when he kept his drops alive for so so long). But if you warp in 5-6 zealots w/ 1-2 DTs, you can do damage faster than my marines. I think for Protoss to complain about a lack of harass options, I just say they haven't tried it enough. Protoss harass options are limited because most their units require critical mass and synergy to do anything. Blizzard's response is to give protoss a dedicated harass unit that is game ending if unprepared for, nigh useless otherwise. Protoss lacking harass outside of DT's and phoenix is two fold - mobility and synergy. Also phoenix and DT don't fair too well outside of harass normally. Protoss units are too specific, deathball or harass with little in the way of middle ground. Zealots + warp prism can do good harass but its not comparable to the other races and often not worth it as you are weakening your main army doing so, which is where protoss strength comes from at the moment - giant ball of death that everybody hates to watch and play against. Badly designed race but not underpowered IMO.
While I strongly agree that Protoss is pretty trash without hitting that critical mass (a horrible design outcome), Protoss harass options aren't as limited as you think. You mentioned that Terran can just kite the zealots. Well, sure, to be cost effective, we have to kite.
Imagine a situation where you warp in 4-6 zealots in a 3rd or 4th, drop a warp prism full of zealots in the main. Terran HAS to micro or commit a lot of units to each base's defense. And then the Protoss just pushes into maybe the natural or whatever they want to kill. That could very well be a killing blow. There isn't many Terrans that can defend an attack from multiple sides, and deal with a deathball that requires splitting, kiting and EMP's just to survive. You don't do one of them, and the Protoss lands a storm or two, you're pretty dead.
Of course that takes a lot of coordination, but Protoss losing a few zealots to push the Terran army out of position and force hard decisions is not a bad thing. At worst, if the Terran decides to say f it and push at Protoss, move back, turtle up, get a concave and land the good storms/feedback.
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On April 12 2013 16:39 zbedlam wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 16:36 Breach_hu wrote:On April 12 2013 16:32 zbedlam wrote:On April 12 2013 16:06 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 16:01 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:59 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:57 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:55 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:44 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:37 GorGor wrote:
[quote]
I will answer that question. Protoss has upgrades that cost less and are cheaper and that give more benefit (ground upgrades in WOL covered basically every unit protoss built including their structures whereas terran had 3 different sets of upgrades including an additional upgrade structure). Also chrono boost can be used on tech, in addition to the fact that you are ignoring the warp gate mechanic. Building units is invariably an aspect of sound macro and protoss can build their units immediately with warp gate. To say that all protoss has in terms of macro mechanics is early game chrono is untrue and deceptive considering protoss as a race does have a number of unique macro advantages. Perhaps it would be better of him to say that Zerg and Terran have economic advantages of Protoss, rather than macro, since macro can be broadly defined. In both standard PvZ and PvT the Protoss player falls behind in economy and takes a tech advantage to attempt to make up for this. This is also because of chronoboost, this Protoss macro mechanic can be used to speed tech instead of economy, while Mules and Larva only help economically. Protoss also lacks really effective harass, so that tech you're investing into is likely going to be army (deathball) tech especially since you're behind in economy and so naturally you plan to hit a timing with your advanced tech before your opponents superior economy leads to superior tech, and then you're behind in both economy and tech. I just learned a lot about Protoss in writing that... and now I have a better understanding of why timings attacks are a great way to play Protoss... perhaps the solution here is to give Protoss better harrass or better economic advantages and nerf their end tech units a bit? On April 12 2013 15:37 Chaggi wrote:
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Look, if you're going to harass a base with 4 spines and a spore, there is no possible way for a drop, a DT, or anything to do really any damage.
8 marines with stim and a Medivac can combat that easily. Either the Spines are group and you go around them, or they are spread and you fight one of them and kill it easily, and then do economic damage. You mean when marines drop one at a time and they get poked to death before the other guys can get down and by the time all 8 marines are unloaded, you're left with 2-3? The point of medivac drops and/or harass isn't to do economic damage, but to pull the other guy out of position. Anything else is extra. Pretty sure 8 Marines dropped from a Medivac in succession will result in more than 2-3 alive by the time they are all down versus 1 Spine Crawler... I could be wrong... vs 1, but if you have 3-4 which is common in 4+ bases, it's much harder to harass. What's the problem with 1 spine for Protoss? With Protoss you're likely going to be harrasing with Zealots or DT's. They are melee and so the 4 Spines can be spread and cover each other nicely. And as I said with Terran your harassing with a ranged units, and thus can isolate the Spines if they are separated, or you can just go around them if they are clumped. very rarely when there's more than 1 spine does only 1 attack at once. The difference of melee vs ranged is a big difference and probably does make a difference in the viability of Protoss harass vs Terran harass (also the longevity of units, like we saw in Fantasy vs anyone in the GSL when he kept his drops alive for so so long). But if you warp in 5-6 zealots w/ 1-2 DTs, you can do damage faster than my marines. I think for Protoss to complain about a lack of harass options, I just say they haven't tried it enough. Protoss harass options are limited because most their units require critical mass and synergy to do anything. Blizzard's response is to give protoss a dedicated harass unit that is game ending if unprepared for, nigh useless otherwise. Protoss lacking harass outside of DT's and phoenix is two fold - mobility and synergy. Also phoenix and DT don't fair too well outside of harass normally. Protoss units are too specific, deathball or harass with little in the way of middle ground. Zealots + warp prism can do good harass but its not comparable to the other races and often not worth it as you are weakening your main army doing so, which is where protoss strength comes from at the moment - giant ball of death that everybody hates to watch and play against. Badly designed race but not underpowered IMO. Zealots are not comparable? I fear them most when I play, they drop 4 and warp in 4 more and againts 8 upgraded zealot I need a lot of unit. They shred buildings and reinforcements from barracks really fast and they kill scvs like nothing. As a terran can kite them easily, can run away from them fairly easily, and also its a huge investment to do something like that, It is fairly powerful though poor wording on my part, most toss players would view those resources better used as part of their deathball though. Also, once they land their zealots there's no going back, they ARE going to die no matter what, only thing that matters is how much damage they do. Whereas with marine drops they can continue dropping and fall back with boosters readily, the main point of a marine drop is to divert or contain whereas the main point of a zealot drop is normally to do damage. It's not their damage that isn't comparable its their mobility.
Once again, because you know you're going to lose them, it basically means you don't have to pay attention to them. Sure, they might be cleaned up, but the Terran is spending actions trying to defend it. Once you start looking at actions like a resource, it makes more sense. No one, not Innovation, not Flash, or MKP can kite multiple groups of units across several screens especially if they are highly upgraded zealots (which in TvP, that's possible)
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In most matchups one race tends to be the turtle player while the other one has the faster army and harasses more. Somehow TvZ evades this a bit where both players have pretty fast units but other matchups have always been this way, also in BW.
Sentry usage is already diminished quite a bit since you don't need them as much anymore because of the MsC. Timewarp can serve a similar role of letting you kill a 1 or 2 units if they push to far and MsC harassment style of play is being developed more. New medivacs also make sentries far less used because you need a mobile army more.
For example PvT looks to be a matchup where you just make 1 or 2 sentries now and tech quicker instead of massing those forcefields. PvZ even sees them less because vipers/ultras come out quicker which counter sentries fairly well.
It is true that protoss is still the passive race too much. It's sad that mech failed in PvT because if it did work the roles would revert to protoss being the harassment player but alas, it's even more turtling than before now with the new medivacs.
PvZ has a lot more harass going on now, more airplay etc. Still you are kind of forced into the deathball later just because sentries, colossi etc. need a critical mass. Stalkers are the only ground unit that can somewhat harass on their own but it's still a bit rare to see, especially since blink got nerfed.
Overall it got a little better I think, PvP especially is less colossus camping in the midgame and more open. PvT has an improved early game where P can harass and defend at the same time often, mid/lategame is still a bit lousy though with P waiting for their critical army with double aoe to kick in while defending drops.
The MsC is still a bit of a failure in my eyes, I don't get why they chose to have it like they have now. Recall should never have been just a townportal like it's now, used to stop baseraces or being out of position. It should be a harassment tool!
I would love to see the MsC being a little quicker (nerf it's attack to compensate early on) and restrict recall to 16 supply of units. You could do lovely harass with small squads of stalkers, maybe even colossi and drops combined but you couldn't do the free attacks with recall anymore.
And of course fix mech for TvP... Many players hate to be forced into MMM(M) almost every match with terran and facing mech occasionally on a serious note (not the random guy who does it) would be great for protoss. I like facing mech and being the harasser for a change but I face only those scrubs doing mech with only planetaries against which you just have to wait for 10 carriers to win..
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Very true, points taken. Multi pronged attacks from protoss seem very powerful theoretically but I don't think I have ever seen it executed. Only reason I can think of is protoss rarely have map control which makes it very hard to drop. I've seen zealot drops and you guys are right, they do cause quite a bit of damage but it just seems so rare to see a toss player even attempt a multi pronged attack.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
Yes, Protoss needs a redesign.
Known since 2010, basically.
Yet Blizzard will not do it.
OP is well written, tho.
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AFAIK blizzard has said before that they don't think protoss t1 units are "too weak" and have been strongly against any fundamental changes to early game protoss (since the WG research nerfs). Doesn't mean that they're right but I'm pretty sure that they directly addressed this complaint before in interviews.
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On April 12 2013 16:55 zbedlam wrote:
Very true, points taken. Multi pronged attacks from protoss seem very powerful theoretically but I don't think I have ever seen it executed. Only reason I can think of is protoss rarely have map control which makes it very hard to drop. I've seen zealot drops and you guys are right, they do cause quite a bit of damage but it just seems so rare to see a toss player even attempt a multi pronged attack.
I think it stems from the problem that Protoss really sucks when it's w/o their T3 units. I can kite zealots all day if I don't have Templar/Archon/Collossi threatening to punch me in the balls. The thing is that no matter how simple kiting is, it still takes up a lot of APM and attention, especially when it's small groups vs small groups, and considering how hard zealots are to kill with equal upgrades, multi-pronged aggression on economy is incredibly hard. Don't forget, looking at Terran, production facilities are not only expensive to produce, take a long time + addons, and require SCVs to actually build them. Supply depots almost always are sitting together, and Terran outside of Planetary, has no good ground base defense. It's incredibly easy to stretch a Terran out.
Protoss's have been doing it more though, I don't recall seeing it much in HoTS (cause I haven't seen much HOTS Protoss play) but I do know that KeSPA players like SKT1_Rain did it. In fact, when it was him vs Taeja when Taeja was an unstoppable monster of a Terran, he basically beat Taeja without even engaging in the big giant battles that TvP is known for. Complaining, writing this topic, that's not going to change anything. Sorry, it's just not. Blizzard, outside of betas, has never been known to make huge sweeping changes, and I doubt they will in a game that's 2-3 years old, even in the next expansion.
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I'm not totally sure what's meant by the word "gimmick." Usually "gimmick" means either:
a) a strategy or tactic that is very chance-based and coin-flippy, resulting in games being decided more by random chance than by player skill.
b) a strategy or tactic that depends on the opponent making a mistake or responding incorrectly, e.g. 4gate, roach rush, or even leaving the collapsible rocks on low health and hoping your opponent runs his army through the gap.
c) a strategy or tactic that depends on "weird" behavior in the game, e.g. the old 2-bunker wall-off at the bottom of the ramp before tournaments started putting neutral supply depots down there.
So I'm not really sure what is meant by "gimmick" here. Protoss certainly has strategies that fit in all three categories: DT rush is very chance-based, 4-gate is very cheesy and depends on the opponent responding badly, and sentry drop in the main to forcefield the Zerg's ramp while the army's outside is very "weird" behavior. But all three races have examples of "gimmicks." Standard Protoss play has typically involved none of the above; take expansions, defend attacks, build a strong army, and at the right time, attack with a strong timing attack. If you want more aggro options, there's always warp prism, stargate, etc. Of course, for all three races aggressive play suffers from the difficulty that if you invest in aggression and it does no damage, you'll be at least a little behind; but that's exactly how a strategy game should function. If one player invests in tech or expansions, and the other player invests in aggression but does no damage, of course the aggressive player is behind.
In terms of lack of options, far from it! In WoL TvP many Terrans felt somewhat disheartened by their lack of options; we were doomed to play bio w/ ghosts and vikings for the rest of eternity! The whole of Terran play revolved around one timing attack at around ten minutes, whereas Protoss could go for everything from mass warpgate pressure to warp prism harass to colossus play to HT play to DT play; there were so many viable compositions and playstyles the Protoss could choose from, while the Terran could only build marines, marauders, and medivacs, and then add ghosts or vikings depending on what tech path the Protoss chose.
Now in HotS I don't feel quite as limited as a Terran, but Protoss has hardly lost its options, either. If anything it's gained some, since stargate play has now been added to the wide range of strategies available to Protoss players. I'm sure someone will argue that stargate play is "gimmicky" since once players figure out how to respond to it, Protoss won't be able to go stargate any more. But it seems awfully foolish to assume stargate play will only get worse as players get experienced. Certainly that might be the case, but on the other hand perhaps Protoss players will discover new and clever ways to make stargate play work even better than it does now. Predicting the future is an awfully risky business, and it's even more so when you're merely guessing without some kind of testable model on which to base your predictions.
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Is DT a gimmick? Is Stargate a gimmick? I don't even think so. Phoenix can shut down drop play, while a few oracles threatening in the base, even with a turret means that the Terran has no map presence. Imagine just walking out of the safety of the bunkers and seeing zealots/sentries/stalkers w/ oracles about to bust. DT's might not be able to do damage when it's on 2 base (but honestly, what decent player gets caught off guard by drops while on 2 base), but as soon as the Terran expands beyond 3, 4, 5, etc bases, DT's are so effective it's a wonder more people don't use it. I feel like a lot of complaints here are like if DT's are somehow not able to be warped in after the 10 minute mark.
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On April 12 2013 17:03 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 16:55 zbedlam wrote:
Very true, points taken. Multi pronged attacks from protoss seem very powerful theoretically but I don't think I have ever seen it executed. Only reason I can think of is protoss rarely have map control which makes it very hard to drop. I've seen zealot drops and you guys are right, they do cause quite a bit of damage but it just seems so rare to see a toss player even attempt a multi pronged attack. I think it stems from the problem that Protoss really sucks when it's w/o their T3 units. I can kite zealots all day if I don't have Templar/Archon/Collossi threatening to punch me in the balls. The thing is that no matter how simple kiting is, it still takes up a lot of APM and attention, especially when it's small groups vs small groups, and considering how hard zealots are to kill with equal upgrades, multi-pronged aggression on economy is incredibly hard. Don't forget, looking at Terran, production facilities are not only expensive to produce, take a long time + addons, and require SCVs to actually build them. Supply depots almost always are sitting together, and Terran outside of Planetary, has no good ground base defense. It's incredibly easy to stretch a Terran out. Protoss's have been doing it more though, I don't recall seeing it much in HoTS (cause I haven't seen much HOTS Protoss play) but I do know that KeSPA players like SKT1_Rain did it. In fact, when it was him vs Taeja when Taeja was an unstoppable monster of a Terran, he basically beat Taeja without even engaging in the big giant battles that TvP is known for. Complaining, writing this topic, that's not going to change anything. Sorry, it's just not. Blizzard, outside of betas, has never been known to make huge sweeping changes, and I doubt they will in a game that's 2-3 years old, even in the next expansion.
Agreed, I've seen a few skytosses do some brutal harass but its rare to see, I don't play protoss often so I can't comment why only on what I observe.
Blizzard has done a fair amount to reduce deathballs, no sweeping changes granted but at least we rarely see infestor/bl balls in ZvT anymore.
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Blizzard botched Protoss from the beginning and I higgggggghly doubt they will do anything about them in LotV.
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Personally I think the msc has made protoss a but lazy when it comes to the mid game harass stage, as they don't feel the need to take it with them. Warp gates are already great for dealing with harass, but the msc gets left at home.
I cringe every time I see a player not have it with their army, because if you keep it alive then you completely end this need for committal aggression. You can always retreat!
Especially in PvZ, the msc has revolutionised the waythe were Marco looks, because I am always attacking! There is no reason not to
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Amazingly written post.
I completely agree with the first half of the OP, where you talk about how the protoss race as a design is flawed due to sentry (force field) MSC, warp tech, and weak gateway units as a result of these things.
I do however, disagree with the points you made about protoss not improving as a race in Hots. from my own experience, from both playing the game (i am a masters protoss too) and watching pro players stream, i do feel like the early and mid game options for protoss have increased in terms of aggression, and safer expanding with the MSC and oracles. (the tempest also gives us an answer to the once unstoppable brood lord, but that's irrelevant to this thread)
so all in all i believe protoss was flawed in wol, as easy to play and also be gimmicky with, but also the worst race in terms of tournament showings/results in the pro scene. and i agree with the OP on these points.
However i also believe that whats done is done, and although its a shame that blizzard fucked up with our race when designing and balancing it, there's nothing we can do about that now, and i cant possibly imagine anything drastic being reworked like warp tech, all i can see happening is blizzard continuing to try their hardest to balance the game as best they can with the design they've given the protoss, and i think it will take a while, but in contrast to the second half of the OP, i DO in fact think that blizzard took steps in the right direction with hots. the MSC is maybe not desirable for starcraft because its one unit being the core focus of protoss early mid-game which feels kinda warcraft 3-esque, not starcraft-esque, but i think its spells have the potential to solve issues that protoss have in terms of aggression without being allin, and defending allins/ 3rd bases which are too hard to take because of map design.
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Nice OP but this isn´t exactly news and has been discussed to death since a few months into WoL. The true testament to how true this actually is, is that in larger numbers gateway units lose to just about anything of equal tech. Just look how protoss plays, fast expand and rush a tier 3 unit out asap, usually the colossus since you get the robo anyway. You get the colossus out and you hold whatever push the T or Z does, if you don´t you die unless you have a lot of sentries. And this is with the opponent also doing a fast expand.
MSC does enable some greedier play and it enables you to build way less sentries - this cannot be denied. Unless you slip of macro you can play very greedy and hold of stuff due to photon overcharge.
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Doesn't the MSC have some type of recall thing that was supposed to be used like a hit and run tactic? what happened with that?
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What i think makes protoss a "gimmick" is lack of heavy macro oriented play, we cannot avoid comparing it to BroodWar where Protoss large macro style was a valid and succesful strategy (Best was known for it, currently one of the worst Kespa SC2 protosses).
Why there is no solid macro play? Warpgates, gateway units got nerfed proportionally to how you could warp them near the pylon in front of opponent's base. So gateway heavy style can be only used for its strenght as timed attack (warping offensively)thats how early to midgame protoss works, warping units in your own base and macroing up will not work for you unless you were super,super greedy and opponent does not scout.
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EPT
