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All you have to do is build some colossi and you will be just fine OP. Sometimes protoss players forget to do that and it causes them to lose a few games, but once you remember how to build colossi (or high templar) then you will be fine.
User was warned for this post
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On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct?
Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy.
1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game.
Protoss oracle is shit.
Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T
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I think the main problem is Protoss has too much utility such as Colossus, oracles, MSC, FF, Blink Stalkers, etc. If synergized properly, then it would definitely be very difficult for the other races to stop it! However, the problem is that we want this game to be balanced. I am glad that the all-ins have been nerfed; however, the main issue is that the protoss is too reliant on the combination of units to be powerful.
I remember in BW. You did not need as many spells to win games. But in SC2, Protoss became more of a micro race in a MACRO-based game. To propose nerfs on the other races is not advisable because that would only make the other races just as boring. If anything, I think Blizzard needs to grant greater flexibility to the Protoss units and give room for Protoss players to play simpler instead of relying on complex deathballs. If anything, they should grant toss units affordable abilities that would be good for early/mid game but useless late game (Terran has the widow mine that fits that role while the Zerg has the multalisk; oracles don't count because they are comparably expensive.)
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On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct? Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game. Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T
How is this not a balance whine? Protoss can take a 3rd, it might be harder, or require different reactions, but isn't that the point of a different race?
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On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct? Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game. Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T
Yeah the Oracle is basically the same kind of harrass as the DT. Game ending if not prepared for, but useless otherwise. Drops can still be effective even if your opponent prepares for them simply because of the DPS and survivability of 8 stimmed Marines with Medivac support.
On April 12 2013 15:34 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct? Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game. Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T How is this not a balance whine? Protoss can take a 3rd, it might be harder, or require different reactions, but isn't that the point of a different race?
It isn't balance whine at all. The point is that Protoss have a massive disparity in macro mechanics compared to Zerg, and this leads to timings based around units or upgrades (+1, Blink, Void Rays, Colossus, ect...) being the best way to combat a Zerg player because you simply won't be able to keep up economically. In terms of balance this means that Protoss is most effective when a new powerful timing comes out that Zerg hasn't figured out, and Zerg is most powerful when they have figured out all the Protoss timings. This has been the history of the SC2 so far.
Terran also suffers from this problem but is able to combat it with effective harassment, thus allowing them to both harass the Zerg and macro up. Protoss has to commit a lot more to get the same damage done, and their harass forces are weaker and more reliant on their opponent being unprepared (DT's and Oracles).
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On April 12 2013 15:35 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct? Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game. Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T Yeah the Oracle is basically the same kind of harrass as the DT. Game ending if not prepared for, but useless otherwise. Drops can still be effective even if your opponent prepares for them simply because of the DPS and survivability of 8 stimmed Marines with Medivac support.
Look, if you're going to harass a base with 4 spines and a spore, there is no possible way for a drop, a DT, or anything to do really any damage.
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On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct? Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game.Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T
I will answer that question. Protoss has upgrades that cost less and are cheaper and that give more benefit (ground upgrades in WOL covered basically every unit protoss built including their structures whereas terran had 3 different sets of upgrades including an additional upgrade structure). Also chrono boost can be used on tech, in addition to the fact that you are ignoring the warp gate mechanic. Building units is invariably an aspect of sound macro and protoss can build their units immediately with warp gate. To say that all protoss has in terms of macro mechanics is early game chrono is untrue and deceptive considering protoss as a race does have a number of unique macro advantages.
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On April 12 2013 15:34 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct? Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game. Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T How is this not a balance whine? Protoss can take a 3rd, it might be harder, or require different reactions, but isn't that the point of a different race?
당신은 이해 못해요! Z is T_T
User was warned for this post
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On April 12 2013 15:37 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 15:35 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct? Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game. Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T Yeah the Oracle is basically the same kind of harrass as the DT. Game ending if not prepared for, but useless otherwise. Drops can still be effective even if your opponent prepares for them simply because of the DPS and survivability of 8 stimmed Marines with Medivac support. Look, if you're going to harass a base with 4 spines and a spore, there is no possible way for a drop, a DT, or anything to do really any damage.
LOOK, if you gonna harass multiple bases with DTs in late game is MORE efficient than buying Oracle.
Oracle is a shit unit!!
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Am I the only one around here who feels that the game would have been much more enjoyable over the past few years if protoss never had the sentry or warp tech, or at least different versions of them that lent themselves to aggression?
This oh so much this... I dont like the sentry at all. In fact I genuinly hate it and find it to be the most boring unit in the game.
It totally fucks up any ground army a zerg might try to use against a deathball, combines with the MSC its even more stupid.
But I dont think the problem is only in WG mechanics / sentry.
Terran are waaay to cost-efficient with minerals + deathball of bio dps + unlimited unit selection. Add medivacs to that and nothing is equally cost-efficient. In order to counter that somehow, P needed stronk aoe (colo) and a way to make that aoe efficient (sentries). Now imagine gateway units without sentries fighting Zerg Tier 1. Its just laughable. its retarded how bad it is. With sentries though.... Now add in infestors (think WoL) which is the way zerg was cost efficient against the bio deathball crap. and its again a fucked up matchup... I dont know how much it would help but I think medics rather than medivacs would improve the game quite a bit, it would certainly lower the dps of the unlimited selection bioball, perhaps that would result in a posibility to nerf the aoe from protoss and buff their GW units a bit (keep in mind zealot pressure early game against Zerg is still incredibly cost efficient for the protoss) to keep them as a part of their core army. and make WG units weaker or perhaps even remove the WG mechanic. Now buff the zerglings a bit and we might not even need the incredibly gas heavy eco system that protoss and Zerg rely on to be remotely cost efficient.
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On April 12 2013 15:37 GorGor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct? Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game.Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T I will answer that question. Protoss has upgrades that cost less and are cheaper and that give more benefit (ground upgrades in WOL covered basically every unit protoss built including their structures whereas terran had 3 different sets of upgrades including an additional upgrade structure). Also chrono boost can be used on tech, in addition to the fact that you are ignoring the warp gate mechanic. Building units is invariably an aspect of sound macro and protoss can build their units immediately with warp gate. To say that all protoss has in terms of macro mechanics is early game chrono is untrue and deceptive considering protoss as a race does have a number of unique macro advantages.
Perhaps it would be better of him to say that Zerg and Terran have economic advantages of Protoss, rather than macro, since macro can be broadly defined.
In both standard PvZ and PvT the Protoss player falls behind in economy and takes a tech advantage to attempt to make up for this. This is also because of chronoboost, this Protoss macro mechanic can be used to speed tech instead of economy, while Mules and Larva only help economically.
Protoss also lacks really effective harass, so that tech you're investing into is likely going to be army (deathball) tech especially since you're behind in economy and so naturally you plan to hit a timing with your advanced tech before your opponents superior economy leads to superior tech, and then you're behind in both economy and tech.
I just learned a lot about Protoss in writing that... and now I have a better understanding of why timings attacks are a great way to play Protoss... perhaps the solution here is to give Protoss better harrass or better economic advantages and nerf their end tech units a bit? Or maybe even just make Chronoboost better at helping Protoss economy and take away it's ability to speed tech... this might put Protoss on par with the other races economically and reduce the power of timings...
On April 12 2013 15:37 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 15:35 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct? Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game. Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T Yeah the Oracle is basically the same kind of harrass as the DT. Game ending if not prepared for, but useless otherwise. Drops can still be effective even if your opponent prepares for them simply because of the DPS and survivability of 8 stimmed Marines with Medivac support. Look, if you're going to harass a base with 4 spines and a spore, there is no possible way for a drop, a DT, or anything to do really any damage.
8 marines with stim and a Medivac can combat that easily. Either the Spines are group and you go around them, or they are spread and you fight one of them and kill it easily, and then do economic damage.
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On April 12 2013 15:38 Kim Hyuna wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 15:34 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct? Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game. Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T How is this not a balance whine? Protoss can take a 3rd, it might be harder, or require different reactions, but isn't that the point of a different race? 당신은 이해 못해요! Z is T_T
맞는데 세상에 걱정 문제 없는 사람은 없지~ I don't play Protoss and I really don't have an informed opinion but it's silly to over-exaggerate how easy other races have it.
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On April 12 2013 15:44 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 15:37 GorGor wrote:On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct? Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game.Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T I will answer that question. Protoss has upgrades that cost less and are cheaper and that give more benefit (ground upgrades in WOL covered basically every unit protoss built including their structures whereas terran had 3 different sets of upgrades including an additional upgrade structure). Also chrono boost can be used on tech, in addition to the fact that you are ignoring the warp gate mechanic. Building units is invariably an aspect of sound macro and protoss can build their units immediately with warp gate. To say that all protoss has in terms of macro mechanics is early game chrono is untrue and deceptive considering protoss as a race does have a number of unique macro advantages. Perhaps it would be better of him to say that Zerg and Terran have economic advantages of Protoss, rather than macro, since macro can be broadly defined. In both standard PvZ and PvT the Protoss player falls behind in economy and takes a tech advantage to attempt to make up for this. This is also because of chronoboost, this Protoss macro mechanic can be used to speed tech instead of economy, while Mules and Larva only help economically. Protoss also lacks really effective harass, so that tech you're investing into is likely going to be army (deathball) tech especially since you're behind in economy and so naturally you plan to hit a timing with your advanced tech before your opponents superior economy leads to superior tech, and then you're behind in both economy and tech. I just learned a lot about Protoss in writing that... and now I have a better understanding of why timings attacks are a great way to play Protoss... perhaps the solution here is to give Protoss better harrass or better economic advantages and nerf their end tech units a bit? Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 15:37 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:35 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct? Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game. Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T Yeah the Oracle is basically the same kind of harrass as the DT. Game ending if not prepared for, but useless otherwise. Drops can still be effective even if your opponent prepares for them simply because of the DPS and survivability of 8 stimmed Marines with Medivac support. Look, if you're going to harass a base with 4 spines and a spore, there is no possible way for a drop, a DT, or anything to do really any damage. 8 marines with stim and a Medivac can combat that easily. Either the Spines are group and you go around them, or they are spread and you fight one of them and kill it easily, and then do economic damage.
You mean when marines drop one at a time and they get poked to death before the other guys can get down and by the time all 8 marines are unloaded, you're left with 2-3? The point of medivac drops and/or harass isn't to do economic damage, but to pull the other guy out of position. Anything else is extra.
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On April 12 2013 15:55 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 15:44 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:37 GorGor wrote:On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct? Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game.Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T I will answer that question. Protoss has upgrades that cost less and are cheaper and that give more benefit (ground upgrades in WOL covered basically every unit protoss built including their structures whereas terran had 3 different sets of upgrades including an additional upgrade structure). Also chrono boost can be used on tech, in addition to the fact that you are ignoring the warp gate mechanic. Building units is invariably an aspect of sound macro and protoss can build their units immediately with warp gate. To say that all protoss has in terms of macro mechanics is early game chrono is untrue and deceptive considering protoss as a race does have a number of unique macro advantages. Perhaps it would be better of him to say that Zerg and Terran have economic advantages of Protoss, rather than macro, since macro can be broadly defined. In both standard PvZ and PvT the Protoss player falls behind in economy and takes a tech advantage to attempt to make up for this. This is also because of chronoboost, this Protoss macro mechanic can be used to speed tech instead of economy, while Mules and Larva only help economically. Protoss also lacks really effective harass, so that tech you're investing into is likely going to be army (deathball) tech especially since you're behind in economy and so naturally you plan to hit a timing with your advanced tech before your opponents superior economy leads to superior tech, and then you're behind in both economy and tech. I just learned a lot about Protoss in writing that... and now I have a better understanding of why timings attacks are a great way to play Protoss... perhaps the solution here is to give Protoss better harrass or better economic advantages and nerf their end tech units a bit? On April 12 2013 15:37 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:35 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct? Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game. Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T Yeah the Oracle is basically the same kind of harrass as the DT. Game ending if not prepared for, but useless otherwise. Drops can still be effective even if your opponent prepares for them simply because of the DPS and survivability of 8 stimmed Marines with Medivac support. Look, if you're going to harass a base with 4 spines and a spore, there is no possible way for a drop, a DT, or anything to do really any damage. 8 marines with stim and a Medivac can combat that easily. Either the Spines are group and you go around them, or they are spread and you fight one of them and kill it easily, and then do economic damage. You mean when marines drop one at a time and they get poked to death before the other guys can get down and by the time all 8 marines are unloaded, you're left with 2-3? The point of medivac drops and/or harass isn't to do economic damage, but to pull the other guy out of position. Anything else is extra.
Pretty sure 8 Marines dropped from a Medivac in succession will result in more than 2-3 alive by the time they are all down versus 1 Spine Crawler... I could be wrong since I play Protoss, but I know how badly a single Cannon fairs against 8 Marines dropped, so much so that I target the Medivac with the Cannon.
Also, what is the point of double drops then? Pull the guy out of position twice at the same time? That makes no sense.
No, pull him one way so you can do economic damage on the other front. Sometimes drops are used to pull armies around so damage can be done elsewhere, but at least just as often the point of a drop is economic damage.
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On April 12 2013 15:57 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 15:55 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:44 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:37 GorGor wrote:On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct? Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game.Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T I will answer that question. Protoss has upgrades that cost less and are cheaper and that give more benefit (ground upgrades in WOL covered basically every unit protoss built including their structures whereas terran had 3 different sets of upgrades including an additional upgrade structure). Also chrono boost can be used on tech, in addition to the fact that you are ignoring the warp gate mechanic. Building units is invariably an aspect of sound macro and protoss can build their units immediately with warp gate. To say that all protoss has in terms of macro mechanics is early game chrono is untrue and deceptive considering protoss as a race does have a number of unique macro advantages. Perhaps it would be better of him to say that Zerg and Terran have economic advantages of Protoss, rather than macro, since macro can be broadly defined. In both standard PvZ and PvT the Protoss player falls behind in economy and takes a tech advantage to attempt to make up for this. This is also because of chronoboost, this Protoss macro mechanic can be used to speed tech instead of economy, while Mules and Larva only help economically. Protoss also lacks really effective harass, so that tech you're investing into is likely going to be army (deathball) tech especially since you're behind in economy and so naturally you plan to hit a timing with your advanced tech before your opponents superior economy leads to superior tech, and then you're behind in both economy and tech. I just learned a lot about Protoss in writing that... and now I have a better understanding of why timings attacks are a great way to play Protoss... perhaps the solution here is to give Protoss better harrass or better economic advantages and nerf their end tech units a bit? On April 12 2013 15:37 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:35 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct? Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game. Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T Yeah the Oracle is basically the same kind of harrass as the DT. Game ending if not prepared for, but useless otherwise. Drops can still be effective even if your opponent prepares for them simply because of the DPS and survivability of 8 stimmed Marines with Medivac support. Look, if you're going to harass a base with 4 spines and a spore, there is no possible way for a drop, a DT, or anything to do really any damage. 8 marines with stim and a Medivac can combat that easily. Either the Spines are group and you go around them, or they are spread and you fight one of them and kill it easily, and then do economic damage. You mean when marines drop one at a time and they get poked to death before the other guys can get down and by the time all 8 marines are unloaded, you're left with 2-3? The point of medivac drops and/or harass isn't to do economic damage, but to pull the other guy out of position. Anything else is extra. Pretty sure 8 Marines dropped from a Medivac in succession will result in more than 2-3 alive by the time they are all down versus 1 Spine Crawler... I could be wrong...
vs 1, but if you have 3-4 which is common in 4+ bases, it's much harder to harass. What's the problem with 1 spine for Protoss?
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On April 12 2013 15:59 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 15:57 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:55 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:44 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:37 GorGor wrote:On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct? Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game.Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T I will answer that question. Protoss has upgrades that cost less and are cheaper and that give more benefit (ground upgrades in WOL covered basically every unit protoss built including their structures whereas terran had 3 different sets of upgrades including an additional upgrade structure). Also chrono boost can be used on tech, in addition to the fact that you are ignoring the warp gate mechanic. Building units is invariably an aspect of sound macro and protoss can build their units immediately with warp gate. To say that all protoss has in terms of macro mechanics is early game chrono is untrue and deceptive considering protoss as a race does have a number of unique macro advantages. Perhaps it would be better of him to say that Zerg and Terran have economic advantages of Protoss, rather than macro, since macro can be broadly defined. In both standard PvZ and PvT the Protoss player falls behind in economy and takes a tech advantage to attempt to make up for this. This is also because of chronoboost, this Protoss macro mechanic can be used to speed tech instead of economy, while Mules and Larva only help economically. Protoss also lacks really effective harass, so that tech you're investing into is likely going to be army (deathball) tech especially since you're behind in economy and so naturally you plan to hit a timing with your advanced tech before your opponents superior economy leads to superior tech, and then you're behind in both economy and tech. I just learned a lot about Protoss in writing that... and now I have a better understanding of why timings attacks are a great way to play Protoss... perhaps the solution here is to give Protoss better harrass or better economic advantages and nerf their end tech units a bit? On April 12 2013 15:37 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:35 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct? Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game. Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T Yeah the Oracle is basically the same kind of harrass as the DT. Game ending if not prepared for, but useless otherwise. Drops can still be effective even if your opponent prepares for them simply because of the DPS and survivability of 8 stimmed Marines with Medivac support. Look, if you're going to harass a base with 4 spines and a spore, there is no possible way for a drop, a DT, or anything to do really any damage. 8 marines with stim and a Medivac can combat that easily. Either the Spines are group and you go around them, or they are spread and you fight one of them and kill it easily, and then do economic damage. You mean when marines drop one at a time and they get poked to death before the other guys can get down and by the time all 8 marines are unloaded, you're left with 2-3? The point of medivac drops and/or harass isn't to do economic damage, but to pull the other guy out of position. Anything else is extra. Pretty sure 8 Marines dropped from a Medivac in succession will result in more than 2-3 alive by the time they are all down versus 1 Spine Crawler... I could be wrong... vs 1, but if you have 3-4 which is common in 4+ bases, it's much harder to harass. What's the problem with 1 spine for Protoss?
With Protoss you're likely going to be harrasing with Zealots or DT's. They are melee and so the 4 Spines can be spread and cover each other nicely protecting the base in such a way that it forces you to engage all of them if you want to kill the base. But as I said with Terran, your harassing with ranged units, and thus can isolate the Spines if they are separated, or you can just go around them if they are clumped, because you have the advantage of range.
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On April 12 2013 15:57 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 15:55 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:44 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:37 GorGor wrote:On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct? Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game.Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T I will answer that question. Protoss has upgrades that cost less and are cheaper and that give more benefit (ground upgrades in WOL covered basically every unit protoss built including their structures whereas terran had 3 different sets of upgrades including an additional upgrade structure). Also chrono boost can be used on tech, in addition to the fact that you are ignoring the warp gate mechanic. Building units is invariably an aspect of sound macro and protoss can build their units immediately with warp gate. To say that all protoss has in terms of macro mechanics is early game chrono is untrue and deceptive considering protoss as a race does have a number of unique macro advantages. Perhaps it would be better of him to say that Zerg and Terran have economic advantages of Protoss, rather than macro, since macro can be broadly defined. In both standard PvZ and PvT the Protoss player falls behind in economy and takes a tech advantage to attempt to make up for this. This is also because of chronoboost, this Protoss macro mechanic can be used to speed tech instead of economy, while Mules and Larva only help economically. Protoss also lacks really effective harass, so that tech you're investing into is likely going to be army (deathball) tech especially since you're behind in economy and so naturally you plan to hit a timing with your advanced tech before your opponents superior economy leads to superior tech, and then you're behind in both economy and tech. I just learned a lot about Protoss in writing that... and now I have a better understanding of why timings attacks are a great way to play Protoss... perhaps the solution here is to give Protoss better harrass or better economic advantages and nerf their end tech units a bit? On April 12 2013 15:37 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:35 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct? Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game. Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T Yeah the Oracle is basically the same kind of harrass as the DT. Game ending if not prepared for, but useless otherwise. Drops can still be effective even if your opponent prepares for them simply because of the DPS and survivability of 8 stimmed Marines with Medivac support. Look, if you're going to harass a base with 4 spines and a spore, there is no possible way for a drop, a DT, or anything to do really any damage. 8 marines with stim and a Medivac can combat that easily. Either the Spines are group and you go around them, or they are spread and you fight one of them and kill it easily, and then do economic damage. You mean when marines drop one at a time and they get poked to death before the other guys can get down and by the time all 8 marines are unloaded, you're left with 2-3? The point of medivac drops and/or harass isn't to do economic damage, but to pull the other guy out of position. Anything else is extra. Pretty sure 8 Marines dropped from a Medivac in succession will result in more than 2-3 alive by the time they are all down versus 1 Spine Crawler... I could be wrong since I play Protoss, but I know how badly a single Cannon fairs against 8 Marines dropped, so much so that I target the Medivac with the Cannon. Also, what is the point of double drops then? Pull the guy out of position twice at the same time? That makes no sense. No, pull him one way so you can do economic damage on the other front. Sometimes drops are used to pull armies around so damage can be done elsewhere, but at least just as often the point of a drop is economic damage.
The double drop is to do damage, but the idea is the same, to pull armies out of position (yes, twice at the same time, and this is a really simple example but if I'm dropping at the main w/ marauders and dropping at the 3rd with lings, they shouldn't use roaches to defend their main, just like using lings to defend their 3rd is probably not the best idea, making these decisions is a big part of why double drops can be so strong) so they have to choose where to defend. I have too often see protoss warp in things at proxy/warp prism's at my 3rd or 4th, and DT harass my main and natural.
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Interesting read, but sadly, I think the sc2 protoss philosophy simply is all-or-nothing. Protoss are stupidly strong at times, but incredibly limited otherwise, and I think that's just how they will continue to be. Rebalancing any of their units would require rebalancing ALL of their units.
Although I'm sure there's a bandwagon against this thinking, HotS is still really new, and we really do have to see how the results go before balancing.
Also, plenty of Kespa teams seem to have faith in P as a race.
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On April 12 2013 16:01 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2013 15:59 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:57 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:55 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:44 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:37 GorGor wrote:On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct? Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game.Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T I will answer that question. Protoss has upgrades that cost less and are cheaper and that give more benefit (ground upgrades in WOL covered basically every unit protoss built including their structures whereas terran had 3 different sets of upgrades including an additional upgrade structure). Also chrono boost can be used on tech, in addition to the fact that you are ignoring the warp gate mechanic. Building units is invariably an aspect of sound macro and protoss can build their units immediately with warp gate. To say that all protoss has in terms of macro mechanics is early game chrono is untrue and deceptive considering protoss as a race does have a number of unique macro advantages. Perhaps it would be better of him to say that Zerg and Terran have economic advantages of Protoss, rather than macro, since macro can be broadly defined. In both standard PvZ and PvT the Protoss player falls behind in economy and takes a tech advantage to attempt to make up for this. This is also because of chronoboost, this Protoss macro mechanic can be used to speed tech instead of economy, while Mules and Larva only help economically. Protoss also lacks really effective harass, so that tech you're investing into is likely going to be army (deathball) tech especially since you're behind in economy and so naturally you plan to hit a timing with your advanced tech before your opponents superior economy leads to superior tech, and then you're behind in both economy and tech. I just learned a lot about Protoss in writing that... and now I have a better understanding of why timings attacks are a great way to play Protoss... perhaps the solution here is to give Protoss better harrass or better economic advantages and nerf their end tech units a bit? On April 12 2013 15:37 Chaggi wrote:On April 12 2013 15:35 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:29 Kim Hyuna wrote:On April 12 2013 15:25 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 12 2013 15:22 PandaTank wrote:
Especially against zerg, due to the massive disparity in macro mechanics. Interesting post, especially about the macro mechanics. But can you answer this question for me: Obviously Terran a similar (though slightly less) disparity in macro mechanics, but they seem to be handle Zerg without relying on timings, it would seem to me that this because Terran has much better ways to harass and be aggressive without committing, is this correct? Terran abuse multiple drop play to keep Z in base while marco-ing up or secure 3rd. With the current turbo medivacs, it is even safer to marco up to keep on par in terms of economy. 1 queen inject = 6 workers and terran has mule. What does P has? Chronoboost only helps in early game. Protoss oracle is shit. Btw, am not crying balance. Just feel how HOTS protoss performing now.. T_T Yeah the Oracle is basically the same kind of harrass as the DT. Game ending if not prepared for, but useless otherwise. Drops can still be effective even if your opponent prepares for them simply because of the DPS and survivability of 8 stimmed Marines with Medivac support. Look, if you're going to harass a base with 4 spines and a spore, there is no possible way for a drop, a DT, or anything to do really any damage. 8 marines with stim and a Medivac can combat that easily. Either the Spines are group and you go around them, or they are spread and you fight one of them and kill it easily, and then do economic damage. You mean when marines drop one at a time and they get poked to death before the other guys can get down and by the time all 8 marines are unloaded, you're left with 2-3? The point of medivac drops and/or harass isn't to do economic damage, but to pull the other guy out of position. Anything else is extra. Pretty sure 8 Marines dropped from a Medivac in succession will result in more than 2-3 alive by the time they are all down versus 1 Spine Crawler... I could be wrong... vs 1, but if you have 3-4 which is common in 4+ bases, it's much harder to harass. What's the problem with 1 spine for Protoss? With Protoss you're likely going to be harrasing with Zealots or DT's. They are melee and so the 4 Spines can be spread and cover each other nicely. And as I said with Terran your harassing with a ranged units, and thus can isolate the Spines if they are separated, or you can just go around them if they are clumped.
very rarely when there's more than 1 spine does only 1 attack at once. The difference of melee vs ranged is a big difference and probably does make a difference in the viability of Protoss harass vs Terran harass (also the longevity of units, like we saw in Fantasy vs anyone in the GSL when he kept his drops alive for so so long). But if you warp in 5-6 zealots w/ 1-2 DTs, you can do damage faster than my marines.
I think for Protoss to complain about a lack of harass options, I just say they haven't tried it enough.
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Austria24422 Posts
This, this, this. One hundred times this. The only reason why protoss is not more successful in tournaments is exactly this. You have to rely on somewhat-gimmicks like forcefield, etc. to both defend and attack and only players who have that stuff down perfectly and rely manage to FF perfectly, storm perfectly, etc. a whole tournament long will have success as protoss. And that's hard as hell to do because you have to forcefield, storm, etc. reactionary. It's super easy to make mistakes with forcefielding (overlap, holes between the FFs, blocking your own units, forcefielding in too much army, wasting forcefields, ETC) and lose a game that way. It's gimmicky, no other word to describe it.
+1 for stronger gateway units and less relying on gimmicks to survive/win.
Edit: this is not about protoss being too weak. Protoss is looking very strong in HotS if played well. It's just overall the most fragile race in the early to midgame imo and the easiest to mess up with and lose a game due to that.
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EPT
