EPT[D]That Protoss Elephant - Page 7
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FrozenProbe
Italy276 Posts
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baubo
China3370 Posts
In SC2, I hate the protoss playstyle where it's all about the deathball. I also never liked zerg mechanics so I can't play zerg. And I feel no joy playing terran. So I just stopped bothering. | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
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Irre
United States646 Posts
First, you seem to have this insistence on "non committal" early game aggression. Maybe protoss has to commit a little more to their aggressive plays, but the potential for game ending maneuvers and terrible terrible damage is so much higher. a slight overstep in the early game could cause an extra round or 2 of warp ins to basically end the game for either race. Neither race really has a true "non commital" aggression. They are committing something, delaying tech or leaving themselves vulnerable in some way. This is why MC, Genius, and especially Squirtle have been so sucessful with the way they play. They either shut down those playstyles with their own aggression, or know exactly how to use those "committals" from the other races to do some sort of timing for a win. It's not really any different than how Life has been successful vs terran. Most of what you say comes down to mid game mobility, not early game...and thats just how the game is made to have some races stronger at different points. Blizzard has greatly improved this though for protoss with better air units, cheaper DTs, and there will be much more to explore. I think the warp gate mechanic is probably something that could change up some things to make protoss more dynamic, but that would change the entire race and blizzard arent going to change the primary design of the race, so its pointless to discuss. It's definitely something that limits gateway units past the 7 min mark, but it also enables such strong all ins and timings as well as defenses. Id argue it makes things more interesting sometimes. It also makes templars/archons incredibly good. I just sat here typing several different things, really trying to figure out what about the protoss units/design I hate. I went on a huge rant about the collossi, I started saying the robo facility in general is badly designed and holding the rest of the protoss tech back. I even started talking about zealot charge being boring and too easy. ( I do have to say its the only special ability that is purely a move). But really there isn't anyway to truly fix this without drastically changing the whole race. Protoss is really strong, its just not a midgame centric race...I think that is mainly why everyone is not happy. I think the best answer I can come up with is to really change up how the Robo tech functions. First idea being warp prisms are unlocked by robo tech, but not built from them (maybe the nexus). I don't know how you can fix the collosi or the immortal to make the protoss not want to build a giant A move army, but that is where it would have to be fixed. Past that, no idea im glad im not Dustin Browder and David Kim. As I say this, I think things have only improved for the better in HoTS, and this OP was better suited to WoL. We are going to see more and more interesting plays and builds...and lategame protoss is probably even stronger than before. Air hopefully will be explored more and more. I actually think Protoss is going to win the most in HotS. The skillcap, while still greatly cheapened and limited by the AOE power, is still much higher and leaves more options. I think because terran and zerg techs are more interesting and viable, we might see different unit combos in the games which will automatically make the games more interesting. Here's to hoping, have seen good things so far! | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
In fact, warp tech would be perfectly fine if not for Blizzard's arrogance. At some point of time they somehow decided that Blizzard game designers don't have to follow RTS design guidelines one of which is "utility costs money". You have a gateway that produces units, ok. Then you have a gateway that produces units anywhere on the map, that's ok too, but that gateway is obviously more efficient than the first one, therefore, it must have some kind of a drawback. But guess what, build times for units at the WG are lower than at the regular gate, leading to several strange consequences: - You have that totally useless "switch back" button on the WG that is only there for you to accidentially press at some point and lose a game because of that. - There's a huge spike in protoss production efficiency at the moment when warp gate research is finished, which in turn leads to two consequences: -- 1) Protoss gateway units have to be bad enough to ensure that they don't instantly win the game at that specific timing. -- 2) Production is terrible before the timing which, coupled with consequence 1, means there's no adequate way to be aggressive before that research finishes. Well, unless you seriously consider cannon rushes to be adequate aggression. The thing is, Warp Gates aren't inherently broken, the way they're implemented is. Blizzard decided to forego rational design for flashy fireworks and introduced too much utility on otherwise already effecient/necessary units (this and the fucking medivac). The moment the cooldowns on the WG are higher, not lower than on a regular Gate the problem is solved. | ||
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bgx
Poland6595 Posts
On April 12 2013 23:08 BluzMan wrote: There's no reason to remove warp tech. In fact, warp tech would be perfectly fine if not for Blizzard's arrogance. At some point of time they somehow decided that Blizzard game designers don't have to follow RTS design guidelines one of which is "utility costs money". You have a gateway that produces units, ok. Then you have a gateway that produces units anywhere on the map, that's ok too, but that gateway is obviously more efficient than the first one, therefore, it must have some kind of a drawback. But guess what, build times for units at the WG are lower than at the regular gate, leading to several strange consequences: - You have that totally useless "switch back" button on the WG that is only there for you to accidentially press at some point and lose a game because of that. - There's a huge spike in protoss production efficiency at the moment when warp gate research is finished, which in turn leads to two consequences: -- 1) Protoss gateway units have to be bad enough to ensure that they don't instantly win the game at that specific timing. -- 2) Production is terrible before the timing which, coupled with consequence 1, means there's no adequate way to be aggressive before that research finishes. Well, unless you seriously consider cannon rushes to be adequate aggression. The thing is, Warp Gates aren't inherently broken, the way they're implemented is. Blizzard decided to forego rational design for flashy fireworks and introduced too much utility on otherwise already effecient/necessary units (this and the fucking medivac). The moment the cooldowns on the WG are higher, not lower than on a regular Gate the problem is solved. Thats what i said, there is no reason for warpgate to have the production buff, because most of the time it makes this research a solely +macro bonus while leaving its most detrimental aspects alone and unused till mid-game. Its like blizzard was afraid some protoss would play without warpgate and it those cases it would too classical. Honestly i dont understand it, it seems it's killing the creativity of players by enforcing the creativity (since you've researched a macro bonus research you can aswell try to do some cutesy thing with it ain't ya?). What would embrace creativity? No production bonus on warpgate. Hurray. Now if you don't want to allin from a pylon you can actually spend the gas and minerals from this research on something else, oh and you can research +air upgrade without gateway production penalty. I see only positives. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
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Snoodles
401 Posts
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Lysanias
Netherlands8351 Posts
On April 12 2013 23:08 BluzMan wrote: There's no reason to remove warp tech. In fact, warp tech would be perfectly fine if not for Blizzard's arrogance. At some point of time they somehow decided that Blizzard game designers don't have to follow RTS design guidelines one of which is "utility costs money". You have a gateway that produces units, ok. Then you have a gateway that produces units anywhere on the map, that's ok too, but that gateway is obviously more efficient than the first one, therefore, it must have some kind of a drawback. But guess what, build times for units at the WG are lower than at the regular gate, leading to several strange consequences: - You have that totally useless "switch back" button on the WG that is only there for you to accidentially press at some point and lose a game because of that. - There's a huge spike in protoss production efficiency at the moment when warp gate research is finished, which in turn leads to two consequences: -- 1) Protoss gateway units have to be bad enough to ensure that they don't instantly win the game at that specific timing. -- 2) Production is terrible before the timing which, coupled with consequence 1, means there's no adequate way to be aggressive before that research finishes. Well, unless you seriously consider cannon rushes to be adequate aggression. The thing is, Warp Gates aren't inherently broken, the way they're implemented is. Blizzard decided to forego rational design for flashy fireworks and introduced too much utility on otherwise already effecient/necessary units (this and the fucking medivac). The moment the cooldowns on the WG are higher, not lower than on a regular Gate the problem is solved. Well said, i would fully agree with this. | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
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Insoleet
France1806 Posts
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StreetWise
United States594 Posts
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BeyondCtrL
Sweden642 Posts
Most people are talking about the state of ZvT and how Zergs are suffering in pro games... yet no one is talking about how worse PvT is, looking at aligulac you can see how that MU has for Protoss tanked harder into favor of Terrans than it has for Zergs. I mean look at the Stalker, every unit that it used to be decent against has received a direct or indirect buff. Stalker/Storm vs. Muta is so bad right now, not to mention how you have to park twice as many Stalkers in base for a single Medivac. They should just replace the warp in sound for gateway units into a giant wet fart sound, because you know something is taking a shit on the battleground. | ||
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xwoGworwaTsx
United States984 Posts
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
On April 12 2013 23:39 Snoodles wrote: It would be pretty awesome if there were some decisions to be made between gateway and warpgate, so that you'd even see even protoss mixing them up. "Ok, these 4 warpgates are for my warprism harass, these 5 gateways are to supplement my main army near my nexus faster" Uhhh... huh. Yeah, that's a pretty sweet idea. What if Warp Gate research permanently changed Gateways too? Dramatically increasing gateway production speed, say. Then you'd have a meaningful choice of Gateways vs Warp Gates, similar to reactor vs tech lab barracks. | ||
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FireBlast!
United Kingdom5251 Posts
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Demicore
France503 Posts
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Also allowing mistakes to happen was the only thing that has driven the Zerg early game changes. It was perfectly fine if you played perfect, but that was the problem. If you have to play perfectly there is no room to change things up. That was the aim of the MsC and they hit perfectly what they aimed for, though other then they planed. As the MsC became more of an offensive unit or 2 photon cannons for defense. But it is still a giant flying sentry with a passable forcefield. Warpgate discussions are as funny as day one though. Especially the weak warpgate units. While they pretty much own Bio if you are even in upgrades. (If you exclude Toss support units you also have to exclude Medivacs in your discussion) Funny thing is that Toss can go ahead in upgrades with no ability for the Terran to catch up. Damn you shield technology that is upgradeable, lucky Terrans have EMPs though. And can now actually save their Ghosts in an engagement with Medivacs. | ||
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Crownlol
United States3726 Posts
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Ammoth
Sweden391 Posts
On April 12 2013 23:39 Snoodles wrote: It would be pretty awesome if there were some decisions to be made between gateway and warpgate, so that you'd even see even protoss mixing them up. "Ok, these 4 warpgates are for my warprism harass, these 5 gateways are to supplement my main army near my nexus faster" I think this could be really cool, that way warpgate isnt a "braindead must have upgrade". This coupled with what the others said with increased warp in cooldown instead of reduced makes alot of sense. | ||
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