On April 10 2013 22:07 Champloo wrote: This is so stupid, why didn't they just make it based on nationality like the last WCS?
At least Europe will have mainly European players in it, but NA is not even worth watching for me now, and I would definitely be pissed if I was a NA pro player.
There are no true NA pro players, that's the problem. Semi-pros at best, but most of them are still studying or working part-time or something.
What about HuK, GosWser, Scarlett or IdrA ? They are legitimate pro-players who are all-in in their respective e-sport careers.
You are right, there are some. But definitely not enough to warrant a region locked 64 man tournament with that prize pool.
Anyways, I wonder whether some NA player will move to EU now. I mean, competition too tough in your region? Then move to one where it is not! That's what the Koreans did after all.
On April 10 2013 22:07 Champloo wrote: This is so stupid, why didn't they just make it based on nationality like the last WCS?
At least Europe will have mainly European players in it, but NA is not even worth watching for me now, and I would definitely be pissed if I was a NA pro player.
There are no true NA pro players, that's the problem. Semi-pros at best, but most of them are still studying or working part-time or something.
What about HuK, GosWser, Scarlett or IdrA ? They are legitimate pro-players who are all-in in their respective e-sport careers.
You are right, there are some. But definitely not enough to warrant a region locked 64 man tournament with that prize pool.
Anyways, I wonder whether some NA player will move to EU now. I mean, competition too tough in your region? Then move to one where it is not! That's what the Koreans did after all.
Off line will make it as good as a region lock. Once that happens, the NA players will get their shot. After this, I think Blizzard will likely step up their efforts to get this thing off line ASAP.
On April 10 2013 22:07 Champloo wrote: This is so stupid, why didn't they just make it based on nationality like the last WCS?
At least Europe will have mainly European players in it, but NA is not even worth watching for me now, and I would definitely be pissed if I was a NA pro player.
There are no true NA pro players, that's the problem. Semi-pros at best, but most of them are still studying or working part-time or something.
What about HuK, GosWser, Scarlett or IdrA ? They are legitimate pro-players who are all-in in their respective e-sport careers.
Scarlett is in Korea, and is the only one of the players you mentioned to post any decent results lately. Idra has stated openly that they stream more than they should and that it is affecting their training.
If we go by the strict definition of professional player, i.e someone who gets paid to play, then there are quite a few. If we mean professional is in comparable to korean players in terms of practice regimen and effort invested, then there almost none. Scarlett probably, Major maybe, don't know enough about 8th current status. Can't really think of any others off the cuff.
In Europe we have a few more, but more and more international players are realizing that streaming generates a safe and dependable source of income, at least compared to tournaments, and requires much less in terms of blood, sweat, and aching wrists. If you want to compete with koreans, you need to practice like koreans, and likely in Korea, which means huge sacrifices that for most foreign players simply aren't worth it, all for a very small chance to perhaps do well at some point in a major tournament. The math just doesn't add up. And with this influx of korean pros into the WCS, the incentive to try and remain competative with korea will be almost nil.
Catz is right, we need more regional content to encourage foreign players to actually practice hard, give them a real incentive that is within realistic reach. As it stands now, telling someone like Idra who pulls 7k+ viewers on his stream to practice harder so he can compete in the GSL is like telling him to use his money for toilet paper.
and reveal that they are only bitchy and cocky because they dont get the money?
You can already observe this behaviour in a nut shell when you take a look at the EG house. I mean they have a team house but instead of practising together, sharing builds and work like a team, they are just streaming for themselves over VERY VERY long periods of the day (well which is fine for itself because in that way they can make some money maybe to help to maintain the teamhouse) and it seems that they got a really poor atmosphere at the teamhouse.
Stephano once said on his stream: "I whish I had friends on the US that I can practice with". I mean: HELLO you are in a TEAMhouse ? Shouldnt he practice with his TEAMmates?
I Like the Idea of EG having a house where players live together but they are not using this infrastructure they have set up. Its nothing near effective like the Korean team houses.
This got nothing to do with money but everything to do with the growth of the NA scene. The NA is dead if this is going to happen.
And I don't think you or I is in a position to talk about EG and there social well-being as a team.
So the NA scene got to make a choice they can either go with it and try to compete but will fail and eventually die out since no sponsors or teams will be interested in NA players. Or they can fight this and simply boycot it to force blizzard to make changes so it require residency to play in the NA WCS
On April 10 2013 21:24 Novacute wrote: At least we'll get great games in ALL qualifiers now.
Who gives a shit really. You don't watch the Olympics because the best teams and players are not there in there respective sports??
People with you attitude makes me sick.
This is good for the NA scene. Sponsors want exposure. This will bring more exposure. (We're not going to see BW 2.0 because the tournaments are much more accessible to fans in multiple regions.)
This isn't the Olympics. Do you think more people watch the world series or the world baseball classic?
Good for the NA scene really? Please tell me you trolling or kidding?. You will not find a single NA player who think this is good for the NA scene I can promise you that
Only if they just want easy competition/money. It's good for the NA scene in the long run to have actual competition.
You post is preposterous. You are simply clueless. This got nothing to do with easy money. This is basically a death stroke to any NA player or any future talent from NA. I expect many NA teams will also avoid sc2. No Sponsors or teams will pay a dime to any NA player simply because the investment is not worth it. Sponsors and teams wants exposure
And this actually gives the NA scene legitimacy AND exposure. How many viewers did the NA WCS get? What about any other NA held tournament without Koreans?
There is only one thing that's stopped "NA only" events. SPONSORS wanted viewers. Viewers wanted Koreans.
And that's not true at all. The reason NA WSC got less viewers was because MLG was at the same time. It was unfair for the NA WCS.
Look at WCS EU one of the highest watched tournaments in 2012 and properly one of the best and most exciting
On April 10 2013 22:13 mordk wrote:
That is not 100% sure. Viewers want a lot of things and its not just Koreans. My girlfriend only wants to watch games with players she likes, and the only Koreans she cares about are MKP and Liquid Hero. The rest are EG players and Gubby. People who claim that everyone wants Korean players are wrong. Of course, nothing is absolute, but it's a good point. Viewership in all tournaments increases dramatically when there's good KR players involved. If a foreigner manages to go to the later stages then that's viewer count heaven, but foreinger only tournaments get a ton less viewers.
Not true Mordk . Again look at WSC EU
One tournament hardly means anything. For every case I can remember except WCS EU finals, tournaments heavily benefited in terms of viewer counts with the presence of KR players.
No one is saying a few Korean players wouldn't be fine. Polt and Violet would be totally ok. But the top 16 shouldn't be Korean for an NA league, where the rules for NA players trying for the Korean league require them to be in Korea. Viewers or not, it is BS for the any player in NA who has been putting in any serious effort. The koreans are comming here for easy money because they are allowed qualify and play online. If they were required to play off line, in a studio, we should very few, if any.
I honestly doubt that, there'd be less of them, but they'd still be there. The players participating in the EU WCS are going to have to move to EU for several months at a time in order to play, and they seem to be fine making that commitment.
Hm, ok so i thought having a few koreans come over to NA to spice up the competition would be a good thing.. however when it is 20 koreans, thats not spiceing it up anymore... thats just transfering the bottom of GSL + a few code s players to another location and making both tournaments worse in every aspect.
and reveal that they are only bitchy and cocky because they dont get the money?
You can already observe this behaviour in a nut shell when you take a look at the EG house. I mean they have a team house but instead of practising together, sharing builds and work like a team, they are just streaming for themselves over VERY VERY long periods of the day (well which is fine for itself because in that way they can make some money maybe to help to maintain the teamhouse) and it seems that they got a really poor atmosphere at the teamhouse.
Stephano once said on his stream: "I whish I had friends on the US that I can practice with". I mean: HELLO you are in a TEAMhouse ? Shouldnt he practice with his TEAMmates?
I Like the Idea of EG having a house where players live together but they are not using this infrastructure they have set up. Its nothing near effective like the Korean team houses.
This got nothing to do with money but everything to do with the growth of the NA scene. The NA is dead if this is going to happen.
And I don't think you or I is in a position to talk about EG and there social well-being as a team.
So the NA scene got to make a choice they can either go with it and try to compete but will fail and eventually die out since no sponsors or teams will be interested in NA players. Or they can fight this and simply boycot it to force blizzard to make changes so it require residency to play in the NA WCS
On April 10 2013 21:24 Novacute wrote: At least we'll get great games in ALL qualifiers now.
Who gives a shit really. You don't watch the Olympics because the best teams and players are not there in there respective sports??
People with you attitude makes me sick.
This is good for the NA scene. Sponsors want exposure. This will bring more exposure. (We're not going to see BW 2.0 because the tournaments are much more accessible to fans in multiple regions.)
This isn't the Olympics. Do you think more people watch the world series or the world baseball classic?
Good for the NA scene really? Please tell me you trolling or kidding?. You will not find a single NA player who think this is good for the NA scene I can promise you that
Only if they just want easy competition/money. It's good for the NA scene in the long run to have actual competition.
You post is preposterous. You are simply clueless. This got nothing to do with easy money. This is basically a death stroke to any NA player or any future talent from NA. I expect many NA teams will also avoid sc2. No Sponsors or teams will pay a dime to any NA player simply because the investment is not worth it. Sponsors and teams wants exposure
And this actually gives the NA scene legitimacy AND exposure. How many viewers did the NA WCS get? What about any other NA held tournament without Koreans?
There is only one thing that's stopped "NA only" events. SPONSORS wanted viewers. Viewers wanted Koreans.
And that's not true at all. The reason NA WSC got less viewers was because MLG was at the same time. It was unfair for the NA WCS.
Look at WCS EU one of the highest watched tournaments in 2012 and properly one of the best and most exciting
On April 10 2013 22:13 mordk wrote:
That is not 100% sure. Viewers want a lot of things and its not just Koreans. My girlfriend only wants to watch games with players she likes, and the only Koreans she cares about are MKP and Liquid Hero. The rest are EG players and Gubby. People who claim that everyone wants Korean players are wrong. Of course, nothing is absolute, but it's a good point. Viewership in all tournaments increases dramatically when there's good KR players involved. If a foreigner manages to go to the later stages then that's viewer count heaven, but foreinger only tournaments get a ton less viewers.
Not true Mordk . Again look at WSC EU
One tournament hardly means anything. For every case I can remember except WCS EU finals, tournaments heavily benefited in terms of viewer counts with the presence of KR players.
Is the only tournament we can actually use since there has been almost no tournaments with only foreigners since IPL 1 and 2 and they were online and very popular. WCS NA was played at the same time as MLG and you cant really use that dataset. And NASL 2 lack of viewers had more to do with the production quality then the players.
You can use that data set though, you can imply that because MLG had KR players it was more popular. Would need a real study isolating factors to know for sure, but you can certainly speculate about it.
On April 10 2013 22:21 CoR wrote: about the olympic guys "you not watch them for blabla you watch them for best games you make me sick etc" i dont find it to quote ^^ NO! i watch it to see germans win and so alot watch sc2 to see foreigns or their homeland guys win, i rly no care good games from koreans in europe i want GERMANS to win, in sport everyone is a nationalist for sure and in esport why it have to be different ? its a bit i also like EVERY european win
Well, sadly the situation is that this is a sport where Non-Koreans are not able to win anymore. Something maybe like Ping Pong where China dominates. So you will not watch the sport am i right?
That is why the Europeans need to improve fast so they can challenge the Koreans and then people like you will watch them again. The way to do that is not to exclude yourselves from the competition but to bring the best players over into your region so you can "steal" their skills. Just see how so many countries have Naturalized Chinese Ping Pong players / coaches/ staff now.
In the short run yes it will hurt the local ping pong players who got replaced by the Chinese. But these players are hopeless case anyway. They have been proven incapable of challenging. But the hope is that the new generation of players will grow up training under/ idolizing / competing against these Chinese(Koreans) and truly be able to fight in the global stage. At which point you will watch the sport and support them again.
Of course that can backfire but the SC2 situation is so dire anyway that something drastic like this is probably needed.
Gotta be honest, I gotta judge some of the Koreans, especially those already in Code S or A, for chasing the money and fleeing GSL. If its a sponsor-driven decision, that's one thing. But to give up a Code S spot to go face easier competition? That's ridiculous. And Jaedong too, one of the legends of Korea, abandoning the toughest and most prestigious leagues?
On April 10 2013 18:50 Jakkerr wrote: In my opinion regions should have been locked. Koreans play Korea WCS NA plays NA WCS Europe plays Europe WCS
With the only exception being players permanently living in another region. Because of what's happening now Blizzard killing their own concept of the WORLD?! championship series.
Ofc it is a World championship series, everybody is able to compete for it. And if the koreans are better they win, no matter if they compete in every qualifier or just in the korean.
On April 10 2013 22:34 Demicore wrote: This is sad. If perchance we get mainstream coverage, imagine the lay people's reaction to seeing Koreans representing Europe and America.
To be fair, vile.Illusion is a strong NA player and also an Asian-lookin dude, so the lay people may just assume that "this 'HerO' cutie is American too!".
I'm still sad though, I wanted to see Minigun and Catz playing in front of huge audiences. Plus, might give a chance for a Tyler or PainUser comeback ^_^
This got nothing to do with money but everything to do with the growth of the NA scene. The NA is dead if this is going to happen.
And I don't think you or I is in a position to talk about EG and there social well-being as a team.
So the NA scene got to make a choice they can either go with it and try to compete but will fail and eventually die out since no sponsors or teams will be interested in NA players. Or they can fight this and simply boycot it to force blizzard to make changes so it require residency to play in the NA WCS
[quote]
Who gives a shit really. You don't watch the Olympics because the best teams and players are not there in there respective sports??
People with you attitude makes me sick.
This is good for the NA scene. Sponsors want exposure. This will bring more exposure. (We're not going to see BW 2.0 because the tournaments are much more accessible to fans in multiple regions.)
This isn't the Olympics. Do you think more people watch the world series or the world baseball classic?
Good for the NA scene really? Please tell me you trolling or kidding?. You will not find a single NA player who think this is good for the NA scene I can promise you that
Only if they just want easy competition/money. It's good for the NA scene in the long run to have actual competition.
You post is preposterous. You are simply clueless. This got nothing to do with easy money. This is basically a death stroke to any NA player or any future talent from NA. I expect many NA teams will also avoid sc2. No Sponsors or teams will pay a dime to any NA player simply because the investment is not worth it. Sponsors and teams wants exposure
And this actually gives the NA scene legitimacy AND exposure. How many viewers did the NA WCS get? What about any other NA held tournament without Koreans?
There is only one thing that's stopped "NA only" events. SPONSORS wanted viewers. Viewers wanted Koreans.
And that's not true at all. The reason NA WSC got less viewers was because MLG was at the same time. It was unfair for the NA WCS.
Look at WCS EU one of the highest watched tournaments in 2012 and properly one of the best and most exciting
On April 10 2013 22:13 mordk wrote:
That is not 100% sure. Viewers want a lot of things and its not just Koreans. My girlfriend only wants to watch games with players she likes, and the only Koreans she cares about are MKP and Liquid Hero. The rest are EG players and Gubby. People who claim that everyone wants Korean players are wrong. Of course, nothing is absolute, but it's a good point. Viewership in all tournaments increases dramatically when there's good KR players involved. If a foreigner manages to go to the later stages then that's viewer count heaven, but foreinger only tournaments get a ton less viewers.
Not true Mordk . Again look at WSC EU
One tournament hardly means anything. For every case I can remember except WCS EU finals, tournaments heavily benefited in terms of viewer counts with the presence of KR players.
No one is saying a few Korean players wouldn't be fine. Polt and Violet would be totally ok. But the top 16 shouldn't be Korean for an NA league, where the rules for NA players trying for the Korean league require them to be in Korea. Viewers or not, it is BS for the any player in NA who has been putting in any serious effort. The koreans are comming here for easy money because they are allowed qualify and play online. If they were required to play off line, in a studio, we should very few, if any.
I honestly doubt that, there'd be less of them, but they'd still be there. The players participating in the EU WCS are going to have to move to EU for several months at a time in order to play, and they seem to be fine making that commitment.
The visa issues will be a huge barrier for entry into the US. I am pretty sure that most of them are coming under a "competitors visa" which is designed for thinks like MGL or the Boston marathon. However, those are time limited and being here all year is a different prospect all together. A work visa is super hard and costly to get and requires an NA sponsor(vise sponsor, ie, employer, not like Kingston HyperX) for the visa. It will be fewer than you think.
and reveal that they are only bitchy and cocky because they dont get the money?
You can already observe this behaviour in a nut shell when you take a look at the EG house. I mean they have a team house but instead of practising together, sharing builds and work like a team, they are just streaming for themselves over VERY VERY long periods of the day (well which is fine for itself because in that way they can make some money maybe to help to maintain the teamhouse) and it seems that they got a really poor atmosphere at the teamhouse.
Stephano once said on his stream: "I whish I had friends on the US that I can practice with". I mean: HELLO you are in a TEAMhouse ? Shouldnt he practice with his TEAMmates?
I Like the Idea of EG having a house where players live together but they are not using this infrastructure they have set up. Its nothing near effective like the Korean team houses.
This got nothing to do with money but everything to do with the growth of the NA scene. The NA is dead if this is going to happen.
And I don't think you or I is in a position to talk about EG and there social well-being as a team.
So the NA scene got to make a choice they can either go with it and try to compete but will fail and eventually die out since no sponsors or teams will be interested in NA players. Or they can fight this and simply boycot it to force blizzard to make changes so it require residency to play in the NA WCS
On April 10 2013 21:24 Novacute wrote: At least we'll get great games in ALL qualifiers now.
Who gives a shit really. You don't watch the Olympics because the best teams and players are not there in there respective sports??
People with you attitude makes me sick.
This is good for the NA scene. Sponsors want exposure. This will bring more exposure. (We're not going to see BW 2.0 because the tournaments are much more accessible to fans in multiple regions.)
This isn't the Olympics. Do you think more people watch the world series or the world baseball classic?
Good for the NA scene really? Please tell me you trolling or kidding?. You will not find a single NA player who think this is good for the NA scene I can promise you that
Only if they just want easy competition/money. It's good for the NA scene in the long run to have actual competition.
You post is preposterous. You are simply clueless. This got nothing to do with easy money. This is basically a death stroke to any NA player or any future talent from NA. I expect many NA teams will also avoid sc2. No Sponsors or teams will pay a dime to any NA player simply because the investment is not worth it. Sponsors and teams wants exposure
And this actually gives the NA scene legitimacy AND exposure. How many viewers did the NA WCS get? What about any other NA held tournament without Koreans?
There is only one thing that's stopped "NA only" events. SPONSORS wanted viewers. Viewers wanted Koreans.
And that's not true at all. The reason NA WSC got less viewers was because MLG was at the same time. It was unfair for the NA WCS.
Look at WCS EU one of the highest watched tournaments in 2012 and properly one of the best and most exciting
On April 10 2013 22:13 mordk wrote:
That is not 100% sure. Viewers want a lot of things and its not just Koreans. My girlfriend only wants to watch games with players she likes, and the only Koreans she cares about are MKP and Liquid Hero. The rest are EG players and Gubby. People who claim that everyone wants Korean players are wrong. Of course, nothing is absolute, but it's a good point. Viewership in all tournaments increases dramatically when there's good KR players involved. If a foreigner manages to go to the later stages then that's viewer count heaven, but foreinger only tournaments get a ton less viewers.
Not true Mordk . Again look at WSC EU
One tournament hardly means anything. For every case I can remember except WCS EU finals, tournaments heavily benefited in terms of viewer counts with the presence of KR players.
No one is saying a few Korean players wouldn't be fine. Polt and Violet would be totally ok. But the top 16 shouldn't be Korean for an NA league, where the rules for NA players trying for the Korean league require them to be in Korea. Viewers or not, it is BS for the any player in NA who has been putting in any serious effort. The koreans are comming here for easy money because they are allowed qualify and play online. If they were required to play off line, in a studio, we should very few, if any.
I welcome this. I honestly would rather watch top 16 filled w/ decent koreans like on the list. If I really wanted to watch some NA/EU master/gm noobs play, I would just watch my own replays...
This got nothing to do with money but everything to do with the growth of the NA scene. The NA is dead if this is going to happen.
And I don't think you or I is in a position to talk about EG and there social well-being as a team.
So the NA scene got to make a choice they can either go with it and try to compete but will fail and eventually die out since no sponsors or teams will be interested in NA players. Or they can fight this and simply boycot it to force blizzard to make changes so it require residency to play in the NA WCS
[quote]
Who gives a shit really. You don't watch the Olympics because the best teams and players are not there in there respective sports??
People with you attitude makes me sick.
This is good for the NA scene. Sponsors want exposure. This will bring more exposure. (We're not going to see BW 2.0 because the tournaments are much more accessible to fans in multiple regions.)
This isn't the Olympics. Do you think more people watch the world series or the world baseball classic?
Good for the NA scene really? Please tell me you trolling or kidding?. You will not find a single NA player who think this is good for the NA scene I can promise you that
Only if they just want easy competition/money. It's good for the NA scene in the long run to have actual competition.
You post is preposterous. You are simply clueless. This got nothing to do with easy money. This is basically a death stroke to any NA player or any future talent from NA. I expect many NA teams will also avoid sc2. No Sponsors or teams will pay a dime to any NA player simply because the investment is not worth it. Sponsors and teams wants exposure
And this actually gives the NA scene legitimacy AND exposure. How many viewers did the NA WCS get? What about any other NA held tournament without Koreans?
There is only one thing that's stopped "NA only" events. SPONSORS wanted viewers. Viewers wanted Koreans.
And that's not true at all. The reason NA WSC got less viewers was because MLG was at the same time. It was unfair for the NA WCS.
Look at WCS EU one of the highest watched tournaments in 2012 and properly one of the best and most exciting
On April 10 2013 22:13 mordk wrote:
That is not 100% sure. Viewers want a lot of things and its not just Koreans. My girlfriend only wants to watch games with players she likes, and the only Koreans she cares about are MKP and Liquid Hero. The rest are EG players and Gubby. People who claim that everyone wants Korean players are wrong. Of course, nothing is absolute, but it's a good point. Viewership in all tournaments increases dramatically when there's good KR players involved. If a foreigner manages to go to the later stages then that's viewer count heaven, but foreinger only tournaments get a ton less viewers.
Not true Mordk . Again look at WSC EU
One tournament hardly means anything. For every case I can remember except WCS EU finals, tournaments heavily benefited in terms of viewer counts with the presence of KR players.
Is the only tournament we can actually use since there has been almost no tournaments with only foreigners since IPL 1 and 2 and they were online and very popular. WCS NA was played at the same time as MLG and you cant really use that dataset. And NASL 2 lack of viewers had more to do with the production quality then the players.
You can use that data set though, you can imply that because MLG had KR players it was more popular. Would need a real study isolating factors to know for sure, but you can certainly speculate about it.
Good point but you statement about Korean players attract more viewers is simply baseless because the few data set we got is actually saying the opposite can we agree on that?
EPT
