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On March 26 2013 14:58 SoOJuuu wrote:
While it may seem to some of you(not the majority) like watching Koreans slay Foreigners and then seeing KvK top16
That is not the best way to attract viewers, while skill may bring in the "try hard" viewers, most people like having some sort of "connection" between them and the TV screen.
What is true with MOST koreans, they dont have any personality and all they have to offer is their level of skill, and the average viewer is not a good player(meaning diamond and below), which means actually can't tell point out who is doing what better(but a good guess would be the korean). So is the average person coming for skill? No they want to be entertained.
How does the average viewer get entertainment value from a SC2 match? Connection with the player.
People like watching personalities and thats the truth, the LoL community is really based on the personality of the players not the actual skill level.
TSM is the least "skilled" pro team(in terms of results vs koreans) but they have one hell of a following more than any korean team could dream of.
I constantly see someone like ROOTCatZ beating Jaedong on viewers when streaming.
Why? Because he's a personality and people rather watch someone they like and have a connection with.
Why does Stephano v anyone bring in the most amount of viewers (almost) every single time?
Why do teams pick up diamond-mid masters female players? Because they usually have a big following and can be good source of personality.
Esports is just another marketing strategy, if you have not noticed yet, it only exist and will continue to exist if it can bring in a good ROI.
So does letting koreans rape(lets be honest here) foreingers promote good ROI?
No, if people want "the hardcore learning skill" games they will go watch the koreans.
But most people enjoy a game where IdrA is on stage vs Cruncher and is smack talking him.
They want to be entertained and at the same time see a good game(which foreigners can pull off well)
while they have some connection with them.
I like the step blizzard is taking, and its the BEST option if they want this game to survive past post-expansion hype.
If youre butt hurt that you wont see the highest quality games, we know where to find the KvK games(which will be some sort of GSL/OSL/etc) but youre a minority. Also why dont you have some trust in our damn foreigners. If you can't beat them then you can always learn from them.
Does this mean we wont see Koreans at any foreign event? Doubt it there are alot of Koreans on foreign teams now, and also im sure theyll make some global tournament where top players from each "LCS:" will play
my 2 cents.
I think it's a weak argument to say that Koreans don't have any personality.
They're in a different country with a completely different language norm. I bet most people who follow SC2 in Korea know the personalities of most of the code a/s players with ease. I bet that Koreans see players like CatZ and Minigun and wonder why they're so popular. I think there needs to be a lot of education about players personalities. SPL does a great job of this by doing the little time filler interviews with the teams, I bet if you sat down and watched one of those in the breaks of GSL about the players who are playing you'd easily find personality traits in the players. Right now everyone who doesn't do any type of self education on players dislike Koreans because of their perception of no personality.
Sure you get some players who have no personality at all, but you get them in the foreign scene as well. Look at all the players who aren't popular but Koreans or top level pros in the foreign scene, then they can't do a repeat performance, most probably due to the increased pressure, stress or nervousness and then get called patch zergs, fluked, cheeser etc.
It's an entirely subjective field at the moment and the only way that foreigners can get a glimpse of Korean players personalities is via the use of interviews in downtime. The language barrier is the key thing that needs to be overcome for more Korean players to be liked. Korean players put more time into their game rather then selling themselves thus you get the perception of not knowing who they are, and when they "upset" people call it a fluke.
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I haven't been this confused since the last labor leadership spill (OH! Inside Joke of Australian politics)
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On March 26 2013 15:38 .maLice. wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 15:28 BackSideAttack wrote:On March 26 2013 14:58 SoOJuuu wrote:
While it may seem to some of you(not the majority) like watching Koreans slay Foreigners and then seeing KvK top16
That is not the best way to attract viewers, while skill may bring in the "try hard" viewers, most people like having some sort of "connection" between them and the TV screen.
What is true with MOST koreans, they dont have any personality and all they have to offer is their level of skill, and the average viewer is not a good player(meaning diamond and below), which means actually can't tell point out who is doing what better(but a good guess would be the korean). So is the average person coming for skill? No they want to be entertained.
How does the average viewer get entertainment value from a SC2 match? Connection with the player.
People like watching personalities and thats the truth, the LoL community is really based on the personality of the players not the actual skill level.
TSM is the least "skilled" pro team(in terms of results vs koreans) but they have one hell of a following more than any korean team could dream of.
I constantly see someone like ROOTCatZ beating Jaedong on viewers when streaming.
Why? Because he's a personality and people rather watch someone they like and have a connection with.
Why does Stephano v anyone bring in the most amount of viewers (almost) every single time?
Why do teams pick up diamond-mid masters female players? Because they usually have a big following and can be good source of personality.
Esports is just another marketing strategy, if you have not noticed yet, it only exist and will continue to exist if it can bring in a good ROI.
So does letting koreans rape(lets be honest here) foreingers promote good ROI?
No, if people want "the hardcore learning skill" games they will go watch the koreans.
But most people enjoy a game where IdrA is on stage vs Cruncher and is smack talking him.
They want to be entertained and at the same time see a good game(which foreigners can pull off well)
while they have some connection with them.
I like the step blizzard is taking, and its the BEST option if they want this game to survive past post-expansion hype.
If youre butt hurt that you wont see the highest quality games, we know where to find the KvK games(which will be some sort of GSL/OSL/etc) but youre a minority. Also why dont you have some trust in our damn foreigners. If you can't beat them then you can always learn from them.
Does this mean we wont see Koreans at any foreign event? Doubt it there are alot of Koreans on foreign teams now, and also im sure theyll make some global tournament where top players from each "LCS:" will play
my 2 cents. It doesn't take a GM player to see that Life vs Last was a much higher quality and more entertaining game than Thorzain vs Killer. People like seeing non stop pockets of aggression everywhere along the map, not afk macro till 50 minutes then death ball vs death ball. There's a reason why the general consensus is that Hots is a much more spectator friendly game than WoL. How the hell do you know what people like to see?
Go read the LRs, and twitter feeds. I think its general consensus that people like Hots more than WoL because it's more action packed and strays away from death ball against death ball confrontations.
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On March 26 2013 12:03 feanor1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 11:02 Canucklehead wrote:On March 26 2013 10:56 eviltomahawk wrote:On March 26 2013 10:49 holy_war wrote:Torte de Lini just posted this on reddit: Some IPL people are going to Blizzard to help create a sort of regionalized LCS/WCS-style thing.
Axiom sad because they thought (read: falsely) they couldn't travel to foreigner events (which is [potentially] wrong) or vice-versa. To note that there is talk of "region-locking" tournaments, but it's just all speculation.
OSL/GSL/GSTL/KeSPA PL are not dying (maybe Proleague, doubt it).
WCS NA combined with MLG for NA, WCS KR combined for GSL (so they're attaching themselves), WCS EU for DH. Think of it similar to how EVO works in that regional major tournaments contribute points to a WCS sort of thing/seedings into a grand finals idea.
NASL feeds into NA, IEM feeds into EU.
Essentially, this will create a storyline idea where all tournaments are consistent with seeded competitors have backgrounds of "overcoming" their opponent (probably at Blizzcon).
Too much power struggle in SC2 (Korea & USA), Blizzard aims to lace them all up into relevancy and combine audiences to strengthen the scene (my interpretation).
Several WCS within the year (seasons) - several weeks per season. If you choose a region, you have to play in that region for a year (you can choose other regions if you don't want to play in your region, but you are "locked" in your region (associate this with the Axiom thing))
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1b0gso/blizzard_going_to_make_a_regional_riot/ Some more leaked "rumors" Blizzard is going to announce that GSL and OSL are now 'partners'. Both will have three Starleagues a year, the same as it was when it was MSL and OSL. Blizzard will pay OGN and GOM about 2 million a year for working together. GSL champion gets seeded into the next OSL season. Same with OSL and GSL.
I talked to a few people close/in Blizzard and they want to go the Riot route. Have everything more connected. Instead of 40 tournaments and 600 different organizations, they want to have more regional play and to crown an actual world champion at the end of the year.
Take this with a grain of salt, but I heard through the grapevine that Red Bull might pay Life $200,000 a year to stay with ST. They also might change their name to Red Bull or Red Bull Stars. http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/1b0icp/anonymous_person_leaks_blizzards_plans_on_4chans/They're from a certain imageboard, so they should be taken with a big grain of salt, about the size of a moon. It's interesting to read the past posts from that 4chan insider. http://archive.foolz.us/vg/search/tripcode/!GKS1zrZdfk/page/1/Says CJ might offer life 200k when his contract is up and that redbull might match it. Also says polt is getting 3k/month from cooler master. Other interesting things too if you keep reading farther back into his post history. The funniest thing though is he says he wants to keep his identity hidden, but doesn't really do things to keep it hidden since he cites specific examples of meeting people and stuff. Such as a time at work when he said one of his co-workers asked him if he was leaking things and then he said he was forced to lie and told people to stop posting his stuff on tl/reddit. Well then all it would take is for that co-worker to read that post and put two and two together. Very interesting read, he seems to have had a quite a few things right in the last 3 months. Unfortunately now that you posted his account on here I imagine that he wont be so active.
>account
He can just have a new trip.
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On March 26 2013 14:58 SoOJuuu wrote:
What is true with MOST koreans, they dont have any personality and all they have to offer is their level of skill, and the average viewer is not a good player(meaning diamond and below), which means actually can't tell point out who is doing what better(but a good guess would be the korean). So is the average person coming for skill? No they want to be entertained.
First of all, that's bullshit. Because even I in my Platinum league can tell that Flash (or Innovation or Last or Bomber or......) is gazillion times better then Thorzain (or Demuslim or Lucifron or...) Same with Life/DRG/Roro and Goswser/Killer/Ret or Rain/Parting/herO vs Minigun/Babyknight/State. Only guys that can be at least slightly compared are Stephano and Naniwa. And even those are not as strong as strongest Korean A-teamers. Not even close.
Second of all, you are right that people want entertainment. And guess what, Koreans are fucking more entertaining then foreigners. When I watched Innovation games, Flash/Life/Rain/Parting games in MLG, it was entertaining. When I did a mistake of watching one game of foreigners (Thorzain vs Killer in this case), it was a turtlefuck sad excuse for a Starcraft game.
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Here are some comments from the LR thread for one of 3 foreigner vs foreigner matches at MLG:
This is pathetic... At least Leenock vs. Innovation began...
This is not even high level play. This game was boring from the beginning....
wth is this crap
Oh god... and this is just the second game... and I thought Hasuobs was bad.
THere is methodical and then there's....yea...whatever this is....
Thorzain vs. Killer is why anyone who says that tournaments should cater more to foreigners and invite less Koreans should be shunned.
so much for "wol was so stagnant, hots is entertaining" i guess.
Damn Tzain, so boring.
If more of this is what we have to look forward to in foreigner tournaments... yay?
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On March 26 2013 14:58 SoOJuuu wrote:
What is true with MOST koreans, they dont have any personality and all they have to offer is their level of skill, and the average viewer is not a good player(meaning diamond and below), which means actually can't tell point out who is doing what better(but a good guess would be the korean). So is the average person coming for skill? No they want to be entertained.
Saying that Korean don't have personality and white people do, is borderline racist.
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On March 26 2013 15:49 MonkSEA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 14:58 SoOJuuu wrote:
While it may seem to some of you(not the majority) like watching Koreans slay Foreigners and then seeing KvK top16
That is not the best way to attract viewers, while skill may bring in the "try hard" viewers, most people like having some sort of "connection" between them and the TV screen.
What is true with MOST koreans, they dont have any personality and all they have to offer is their level of skill, and the average viewer is not a good player(meaning diamond and below), which means actually can't tell point out who is doing what better(but a good guess would be the korean). So is the average person coming for skill? No they want to be entertained.
How does the average viewer get entertainment value from a SC2 match? Connection with the player.
People like watching personalities and thats the truth, the LoL community is really based on the personality of the players not the actual skill level.
TSM is the least "skilled" pro team(in terms of results vs koreans) but they have one hell of a following more than any korean team could dream of.
I constantly see someone like ROOTCatZ beating Jaedong on viewers when streaming.
Why? Because he's a personality and people rather watch someone they like and have a connection with.
Why does Stephano v anyone bring in the most amount of viewers (almost) every single time?
Why do teams pick up diamond-mid masters female players? Because they usually have a big following and can be good source of personality.
Esports is just another marketing strategy, if you have not noticed yet, it only exist and will continue to exist if it can bring in a good ROI.
So does letting koreans rape(lets be honest here) foreingers promote good ROI?
No, if people want "the hardcore learning skill" games they will go watch the koreans.
But most people enjoy a game where IdrA is on stage vs Cruncher and is smack talking him.
They want to be entertained and at the same time see a good game(which foreigners can pull off well)
while they have some connection with them.
I like the step blizzard is taking, and its the BEST option if they want this game to survive past post-expansion hype.
If youre butt hurt that you wont see the highest quality games, we know where to find the KvK games(which will be some sort of GSL/OSL/etc) but youre a minority. Also why dont you have some trust in our damn foreigners. If you can't beat them then you can always learn from them.
Does this mean we wont see Koreans at any foreign event? Doubt it there are alot of Koreans on foreign teams now, and also im sure theyll make some global tournament where top players from each "LCS:" will play
my 2 cents. I think it's a weak argument to say that Koreans don't have any personality. They're in a different country with a completely different language norm. I bet most people who follow SC2 in Korea know the personalities of most of the code a/s players with ease. I bet that Koreans see players like CatZ and Minigun and wonder why they're so popular. I think there needs to be a lot of education about players personalities. SPL does a great job of this by doing the little time filler interviews with the teams, I bet if you sat down and watched one of those in the breaks of GSL about the players who are playing you'd easily find personality traits in the players. Right now everyone who doesn't do any type of self education on players dislike Koreans because of their perception of no personality. Sure you get some players who have no personality at all, but you get them in the foreign scene as well. Look at all the players who aren't popular but Koreans or top level pros in the foreign scene, then they can't do a repeat performance, most probably due to the increased pressure, stress or nervousness and then get called patch zergs, fluked, cheeser etc. It's an entirely subjective field at the moment and the only way that foreigners can get a glimpse of Korean players personalities is via the use of interviews in downtime. The language barrier is the key thing that needs to be overcome for more Korean players to be liked. Korean players put more time into their game rather then selling themselves thus you get the perception of not knowing who they are, and when they "upset" people call it a fluke.
Wow this is so true. I think Nazgul explained this very thoroughly in a talkshow among a bunch of Esports CEOs, dunno which episode but he was invited as a guest. He said that korean players see people like Huk and idra, who are much less skilled than they are, and often think they are worth as much as them in the foreign teams but in fact they are not as marketable as Huk and idra. This is due to broodwar scene being skill based. Kespa players in broodwar were rewarded based on their performances in proleague not because they were personalities or good looking. Ofc there are cases of Reach, Boxer, Yellow who still managed to earn over 100k a year even after they became "washed ups" "has beens" but theses guys in their prime were absolute beasts which got them so much popularity in the first place.
edit:Actually he didnt specifically say huk and idra just X foreigner
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On March 26 2013 16:25 sitromit wrote:Here are some comments from the LR thread for one of 3 foreigner vs foreigner matches at MLG: Show nested quote +This is pathetic... At least Leenock vs. Innovation began...
This is not even high level play. This game was boring from the beginning....
wth is this crap
Oh god... and this is just the second game... and I thought Hasuobs was bad.
THere is methodical and then there's....yea...whatever this is....
Thorzain vs. Killer is why anyone who says that tournaments should cater more to foreigners and invite less Koreans should be shunned.
so much for "wol was so stagnant, hots is entertaining" i guess.
Damn Tzain, so boring. If more of this is what we have to look forward to in foreigner tournaments... yay?
lets say we wanna see good foreigners, not thorzain vs killer
because there are actually a few foreigners who can play decent.
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On March 26 2013 16:25 sitromit wrote:Here are some comments from the LR thread for one of 3 foreigner vs foreigner matches at MLG: Show nested quote +This is pathetic... At least Leenock vs. Innovation began...
This is not even high level play. This game was boring from the beginning....
wth is this crap
Oh god... and this is just the second game... and I thought Hasuobs was bad.
THere is methodical and then there's....yea...whatever this is....
Thorzain vs. Killer is why anyone who says that tournaments should cater more to foreigners and invite less Koreans should be shunned.
so much for "wol was so stagnant, hots is entertaining" i guess.
Damn Tzain, so boring. If more of this is what we have to look forward to in foreigner tournaments... yay?
that was spoon vs spoon though... not all foreigners play like these two to be fair
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Obviously Koreans have personalities. What the argument should rather be than "They dont have pesonalities" is: people (mainly EU/US) have problems seeing/connecting with the Korean personalities because of the difference in culture and thats not racist. If the tournament had nobody in it anymore I care about I tune out.
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On March 26 2013 16:33 Schelim wrote:Show nested quote +On March 26 2013 16:25 sitromit wrote:Here are some comments from the LR thread for one of 3 foreigner vs foreigner matches at MLG: This is pathetic... At least Leenock vs. Innovation began...
This is not even high level play. This game was boring from the beginning....
wth is this crap
Oh god... and this is just the second game... and I thought Hasuobs was bad.
THere is methodical and then there's....yea...whatever this is....
Thorzain vs. Killer is why anyone who says that tournaments should cater more to foreigners and invite less Koreans should be shunned.
so much for "wol was so stagnant, hots is entertaining" i guess.
Damn Tzain, so boring. If more of this is what we have to look forward to in foreigner tournaments... yay? that was spoon vs spoon though... not all foreigners play like these two to be fair
most foreigner vs foreigner tend to be massive deathball into GG though. Ofc there are many exceptions
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
What is the thread even about now lol
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so we're leaning toward LCS like tornament for starcraft
but blizzard also seem to think they will do it better
i think there will be regionals, but big events like MLG/dreamhack won't be region locked, they can't just be part of the normal league
i don't want to disrespect but a NA only MLG will probably bring much less viewers
riot do have showmatches sometimes, but still
i think it will be a mix of LCS+MLG/DH
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On March 26 2013 16:35 TwiStEr wrote:
Obviously Koreans have personalities. What the argument should rather be than "They dont have pesonalities" is: people (mainly EU/US) have problems seeing/connecting with the Korean personalities because of the difference in culture and thats not racist. If the tournament had nobody in it anymore I care about I tune out.
You are in the minority. Despite being all Korean the last few rounds of MLG got waaaaaay more viewers than the ro32.
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Blizz should run the entire scene like the ATP tour. Without consolidated rankings you don't have a concrete world #1 and you wouldn't have casters hyping up another 'best in world' every other week. Plus it creates a much more storied progression for players and for fans to follow. It will also help develop SC2 outside of Korea knowing that their events can potentially have as much impact with the players and the whole league itself.
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On March 26 2013 16:35 TwiStEr wrote:
Obviously Koreans have personalities. What the argument should rather be than "They dont have pesonalities" is: people (mainly EU/US) have problems seeing/connecting with the Korean personalities because of the difference in culture and thats not racist. If the tournament had nobody in it anymore I care about I tune out.
Its harder to get a grasp on the Koreans and their personality, but writing them off as mere robots is stupidity at its best. If you (EU/US scene follower) don't want to or cannot get a grasp on their personalities because you read no interviews/translation whatsoever that is your problem. This is not directed towards you TwiStEr, hope I made that clear.
If people would actually bother to follow the KR scene just a little bit, they would see that Koreans actually have huge personalities. Everyone who played Broodwar on iccup / uswest and interacted at least a bit with them knows they are funny, honest.. etc. Ofcourse that doesn't show in one interview, but really does it for foreign players? Are they interesting or more interesting because they as a matter of fact just ARE? Or are they interesting, because you are interested in them?
I for my part find lots of Korean players interesting and I cannot see how for example Snute is any more interesting to you than DRG or Leenock or even Sniper. (no offence to Snute here)
I think there are very view players in the foreign scene who are interesting. I for my part wouldn't say there are lots of interesting personalities in EU/US, interesting players to me? Yes.
I like to follow HasuObs and Socke because I obviously have history with them and they are German. I like to see how HeroMarine is doing, but I wouldn't neccessary call them interesting as player. It think Naniwa is interesting to follow as well as IdrA , because those are huge characters. I think Stephano is an interesting person... but thats because I have/had connections to all of them.
DIMAGA is a fun guy, DemusliM certainly... but do they really differ from Koreans? I don't think they do. I met sAviOr, Stork, Jaedong, Kal, Sea and I can say the same about them. If you hang out with them, they are very fun and certainly not less interesting than any other progamer out there. My suggestion would be to stop actually 'hating' on the so - said no personalities, but inform yourselves.
I mentioned Snute as uninteresting. I know next to nothing about him. It could be that he's an interesting personality with a nice history, but I don't know about it. Thats why I say I find him uninteresting and not make a statement out of it. Go ahead use wiki or liquipedia and read about Lee Young Ho, Lee Yun Yeol, Kim Taek Yong...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Taek-Yong
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Young-Ho
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Yun-Yeol
OR read BoxeRs (Lim Yo Hwan - Crazy as Me) biography .. visit www.boxerforever.com or just do anything, but don't call people uninteresting, because you dislike them or are personalyl not interested in them.
Also whoever knows NaDa, here's something from his wiki which is very touching, you could also search for his 'letter to sky'
"On 18 July 2005, FiFo reported that Lee's father had been killed in an automobile accident when an intoxicated driver performed an illegal U-turn and collided with his father's vehicle.[7]
When Lee eventually returned to pro-gaming he began his return to the top. Lee's return became one of the most impressive comebacks in Brood War history, when in December 2007, Lee was once again the number one-ranked pro gamer in the KeSPA rankings. It had been a full two years and five months since he had stopped performing in July 2004. Lee's comeback culminated in his victory in the 2006 2nd ShinHan Bank OnGameNet StarLeague. In his winner's interview, Lee dedicated his victory to his father, saying "Yes, it is my first time winning the finals with my mother seated as the audience. But, for this very victory, I give it all to my father, though he didn't make it. From now on, I will do my best for my mother."[7] This victory not only marked a successful comeback performance, but also was Lee's third OSL win, him becoming the first player in history to earn the OSL's Golden Mouse trophy and was Lee's sixth major title win, making him the then most accomplished Brood War player in the game's history."
...
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I'm glad for the consolidation, and think it will be awesome once again to have a huge number of progaming teams compete in long seasonal leagues where you can have organization.
As for the Korean progamer thing, I don't see that as a problem in of itself. Do people stay away from NBA basketball because most viewers aren't black Americans, or many people don't speak English? Do people only watch football games which has players from their own country/culture, and eschew the best leagues who don't feature such players? Do we not get football/basketball/baseball/etc. news in all different languages?
The only reason why fans know little about Koreans is that we don't know them. There's not a huge organization behind them that market these players. To give an example, Samsung has commercials for their products where Stork is the spokesperson. You need stuff like this to give players more exposure, which leads to more fans, and becomes a cyclical thing where everyone benefits. And this is what organization brings.
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2. GSL and OSL share the seeds(GSL seeds from OSL and OSL seeds from GSL)
just like growing cannabis then.
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Region lock will probably only be a bad rumor. Probably that na players will earn wcs points during mlg, eu players during dh, and kr players during gsl. But every player from any region will probably be able to play anywhere. its just that Koreans won't gain wcs points during mlg or dh, and vice versa.
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EPT
