EPTHeart of the Swarm: An Empire, or a Menace? - Page 3
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figq
12519 Posts
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Badfatpanda
United States9719 Posts
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Sherlock-Canada
Canada269 Posts
On March 20 2013 23:56 Meatloaf wrote: OP doesnt say anything about missions themselves being bad... the story and dialogues interlinking them are bland and sometimes you cannot justify to yourself coherently why kerrigan makes this or that decision. Link and Mario actually have coherent behavior in all of his videogames , they are heroes who save princesses and they act like it through all of the videogames in which they appear. the problem here is that were being sold a kerrigan that sometimes acts like a fierce killer in a quest for power to kill mengsk and then romantically sighs for jim raynor and tries to save civilians lives, even after being transformed (because of his desire for vengeance) again into the queen of blades. its confusing and made me enjoy less the story , its not the end of the world , but i appreciate good storylines especially when you try to drive a plot through main characters (like SC2 tries to do) , for example any game of CoD makes a MUCH better work of doing this , and their storylines are not what you would call brilliant. Right, so here is my criticism of Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, based solely om the storyline and dialogue: Is Link mute? This fairy is obnoxious. EVERYBODY in this game behaves like gross caricatures. Why doesn't Link have any weapons and armor, like those I got for him last game? Did the game just undo EVERYTHING that happened in a previous game? When did Zelda and Link turn into a love story? Previous games were about the triforce mostly, now I feel like Nintendo just inserted a love story out of nowhere and asked us to believe it? Is Ganon really this cartoonishly evil? Why do we keep going into dungeons? | ||
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gobbledydook
Australia2593 Posts
On March 21 2013 00:04 Sherlock-Canada wrote: Right, so here is my criticism of Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, based solely om the storyline and dialogue: Is Link mute? This fairy is obnoxious. EVERYBODY in this game behaves like gross caricatures. Why doesn't Link have any weapons and armor, like those I got for him last game? Did the game just undo EVERYTHING that happened in a previous game? When did Zelda and Link turn into a love story? Previous games were about the triforce mostly, now I feel like Nintendo just inserted a love story out of nowhere and asked us to believe it? Is Ganon really this cartoonishly evil? Why do we keep going into dungeons? The answer is: you don't need to care. When you pick up the DS/Wii Remote/controller/whatever, you are the guy in the green tunic and you have to save the world. What happened in the game's past does not matter any more. And if you respond that well, that's not a very good story, no it isn't. But Legend of Zelda was never really about the story. Now onto Starcraft. The Heart of the Swarm story was kinda cheesy. Specifically, it was not really the dialogue (I've seen worse blockbuster movies), but how linear the story was. You are Kerrigan, you go grab your underlings and restore your power, and then you pwn whatever is between you and Mengsk. For me it wasn't obnoxious to the level that other people have said, like you have to rant about it all day on TL.net. The story is not the most relevant part of the campaign to me though. I don't play campaign for the story; if I did I would go watch a movie or read a book. I play campaign to have fun, build stuff, kill stuff, and get that "Heart of the Swarm Campaign completed: Brutal". And it does a really good job of being fun to play, so I'm satisfied. | ||
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Deleted User 135096
3624 Posts
On March 20 2013 23:36 Stratos_speAr wrote:+ Show Spoiler + Yea, I am not really commenting on the gameplay of the campaign at all here, save for the one little spot where I do.On March 20 2013 22:51 Champloo wrote: What a whiny review this is. Heart of the Swarm is a complete success in my book. The launch went well, no connection problems etc. The campaign was fun to play and the multiplayer games are so much more fun to play and watch. This has been by far the best release of Blizzard since Warcraft III The Frozen Throne. You're not getting it. Basically everyone would agree that the gameplay was great (although entirely too easy). The problem is the story. By any objective critiquing standards, the writing is God-awful, and the OP puts this in one incredible and comprehensive post. This should be posted on the Battle.net forums. On March 20 2013 23:40 Sherlock-Canada wrote:+ Show Spoiler + Yea I can understand that this is a pretty in-depth look at things, but part of this issue is around the suspension of disbelief, but the bigger part is ignoring the previously established narrative in Brood War (which did start off a little more casual, but quickly developed into something much more serious).While I can see that the OP cares a lot about this and is a thoughtful person, I can't help but feel like this is a sort of pretentious approach to video game evaluation. I hang out with a number of Cinephiles, and in the past, my favourite movies have been The Seventh Seal, The Big Lebowski, A Clockwork Orange... Movies that met with their unanimous approval. But now, when I say my favourite movie is Scott Pilgrim Vs. The World, they make it sound as if I've conceded I higher-minded desire for art in exchange for pop-corn entertainment. Obviously I do not feel this way. In my opinion, art can't be evaluated based on a cookie-cutter guide to what makes a good story, because you never know what you are going to find striking or what is going to make you feel something. (Vis a vis, Taxi Driver could not have been written by following the consensus on art and character motivation, but change one minute of it and you'll be up to yr ears in angry letters.$ And Heart of the Swarm was enjoyable and moved me. I shall admit that most of the poetry from this game for me comes from the multiplayer, like a well played game of chess or a rivalry in hockey. But the campaign presented many things I enjoyed as well, and they mostly related to gameplay. I'm not sure you should evaluate video games by analyzing their plot as if these were consistent characters behaving rationally because ultimately the trick that a good video game pulls off is making you believe you are those characters. We are talking about an interactive medium where we as players can make choices for characters that make no sense (make nothing but banelings on the final mission, ya?) but we can get lost in that interactivity. Suffice it to say, many here did not get lost in the game and did not enjoy playing it. But I did, so it is hard for me to see the constant justifications on the forum that the game is verifiably bad and that the plot is incoherently written and that Blizzard have sold out their souls by turning their favourite wargame into a romance. (We don't play any missions where this is relevant; we mostly play missions where we kill things!) I don't understand Mario's motivation. I don't appreciate Link's motivation. But sometimes, I find myself thinking their motivations are mine. The more problems that you have in a product, the less the product can suspend your disbelief and draw you in to its narrative. For example, I really liked Mass Effect quite a bit (1 especially), but there are still a lot of little things that, if looked at in an objective fashion, are inconsistent or odd. These could be a potential issue for some people, but because the writing is really stellar in many places it allows you a measure of leniency in looking at the piece positively. Another really good example is in the episode The Next Phase in Star Trek The Next Generation. If Geordi and Ro are phased, shouldn't they just pass through the Enterprise floor and float out into space? Well, yea. But that didn't matter because the story and what it explored was incredibly compelling and allowed you to ignore that oddity. Also, popcorn entertainment has its place, and i'm not saying this is bad in any way. In fact I like the differences between high art and ostensibly mainstream or popular genres (you might be shocked at how varied my musical tastes are). But the thing you have to remember is, these popular genres aren't trying to be anything except what they are, so they end up being fine and enjoyable. An example that I really like is the movie The Fifth Element, and its precisely because that movie doesn't take itself too seriously that its a great flick. On March 20 2013 23:54 Grumbels wrote: The biggest thing to take note on ^^ is that. It colors the entire review in a very important way.I think the notion that Blizzard caters their story telling to 12 year olds is correct. We are not their audience, Blizzard has ran their numbers and they discovered that they can make more money by targeting a younger, casual demographic. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
Maybe i'm partly nostalgic, but i liked the sc1 story way more, in terms of plot, dialogue and overall sentiment. It felt way more serious and mature (i hope i don't offend anyone with this, don't mean to, at least). For example, in sc1, there is a mission (the one you encounter reavers and can make guardians for the first time) where you have to destroy a small protoss force and then let kerrigan 'duel' with tassadar. It was all a trap in order to kill the cerebrate szasz (don't remember how you write it), tassadar was an illusion. Tassadar learned her a lesson by the words (roughly): 'So long as you continue to be so predictable, I need not face you at all. You are your own worst enemy'. This gives pause to the swarm for some time. In bw, when kerrigan kills fenix, she says something along the lines 'you protoss are all so headstrong and predictable, you are your own worst enemy.' Fenix: 'That's ironic, i remember tassadar teaching you a very similar lesson on char'. Kerrigan: 'Yes, and ik took that lesson to heart' Okay, now, why do i like this? First the vanilla mission: this makes perfectly clear how the starcraft world 'works'. There is the zerg, with kerrigan as their new agent. Very ambitious, she makes mistakes in her aggressive stance. The consequences are immediately made clear by tassadar, a protoss hero. The protoss are the 'higher' race, with a lot of history and wisdom, as is made clear by tassadar's words on protoss strategy. The pride of protoss warriors enables them to sacrifice a large group of warriors to enable the destruction of a cerebrate. These few sentences provide a large pool of information, even when they're only words on the current situation. Then going on to the bw part. This makes clear that kerrigan is now more experienced. First she lays a trap (work together with fenix, not mentioned above), and then kills fenix. The irony pointed out by fenix however is twofold. It's ironic that kerrigan uses similar words to how tassadar spoke to her. It's even more ironic that it is a protoss suffering from this weakness (being predictable). This is an excellent example of an interesting development. Kerrigan has grown into a killing machine, much more cunning than she was in vanilla, while the protoss have dulled, the aura of their superiority has lessened, up to the point where they do remember their wisdom, but don't have the strength to realise it. Again, this becomes clear by just a few sentences. I'd almost call on the cliche 'less is more'. I have to say, this is how i experienced it, there may be incorrect things in what i wrote as i played the campaign, but never did anything else regarding to lore. I haven't yet seen anything similar to this in sc2. Maybe the last expansion will change this. More things i liked in sc1 were for example the opening of the first zerg campaign (obviously) and the first 4 missions of the first protoss campaign; all these missions are great in defining the mindset of the races, imo. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13379 Posts
I'm going to approach this game the same way I did WoL Different writers, different people making the game, and so long as they keep the SC2 Lore consistent within its trilogy I can deal with it. I play the game for the multiplayer anyway and just happen to enjoy the campaign (and its achievements  ) | ||
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Savant
United States379 Posts
The SC2 story evokes the same disgust you get from watching those half-assed Disney direct-to-video sequels. So blatantly cheesy, cliched, and inferior that it mars the original achievement and ruins the artistry of the whole story. | ||
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Vaelone
Finland4400 Posts
My friend that played through the campaign before me called the story "shounen", in Japan thats what they call anime/manga that are aimed towards boys, not men (DBZ, Naruto etc). Video games in general just aren't there yet when it comes to storytelling, sure theres some exceptions but these games either have no multiplayer or have very poor multiplayer, all the development effort goes into the short single-player experience. | ||
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Faraday
United States553 Posts
This did not seem like Kerrigans style as it wasn't very clean or precise or more, but more than that, it removes us from the scene and denies us as the audience the satisfaction of witnessing his death. Sure we witnessed it with the destruction of his office, but by doing it this way Blizzard removed a palpable and visceral level of impact from this scene that, if especially when colored by Kerrigans and the stories overall narrative ideas of revenge, is needed in subtly influencing that narrate. This is why Mengsk's teeth are shown just before his final moments, as it's a subtle reference to the more primal and violent nature of human beings, and also reminds us on a more instinctual level of a predator trying to attack its prey But (as many that have posted here) I have really enjoyed HotS, regardless of these issues. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On March 21 2013 00:04 Sherlock-Canada wrote: Right, so here is my criticism of Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, based solely om the storyline and dialogue: Is Link mute? This fairy is obnoxious. EVERYBODY in this game behaves like gross caricatures. Why doesn't Link have any weapons and armor, like those I got for him last game? Did the game just undo EVERYTHING that happened in a previous game? When did Zelda and Link turn into a love story? Previous games were about the triforce mostly, now I feel like Nintendo just inserted a love story out of nowhere and asked us to believe it? Is Ganon really this cartoonishly evil? Why do we keep going into dungeons? all you're doing is being immature and obnoxious. There are massive differences between the SC series and the LoZ series, and you're being childish if you think that these criticisms are comparable. | ||
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[]Phase[]
Belgium927 Posts
On March 20 2013 22:55 Big-t wrote: WTF are you really telling me that you did not enjoyed the hots campaign? You should take a break from gaming dude... You can still enjoy the campaign, but agree that the story telling was pretty shitty. I also think your post is pretty offensive (and so are some of the other posts here) to someone who just put so much effort in writing about the flaws of the games blizzard are making at the moment. I obviously commend blizzard for the things they do right, but I think that it's unforgivable that a company of their level is making us cringe at the sight of their cinematics / story. I personally didnt mind the bossfights (even tho I fully agree D3 was a complete failure), and I still liked sending swarms of units at my opponents. But there are some elements that were just really really bad. All we can look towards now is the multiplayer, because people are willing to forget the flaws mentioned if blizzard could manage to complete a good competitive and spectator-friendly rts. | ||
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BronzeKnee
United States5212 Posts
Even still, I didn't like the fact that Raynor falls madly in love with Sarah. They don't have a great relationship from what I remember in SC1, and the reason he saved her at the end of WOL, in my eyes, was because she was the only one who could save the universe. He apparently forgets all that, including his mission to bring down Mensk and end his tyranny, and wants to run away with Sarah so they can be together. He sounds like a dumb teenager. Very immature. And this is especially ironic to me, because Ariel Hanson offers him a chance to live on Haven with her. Raynor brushes it off, saying that he can't have that life, and that has other important things to do (stop Kerrigan and bring down Mensk). Apparently that tentacle hair is what convinced him to settle down. Very unrealistic. Other than the love story, I enjoyed the rest of HOTS, not as much as WOL, HOTS doesn't feel as polished and feels rushed, but it was fun. That said, I don't remember much of Stukov from BW, but I'm sure it would bother me if it happened as you described. And I think you didn't drive home the part about the Zerg on the Zerus enough. The SC manual makes it seem like the Overmind took control (or killed) everything on Zerus. Thus the idea of primal Zerg being the planet after the Overmind took over is essentially impossible. While you hint strongly at it, you don't come out and say it outright. Great read though. Too bad Blizzard doesn't put the effort into their lore as you did to this piece. | ||
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Sherlock-Canada
Canada269 Posts
On March 21 2013 00:30 Stratos_speAr wrote: all you're doing is being immature and obnoxious. There are massive differences between the SC series and the LoZ series, and you're being childish if you think that these criticisms are comparable. There are massive differences between the two series, and I happen to love both. My point was merely that a deeper analysis of the plot of video games held in universal regard would lead me to many of the same criticisms that they have about Heart of the Swarm. I don't like to play video games that tell me the plot of a movie wrapped up with gameplay interludes. I don't think this is how video games as a medium should be used to tell a story, so most of the criticisms of Heart of the Swarm relating to the 'story' for me fall on deaf ears. I think the real plot and story of HotS and Ocarina are the ones told in the gameplay. @OP's Response: I actually dig your complaints about suspension of disbelief. I think it is already such a ridiculous universe that I threw mine away a long time ago!  (Also: ecelectic music fan: http://www.last.fm/user/SlappyMcGee ) | ||
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n00bie51
Korea (South)8 Posts
I think of Blizzard like a certain famous coffee chain, if you follow my analogy: In the beginning, a company produced a solid cup of coffee that everybody loved. It was popular and successful. However, as time went on, for the sake of business, profits, greed, etc. the quality decreased and with the passage of time the product lost its original soul. It is no longer the golden liquid that we savored as children, but a bastardized broth. Having said that, if I choose to | ||
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Kinon
Romania207 Posts
I guess in order to make a 3 part game you have to stretch the story quite a lot, so at least they have a decent excuse. | ||
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LoCaD
Germany1634 Posts
So in postulating this question it dawned on me to go look at the gamer demographics, and how they look in today's terms. I found something rather unsettling in looking at this data. Remember how I mentioned that Blizzard is designing and catering their games to teens? Well apparently, and any of us who are older have probably cued on to this already, but the average gamer demographics have drastically changed since Blizzard Entertainment was founded. According to TeamLiquid's own 2010-11 census, the average user age is around 21 with a major chunk between 17 and 26, but this does not show the bigger picture. In looking at studies from ESA the average age of gamers has shifted in a monumental way in the last 2 1/2 decades that I have been playing games. The average age for gamers today is around 33 years old, but perhaps more telling, is that more than %15-20 of the total gamers are over 50 years old now. There is certainly some wildly swinging data (in that only a few years ago the annual study showed the average age to be 37) but it still shows, and quite clearly, that by catering to teenagers companies are, or could be, ignoring the tastes of more than %75 of the total population of gamers. As I am on of these 30+ in age gamers I acknowledged that game franchises do not grow as we age along them, rather each new Iteration or follow up part of a game grows back to be designed for the current generation hence many problems. But I am not sure what could be ultimately done about that in the end it is a business. | ||
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Kring
Portugal70 Posts
Heart of the swarm came out, and i was really not interested. I stopped playing a year ago, starcraft 2 had come to a stale form of a game, and i started playing more fun games at the time (not LoL jesus christ). When the cutscenes were online on youtube, i saw them instantly, and i was mad. I could not even begin to understand the lack of information, cohesive storyline that was shown to me, not mentioning the leaked ending. Despite my reaction i bought the game 1 day after thinking. And after i ended the campaign on brutal, it made me a believer, but not totally. I think this story can only be evaluated after the third expansion, because of the missing links, and plot holes that exist, but if we think wol's plotholes and how they got fixed in HOTS, i do like the prospect of Legacy of the Void, of fixing the game, being the last chapter and answering the rest of the questions left unanswered. BW into Wol inconsistencies are very opinion based, i agree with some, i disagree others. I do have to agree on blizzard's tendency of introducing characters/making moments too quickly or too abruptly. It is a bad practice on storytelling: it doesnt mean the story is bad, its the presentation that suffers. | ||
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Kamakiri
Sweden312 Posts
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
But I rather prefer the old way of their story telling. Only Filling stuff between the Missions and you being the silent commander. Not Jimmy who's destiny is to be betrayed by everyone. Sure the story won't have depth that way, but the Story should aid the game not carry it. Atleast if it is a RTS. It seems most people jump on a train though with a cool looking direction. Many complaints are rather strange. For example everyone that played BW and commented how it is strange that Jim Raynor would save Kerrigan and not kill her. They seem to have forgotten that Raynor also worked together with Mengsk and he had way more reasons to simply kill Mengsk right there when they met. Sure Kerrigan killed his friend, but Mengsk did something far worse to his love. And I doubt that Jimmy would go to Char just to save a flirt. Just like a flirt that turned Zerg wouldn't let someone go that invaded her new home planet. But all the Blizzard hate and love aside. It is really sad that they tried to rush out Sc2 and changed their production direction a few times. But I am rather impressed how they try to save it. Everyone else would have started to work on Sc3 to fix the problems gain more money and make people forget fast. | ||
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