Hi I played wings of liberty and heart of the swarm campaign. Also I played warcraft 3 reign of chaos and frozen throne campaign and u know what? These stories looks very similar to me.
Let me show you some of those similiarities:
[wc3] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Prophet Medivh [sc2] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Zeratul
[wc3] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Archimonde [sc2] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Amon (dark voice)
[wc3] Lich king Nerzhul is prisoner of Burning Legion (Archimonde) [sc2] Overmind is prisoner of Xel Naga (Amon)
[wc3] Undead forces are only beginning of true invasion of Burning Legion armies [sc2] Zerg forces are only beginning of true invasion of Xel Naga hybrids
[wc3] Nerzhul changes prince Arthas into his undead officer [sc2] Overmind changes Kerrigan into his zerg officer
[wc3] Arthas becomes new lich king at the end [sc2] Kerrigan becomes new overmind at the end
[wc3] There is a outcast guy - Illidan Stormrage [sc2] There is a outcast guy - Zeratul
[wc3] There is a mystic item - Sword Frostmourne [sc2] There is a mystic item - Xel Naga Artifact
[wc3] There is a love plot between Tyrande Whisperwind and Furion Stormrage [sc2] There is a love plot between Sarah Kerrigan and James Raynor
[wc3] There is a fall of current human emperor - Arthas kill his father [sc2] There is a fall of current human emperor - Kerrigan kill Mengsk
So as far as I understand: The end of Legacy of the void will be the big fight as it were in wc3 right?
[wc3] human & night elf & orc vs burning legion & Archimonde [sc2] terran & protoss & zerg vs hybrids & Amon
Maybe there is gonna be a plot of unfulfilled love too?
[wc3] Illidan loves Tyrande but she is already with other guy Furion [sc2] Zeratul loves Selendis? but she is already with other guy Artanis?
What you guys think? What other similiarities u guys see between those two stories? Do you guys think the story is predictable so far?
well you describe exactly whats every epic story can be drown out to... its just not that easy to make something completly new i am sure you find 1000 movies with same stuff
On March 16 2013 21:55 haaz wrote: [wc3] There is a love plot between Tyrande Whisperwind and Furion Stormrage [sc2] There is a love plot between Sarah Kerrigan and James Raynor
I think a more appropriate comparison would be Jaina and Arthas, or Tyrande and Illidan
Yep, the general storyline of starcraft 2 (and wc3 for that matter) are quite generic. Which I do not think is very bad by itself.
However, what disturbs me more is that the whole sc2-universe feels very 'fantasy'-like now. To many ancient creatures, "gods", magical powers, reincarnations, prophecies, etc. Sure, you will always need characters for a story but I feel it should be more about the different races then characters, political intrigues rather than some adventures in caves. But all of that has been said already for WoL.
On March 16 2013 21:55 haaz wrote: Hi I played wings of liberty and heart of the swarm campaign. Also I played warcraft 3 reign of chaos and frozen throne campaign and u know what? These stories looks very similar to me.
Let me show you some of those similiarities:
[wc3] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Prophet Medivh [sc2] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Zeratul
[wc3] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Archimonde [sc2] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Amon (dark voice)
[wc3] Lich king Nerzhul is prisoner of Burning Legion (Archimonde) [sc2] Overmind is prisoner of Xel Naga (Amon)
[wc3] Undead forces are only beginning of true invasion of Burning Legion armies [sc2] Zerg forces are only beginning of true invasion of Xel Naga hybrids
[wc3] Nerzhul changes prince Arthas into his undead officer [sc2] Overmind changes Kerrigan into his zerg officer
[wc3] Arthas becomes new lich king at the end [sc2] Kerrigan becomes new overmind at the end
[wc3] There is a outcast guy - Illidan Stormrage [sc2] There is a outcast guy - Zeratul
[wc3] There is a mystic item - Sword Frostmourne [sc2] There is a mystic item - Xel Naga Artifact
[wc3] There is a love plot between Tyrande Whisperwind and Furion Stormrage [sc2] There is a love plot between Sarah Kerrigan and James Raynor
[wc3] There is a fall of current human emperor - Arthas kill his father [sc2] There is a fall of current human emperor - Kerrigan kill Mengsk
So as far as I understand: The end of Legacy of the void will be the big fight as it were in wc3 right?
[wc3] human & night elf & orc vs burning legion & Archimonde [sc2] terran & protoss & zerg vs hybrids & Amon
Maybe there is gonna be a plot of unfulfilled love too?
[wc3] Illidan loves Tyrande but she is already with other guy Furion [sc2] Zeratul loves Selendis? but she is already with other guy Artanis?
What you guys think? What other similiarities u guys see between those two stories? Do you guys think the story is predictable so far?
good health :-D
Wasn't it the Lich King that pulled that one off to get out of his prison?
You can apply this anolagy to literaly every fantasty story ever. Prophecies, mystical items and a love story!? Surely SC2 and WC3 only have those in common!
Not only is the story of SC2 "very similar" to that of WC3, we also have a "hero based campaign" (which does NOT affect the multiplayer) with LOTS of spellcaster units or clickable unit abilities (which does affect the multiplayer).
These two "design styles" are from Warcraft 3 and negatively affect the multiplayer of SC2 because too many clickies makes the game harder to play for casuals and creates a gap between the races. Protoss for example - the race with most clickies - is noticeably harder to play than Zerg, because the units are balanced with these abilities in mind. Terrible design decisions ...
In WC3 the amount of units on the battlefield was VERY VERY SMALL compared to SC2, so the clickies of the units didnt have that much of an effect, but compare that to SC2 where 25 Infestors can easily swarm an enemy army for zero resource cost.
So they tried to make a game which "has it all" and failed to see the problems with that design philosophy. You can never "have it all" without losing something important in the process.
On March 16 2013 22:23 CamoPillbox wrote: I didnt realize but after this i am even more disapointed about blizz lack of fantasy......
I can give a little bit of insight on this lack of imagination. Mike Morhaime is the CEO of Blizzard ... the company which produces the biggest mmoRPG on the planet. Now watch this video and look for his reaction to ROLEPLAYING ...
He has no clue what roleplaying is about and I think it might be the same ignorance going on about a lot of important things in other departments as well. They tried to grab all the good stuff from several franchises to create a "super franchise" ... but they failed IMO.
The fall of Blizzard (Metzen). SC1/BW for life. Playing those campaigns in SC2 ATM with the community made mod/maps. They're infinitely better than this generic fantasy drivel and were epic before epic was a buzzword.
The Orcs were the beginning of the Invasion of the burning Legion and Medivh was the one that lead the Legion to this world.
But yes similarities usually occur if you read books that are done by the same author, even if its a complete different world. Unless the author changed his interests.
The happening in Warcraft 3 seem to have really driven the Story in Sc2. Funny thing is I disliked Warcraft 3s story alot because of how it treated the Warcraft 1 and 2 story.
Well yes, the are similar. Since SC1 came before WC3, WC3 copied SC1 story. Then SC2 added some parts of WC3 into SC universe :D
But these stories are similar to many other stories if you look for it. BTW, in your list you put Zeratul as both Medivh and Illidan. He cannot be both and that still be considered as an argument in this comparison. Also love plot stuff is also not an argument. WC3 love plot has no other connection to Arthas.
Also Mengsk is much more complex and interesting then whatever humans are in WC3. Also there is no Jim Raynor counterpart in WC3 and he is main character of SC universe.
So let me put it this way in some of the best fantasy movies there is always something like : - A prophecy, a legend , a myth something like that. - Well bad guy that wanna blow up and kill stuff - You can't say the overmind is the prisoner , you could say Sarah might be with her mind not beeing her own - Usually there are sign of what's to come and meh they don't really look the same here - Like 95% of the time there is a traitor, someone who changes sides but the most intresting is how they change side and why and again there is a big difference of what happens to them - The hero that sacrifices himself , total different reasons and situation. - the outcasts hmmm - really a mystic item in a fantasy series ? show me a series WITHOUT one. - Love ... well some like it and it should be there in any fantasy to give us hope - Kings change a lot , other take their place ... and well you gotta have humans in your fantasys . The reasons they are changed is so different and the plot behind it.
So unless you wanted to point out that the both games have important things that make a great fantasy then you are right.
On March 16 2013 22:31 Greenwizard wrote: So unless you wanted to point out that the both games have important things that make a great fantasy then you are right.
But its sci-fi !!!
I kind of dissapointed, because I predicted a 80% possible ending of Legacy of the void. The final fight between all races, also it will possible be a mission with timer as it were in wc3.
Don't really think this is "busted". This was repeatedly pointed out in the shit-storm of criticism and complaints of WoL's storyline. A lot of people already knew that Metzen was a hack and is just recycling his previous stories by copy/pasting them.
Well yes, the are similar. Since SC1 came before WC3, WC3 copied SC1 story. Then SC2 added some parts of WC3 into SC universe :D
But these stories are similar to many other stories if you look for it. BTW, in your list you put Zeratul as both Medivh and Illidan. He cannot be both and that still be considered as an argument in this comparison. Also love plot stuff is also not an argument. WC3 love plot has no other connection to Arthas.
Also Mengsk is much more complex and interesting then whatever humans are in WC3. Also there is no Jim Raynor counterpart in WC3 and he is main character of SC universe.
Actually, most of the things that make SC's story like WC's were retconned into the storyline during SC2. Oh, and Mengsk has no personality or depth in SC2 whatsoever. Put a cardboard cutout in his place and it would have the same effect.
People did this for WC3 already comparing it to lotr/warhammer/whatever rofl.
These analogies are silly as fuck, you can find the same themes in every goddamn story. Modern fantasy probably comes the closest to Tolkien's world but Tolkien based almost everything on Norse mythology.
On March 16 2013 22:31 Greenwizard wrote: So unless you wanted to point out that the both games have important things that make a great fantasy then you are right.
But its sci-fi !!!
I kind of dissapointed, because I predicted a 80% possible ending of Legacy of the void. The final fight between all races, also it will possible be a mission with timer as it were in wc3.
predicting story elements is nothing new, all you need to do is check what loose strings there are and give a generic method of tieing up that string, such as: kerrigan and jim will probably either die together, or get to have a happily ever after ending.
more specific story prediction can easily be done by finding multiple related loose strings and tieing up all of them at the same time, such as: amon is predicted to take control of the zerg at some point, interestingly enough blizz created a zerg faction which kerrigan no longer controls (the abandoned zerg broodmother niadra on the protoss vessel on its way to shakuras), amon will probably take control of those and become a new zerg faction that will need to be dealt with in LOTV, that zerg faction will most likely have hybrid allies as well.
also, as many others have already said, most of the comparisons presented in the OP are just descriptions of generic fantasy plot twists or more or less essential fantasy plot elements (like a love story or a magic thing. is anyone surprised about a fantasy story having that?).
and come on, who did not expect the story to end in some epic battle involving all the races? that's an extremely generic fantasy ending and people would be dissappointed if it didn't end that way.
On March 16 2013 22:54 Azurues wrote: Flash vs MVP somewhere please?
We forgot, yeah:
[wc3] Moon vs Grubby [sc2] Moon vs Grubby
Also, take a look at the box covers for the expansion sets: + Show Spoiler +
Some good person fought the evil, but the evil obsessed him/her, and now he/she is frenzied and powerful king/queen and the major figure of the expansion story.
A bunch of: [wc3] There is typical fiction plot device X. [sc2] There is typical fiction plot device X.
doesn't really do it for me, sorry. I could probably take all your points and do the same thing for Star Wars, LotR and whatever fantasy story you can think of.
On March 16 2013 22:30 -Archangel- wrote: Well yes, the are similar. Since SC1 came before WC3, WC3 copied SC1 story. Then SC2 added some parts of WC3 into SC universe :D
But these stories are similar to many other stories if you look for it. BTW, in your list you put Zeratul as both Medivh and Illidan. He cannot be both and that still be considered as an argument in this comparison. Also love plot stuff is also not an argument. WC3 love plot has no other connection to Arthas.
Also Mengsk is much more complex and interesting then whatever humans are in WC3. Also there is no Jim Raynor counterpart in WC3 and he is main character of SC universe.
On March 16 2013 23:02 ZenithM wrote: doesn't really do it for me, sorry. I could probably take all your points and do the same thing for Star Wars, LotR and whatever fantasy story you can think of.
Then do so please. I doubt you will pull it off. There is no "all-powerful but evil and corrupting item" in Star Wars, so its not really going to work.
On March 16 2013 22:30 -Archangel- wrote: BTW, in your list you put Zeratul as both Medivh and Illidan. He cannot be both and that still be considered as an argument in this comparison. Also love plot stuff is also not an argument. WC3 love plot has no other connection to Arthas.
Yep, looks like OP doesn't know of the difference between free and bound variables. + Show Spoiler +
On March 16 2013 23:02 ZenithM wrote: doesn't really do it for me, sorry. I could probably take all your points and do the same thing for Star Wars, LotR and whatever fantasy story you can think of.
Then do so please. I doubt you will pull it off. There is no "all-powerful but evil and corrupting item" in Star Wars, so its not really going to work.
There's bunch of Sith artifacts in SW universe that are immensely powerful and corrupting. Usually from more famous Sith lords like Marka Ragnos.
Haaz OP is a complete lie, he makes connection between slighly similar themes and says it's the same thing when it is not, he also makes it sound as if the WC3 plot was bad, when actually was quite good, as good as BW or even better depending if you like fantasy or sci-fi settings, having played both games extensivelly, I'd say the BW plot was better only because it was better told, but Arthas takes the spot as Blizzard's best villain, he was just plain evil but unlike Kerrigan didn't make dumb alliances with his adversaries. Another important point is that ancient evil, prophecies themes fit better with fantasy settings than sci-fi, but also WC3 had quite good story telling.
My opinion on the OP:
On March 16 2013 21:55 haaz wrote: [wc3] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Prophet Medivh [sc2] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Zeratul.
True, but the similarities exist only if you are that vague.
On March 16 2013 21:55 haaz wrote: [wc3] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Archimonde [sc2] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Amon (dark voice).
I haven't played HOTS' campaing but Archimonde wants to conquer another world, the Burning legion are galactic conquerors, they invade planets through portals, their goal is to expand their hell, they do not want to destroy things for the sake of it, but expand their hellish empire. Archimonde is not the chief of the BL by the way, he's just one of the generals and he is killed and the BL just keeps going, but unable at the time to conquer 'earth'.
On March 16 2013 21:55 haaz wrote: [wc3] Lich king Nerzhul is prisoner of Burning Legion (Archimonde) [sc2] Overmind is prisoner of Xel Naga (Amon).
The Undead were created by the burning legion to help them conquer Azeroth and the whole planet, but the lich king is not a prisoner of Archimonde, it's an ancient evil inside a huge cristal who wants to come out and merge with Arthas not to save the world of the Burning Legion but to conquer the world and destroy everything in it's path, including the burning legion. the Undead shows to be stronger than the BL forces 'brough from the portal', the BL obviously had way more troops but were unable to bring them.
On March 16 2013 21:55 haaz wrote: [wc3] Undead forces are only beginning of true invasion of Burning Legion armies [sc2] Zerg forces are only beginning of true invasion of Xel Naga hybrids.
I don't know if zergs are that, really... I though they were created because of their purity of essence and Amon controlled them after they were created, the undead are a creation of Mannaroth the Pitlord, who previously turned orcs evil but then discarded them because they were unable to open the portals to bring the BL.
On March 16 2013 21:55 haaz wrote: [wc3] Nerzhul changes prince Arthas into his undead officer [sc2] Overmind changes Kerrigan into his zerg officer.
Frostmourne changed Arthas. He served the sword of the ancient evil inside the crystal from the beginning, he just happened to be serving orders of the BL too, without knowing their true intentions, but they could rebel, they were fooled but not controlled.
On March 16 2013 21:55 haaz wrote: [wc3] Arthas becomes new lich king at the end [sc2] Kerrigan becomes new overmind at the end.
Arthas already controlled the undead, he merges with the lich king to become more powerful, because he was power hungry because he could already destroy all the other races, everybody is against him, unlike Kerrigan, all races in WC3, even the BL wants Arthas's head.
On March 16 2013 21:55 haaz wrote: [wc3] There is a outcast guy - Illidan Stormrage [sc2] There is a outcast guy - Zeratul.
What the...? Illidan Stormrage was corrupted from the very beginning, he was in prison for 10.000 years for being evil and when he does come out the first thing he does is get that demonic skull that turned him into a powerful demon, he was serving the interests of the BL to conquer the world after that...
On March 16 2013 21:55 haaz wrote: [wc3] There is a mystic item - Sword Frostmourne [sc2] There is a mystic item - Xel Naga Artifact.
Indeed, but there were plenty of other important items in WC3, the green eye that could do earthquakes, the magical urn arthas needed, the skull Illidan gets... Frostmourne with it's power called Arthas, turned him into a corrupted power hungry version of himself, so he could conquer the world and destroy everybody and then merge with the trapped lich king in the ultimate power grab.
On March 16 2013 21:55 haaz wrote: [wc3] There is a fall of current human emperor - Arthas kill his father [sc2] There is a fall of current human emperor - Kerrigan kill Mengsk.
Arthas killed his father because he was corrupted by the Lich king, not because of some silly "this is justice" theme, the human emperor was a conservatist, thinking they should keep doing what they were doing because of former glories, Arthas kills him to show everybody he was the succesor, even though he didn't care about the crown particularly... maybe to say there is only one king in Azeroth and that it was him.
On March 16 2013 21:55 haaz wrote: So as far as I understand: The end of Legacy of the void will be the big fight as it were in wc3 right?
[wc3] human & night elf & orc vs burning legion & Archimonde [sc2] terran & protoss & zerg vs hybrids & Amon.
That was not the end of WC3, the end of WC3 was Arthas destroying pretty much everybody and then Illidan forces so he could merge with the Lich King, his ascension. The end of the story is pretty much like BW, Arthas is invincible, just like Kerrigan, he destroyed everybody but then decides not to attack the rest inmediately.
OP you have been exposed, keep telling your lies somewhere.
On March 16 2013 23:02 ZenithM wrote: doesn't really do it for me, sorry. I could probably take all your points and do the same thing for Star Wars, LotR and whatever fantasy story you can think of.
Then do so please. I doubt you will pull it off. There is no "all-powerful but evil and corrupting item" in Star Wars, so its not really going to work.
On March 16 2013 21:55 haaz wrote: Hi I played wings of liberty and heart of the swarm campaign. Also I played warcraft 3 reign of chaos and frozen throne campaign and u know what? These stories looks very similar to me.
Let me show you some of those similiarities:
[wc3] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Prophet Medivh [sc2] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Zeratul
[wc3] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Archimonde [sc2] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Amon (dark voice)
[wc3] Lich king Nerzhul is prisoner of Burning Legion (Archimonde) [sc2] Overmind is prisoner of Xel Naga (Amon)
[wc3] Undead forces are only beginning of true invasion of Burning Legion armies [sc2] Zerg forces are only beginning of true invasion of Xel Naga hybrids
[wc3] Nerzhul changes prince Arthas into his undead officer [sc2] Overmind changes Kerrigan into his zerg officer
[wc3] Arthas becomes new lich king at the end [sc2] Kerrigan becomes new overmind at the end
[wc3] There is a outcast guy - Illidan Stormrage [sc2] There is a outcast guy - Zeratul
[wc3] There is a mystic item - Sword Frostmourne [sc2] There is a mystic item - Xel Naga Artifact
[wc3] There is a love plot between Tyrande Whisperwind and Furion Stormrage [sc2] There is a love plot between Sarah Kerrigan and James Raynor
[wc3] There is a fall of current human emperor - Arthas kill his father [sc2] There is a fall of current human emperor - Kerrigan kill Mengsk
So as far as I understand: The end of Legacy of the void will be the big fight as it were in wc3 right?
[wc3] human & night elf & orc vs burning legion & Archimonde [sc2] terran & protoss & zerg vs hybrids & Amon
Maybe there is gonna be a plot of unfulfilled love too?
[wc3] Illidan loves Tyrande but she is already with other guy Furion [sc2] Zeratul loves Selendis? but she is already with other guy Artanis?
What you guys think? What other similiarities u guys see between those two stories? Do you guys think the story is predictable so far?
good health :-D
Wasn't it the Lich King that pulled that one off to get out of his prison?
Where's the part when Raynor consumes Skull of Gul'dan, kills the Dreadlord(I mean, Xel'Naga) and uses the Eye of Dalaran to kill Lich King(Amon) while destroying the world?
Well, considering they went through all the free for all and race subfactions one upping each other into single leader for race -> bring in new faction or race (UED in BW) -> Whole pot mixed, if race fractions it is united again (all the zerg control stuff etc.) They had to either make it major war between the united factions (which would have been T&P v Z at that point of story) or bring in new faction(s)/race(s) (which they kind of did with the hybrid/Amon thing) or make some or all races go into internal struggle again.
Tbh I'd liked to see slightly less Mengks and more other characters or more focus on the new story they are trying to push instead of very slow solving of the old one. I guess LotV will either full on focus to the "Prophecy" or be some kind of internal struggle for X part of game which transitions into grand finale of solving the SC2 storyline.
On March 16 2013 23:12 Nevermind86 wrote: Arthas takes the spot as Blizzard's best villain, he was just plain evil but unlike Kerrigan didn't make dumb alliances with his adversaries.
I remember Kerrigan making alliances but the only reason she did that was to use them, so they weren't really alliances at all.
I don't get it, so they are similar, so what? If the first time you think this way is from reading this thread, well then it shows you have enjoyed the story anyways, even if they are retelllings of each other. Not getting the overreaction. You just want to have fun with a little bit of story mixed in to give context to your rts game.
Hi I played wings of liberty and heart of the swarm campaign. Also I played warcraft 3 reign of chaos and frozen throne campaign, I also played Mass Effect, and u know what? These stories looks very similar to me.
Let me show you some of those similiarities:
[wc3] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Prophet Medivh [sc2] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Zeratul [ME] There is a protean prophecy uncovered by Shepard.
[wc3] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Archimonde [sc2] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Amon (dark voice) [ME] Reapers want to destroy everything.
[wc3] Lich king Nerzhul is prisoner of Burning Legion (Archimonde) [sc2] Overmind is prisoner of Xel Naga (Amon) [ME] Reaper Soverign imprisons and indoctrinetes Saren.
[wc3] Undead forces are only beginning of true invasion of Burning Legion armies [sc2] Zerg forces are only beginning of true invasion of Xel Naga hybrids [ME] The Geth invasion is only the begining of Reaper invasion
[wc3] Nerzhul changes prince Arthas into his undead officer [sc2] Overmind changes Kerrigan into his zerg officer [ME] Saren is indoctrinated and used to lead the indoctrinated.
[wc3] Arthas becomes new lich king at the end [sc2] Kerrigan becomes new overmind at the end [ME] Shepard can become the Reaper in the end.
[wc3] There is a outcast guy - Illidan Stormrage [sc2] There is a outcast guy - Zeratul [ME] Shepard is outcasted in ME2.
[wc3] There is a mystic item - Sword Frostmourne [sc2] There is a mystic item - Xel Naga Artifact [ME] There are Prothean beakens, the the catalyst, ex.
[wc3] There is a love plot between Tyrande Whisperwind and Furion Stormrage [sc2] There is a love plot between Sarah Kerrigan and James Raynor [ME]There is a love plot between Shepard and (anyone)Liara
[wc3] There is a fall of current human emperor - Arthas kill his father [sc2] There is a fall of current human emperor - Kerrigan kill Mengsk [ME] There is a fall of uman goverment in the begining of ME3
What you guys think? What other similiarities u guys see between those three stories?
Generic fiction is generic fiction. It goes deeper than that too. Xel'Naga lore and Titan lore. It wouldn't surprise me if the StarCraft and WarCraft universe are the same just at different time periods.
On March 16 2013 21:55 haaz wrote: Hi I played wings of liberty and heart of the swarm campaign. Also I played warcraft 3 reign of chaos and frozen throne campaign and u know what? These stories looks very similar to me.
Let me show you some of those similiarities:
[wc3] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Prophet Medivh [sc2] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Zeratul
[wc3] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Archimonde [sc2] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Amon (dark voice)
[wc3] Lich king Nerzhul is prisoner of Burning Legion (Archimonde) [sc2] Overmind is prisoner of Xel Naga (Amon)
[wc3] Undead forces are only beginning of true invasion of Burning Legion armies [sc2] Zerg forces are only beginning of true invasion of Xel Naga hybrids
[wc3] Nerzhul changes prince Arthas into his undead officer [sc2] Overmind changes Kerrigan into his zerg officer
[wc3] Arthas becomes new lich king at the end [sc2] Kerrigan becomes new overmind at the end
[wc3] There is a outcast guy - Illidan Stormrage [sc2] There is a outcast guy - Zeratul
[wc3] There is a mystic item - Sword Frostmourne [sc2] There is a mystic item - Xel Naga Artifact
[wc3] There is a love plot between Tyrande Whisperwind and Furion Stormrage [sc2] There is a love plot between Sarah Kerrigan and James Raynor
[wc3] There is a fall of current human emperor - Arthas kill his father [sc2] There is a fall of current human emperor - Kerrigan kill Mengsk
So as far as I understand: The end of Legacy of the void will be the big fight as it were in wc3 right?
[wc3] human & night elf & orc vs burning legion & Archimonde [sc2] terran & protoss & zerg vs hybrids & Amon
Maybe there is gonna be a plot of unfulfilled love too?
[wc3] Illidan loves Tyrande but she is already with other guy Furion [sc2] Zeratul loves Selendis? but she is already with other guy Artanis?
What you guys think? What other similiarities u guys see between those two stories? Do you guys think the story is predictable so far?
good health :-D
Wasn't it the Lich King that pulled that one off to get out of his prison?
Ner'zhul was the Lich King until he merged with Arthas and then emo Arthas destroyed Ner'zhul "with his mind."
Meh, not really, what you describe is just random characters that are similar, but I could give you 1000 other similar examples in games and literature. The "bad guy that is actually good/neutral dude but was corrupted", "the anti-hero that becomes more powerful and takes over the powers/forces of this master", "the very evil dude that is dead-ish and has bunch of guys trying to revive him"... etc, this are common themes and characters in fantasy ( and not only ) works.
There are certainly cliches that blizzard uses too much, like Amon being an exact copy of Sargeras and times when they drag the story on too much. But so has bioware ( ever saw how fucking similar reaper and darkspawns, up to the slightest detail ), so has square enix ( hell final fantasy ) and so has every other game dev. Game stories need to be short and catchy, and blizzard delivers, I am not playing starcraft to read an Asimov novel nor am I playing Warcraft to hear a work of Tolkeins and the people that expect that simply have too damn high of an expectation from games.
I always thought SC1 and WC3 were quite similar too, especially the stories of Kerrigan and Arthas. Both become corrupted and serve the big bad guys (Overmind/Archimonde) as lackeys while the big baddies just barely lose the war. Then in the expansion they work by their own, pwn the competition and eventually become the big baddy themselves.
Hi I played wings of liberty and heart of the swarm campaign. Also I played warcraft 3 reign of chaos and frozen throne campaign, I also played Mass Effect, and u know what? These stories looks very similar to me.
Let me show you some of those similiarities:
[wc3] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Prophet Medivh [sc2] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Zeratul [ME] There is a protean prophecy uncovered by Shepard.
[wc3] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Archimonde [sc2] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Amon (dark voice) [ME] Reapers want to destroy everything.
[wc3] Lich king Nerzhul is prisoner of Burning Legion (Archimonde) [sc2] Overmind is prisoner of Xel Naga (Amon) [ME] Reaper Soverign imprisons and indoctrinetes Saren.
[wc3] Undead forces are only beginning of true invasion of Burning Legion armies [sc2] Zerg forces are only beginning of true invasion of Xel Naga hybrids [ME] The Geth invasion is only the begining of Reaper invasion
[wc3] Nerzhul changes prince Arthas into his undead officer [sc2] Overmind changes Kerrigan into his zerg officer [ME] Saren is indoctrinated and used to lead the indoctrinated.
[wc3] Arthas becomes new lich king at the end [sc2] Kerrigan becomes new overmind at the end [ME] Shepard can become the Reaper in the end.
[wc3] There is a outcast guy - Illidan Stormrage [sc2] There is a outcast guy - Zeratul [ME] Shepard is outcasted in ME2.
[wc3] There is a mystic item - Sword Frostmourne [sc2] There is a mystic item - Xel Naga Artifact [ME] There are Prothean beakens, the the catalyst, ex.
[wc3] There is a love plot between Tyrande Whisperwind and Furion Stormrage [sc2] There is a love plot between Sarah Kerrigan and James Raynor [ME]There is a love plot between Shepard and (anyone)Liara
[wc3] There is a fall of current human emperor - Arthas kill his father [sc2] There is a fall of current human emperor - Kerrigan kill Mengsk [ME] There is a fall of uman goverment in the begining of ME3
What you guys think? What other similiarities u guys see between those three stories?
I can add to that, cause generalization is easy
[wc3] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Prophet Medivh [sc2] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Zeratul [Zelda] There is a prophecy of the beginning of the world by Goddesses [FF8] There is a prophecy of the end of the world by Ultimecia
[wc3] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Archimonde [sc2] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Amon (dark voice) [Zelda] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Ganon [FF8] There is a girl who wants to destroy everything - Ultimecia
[wc3] Lich king Nerzhul is prisoner of Burning Legion (Archimonde) [sc2] Overmind is prisoner of Xel Naga (Amon) [Zelda] Zelda is a prisoner of Ganon [FF8] Galbadia is a prisoner of Ultimecia
[wc3] Undead forces are only beginning of true invasion of Burning Legion armies [sc2] Zerg forces are only beginning of true invasion of Xel Naga hybrids [Zelda] Ganon presence is only beginning of true goal for Triforce [FF8] Edea presence is only beginning of true attack by Ultimecia
[wc3] Nerzhul changes prince Arthas into his undead officer [sc2] Overmind changes Kerrigan into his zerg officer [Zelda] Master sword changes link into hero [FF8] Ultimecia changes Edea into Puppet Sorceress
[wc3] Arthas becomes new lich king at the end [sc2] Kerrigan becomes new overmind at the end [Zelda] Zelda Link and Ganon all represent a part of the triforce at the end [FF8] Rinoa becomes new sorceress near the end
[wc3] There is a outcast guy - Illidan Stormrage [sc2] There is a outcast guy - Zeratul [Zelda] There is a outcast guy - Skullkid [FF8] There is a outcast guy - Squall
[wc3] There is a mystic item - Sword Frostmourne [sc2] There is a mystic item - Xel Naga Artifact [Zelda] There is a mystic item - Triforce, Master Sword, Ocarina [FF8] There is a mystic item - Gardens, GFs
[wc3] There is a love plot between Tyrande Whisperwind and Furion Stormrage [sc2] There is a love plot between Sarah Kerrigan and James Raynor [Zelda] There is a love plot between Zelda and Link [FF8] There is a love plot between Rinoa and Squall
[wc3] There is a fall of current human emperor - Arthas kill his father [sc2] There is a fall of current human emperor - Kerrigan kill Mengsk [Zelda] There is a fall of current human king - King of Hyrule [FF8] Theres ia fall of a current human ruler - President Vinzer Deling
On March 16 2013 21:55 haaz wrote: [wc3] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Archimonde [sc2] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Amon (dark voice).
I haven't played HOTS' campaing but Archimonde wants to conquer another world, the Burning legion are galactic conquerors, they invade planets through portals, their goal is to expand their hell, they do not want to destroy things for the sake of it, but expand their hellish empire. Archimonde is not the chief of the BL by the way, he's just one of the generals and he is killed and the BL just keeps going, but unable at the time to conquer 'earth'.
About the Burning Legion, you're wrong. They want to take control yes, but the purpose of that so that they can undo the works of the Titans, Sargeras, the leader of the BL was a former Titan, and that is why he want to correct their failures as he think it to be.
On March 16 2013 21:55 haaz wrote: Hi I played wings of liberty and heart of the swarm campaign. Also I played warcraft 3 reign of chaos and frozen throne campaign and u know what? These stories looks very similar to me.
Let me show you some of those similiarities:
[wc3] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Prophet Medivh [sc2] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Zeratul
[wc3] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Archimonde [sc2] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Amon (dark voice)
[wc3] Lich king Nerzhul is prisoner of Burning Legion (Archimonde) [sc2] Overmind is prisoner of Xel Naga (Amon)
[wc3] Undead forces are only beginning of true invasion of Burning Legion armies [sc2] Zerg forces are only beginning of true invasion of Xel Naga hybrids
[wc3] Nerzhul changes prince Arthas into his undead officer [sc2] Overmind changes Kerrigan into his zerg officer
[wc3] Arthas becomes new lich king at the end [sc2] Kerrigan becomes new overmind at the end
[wc3] There is a outcast guy - Illidan Stormrage [sc2] There is a outcast guy - Zeratul
[wc3] There is a mystic item - Sword Frostmourne [sc2] There is a mystic item - Xel Naga Artifact
[wc3] There is a love plot between Tyrande Whisperwind and Furion Stormrage [sc2] There is a love plot between Sarah Kerrigan and James Raynor
[wc3] There is a fall of current human emperor - Arthas kill his father [sc2] There is a fall of current human emperor - Kerrigan kill Mengsk
So as far as I understand: The end of Legacy of the void will be the big fight as it were in wc3 right?
[wc3] human & night elf & orc vs burning legion & Archimonde [sc2] terran & protoss & zerg vs hybrids & Amon
Maybe there is gonna be a plot of unfulfilled love too?
[wc3] Illidan loves Tyrande but she is already with other guy Furion [sc2] Zeratul loves Selendis? but she is already with other guy Artanis?
What you guys think? What other similiarities u guys see between those two stories? Do you guys think the story is predictable so far?
good health :-D
Wasn't it the Lich King that pulled that one off to get out of his prison?
Hi I played wings of liberty and heart of the swarm campaign. Also I played warcraft 3 reign of chaos and frozen throne campaign, I also played Mass Effect, and u know what? These stories looks very similar to me.
Let me show you some of those similiarities:
[wc3] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Prophet Medivh [sc2] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Zeratul [ME] There is a protean prophecy uncovered by Shepard.
[wc3] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Archimonde [sc2] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Amon (dark voice) [ME] Reapers want to destroy everything.
[wc3] Lich king Nerzhul is prisoner of Burning Legion (Archimonde) [sc2] Overmind is prisoner of Xel Naga (Amon) [ME] Reaper Soverign imprisons and indoctrinetes Saren.
[wc3] Undead forces are only beginning of true invasion of Burning Legion armies [sc2] Zerg forces are only beginning of true invasion of Xel Naga hybrids [ME] The Geth invasion is only the begining of Reaper invasion
[wc3] Nerzhul changes prince Arthas into his undead officer [sc2] Overmind changes Kerrigan into his zerg officer [ME] Saren is indoctrinated and used to lead the indoctrinated.
[wc3] Arthas becomes new lich king at the end [sc2] Kerrigan becomes new overmind at the end [ME] Shepard can become the Reaper in the end.
[wc3] There is a outcast guy - Illidan Stormrage [sc2] There is a outcast guy - Zeratul [ME] Shepard is outcasted in ME2.
[wc3] There is a mystic item - Sword Frostmourne [sc2] There is a mystic item - Xel Naga Artifact [ME] There are Prothean beakens, the the catalyst, ex.
[wc3] There is a love plot between Tyrande Whisperwind and Furion Stormrage [sc2] There is a love plot between Sarah Kerrigan and James Raynor [ME]There is a love plot between Shepard and (anyone)Liara
[wc3] There is a fall of current human emperor - Arthas kill his father [sc2] There is a fall of current human emperor - Kerrigan kill Mengsk [ME] There is a fall of uman goverment in the begining of ME3
What you guys think? What other similiarities u guys see between those three stories?
I can add to that, cause generalization is easy
[wc3] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Prophet Medivh [sc2] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Zeratul [Zelda] There is a prophecy of the beginning of the world by Goddesses [FF8] There is a prophecy of the end of the world by Ultimecia
[wc3] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Archimonde [sc2] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Amon (dark voice) [Zelda] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Ganon [FF8] There is a girl who wants to destroy everything - Ultimecia
[wc3] Lich king Nerzhul is prisoner of Burning Legion (Archimonde) [sc2] Overmind is prisoner of Xel Naga (Amon) [Zelda] Zelda is a prisoner of Ganon [FF8] Galbadia is a prisoner of Ultimecia
[wc3] Undead forces are only beginning of true invasion of Burning Legion armies [sc2] Zerg forces are only beginning of true invasion of Xel Naga hybrids [Zelda] Ganon presence is only beginning of true goal for Triforce [FF8] Edea presence is only beginning of true attack by Ultimecia
[wc3] Nerzhul changes prince Arthas into his undead officer [sc2] Overmind changes Kerrigan into his zerg officer [Zelda] Master sword changes link into hero [FF8] Ultimecia changes Edea into Puppet Sorceress
[wc3] Arthas becomes new lich king at the end [sc2] Kerrigan becomes new overmind at the end [Zelda] Zelda Link and Ganon all represent a part of the triforce at the end [FF8] Rinoa becomes new sorceress near the end
[wc3] There is a outcast guy - Illidan Stormrage [sc2] There is a outcast guy - Zeratul [Zelda] There is a outcast guy - Skullkid [FF8] There is a outcast guy - Squall
[wc3] There is a mystic item - Sword Frostmourne [sc2] There is a mystic item - Xel Naga Artifact [Zelda] There is a mystic item - Triforce, Master Sword, Ocarina [FF8] There is a mystic item - Gardens, GFs
[wc3] There is a love plot between Tyrande Whisperwind and Furion Stormrage [sc2] There is a love plot between Sarah Kerrigan and James Raynor [Zelda] There is a love plot between Zelda and Link [FF8] There is a love plot between Rinoa and Squall
[wc3] There is a fall of current human emperor - Arthas kill his father [sc2] There is a fall of current human emperor - Kerrigan kill Mengsk [Zelda] There is a fall of current human king - King of Hyrule [FF8] Theres ia fall of a current human ruler - President Vinzer Deling
:D
[WC3] protagonists use language to communicate. [WOL] protagonist uses language to communicate. [HOTS] protagonist uses language to communicate. [Zelda] Link can't talk.
Hi I played wings of liberty and heart of the swarm campaign. Also I played warcraft 3 reign of chaos and frozen throne campaign, I also played Mass Effect, and u know what? These stories looks very similar to me.
Let me show you some of those similiarities:
[wc3] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Prophet Medivh [sc2] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Zeratul [ME] There is a protean prophecy uncovered by Shepard.
[wc3] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Archimonde [sc2] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Amon (dark voice) [ME] Reapers want to destroy everything.
[wc3] Lich king Nerzhul is prisoner of Burning Legion (Archimonde) [sc2] Overmind is prisoner of Xel Naga (Amon) [ME] Reaper Soverign imprisons and indoctrinetes Saren.
[wc3] Undead forces are only beginning of true invasion of Burning Legion armies [sc2] Zerg forces are only beginning of true invasion of Xel Naga hybrids [ME] The Geth invasion is only the begining of Reaper invasion
[wc3] Nerzhul changes prince Arthas into his undead officer [sc2] Overmind changes Kerrigan into his zerg officer [ME] Saren is indoctrinated and used to lead the indoctrinated.
[wc3] Arthas becomes new lich king at the end [sc2] Kerrigan becomes new overmind at the end [ME] Shepard can become the Reaper in the end.
[wc3] There is a outcast guy - Illidan Stormrage [sc2] There is a outcast guy - Zeratul [ME] Shepard is outcasted in ME2.
[wc3] There is a mystic item - Sword Frostmourne [sc2] There is a mystic item - Xel Naga Artifact [ME] There are Prothean beakens, the the catalyst, ex.
[wc3] There is a love plot between Tyrande Whisperwind and Furion Stormrage [sc2] There is a love plot between Sarah Kerrigan and James Raynor [ME]There is a love plot between Shepard and (anyone)Liara
[wc3] There is a fall of current human emperor - Arthas kill his father [sc2] There is a fall of current human emperor - Kerrigan kill Mengsk [ME] There is a fall of uman goverment in the begining of ME3
What you guys think? What other similiarities u guys see between those three stories?
I can add to that, cause generalization is easy
[wc3] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Prophet Medivh [sc2] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Zeratul [Zelda] There is a prophecy of the beginning of the world by Goddesses [FF8] There is a prophecy of the end of the world by Ultimecia
[wc3] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Archimonde [sc2] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Amon (dark voice) [Zelda] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Ganon [FF8] There is a girl who wants to destroy everything - Ultimecia
[wc3] Lich king Nerzhul is prisoner of Burning Legion (Archimonde) [sc2] Overmind is prisoner of Xel Naga (Amon) [Zelda] Zelda is a prisoner of Ganon [FF8] Galbadia is a prisoner of Ultimecia
[wc3] Undead forces are only beginning of true invasion of Burning Legion armies [sc2] Zerg forces are only beginning of true invasion of Xel Naga hybrids [Zelda] Ganon presence is only beginning of true goal for Triforce [FF8] Edea presence is only beginning of true attack by Ultimecia
[wc3] Nerzhul changes prince Arthas into his undead officer [sc2] Overmind changes Kerrigan into his zerg officer [Zelda] Master sword changes link into hero [FF8] Ultimecia changes Edea into Puppet Sorceress
[wc3] Arthas becomes new lich king at the end [sc2] Kerrigan becomes new overmind at the end [Zelda] Zelda Link and Ganon all represent a part of the triforce at the end [FF8] Rinoa becomes new sorceress near the end
[wc3] There is a outcast guy - Illidan Stormrage [sc2] There is a outcast guy - Zeratul [Zelda] There is a outcast guy - Skullkid [FF8] There is a outcast guy - Squall
[wc3] There is a mystic item - Sword Frostmourne [sc2] There is a mystic item - Xel Naga Artifact [Zelda] There is a mystic item - Triforce, Master Sword, Ocarina [FF8] There is a mystic item - Gardens, GFs
[wc3] There is a love plot between Tyrande Whisperwind and Furion Stormrage [sc2] There is a love plot between Sarah Kerrigan and James Raynor [Zelda] There is a love plot between Zelda and Link [FF8] There is a love plot between Rinoa and Squall
[wc3] There is a fall of current human emperor - Arthas kill his father [sc2] There is a fall of current human emperor - Kerrigan kill Mengsk [Zelda] There is a fall of current human king - King of Hyrule [FF8] Theres ia fall of a current human ruler - President Vinzer Deling
:D
hahaha, as someone who played all of those games, i had a very good laugh. thank you
I don't think the problem is that Blizzard used a bunch of trashy, recycled fantasy tropes. The problem is that they copy/pasted the story from their own story that they've already done (Warcraft).
On March 16 2013 22:25 Rabiator wrote: Not only is the story of SC2 "very similar" to that of WC3, we also have a "hero based campaign" (which does NOT affect the multiplayer) with LOTS of spellcaster units or clickable unit abilities (which does affect the multiplayer).
These two "design styles" are from Warcraft 3 and negatively affect the multiplayer of SC2 because too many clickies makes the game harder to play for casuals and creates a gap between the races. Protoss for example - the race with most clickies - is noticeably harder to play than Zerg, because the units are balanced with these abilities in mind. Terrible design decisions ...
In WC3 the amount of units on the battlefield was VERY VERY SMALL compared to SC2, so the clickies of the units didnt have that much of an effect, but compare that to SC2 where 25 Infestors can easily swarm an enemy army for zero resource cost.
So they tried to make a game which "has it all" and failed to see the problems with that design philosophy. You can never "have it all" without losing something important in the process.
On March 16 2013 22:23 CamoPillbox wrote: I didnt realize but after this i am even more disapointed about blizz lack of fantasy......
I can give a little bit of insight on this lack of imagination. Mike Morhaime is the CEO of Blizzard ... the company which produces the biggest mmoRPG on the planet. Now watch this video and look for his reaction to ROLEPLAYING ...
He has no clue what roleplaying is about and I think it might be the same ignorance going on about a lot of important things in other departments as well. They tried to grab all the good stuff from several franchises to create a "super franchise" ... but they failed IMO.
I don't get it.. your first statement and the first sentence of the 2nd paragraph don't mesh.. in that the hero campaigns and unit abilities don't affect the multiplayer, yet it affects the game negatively?
That aside, it's still pretty hard to take you seriously if you call abilities 'clickies'.
There are lots of people who look to similarities between things they've done in order to draw conclusions. I don't know how you expect to please everyone who likes RTS-genre gaming.. but do you really expect to have a game that's just the same as your favourite childhood RTS, but in modern graphics? Please believe me when i say that people will still be disappointed..
Honestly, the magic in gaming (i'm looking mostly at nostalgia) is when a particular game has you experience a bunch of new things, and has you remember them. I can see the arguments for why SC2's campaign doesn't quite do it. Let me go on a tangent. Why do you think Starcraft has always been a beloved multiplayer experience? I'd say that it's because the multiplayer allows your fantasy and imagination to take place in the game, and for you to refine your art as you keep trying new things and improving. You're saying that protoss is harder than zerg at the casual level, I agree and disagree. Some players decide they want to throw the art out the window and they just wanna' win, and for those situations we have certain build orders that sink into our minds. We have to be conscious of these builds or we risk losing easily and wasting our time. ..But when you have options all the more glory comes to you when you find something that works and you perform it.
I'd be truly disappointed if there wasn't any one race that had those options.
On March 16 2013 22:42 ETisME wrote: are you really gonna ignore the thousands differences?
Like? (Different units dont count as a difference, because it is about the general plot of the story.)
Saying Tyrande and Malfurion are similar to Kerrigan and Raynor is a little weird. I don't think Tyrande was ever forcefully made an undead, killed Malfurion's best (human) friend who then vowed to kill her, only to use some mystical item to turn her back into a Night Elf - only for her to turn back into an undead again. Pretty sure that didn't happen. Only thing similar is that the two pairs are attracted to each other - even their endings are different. Malfurion and Tyrande are together and *SPOILER*, Raynor and Kerrigan are not (at least for now, who knows?).
I'm also unsure about saying Amon is similar to Archimonde - it would be more apt to compare him to Sargeras. Both are fallen ,corrupted 'Gods'. Both were from originally what was a benevolent race that was considered the most powerful race in existence. Both of their races came into contact with something that they fought and imprisoned (The Titans fought the Old Gods, the Xel'naga fought the Voice in the Darkness - which on a side note is NOT Amon, look at starcraft wiki for details).
There are some interesting things in the OP's post like how Arthas and Kerrigan do eventually ascend to become the leaders of their 'race' in SC/WC. But otherwise things like mystic artifacts, the fall of emperors, end of time prophecies are all fantasy staples, and things like saying that the stories are eerily similar because of a love story between characters means that SC/WC are similar to almost every fantasy novel written in existence. Which is probably true.
On March 16 2013 23:18 DidYuhim wrote: Where's the part when Raynor consumes Skull of Gul'dan, kills the Dreadlord(I mean, Xel'Naga) and uses the Eye of Dalaran to kill Lich King(Amon) while destroying the world?
Kerrigan reinfests herself at the primal zerg pool, kills Duran and will, in LotV, kill Amon.
I don't mind the stories similarities too much, I am much more concerned about all that magic thats suddenly in it. I mean Kerrigan using Force Lightning as standard attack and a Kamehameha against Duran who is the servant of an old god.... c'mon, this was Sci-fi once.
You missed an important similarity: Sarah Kerrigan and Sylvanas Windrunner.
Both of them are female and started out on the "good" side, but then were forced to join the other side after being defeated in battle. Both were controlled by the master of their new race (Overmind and Burning Legion respectively) but were able to gain their freedom after their masters were weakened or killed.
Then they fought a war to control their new race, Kerrigan battling cerebrates while Windrunner battled Dreadlords.
After successfully winning the war to control their race, they became the Queen of Blades and Queen of the Forsaken, and then fought other races and became the dominant power in their respective area (Lordaeron and the Koprulu Sector).
On March 16 2013 22:25 Rabiator wrote: Not only is the story of SC2 "very similar" to that of WC3, we also have a "hero based campaign" (which does NOT affect the multiplayer) with LOTS of spellcaster units or clickable unit abilities (which does affect the multiplayer).
These two "design styles" are from Warcraft 3 and negatively affect the multiplayer of SC2 because too many clickies makes the game harder to play for casuals and creates a gap between the races. Protoss for example - the race with most clickies - is noticeably harder to play than Zerg, because the units are balanced with these abilities in mind. Terrible design decisions ...
In WC3 the amount of units on the battlefield was VERY VERY SMALL compared to SC2, so the clickies of the units didnt have that much of an effect, but compare that to SC2 where 25 Infestors can easily swarm an enemy army for zero resource cost.
So they tried to make a game which "has it all" and failed to see the problems with that design philosophy. You can never "have it all" without losing something important in the process.
On March 16 2013 22:23 CamoPillbox wrote: I didnt realize but after this i am even more disapointed about blizz lack of fantasy......
I can give a little bit of insight on this lack of imagination. Mike Morhaime is the CEO of Blizzard ... the company which produces the biggest mmoRPG on the planet. Now watch this video and look for his reaction to ROLEPLAYING ...
He has no clue what roleplaying is about and I think it might be the same ignorance going on about a lot of important things in other departments as well. They tried to grab all the good stuff from several franchises to create a "super franchise" ... but they failed IMO.
I don't get it.. your first statement and the first sentence of the 2nd paragraph don't mesh.. in that the hero campaigns and unit abilities don't affect the multiplayer, yet it affects the game negatively?
They do match (they were never intended to mesh ... since you decided to be picky about words I decided to ) since I was talking about "including lots of casters and clickies". The problem with SC2 is CRITICAL mass of units and for certain spellcasters that is terrible ... which results in totally screwed balance OR nerfed casters. For units with clickable abilities you include a skill requirement which makes the game rather bad for casual / low league players of that race (Protoss mostly). Warcraft III had the option to activate autocast for many abilities, but that doesnt work for Blink, Burrow, Stimpack, ...
On March 17 2013 00:35 nanaoei wrote: Honestly, the magic in gaming (i'm looking mostly at nostalgia) is when a particular game has you experience a bunch of new things, and has you remember them. I can see the arguments for why SC2's campaign doesn't quite do it. Let me go on a tangent. Why do you think Starcraft has always been a beloved multiplayer experience? I'd say that it's because the multiplayer allows your fantasy and imagination to take place in the game, and for you to refine your art as you keep trying new things and improving. You're saying that protoss is harder than zerg at the casual level, I agree and disagree. Some players decide they want to throw the art out the window and they just wanna' win, and for those situations we have certain build orders that sink into our minds. We have to be conscious of these builds or we risk losing easily and wasting our time. ..But when you have options all the more glory comes to you when you find something that works and you perform it.
I'd be truly disappointed if there wasn't any one race that had those options.
The problem with games like SC2 is that people like you and the game developers believe that "the sky is the limit". Well it isnt, because there are human limitations which make certain things rather bad for games. In BW you had the 12 unit limit and the stupid movement to "overcome" and that is gone in SC2. The thing is that these "game hardships" create a level playing field for all players of a certain skill level. In SC2 this isnt the case anymore and the REQUIRED MASTERY of a certain ability (Blink and Forcefield for example) create a gap between players of a skill level at the lower end; this only narrows down when you reach a higher level of mastery, but even there the requirements for mastering their units are different. No Zerg really needs to learn Marine-split-micro as much as all Terrans do.
In contrast you could a-move your Marines into an attack without ever being forced to use Stimpack ... just adjust the ratio of Medics to Marines a bit and you dont really need it. That is what I did in my casual games.
Starcraft 2 has LOTS of asymmetric masteries which kinda make the game terrible to balance in multiplayer and these triggered abilities are a prime example. BW never had units like that which were massed as they are in SC2 and that is the problem. Spellcasters are powerful because they can focus their power on one moment in time. If they have any stacking damage dealing or control abilities that is a bad design. Since WC3 never had a critical mass of any unit (due to the hero-centered and food design of the game) they didnt have a problem with every second unit having an activated ability. Balancing wasnt affected by that.
On March 16 2013 23:02 ZenithM wrote: doesn't really do it for me, sorry. I could probably take all your points and do the same thing for Star Wars, LotR and whatever fantasy story you can think of.
Then do so please. I doubt you will pull it off. There is no "all-powerful but evil and corrupting item" in Star Wars, so its not really going to work.
The dark side of the force, bro.
I would *almost* give you that, but there is one crucial difference. The dark side only corrupts / tempts Jedi while the one ring tempts everyone it meets (even the Hobbits). Sure the temptation is "the same", but for Star Wars the whole WAR and ACTION is more important than it is for LotR.
You can be "saved" from the dark side, but you cant be saved from the corruption of Sauron. One is a Hollywood story and the other isnt.
On March 16 2013 21:55 haaz wrote: Hi I played wings of liberty and heart of the swarm campaign. Also I played warcraft 3 reign of chaos and frozen throne campaign and u know what? These stories looks very similar to me.
Let me show you some of those similiarities:
[wc3] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Prophet Medivh [sc2] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Zeratul
[wc3] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Archimonde [sc2] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Amon (dark voice)
[wc3] Lich king Nerzhul is prisoner of Burning Legion (Archimonde) [sc2] Overmind is prisoner of Xel Naga (Amon)
[wc3] Undead forces are only beginning of true invasion of Burning Legion armies [sc2] Zerg forces are only beginning of true invasion of Xel Naga hybrids
[wc3] Nerzhul changes prince Arthas into his undead officer [sc2] Overmind changes Kerrigan into his zerg officer
[wc3] Arthas becomes new lich king at the end [sc2] Kerrigan becomes new overmind at the end
[wc3] There is a outcast guy - Illidan Stormrage [sc2] There is a outcast guy - Zeratul
[wc3] There is a mystic item - Sword Frostmourne [sc2] There is a mystic item - Xel Naga Artifact
[wc3] There is a love plot between Tyrande Whisperwind and Furion Stormrage [sc2] There is a love plot between Sarah Kerrigan and James Raynor
[wc3] There is a fall of current human emperor - Arthas kill his father [sc2] There is a fall of current human emperor - Kerrigan kill Mengsk
So as far as I understand: The end of Legacy of the void will be the big fight as it were in wc3 right?
[wc3] human & night elf & orc vs burning legion & Archimonde [sc2] terran & protoss & zerg vs hybrids & Amon
Maybe there is gonna be a plot of unfulfilled love too?
[wc3] Illidan loves Tyrande but she is already with other guy Furion [sc2] Zeratul loves Selendis? but she is already with other guy Artanis?
What you guys think? What other similiarities u guys see between those two stories? Do you guys think the story is predictable so far?
good health :-D
Wasn't it the Lich King that pulled that one off to get out of his prison?
Nerzhul was the lich king's name.
But yeah, it's hard not to notice the similarities between the storylines. I thought this was nothing new? There have been threads on this before.
On March 16 2013 23:02 ZenithM wrote: doesn't really do it for me, sorry. I could probably take all your points and do the same thing for Star Wars, LotR and whatever fantasy story you can think of.
Then do so please. I doubt you will pull it off. There is no "all-powerful but evil and corrupting item" in Star Wars, so its not really going to work.
The dark side of the force, bro.
I would *almost* give you that, but there is one crucial difference. The dark side only corrupts / tempts Jedi while the one ring tempts everyone it meets (even the Hobbits). Sure the temptation is "the same", but for Star Wars the whole WAR and ACTION is more important than it is for LotR.
You can be "saved" from the dark side, but you cant be saved from the corruption of Sauron. One is a Hollywood story and the other isnt.
Of course it's different in many ways :D Point is, most "similar things" in OP are different from each other as well. You can draw analogies as vague as you want from thin air, basically.
1.Illidan and Zeratul serve different purpose and are not comparable at all. 2.Frostmourne and Xel'Naga artifact are not comparable in any sense. 3.Mal,Tyrande AND Illidan's story are not comparable to love plot between Raynor and Kerrigan at all. 4.Teranas's fall and Mengst's are as different as you can get.
I would say WC3 and SC2 have different story but will reach the same conclusion which is everyone comes together to fight common foe.
Even if you don't like the HotS story, this thread is still really pointless. The points you raise are all incredibly common - you might as well point out that both stories have a beginning or an ending.
An outcast? A mystic item? A love story? You'd have more trouble finding a story without those elements than finding one with them.
This is especially true because the longer and larger a story is, the most likely that the points listed in the OP will occur at some point, even if they are incredibly minor.
I was actually thinking something along these lines while I was playing the HOTS campaign. Seeing as I don't really pay much attention to the story (haven't since WoL), I wouldn't mind if they copied because wc3 had some pretty cool missions game play wise. I think it would be pretty awesome if the last mission in LOTV was like the last mission for wc3.
Yeah I kinda saw the same thing around the SC1 era.
Someone (Arthas, Kerrigan) fights against a seemingly innumerate and not understood enemy (undead, Zerg) and got turned into what they tried to kill (Lich King, Queen of Blades) and drove the story forward for a looooong time with huge consequences and bloodshed to go around.
Actually I feel like Amon = Sargeras. Both are described as fallen/evil higher beings which were sort of creators (titans/Xel'naga), which seems to be taken from the Christian mythology of fallen angels, aka Satan.
On March 17 2013 02:31 IntoTheheart wrote: Yeah I kinda saw the same thing around the SC1 era.
Someone (Arthas, Kerrigan) fights against a seemingly innumerate and not understood enemy (undead, Zerg) and got turned into what they tried to kill (Lich King, Queen of Blades) and drove the story forward for a looooong time with huge consequences and bloodshed to go around.
Yeah, the strongest parallels are with elements that existed already in SC/BW. Which means it's a case of WarCraft3 copying StarCraft, moreso than SC2 copying WC3.
[wc3] There is a outcast guy - Illidan Stormrage [sc2] There is a outcast guy - Zeratul
[wc3] There is a mystic item - Sword Frostmourne [sc2] There is a mystic item - Xel Naga Artifact
[wc3] There is a love plot between Tyrande Whisperwind and Furion Stormrage [sc2] There is a love plot between Sarah Kerrigan and James Raynor
[wc3] There is a fall of current human emperor - Arthas kill his father [sc2] There is a fall of current human emperor - Kerrigan kill Mengsk
These and the ones after the main section are all kind of a stretch, but the rest are pretty spot on. These are standard human things that appear in stories about humans, except for the artifact. For that matter, as others pointed out, the skull of Gul'dan makes more sense.
The key similarity, imo, is that Kerrigan in HotS had a chance to choose her own path, rather than have it forced on her, which is what happened the first time around. She went from being more like Sylvanas to more like Arthas, except that she's not necessarily evil (though revenge isn't exactly a saintly motive).
Kerrigan didn't know if returning to the Zerg would re-create old evil Kerrigan, though it's clear she didn't want that. She didn't know if the primal spawning pool transformation would make her into a monster again, though she'd hoped it wouldn't, after hearing that the Amon essence was cleansed, etc. She gambled that it would be worth it, which in the long run remains to be seen.
A relatively minor parallel is that there's a quest in WoW (WotLK) where you find out Arthas went out of his way to physically remove his heart, lest it be a weakness for the Lich King. It's kind of the inverse of what the Xel'Naga artifact does to Kerrigan.
The similarity with regards to the demons/hybrids has been obvious for a while. Even at the end of the SC:BW secret mission, it seemed a possibility that there would be a team up.
On March 17 2013 02:31 IntoTheheart wrote: Yeah I kinda saw the same thing around the SC1 era.
Someone (Arthas, Kerrigan) fights against a seemingly innumerate and not understood enemy (undead, Zerg) and got turned into what they tried to kill (Lich King, Queen of Blades) and drove the story forward for a looooong time with huge consequences and bloodshed to go around.
Yeah, the strongest parallels are with elements that existed already in SC/BW. Which means it's a case of WarCraft3 copying StarCraft, moreso than SC2 copying WC3.
they even have sort of mini stories of that going on with Sylvanas from wc and + Show Spoiler +
Everyone who knows a bit about literature recognizes basic structures for different kind of genres. You could draw the same analogy easily with and crime-flic or fantasy-flic.
On March 17 2013 03:23 ch4ppi wrote: Im sorry, but this isnt really anything special.
Everyone who knows a bit about literature recognizes basic structures for different kind of genres. You could draw the same analogy easily with and crime-flic or fantasy-flic.
Also some of your comparisions are flawed
How do you say "negative nancy" in German? I don't think anyone is taking this too seriously lol.
On March 17 2013 03:23 ch4ppi wrote: Im sorry, but this isnt really anything special.
Everyone who knows a bit about literature recognizes basic structures for different kind of genres. You could draw the same analogy easily with and crime-flic or fantasy-flic.
Also some of your comparisions are flawed
How do you say "negative nancy" in German? I don't think anyone is taking this too seriously lol.
You'd be surprised...
People love to jump at a chance to bash Metzen/Blizz.
[wc3] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Prophet Medivh [sc2] There is a prophecy of end of the world by Zeratul [Zelda] There is a prophecy of the beginning of the world by Goddesses [FF8] There is a prophecy of the end of the world by Ultimecia [Poke B/W] There is a prophecy about the heroes of truth and ideals
[wc3] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Archimonde [sc2] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Amon (dark voice) [Zelda] There is a guy who wants to destroy everything - Ganon [FF8] There is a girl who wants to destroy everything - Ultimecia [Poke B/W] There is a guy who wants to destroy links between humans and pokemon (and yes, that is considered everything in this universe) - Ghetsis
[wc3] Lich king Nerzhul is prisoner of Burning Legion (Archimonde) [sc2] Overmind is prisoner of Xel Naga (Amon) [Zelda] Zelda is a prisoner of Ganon [FF8] Galbadia is a prisoner of Ultimecia [Poke B/W] N is a prisoner of Ghetsis
[wc3] Undead forces are only beginning of true invasion of Burning Legion armies [sc2] Zerg forces are only beginning of true invasion of Xel Naga hybrids [Zelda] Ganon presence is only beginning of true goal for Triforce [FF8] Edea presence is only beginning of true attack by Ultimecia [Poke B/W] Zekrom vs Reshiram is only the beginning of the true plan of using Kyurem (I'm totally not stretching it here)
[wc3] Nerzhul changes prince Arthas into his undead officer [sc2] Overmind changes Kerrigan into his zerg officer [Zelda] Master sword changes link into hero [FF8] Ultimecia changes Edea into Puppet Sorceress [Poke B/W] Ghetsis changes Zinzolin into a competent.... nah, Zinzolin still sucks
[wc3] Arthas becomes new lich king at the end [sc2] Kerrigan becomes new overmind at the end [Zelda] Zelda Link and Ganon all represent a part of the triforce at the end [FF8] Rinoa becomes new sorceress near the end [Poke B/W] Main becomes champion at the end
[wc3] There is a outcast guy - Illidan Stormrage [sc2] There is a outcast guy - Zeratul [Zelda] There is a outcast guy - Skullkid [FF8] There is a outcast guy - Squall [Poke B/W] There is a Plasma outcast - Rood
[wc3] There is a mystic item - Sword Frostmourne [sc2] There is a mystic item - Xel Naga Artifact [Zelda] There is a mystic item - Triforce, Master Sword, Ocarina [FF8] There is a mystic item - Gardens, GFs [Poke B/W] There is a mystic item - the thing that controlled Kyurem
[wc3] There is a love plot between Tyrande Whisperwind and Furion Stormrage [sc2] There is a love plot between Sarah Kerrigan and James Raynor [Zelda] There is a love plot between Zelda and Link [FF8] There is a love plot between Rinoa and Squall [Poke B/W] There is a love plot between Ditto and everyone
[wc3] There is a fall of current human emperor - Arthas kill his father [sc2] There is a fall of current human emperor - Kerrigan kill Mengsk [Zelda] There is a fall of current human king - King of Hyrule [FF8] Theres ia fall of a current human ruler - President Vinzer Deling [Poke B/W] There is a fall of a current champion - Iris
The fact, that Blizzard ruined the SC universe with terrible, terrible writing throughout WoL & HotS just makes me sick. Another great potential for incredible epicness just wasted. Shame on you Blizzard, shame on you.
On March 17 2013 03:23 ch4ppi wrote: Im sorry, but this isnt really anything special.
Everyone who knows a bit about literature recognizes basic structures for different kind of genres. You could draw the same analogy easily with and crime-flic or fantasy-flic.
Also some of your comparisions are flawed
How do you say "negative nancy" in German? I don't think anyone is taking this too seriously lol.
haha Actually looked up the meaning, but I cant find any fitting german expression
I think there are quiet a bunch of people that take this seriously and take the OPs post as a basis to criticise a good written story, because he broke it down really simple. Not that anyone would really read my post, but Im glad that you responded and know what Im talking about.
On March 17 2013 03:23 ch4ppi wrote: Im sorry, but this isnt really anything special.
Everyone who knows a bit about literature recognizes basic structures for different kind of genres. You could draw the same analogy easily with and crime-flic or fantasy-flic.
Also some of your comparisions are flawed
How do you say "negative nancy" in German?
Denkohlekellernichtvollsondernschwarzseher.
Loosely translates into: "you can't see how full your basement dedicated to coals is full of coals, all you see is the black color which saddens and frightens you". Some expressions take minutes to say in German.
Like, instead of finding the needle in a haystack, you will find the:
"Köstlicher Nougatbrocken in eine Teich voll grauem Grießschleim mit Rosinen." (delicious nugget of nougat in a pool of gray semolina slime with raisins)
On March 17 2013 03:33 jment wrote: The fact, that Blizzard ruined the SC universe with terrible, terrible writing throughout WoL & HotS just makes me sick. Another great potential for incredible epicness just wasted. Shame on you Blizzard, shame on you.
Just a great example of someone having no idea about literature and falling to the "obviously" bad written story that just copys WC3 plot ....
Actually, the next big plot twist will be that the Warcraft and Starcraft universes are one and the same. Just a few retcons and it'll work fine!
In LotV, the protoss will be corrupted by Amon, also known to some as Sargeras. Zeratul, who is masquerading as a templar called Velen, manages to save a bunch of them, though they are transformed to Draenei in the process. They escape from Argus (Shakuras) to Draenor, where they live peacefully for a while but are eventually besieged by demons and orcs. Draenor is ruined and taken over by Illidan's forces. The survivors teleport and crashland on Azeroth, and the circle of retconning is complete.
I dont know man. Every character in Wc3 is just so iconic, from Thrall, Arthas, Illidan to someone like Tyrande, Maiev, Furion etc. Meanwhile SC story just doesnt make sense to me, especially Sc2. Maybe we had had so much of better space tales that this "orc in space" concept just doesnt work out
problem with sc2 plot. wc3 was pretty good, since there's no 100% good guys (like raynor), love story wasnt so poor, and side characters was good and explained (sylvanas, dat nerubian guy, 2 vampires etc) so wc3 was good, sc2 is just poorly copypasted wc3, but this doesnt makes it good too. im talking about story and campaign, not the gameplay etc
Not only is the story of SC2 "very similar" to that of WC3, we also have a "hero based campaign" (which does NOT affect the multiplayer) with LOTS of spellcaster units or clickable unit abilities (which does affect the multiplayer).
These two "design styles" are from Warcraft 3 and negatively affect the multiplayer of SC2 because too many clickies makes the game harder to play for casuals and creates a gap between the races. Protoss for example - the race with most clickies - is noticeably harder to play than Zerg, because the units are balanced with these abilities in mind. Terrible design decisions ...
In WC3 the amount of units on the battlefield was VERY VERY SMALL compared to SC2, so the clickies of the units didnt have that much of an effect, but compare that to SC2 where 25 Infestors can easily swarm an enemy army for zero resource cost.
So they tried to make a game which "has it all" and failed to see the problems with that design philosophy. You can never "have it all" without losing something important in the process.
On March 16 2013 22:23 CamoPillbox wrote: I didnt realize but after this i am even more disapointed about blizz lack of fantasy......
I can give a little bit of insight on this lack of imagination. Mike Morhaime is the CEO of Blizzard ... the company which produces the biggest mmoRPG on the planet. Now watch this video and look for his reaction to ROLEPLAYING ...
He has no clue what roleplaying is about and I think it might be the same ignorance going on about a lot of important things in other departments as well. They tried to grab all the good stuff from several franchises to create a "super franchise" ... but they failed IMO.
I don't get it.. your first statement and the first sentence of the 2nd paragraph don't mesh.. in that the hero campaigns and unit abilities don't affect the multiplayer, yet it affects the game negatively?
They do match (they were never intended to mesh ... since you decided to be picky about words I decided to ) since I was talking about "including lots of casters and clickies". The problem with SC2 is CRITICAL mass of units and for certain spellcasters that is terrible ... which results in totally screwed balance OR nerfed casters. For units with clickable abilities you include a skill requirement which makes the game rather bad for casual / low league players of that race (Protoss mostly). Warcraft III had the option to activate autocast for many abilities, but that doesnt work for Blink, Burrow, Stimpack, ...
On March 17 2013 00:35 nanaoei wrote: Honestly, the magic in gaming (i'm looking mostly at nostalgia) is when a particular game has you experience a bunch of new things, and has you remember them. I can see the arguments for why SC2's campaign doesn't quite do it. Let me go on a tangent. Why do you think Starcraft has always been a beloved multiplayer experience? I'd say that it's because the multiplayer allows your fantasy and imagination to take place in the game, and for you to refine your art as you keep trying new things and improving. You're saying that protoss is harder than zerg at the casual level, I agree and disagree. Some players decide they want to throw the art out the window and they just wanna' win, and for those situations we have certain build orders that sink into our minds. We have to be conscious of these builds or we risk losing easily and wasting our time. ..But when you have options all the more glory comes to you when you find something that works and you perform it.
I'd be truly disappointed if there wasn't any one race that had those options.
The problem with games like SC2 is that people like you and the game developers believe that "the sky is the limit". Well it isnt, because there are human limitations which make certain things rather bad for games. In BW you had the 12 unit limit and the stupid movement to "overcome" and that is gone in SC2. The thing is that these "game hardships" create a level playing field for all players of a certain skill level. In SC2 this isnt the case anymore and the REQUIRED MASTERY of a certain ability (Blink and Forcefield for example) create a gap between players of a skill level at the lower end; this only narrows down when you reach a higher level of mastery, but even there the requirements for mastering their units are different. No Zerg really needs to learn Marine-split-micro as much as all Terrans do.
In contrast you could a-move your Marines into an attack without ever being forced to use Stimpack ... just adjust the ratio of Medics to Marines a bit and you dont really need it. That is what I did in my casual games.
Starcraft 2 has LOTS of asymmetric masteries which kinda make the game terrible to balance in multiplayer and these triggered abilities are a prime example. BW never had units like that which were massed as they are in SC2 and that is the problem. Spellcasters are powerful because they can focus their power on one moment in time. If they have any stacking damage dealing or control abilities that is a bad design. Since WC3 never had a critical mass of any unit (due to the hero-centered and food design of the game) they didnt have a problem with every second unit having an activated ability. Balancing wasnt affected by that.
i understand the difficulty of using words (as i have a hard time articulating myself), but i wasn't trying to be picky over yours. you are making broad statements about the game over its design IMO.
to make it clear, i'm not going to address most of what you said very properly.
you do not generally need abilities to autocast, or to be made easier to make it any more balanced for any race in an RTS. i'll simply take broodwar as an example (neither autocast or easy to use abilities). i don't know if you played way back in the day, but the consensus between my naive friends and i was that terran was the most difficult race to play well due to the lack of units with abilities early on. the same argument can be made for both zerg and protoss at different points in game where tech looked more or less appealing. though, the main reason why it was hard for us was the lack of good mechanics (also completely arguable for all 3 races, rather than with just terran) which resulted in lots of cheese with varying levels of success.... rather, it wasn't a lack of units with abilities early in the game, it was the player's inability to make those units, or making any reliable amount of units at all. i'm talking about macro-ing out of 1 base, 3 barracks and constantly producing while controlling what, marines? medics? yes, those are casual games, but there's a limit to how casual you can remain while looking for an even-match of an opponent---and yes, those were the woes of having to select each individual barracks to produce one unit every 24 seconds, then rallying them individually to one point. my point is that it's not all down to units and their abilities; it's being able to use each and every one of your units to their full ability.. this includes your standard 1-a units.
"BW never had units like that which were massed as they are in SC2."
yeah we made mass spellcasters in BW, they were hella strong LOL because of pathing, ui, game mechanics, they were even stronger at points (high templar, dark archons, science vessels, queens, arbiters, and lets face it... everyone has made mass BC's just to cast yamato cannon.) if balance design were the case you could make a modern chess game where everyone plays 1 race with the same units. that's almost completely balanced isn't it? but is it good game design
..autocast stimpack... really..? T_T;;
so why would you ever say starcraft:brood war was a great multiplayer experience for you or your friends? because it was balanced and the game design was perfect? because of the magic of a game that captured us with its original storyline at the time? or was it in part because the game's strategies were evolving to this day despite the balance patches coming to a halt in 2001? it is now 2013, but i believe starcraft:BW is still moving and changing, which makes me believe that sky is the limit when it comes to gaming (lets get progamers for truck simulator pls). this does not change the fact that SC2 does not capture you or many others, nor does it change the fact that it captures myself and a growing population of gamers.
tldr; i think sc2 rides on its own quite fine. i enjoyed the campaign because i enjoy a fresh and fun entry into the series rather than letting it end with a game that was made 13+ years ago. i dont know if you noticed, but gamer rage happens just the same as it did years ago over any game. you wouldn't believe how angry i was at tanks and spider mines as protoss until i first watched pro-games and found [oops]reach loading zealots into shuttles for bombing.
and yeah i think automining/autorally is pretty bullshit, lol but you can only cater so much to casual gaming before you start to hurt all of the players interested in the game.
EPT
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