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On March 16 2013 15:26 Zinthar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 06:25 peidongyang wrote:
I'm calling bs on the gm three races thing
That means he is performing at a similar if not higher level than thorzain, sase and a lesser tier Korean pro Zerg at their respective races? Yeah bullshit. It's not necessarily BS -- there are occasionally GM players who play Random that pop up. Aside from this one former Code A Korean whose name escapes me at the moment (I believe he was a Terran in GSL/GSTL though), but then switched to random and , they're generally not at the same level as the mid-tier pros that you named, but it's certainly possible to play at least at GM level with all 3 collectively, at least outside of Korea.
You're talking about gumiho, he was originally random. Also there was guineapig who started as toss then changed to random for GSTL.
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medivac are fine , that just bad players lossing vs them , the game out since not many time , so protoss and zerg , LEARN THE GAME and how to counter them , pro gamer are starting to counter them just fine .
and the mine totaly fine , again that just because protoss and zerg are terrible , they should just use overlord and obs for see them , they are some trick with burrow for get almost no dmg too , and some way for send only 1-2 zerling and take zero dmg .....but that to much to ask im thinking , only terran player figure stuft out for counter unit and stuft in this game....
while zerg and protoss whine for get it nerfed .
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On March 18 2013 03:01 quebecman77 wrote:
medivac are fine , that just bad players lossing vs them , the game out since not many time , so protoss and zerg , LEARN THE GAME and how to counter them , pro gamer are starting to counter them just fine .
and the mine totaly fine , again that just because protoss and zerg are terrible , they should just use overlord and obs for see them , they are some trick with burrow for get almost no dmg too , and some way for send only 1-2 zerling and take zero dmg .....but that to much to ask im thinking , only terran player figure stuft out for counter unit and stuft in this game....
while zerg and protoss whine for get it nerfed .
You are just terrible at this game that's why you want an advantage - how about that theory?
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Freeborn you sir are totally right, Terran players thinks the game is fine now when they got a unit that does 125+30 armored dmg. How about giving such high damage unit to Z and P so everyone will have one, what do you think will happen then? "herpderp, i am supposted to be able to win with no skill heeeerrpppdeeeeeeerp /Terran"
Step 1: Factory
Step 2: Widow mine
Step 3: Burrow
Step 4: Step 3
That build order is really awesome, go and try it.
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The risk by not nerving extremly strong stuff is that the amount of possible tech path gets reduced. For example: Strong mutas in PvZ could force out stargate openings from protoss. The game would still be balanced, but the variety in the gamepay would be diminished.
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On March 17 2013 19:29 Goldfish wrote:Show nested quote +On March 17 2013 02:17 Cofo wrote:On March 17 2013 01:14 Breach_hu wrote:On March 17 2013 00:21 Cofo wrote:On March 16 2013 16:29 MannerMule wrote:
If they nerf the widow mines blast radius why don't they allow the player to micro the widow mine attack I think this is a great idea. Either the ability to pick a target, or even better - hold fire/stop lurker capability. It would make them useful in more situations and more fun to watch, but balanced out by nerfed AoE and/or damage. You can do that already. Which, target fire or hold fire? Or both? Sorry, I haven't gotten a chance to play with mines much yet, I thought I read that you couldn't. When a unit comes in range of the Widow Mine, there is about a second delay before it actually attacks. During this time, you can select the Widow Mine, and (with it still selected) right click on a unit. The Widow Mine will attack the targeted unit (if it's it was in its attack range when you clicked on the unit). To keep the Widow Mine from attacking, keep telling the Widow Mine to switch targets (though this requires a lot of clicks and requires at least two units). They could give the Widow Mine the "Hold Fire" and "Weapons Free" abilities from the Ghost (which prevents auto attacking; or something similar since Widow Mine's ability is technically a spell).
It's not reliable at all with literally a second delay, and there is no smartfiring when you manually target so they will overkill. Target firing a single mine on a single unit is almost never worth the effort.
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Let's take a look at MLG's terrans:
- Polt: kills creator (upset?), dies vs life (korean)
- Last: kills stephano (foreigner), kills killer (foreigner), dies vs life (korean)
- Mvp: kills feast (foreigner), dies to mc (korean)
- Taeja: kills sase (foreigner), dies to bomber (terran)
- Bomber: kills goswser (foreigner), kills taeja (terran), dies to mc (korean)
- Flash aka GOD: kills bly (foreigner), kills ret (foreigner), kills parting (upset?), kills innovation (terran)
- MKP: dies to jakji (korean)
- Jakji: kills MKP (terran), dies to rain (korean)
- Innovation: kills huk (foreigner), kills leenock (upset?), kills rain (upset?), dies to flash (terran)
So basicly, you guys say terran is OP, based on:
- Polt killing creator
- flash killing parting
- innovation killing leenock & rain
What about flash & innovation being gods and deserving their wins? Then there is left: polt vs creator. Let's nerf terran based on that bo3?!
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Good work snowbear. People need to actually check the figures before going with their gut.
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I think it's funny for the call to buff oracle. I mean I've played like 5 HotS games and haven't even seen an oracle used or used it myself (I play random) but MC seemed to be able to stomp MVP and Bomber pretty easily. I saw Lucifron lose to proxy stargate -> Oracle twice at the Versailles HotS launch party vs WhiteRa. MC went like 9-2 with oracles at MLG even though terrans were tearing the place up.
One thing is for sure, putting up static anti air vs protoss is basically going to become a foregone conclusion, especially with buffs to DT openings and skytoss.
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for those of you surprised at david kim's apperent skill level, he was hired as a balance tester for blizzard, and before that was a very high level scbw player.
so you figure, a very high level bw player, who was hired specifically for game balance design, would happen to know what the best unit compositions for every situation is, since he is the main guy who designed the balance in the first place.
so if you had actually designed the game, and knew every statistic about the game, and on top of that already had a very good fundimental starcraft macro, i can see how he would be so good.
side note, those beta replays that blizzard released, the terran player was david kim, using the name 'dakim' in game.
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On March 15 2013 16:35 SolidMoose wrote:
My problem with reducing the splash on the widow mine is it's reducing the only reason it should be made. If a widow mine ever hits a single target, it's really not being cost effective in terms of dps (125/40) = 3.125. Even against protoss it's still only 4. That is a pathetic amount of dps. Reducing it's range to 4.5 to help stalkers deal with them easier is a much better solution.
And ultra charge better not happen, ultras are already borderline too good (unless they nerfed the damage again + charge).
Everything else seems reasonable.
That makes no sense to measure widow mine dps like that. How about this, I have a unit that can only attack once per game, ONLY ONCE. Of course it one shots all the units and buildings of the opponent. In a 16 hour game the DPS would be pretty low wouldn't it?
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 15 2013 16:35 DemigodcelpH wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 16:24 ALPINA wrote:On March 15 2013 13:37 avilo wrote:
If widow mine is "too powerful" i'm assuming that he understand the current blinding cloud radius is "too powerful" as well correct?
Tested it in the unit tester today after some "strange" games, 4 vipers using 6 blinding clouds shut down roughly15+ siege tanks that were pre-spread in a 99% optimal fashion.
Something is wrong here.
A balance designer cannot only look at one race...the widow mine is one of the few balancing factors right now against the insane blinding cloud radius vs mech.
We all can only assume that if they are "looking at the widow mine" then they will not let their own bias disallow them from also "looking at the blinding cloud radius" as well...correct?
We would hope so.
Ultras also currently seem to be "overperforming."
In the original post of this thread, why is there no mention/analysis of any Zerg units "being too powerful" whatsoever? I am confused. Should there not be "looking at" all 3 of the races? It seems one has been mysteriously left out of the equation here.
Hmm.
Just food for thought. Right now in the community, the largest majority of whining is coming from prominent Zerg streamers. It is not unjustified, but I am going to point out here that what these Zerg players are complaining about is not an actual balance issue with the game, but a learning curve related to a new game in relation to Zerg being the most reactive race.
When Zerg players right now are complaining about being underpowered, they are not understanding the game and the basis of their own complaint - what they are really complaining about is that at the start of this new game it is difficult to read and react to the new variety of things that Protoss and Terran can do to them due to the differences in worker production and the larva mechanic.
This is a learning curve issue - NOT A BALANCE ISSUE. Get it straight everyone in this thread and community. We do not want a repeat of wings where one race is overbuffed.
Zerg is the most reactive race. Everyone knows this. If you do not know the perfect amount of drones to make, or what you can get away with you will die to new things. This is the root of what Zerg players REALLY MEAN when they complain that they are currently "underpowered." The truth is they are not.
As the game is more figured out, and Zergs realize what to do with their larva better vs certain openings and situations...Zerg is just as powerful as the other two races.
I write this because right now it's a "Zerg QQ fest" and the developers seem to be being influenced by it quite a bit to the point, i'll say it again, they completely leave out any criticism balance wise of the viper in the OP of this post or anything of Zerg's possibly being "too strong."
Sorry for the long post. Just had to clarify because Zerg right now is in fact no where near underpowered, and Zerg players do not seem to understand that they are not complaining about balance, but about Zerg being the most reactive race and in fact as the game is figured out more they will be perfectly fine, and more.
Zerg is reactive race yes, but widow mines are not the units to which you can react. They are universally good vs. everything, and you don't have real counter to them. Not to mention probably most cost efficient unit in the game as it stands now. The major drawback of the Widow Mine is that it's a non-fighter unit that is stationary, therefore it has to be "cost effective" or it would not be worth it. The Widow Mine being cost effective is the equivalent of a full-time fighting unit being even, because you're paying the hidden tax of 2 supply per mine being taken away from army potential when the shot is down along with the requirement of being immobile while firing. This is why, to the untrained thinker, you might see a Window Mine kill two stalkers and conclude that it was "cost effective", but the threshold of efficiency for a unit with situational fighting opportunities but a constant supply cost is higher than simply surpassing resource cost on paper. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_costConsider thinking more critically when you make comments about unit balance. Show nested quote +On March 15 2013 16:31 BakedButters wrote:
Lol Akusta is so retarted, "a congress of professional players to balance the game".
That would be worse than the typical liberals vs. conservatives that can't get anything done in Congress.
Pros are all biased towards their own race, since it's their pay/livelihood on the line. When u see streams of pros and someone discusses balance, they rarely if ever will talk bad about their own race. Ex: Grubby today disagreed that Protoss air is op. Demsulim didn't agree that med boost was op.
If they had a vote on let's say a buff to a zerg unit, the representatives from the other two races would veto that buff. On the other hand, if their was a vote for a neft on void rays, the reps from the other races would vote yes. Nothing would get accomplished.
You need someone that is neutral to all parties, and that doesn't have their way of living depend on the balance of their own race This is also false. First of all "pros are biased toward their own face" is a blanket statement that is false, as being a pro does not limit objective thinking nor does single incidents constitute the whole, and secondly if a professional gamer is hired into a position of game design then incentive to not be objective (if a particular pro was in fact biased) is gone by incentive to not lose his new job. That's like telling a person with social anxiety issues to avoid going to therapy because he might get scared.
I disagree with your opportunity cost argument completely. It seems to me that widow mines often get plenty of chances to do damage, and are always outrageously cost effective. How many pro games have we seen where they take out a 300 resource oracle? 23 zerglings and banelings? 175 resource Stalkers? 200 resource Mutas?
By your argument, you would say that cannons and turrets should be zero cost free because they can't even one shot anything and are 100% static.
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On March 15 2013 06:05 Seiniyta wrote:
Grandmaster with all 3 races? Pretty awesome.
This, even if its low GM, major respect ++ for actually actively playing with all three races.
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On March 18 2013 08:01 Snowbear wrote:
Let's take a look at MLG's terrans:
- Polt: kills creator (upset?), dies vs life (korean)
- Last: kills stephano (foreigner), kills killer (foreigner), dies vs life (korean)
- Mvp: kills feast (foreigner), dies to mc (korean)
- Taeja: kills sase (foreigner), dies to bomber (terran)
- Bomber: kills goswser (foreigner), kills taeja (terran), dies to mc (korean)
- Flash aka GOD: kills bly (foreigner), kills ret (foreigner), kills parting (upset?), kills innovation (terran)
- MKP: dies to jakji (korean)
- Jakji: kills MKP (terran), dies to rain (korean)
- Innovation: kills huk (foreigner), kills leenock (upset?), kills rain (upset?), dies to flash (terran)
So basicly, you guys say terran is OP, based on:
- Polt killing creator
- flash killing parting
- innovation killing leenock & rain
What about flash & innovation being gods and deserving their wins? Then there is left: polt vs creator. Let's nerf terran based on that bo3?!
polt vs creator wasn't an upset, polt just smacked creator 1-2 weeks before 5-1 iirc and he had a winning record vs him in wol as well
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Im not sure if this has been said before.
But instead of making burrow charge auto target a unit, the charge should be like a spell where u press it, then the ultralisk charge underground a certain distance in a straight line and then auto attacks whatever units are within its vicinity, and if no units are there (or your opponenets splits well and quickly!) you do nothing.
I'm always more up for units that require control more so then automated control. Higher skill ceiling, funner to watch. Can do interesting things like have 1 ultralisk charge as a decoy to make them dodge in one direction, and then engage the army when its moving in a predictable pattern.
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On March 15 2013 06:06 Rescawen wrote:
Gm with all 3 races on kr ladder, maybe he is underrated after all. Except the maps are still bad. Thia interview makes me have faith !
He knows more about the game than anyone on the planet, I assure you of this. If you were to play him on the ladder, he could recognize anything you're doing and he will know exactly how to kill it without you having any chance whatsoever :D. If you beat him it's only because he let you win.
If he makes any balance changes it's only because he is seeing players aren't coping with whatever it is that is in question of being nerfed, not that it is actually uncounterable.
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I feel like Kim is capable but I think that he should hire 3 ex pros for each race to help him out. I do think sc2 hots is pretty balanced but I expect to see some changes maybe after ro32 gsl.
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HoTS is ballanced - IMO there is no need to nerf anything. There are place only for buffs - for example a slight hydra buff.
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Nerfing the radius of WMs won't change a thing against workers, since every medivac can carry 4 of them. Imho, one way for WMs to be balanced is to be visible after detonation for a couple of seconds. And they should not be able to get into medivacs at all.
As for charged ultras, we will see them as workers on April's 1st of 2014.
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Being able to pick up burrowed mines is kinda silly too. I mean, you can't pick up deployed siege tanks, and it's the same idea.
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EPT
