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On February 21 2013 18:39 paralleluniverse wrote:
Ever wonder why there are so many UI inconsistencies, e.g. why the dialog box to confirm deleting a replay is completely different in style to the dialog box for removing a friend? Or why the right-click menu in the custom games list is clearly different in style to the right-click menu on the replay page? Or why the lists on these pages have completely different styles?
I believe I've figured it out. It's because the tools they've used to make SC2 do not have standardized UI templates. It seems that they can't click a button that opens a template for a generic-right click menu. Instead, they manually design a right-click menu each time it's needed, thus leading to inconsistencies.
This appears to be the only way to explain why there are differences in the right-click menus in the custom game and replay pages, i.e. in the latter the borders are tight, in the other it's not, and in the latter the text is not bold, in the other it is. And there are many other examples.
oh that's an interesting thought. Also I have your thread linked in the OP if you missed it.
To everyone thinking that I'm unequivocally hating on Blizzard and hate their UI, that is not my intent at all. My post hoped to offer some rather detailed constructive criticism on the new UI which should not be taken as a "this fucking sucks, fix it." The 2.0.4 UI is a big step in the right direction (I subtly said so in the OP), but just because it's a large improvement, doesn't mean that its free of flaws or shortcomings. In order for progress to happen when we want it to we must be looking critically at things.
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So much nitpicking, I think the UI is fine. And who is even going to bother using all those hotkeys anyways? No one cares about Menu APM sorry to say.
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I don't really understand why you're calling universal keyboard navigation "contextual".
It's practically the opposite.
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On February 21 2013 21:56 Cheerio wrote:
this is one of the most useless well written threads on TL
Agreed in everyway. This is like a full blow review of the Dead Space 3 menus or the UI for Streefighter 4. Shakespeare wrote a play about this, “Much ado about Nothing”.
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On February 21 2013 19:19 Prillan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 11:19 MaxQT wrote:On February 21 2013 05:04 wo1fwood wrote:
[list][*]In the profile 'settings cog', the "copy link" option is not clear as to what it intends to impart to the end user. This is seen in a few other places, but this option copies your profile link, though I am unsure as to what it's is used for (seems client oriented in that the output of starcraft://profile/#/############## doesn't follow standard url link structuring).
You don't understanding something doesn't make something a bug, or an incosistency. It's clear that a profile link is something that is used to link to your profile. And how do you open a link? You put it into the navigation bar in any web-browser or the folder navigation bar in windows. SAME AS EVERY OTHER LINK! It's use is fairly simple. For example; i want to show some profile to a TL member. I don't know the profile character number, and i added him from my match history. I just give him the profile link, and BAM, he can access his profile. Also, about standard url link structuring: What the hell? a normal url for a profile page would be along the lines of: http://www.forum.net/member/xwhere x is the userid or the username (depending on forum software or SEO) is there any difference betwen that and: starcraft://profile/#/xwhere x is the userid I don't see any. Of course the protocol is starcraft (starcraft://), since it launches for sc2 client. Calm down  You are correct, but no need to sound that way. The starcraft-URL does follow the standard. Presumably it opens the SC2 client and navigates to the profile if clicked. A lot of programs use URLs like this. On top of my head: magnet: - Opens a bittorrent program and starts downloading the specified torrent
spotify: - Opens the specified playlist/album/artist/song in the spotify client
xfire: - Used to join servers in games
Yeah, sorry, maybe i sounded a bit too rude in that post
I just find it strange to always blame blizzard for every single feature they add to the game, i mean, they worked really hard for this patch and we are never happy!
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On February 21 2013 21:45 fr0d0b0ls0n wrote:
I was about to read this, but scrolling I saw that joke about the dice, and someone that doesn't know what perspective is has no moral right to criticize anything. That alone tells the story about the extreme absurd nitpicking from the author. I hope someone makes a post about real UI problems...
I was really hoping this was going to be a comprehensive critique of the UI, similar to what was done (by OP or somebody else?) to the original battle.net UI.
While some points OP makes are good (keyboard nav would be sweet, consistency is obviously desirable,) the points he is wrong about are so cringe-worthy that it undermines the whole piece. The dice was obviously a big one, but not recognizing two point perspective (which is more realistic than isometric, not less,) wasn't the worst part; it was complaining that an icon was "redundant" by being both a dice and having a question mark.
An icon is supposed to represent a single idea, and both the question mark and the dice point to that idea. The purpose of an icon is to beat you over the head with an idea so it is patently obvious at first glance- it is nearly impossible to be too "redundant." Even if it were, the dice is not. It conveys the idea perfectly.
I also disagree about the race icons being worse than the old, "colored" ones. The old icons look childish next to the new ones.
Finally, the last points, about clicking a production tab, and "stealing" YABOT... you have to be kidding me. Both of these things are amazing.
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On February 21 2013 22:07 yyfpulls wrote:
So much nitpicking, I think the UI is fine. And who is even going to bother using all those hotkeys anyways? No one cares about Menu APM sorry to say.
Then you never played WC3. For us Warcraft players, we were in heaven and we didn't even know it. How do you take so many steps backwards from a game released in 2002?
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On February 22 2013 00:04 MaxQT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 19:19 Prillan wrote:On February 21 2013 11:19 MaxQT wrote:On February 21 2013 05:04 wo1fwood wrote:
[list][*]In the profile 'settings cog', the "copy link" option is not clear as to what it intends to impart to the end user. This is seen in a few other places, but this option copies your profile link, though I am unsure as to what it's is used for (seems client oriented in that the output of starcraft://profile/#/############## doesn't follow standard url link structuring).
You don't understanding something doesn't make something a bug, or an incosistency. It's clear that a profile link is something that is used to link to your profile. And how do you open a link? You put it into the navigation bar in any web-browser or the folder navigation bar in windows. SAME AS EVERY OTHER LINK! It's use is fairly simple. For example; i want to show some profile to a TL member. I don't know the profile character number, and i added him from my match history. I just give him the profile link, and BAM, he can access his profile. Also, about standard url link structuring: What the hell? a normal url for a profile page would be along the lines of: http://www.forum.net/member/xwhere x is the userid or the username (depending on forum software or SEO) is there any difference betwen that and: starcraft://profile/#/xwhere x is the userid I don't see any. Of course the protocol is starcraft (starcraft://), since it launches for sc2 client. Calm down You are correct, but no need to sound that way. The starcraft-URL does follow the standard. Presumably it opens the SC2 client and navigates to the profile if clicked. A lot of programs use URLs like this. On top of my head: magnet: - Opens a bittorrent program and starts downloading the specified torrent
spotify: - Opens the specified playlist/album/artist/song in the spotify client
xfire: - Used to join servers in games Yeah, sorry, maybe i sounded a bit too rude in that post I just find it strange to always blame blizzard for every single feature they add to the game, i mean, they worked really hard for this patch and we are never happy!
But people are(or at least appear to be) happy with the update to the UI. If you look at the response to the update in any forum or post about it, people are overwhelmingly positive when it is first announced. However, since both Blizzard and TL are world wide sites, at some point someone posts their displeasure with the changes. Then other people who are displeased latch onto that post and continue the thread in that vain and discuss why their do not like the changes. People argue with these posters and support the changes and the thread continues. But if you think about, out of all the people that enjoy SC2.
Think of the internet as Yelp reviews. If you read a one star yelp review, you will often find one say stuff like “loved the food, but got a parking ticket”, others are well written but have little to do with the food. But all you care about is the food. Just because someone took the time to post something on the internet does not mean that it is true or is how everyone else feels. And just because they are able to connect with other people in the world with the same idea does not mean that they are the majority. Even if a thread is thousands of posts, that does not mean it is important. Because a post can be done in 10 minutes on my commute to work, or on in the bathroom, where I have nothing else to do and I am killing time.
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On February 22 2013 01:02 ssg wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 22:07 yyfpulls wrote:
So much nitpicking, I think the UI is fine. And who is even going to bother using all those hotkeys anyways? No one cares about Menu APM sorry to say. Then you never played WC3. For us Warcraft players, we were in heaven and we didn't even know it. How do you take so many steps backwards from a game released in 2002?
It's funny that you mention it cauz most bw players HATED that wc3's interface. Now we're getting wc3 players hating on sc2's interface.
Guess we don't like change maybe ? Or maybe it takes time before getting used to it.
I still prefer the sc/bw interface though.
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Definitely the best pointless thread on TL atm. The new UI is actually a lot better than the trash they had before, and the only nitpicking I care about is the victory music, which is just silly.
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I know this wasn't even close to the point of the whole thing, but I liked the mention of The Lost Vikings and Rock and Roll Racing. I forgot about those; they were some pretty awesome old Blizzard games. There are even Lost Vikings references in SCII (and almost every other Blizzard game, they really seem proud of that one) if you look hard enough.
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I read the first part about hotkeys, but I really don't see the need...
SC2 is a computer RTS game you play with mainly your mouse, not fucking emacs. What would a mouseless navigation through the menus bring? You'll have to use your mouse at some point anyway, might as well practice your mouse accuracy and speed by clicking on the menu items or something.
You want to eat and/or jack off while firing up a ladder game? Well, use your other hand to do that (you know, the keyboard hand, because the navigation is currently keyboardless, this is what you're getting at). You find using your mouse not convenient, not as fast, or tiring? Well you might want to stop playing this game then.
Although I gotta admit, this is the best formatted and researched post on a pointless and irrelevant topic I've seen in a long time.
On February 22 2013 01:42 maartendq wrote:
I sometimes believe I'm the only one here who has never had a problem with B.net 2.0's interface from the beginning. It perfectly allowed me to do what I wanted it to do: play starcraft 2 and chat with friends.
Haha so much this. Never bothered me in the slightest.
I think people who want to have a clan or play many custom games have some legit concerns, which might be addressed with the Arcade and Bnet 2.0.4/HotS.
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I sometimes believe I'm the only one here who has never had a problem with B.net 2.0's interface from the beginning. It perfectly allowed me to do what I wanted it to do: play starcraft 2 and chat with friends.
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I hope you can submit all of these to Blizzard.
You're doing a great job at this.
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A command-line interface would bring faster and cleaner navigation (perhaps not when looking for custom maps, but still, a Linux-like <tab> key to show the existing map names would help). The problems would be having a learning curve (I would not mind), less modernity (but let's not forget that GUI will never be as efficient as CLR) -- but since the normal GUI version will not be removed, I don't see any problem. People who don't want to use it, will definitely not.
With this, you could log in just to chat from bad PCs (even phone, tablet, w/e).
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On February 21 2013 10:21 warshop wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2013 10:03 AnomalySC2 wrote:
I've never understood the bnet whining. The GAME is what matters most. An interface is part of the game experience. Imagine trying to play a board game but the manual is written in random order. Alright, poor analogy, but you get the point.
The sad thing is, I know more than one board game for which this is the case, one of which my friends and I basically re-wrote a cheat-sheet manual.
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Other Curiosities
when watching a replay or observing a game, clicking on the image placeholder in the production tab will automatically center the camera on that area specifically.
Stage one training has a build order feature that is directly lifted form YABOT.
I don't know why you call that "Curiosities", it's just extra features.
1) The real curiosity is that if you click on something that's already on your screen, it doesn't move the camera at all ( it doesn't center on the unit/building). Probably a concern about the smoothness of observer cam for esports broadcasts.
2) It's the other way around, YABOT copied the beginner training missions in WoL. 2.0.4's challenges have exactly the same UI, same sounds and types of objective. Consistently enough.
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On February 22 2013 02:00 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +Other Curiosities
when watching a replay or observing a game, clicking on the image placeholder in the production tab will automatically center the camera on that area specifically.
Stage one training has a build order feature that is directly lifted form YABOT. I don't know why you call that "Curiosities", it's just extra features. 1) The real curiosity is that if you click on something that's already on your screen, it doesn't move the camera at all ( it doesn't center on the unit/building). Probably a concern about the smoothness of observer cam for esports broadcasts. 2) It's the other way around, YABOT copied the beginner training missions in WoL. 2.0.4's challenges have exactly the same UI, same sounds and types of objective. Consistently enough.
1). If you've activated the "Follow Unit (Ctrl-Shift-F)" function during game-play or observation, everything you click on until you move your camera is centered and followed. The reason why clicking on objects when you're not following them doesn't center your screen is because if you have over 10 APM it would be a total mindfuck.
2). YABOT was far more comprehensive than anything used before it in SC2 challenges or tutorials. YABOT also took into account the metagame and was updated accordingly. Basically, Blizzard put a custom map-maker out of business and probably won't give them any credit. Granted, there probably isn't any money on the line for the custom map maker.
What some consider to be "nit-picking" is actually an accumulation of annoyance from having to navigate a shitty user interface that needs to be vocalized. Thanks OP for making this thread and hopefully someone from Blizzard gets to see it who isn't overly dismissive of the whole thing. Some good points were made about inconsistency and bugs (mostly key-bind related bugs, it seems). I don't agree with everything but I second the notion that Blizzard proves to us all the time that they care more about adding nonsensical casual-friendly UI features than they do about testing. Sad, because it's the disappointed fans who typically have the staying power while the casuals die off.
EDIT: I feel like the Blizzard launcher is overlooked as something terrible that causes many of us headaches. Lately, I can't even get to the launcher because of a trash ethernet controller driver that I'm not even using for an internet connection. The launcher detects the erroneous driver and won't pass the "updating blizzard launcher" phase until a driver reinstall. Odd, because I use wireless.
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On February 22 2013 01:42 maartendq wrote:
I sometimes believe I'm the only one here who has never had a problem with B.net 2.0's interface from the beginning. It perfectly allowed me to do what I wanted it to do: play starcraft 2 and chat with friends.
At least we're two... But better be quiet about it.
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On February 22 2013 02:32 dUTtrOACh wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2013 02:00 ZenithM wrote:Other Curiosities
when watching a replay or observing a game, clicking on the image placeholder in the production tab will automatically center the camera on that area specifically.
Stage one training has a build order feature that is directly lifted form YABOT. I don't know why you call that "Curiosities", it's just extra features. 1) The real curiosity is that if you click on something that's already on your screen, it doesn't move the camera at all ( it doesn't center on the unit/building). Probably a concern about the smoothness of observer cam for esports broadcasts. 2) It's the other way around, YABOT copied the beginner training missions in WoL. 2.0.4's challenges have exactly the same UI, same sounds and types of objective. Consistently enough. 1). If you've activated the "Follow Unit (Ctrl-Shift-F)" function during game-play or observation, everything you click on until you move your camera is centered and followed. The reason why clicking on objects when you're not following them doesn't center your screen is because if you have over 10 APM it would be a total mindfuck.
I was obviously talking about replays, not about when you actually play (who uses the follow mode while playing :D). You might want to take a look at the new feature in HotS and 2.0.4. You can now click on things in the production or unit tab and the camera is instantly centered on that thing. Not a mindfuck at all, but a weird behavior if you click on things that are on the same screen. Why not center every time you click (in an item in the production tab, not on anything in the game), was my question.
2). YABOT was far more comprehensive than anything used before it in SC2 challenges or tutorials. YABOT also took into account the metagame and was updated accordingly. Basically, Blizzard put a custom map-maker out of business and probably won't give them any credit. Granted, there probably isn't any money on the line for the custom map maker.
[...]
Unless I'm mistaken, the mini-challenges from Blizzard are intended for beginners. No practice and no metagame here. OP was just talking about the UI design I think, not about the features. The day hasn't come that I will stop using YABOT for practicing builds, I can tell you that :D
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EPT
