SK Planet Proleague 2012-2013 Round 2 Maps: (2)WCS Cloud Kingdom LE (2)WCS Ohana LE (4)WCS Antiga Shipyard (4)WCS Entombed Valley (2)KeSPA Neo Bifrost (2)KeSPA Neo Caldeum (2)KeSPA Neo Planet S (4)KeSPA Neo Arkanoid
Balance Change Notes:
Entombed Valley - As you can see, Tal'Darim Altar has been removed. Proleague noticed far too many ZvZs going on on that map so they replaced it with Entombed Valley.
Neo Bifrost - Base entrance has been widened. It is now possible to create buildings on the 6'o clock and 12'o clock cliff positions. Bushes in front of third bases have been removed.
Neo Arkanoid: The scouting path for reapers have changed so that it takes longer for them to exit from the 3rd area to scout other areas. 18 min instead of 20 min before rocks go down.
Neo Caldeum: Main has been altered so you can't blink in from behind the rocks, and Natural mineral/rock/mineral/assimilator has been altered slightly.
Neo Planet S: Takes 5 FF instead of 4 around the map, plus the rush distance and the paths have been slightly altered.
On January 04 2013 06:47 supernovamaniac wrote: Ok, I'm back. Here are all the notes on the new maps:
Neo Bifrost: Player can now defend their gas from air-units in their natural (Watch JangBi vs skyHigh for reference, there was an instance where skyHigh was able to hit the assimilator with his banshee, and JangBi had no way to kill the banshee except with an air unit)
Neo Caldeum: The rock's defense (err... forgot the actual term) behind the natural reduced to 0 from 3, and minerals are 20 instead of 30. The neutral assimilator's defense from 5 to 3.
Neo Planet S: The location of the gold bases have been changed from 1~7 to 5~11 o'clock positions. In addition, the routes at 12 and 6 have been altered so that siege tanks from other side (from semi-lower/higher path I guess) cannot defend against the units on the other side.
Sorry that these notes aren't formal enough to be just copy pasted into the OP =/. All notes taken from fomos, have been summarized. If mods have problem with this, feel free to remove this post.
On January 04 2013 12:34 supernovamaniac wrote: OK, so they made it so that Colossi cannot walk outside of their main without destroying the rocks. Instead, they have small 'pits' so that reapers can still get out of the main, but only through the center.
i.e.
This means that its going to be harder for reapers to scout if the opponent took the third, because they will be headbutting into opponent's main, instead of the 3rd area.
Hmmm, replaced with Entombed? The new ladder maps probably haven't had enough testing. Maybe we'll see one of them next round, but it's doubtful that they'd switch any without major imbalances.
I think they're saying for build diversity for Terran they're increasing the reaper rush distance on Arkenoid, or something.
Edit: I think it says they're making the rocks get destroyed at 18 minutes instead of 20.
Neo Arkanoid: The scouting path for reapers have changed so that it takes longer for them to exit from the 3rd area to scout other areas. 18 min instead of 20 min before rocks go down. Neo Caldeum: Main has been altered so you can't blink in from behind the rocks, and Natural mineral/rock/mineral/assimilator has been altered slightly. Neo Planet S: Takes 5 FF instead of 4 around the map, plus the rush distance and the paths have been slightly altered.
(quick translations, as I have to head out right now. I'll post more info when I can)
On January 04 2013 05:31 supernovamaniac wrote: Neo Planet S: Takes 5 FF instead of 4 around the map, plus the rush distance and the paths have been slightly altered.
Around the map? Does mean all paths are less wide?
On January 04 2013 05:31 supernovamaniac wrote: Neo Planet S: Takes 5 FF instead of 4 around the map, plus the rush distance and the paths have been slightly altered.
Around the map? Does mean all paths are less wide?
More wide,* apparently protoss were doing too well..
On January 04 2013 05:31 supernovamaniac wrote: Neo Planet S: Takes 5 FF instead of 4 around the map, plus the rush distance and the paths have been slightly altered.
Around the map? Does mean all paths are less wide?
On January 04 2013 05:31 supernovamaniac wrote: Neo Planet S: Takes 5 FF instead of 4 around the map, plus the rush distance and the paths have been slightly altered.
Around the map? Does mean all paths are less wide?
More wide,* apparently protoss were doing too well..
Yeah, that's what I meant. The emphasis was supposed to be on "all paths" though... "Around the Map" is a bit vague. Are all the paths the same exact size across the whole map? Or maybe it's specifically the ramps which are changed from 4x to 5x?
Ok, I'm back. Here are all the notes on the new maps:
Neo Bifrost: Player can now defend their gas from air-units in their natural (Watch JangBi vs skyHigh for reference, there was an instance where skyHigh was able to hit the assimilator with his banshee, and JangBi had no way to kill the banshee except with an air unit)
Neo Caldeum: The rock's defense (err... forgot the actual term) behind the natural reduced to 0 from 3, and minerals are 20 instead of 30. The neutral assimilator's defense from 5 to 3.
Neo Planet S: The location of the gold bases have been changed from 1~7 to 5~11 o'clock positions. In addition, the routes at 12 and 6 have been altered so that siege tanks from other side (from semi-lower/higher path I guess) cannot defend against the units on the other side.
Sorry that these notes aren't formal enough to be just copy pasted into the OP =/. All notes taken from fomos, have been summarized. If mods have problem with this, feel free to remove this post.
On January 04 2013 06:47 supernovamaniac wrote: Ok, I'm back. Here are all the notes on the new maps:
Neo Bifrost: Player can now defend their gas from air-units in their natural (Watch JangBi vs skyHigh for reference, there was an instance where skyHigh was able to hit the assimilator with his banshee, and JangBi had no way to kill the banshee except with an air unit)
Neo Caldeum: The rock's defense (err... forgot the actual term) behind the natural reduced to 0 from 3, and minerals are 20 instead of 30. The neutral assimilator's defense from 5 to 3.
Neo Planet S: The location of the gold bases have been changed from 1~7 to 5~11 o'clock positions. In addition, the routes at 12 and 6 have been altered so that siege tanks from other side (from semi-lower/higher path I guess) cannot defend against the units on the other side.
Sorry that these notes aren't formal enough to be just copy pasted into the OP =/. All notes taken from fomos, then summarized. If mods have problem with this, feel free to remove this post.
Oh yeah, I was bugged by the lack of space around the geysers on Bifrost. Having space around the geysers is always something I do for every base on maps, and I think it aught to be standard. I'm glad they fixed that.
Seems like the backdoor stuff on Caldeum was really underused so reducing the armor of the rocks and assimilator and reducing the mineral count seems like a good thing. I didn't know the assimilator had 5 armor, though.
Still confused about the Planet S notes, though. Weren't the golds already at 5/11? And I'm not sure what that means about the 12/6 locations.
On January 04 2013 06:53 Gfire wrote: Oh yeah, I was bugged by the lack of space around the geysers on Bifrost. Having space around the geysers is always something I do for every base on maps, and I think it aught to be standard. I'm glad they fixed that.
Seems like the backdoor stuff on Caldeum was really underused so reducing the armor of the rocks and assimilator and reducing the mineral count seems like a good thing. I didn't know the assimilator had 5 armor, though.
Still confused about the Planet S notes, though. Weren't the golds already at 5/11? And I'm not sure what that means about the 12/6 locations.
I'll ask Jacky for a pic.
I'm also not sure about the 12/6 locations so I'm going to test it out myself. I think its just that the paths are wider so that its harder for siege tanks to hit the other side's units when they pass by. The golds were at 1/7 actually, instead of 5/11. Though, golds being at 5/11 means that its easier to defend against high-ground harassment on workers if you take the gold on your side. Still need to go down the ramp to defend against main army that's killing your Command/Nexus/Hatchery, but better than before. Also, the rush distance has been changed from 32 seconds to 34 seconds due to the changes to the map.
BTW, the 5 FF thing has been applied to all "major battle" locations, which is still ambiguous imo. Pictures are up on fomos, and I did not post them here because there have been problems with translating/posting fomos stuff on here in the past.
I love how current Proleague is keeping the map pool. Little adjustments like these show a great deal of care and attention to detail. Say what you will about KeSPA, as a fan and consumer I love that they are this active. At least in this regard other leagues could take some notes.
On January 04 2013 06:59 ThomasjServo wrote: I love how current Proleague is keeping the map pool. Little adjustments like these show a great deal of care and attention to detail. Say what you will about KeSPA, as a fan and consumer I love that they are this active. At least in this regard other leagues could take some notes.
Was coming here to say this exactly. Sure Entombed Valley is still a map that's been around for awhile, but it's still better to watch then TDA. Also the fact that they are changing up their 4 new maps a little bit to help with overall balance is great. Just goes to show that tweaking maps and bringing new ones in isn't as hard as it should be. Hopefully other tournaments start doing the same.
Wait they have Entomed listed as "Ladder Maps" does this mean that the super imba close spawns are still gonna be around or will it likely be cross spawn only?
On January 04 2013 07:11 Spray wrote: Wait they have Entomed listed as "Ladder Maps" does this mean that the super imba close spawns are still gonna be around or will it likely be cross spawn only?
Antiga is also under ladder maps, and they've enforced cross spawn on that.
On January 04 2013 06:59 ThomasjServo wrote: I love how current Proleague is keeping the map pool. Little adjustments like these show a great deal of care and attention to detail. Say what you will about KeSPA, as a fan and consumer I love that they are this active. At least in this regard other leagues could take some notes.
Was coming here to say this exactly. Sure Entombed Valley is still a map that's been around for awhile, but it's still better to watch then TDA. Also the fact that they are changing up their 4 new maps a little bit to help with overall balance is great. Just goes to show that tweaking maps and bringing new ones in isn't as hard as it should be. Hopefully other tournaments start doing the same.
At the very least, every tournament version of Daybreak needs to alter those wonky map features that Colossus AI bug out on all the time. As funny as it is to see three Colossi derp out, it has happened a bit too much in my opinion.
On January 04 2013 06:59 ThomasjServo wrote: I love how current Proleague is keeping the map pool. Little adjustments like these show a great deal of care and attention to detail. Say what you will about KeSPA, as a fan and consumer I love that they are this active. At least in this regard other leagues could take some notes.
Was coming here to say this exactly. Sure Entombed Valley is still a map that's been around for awhile, but it's still better to watch then TDA. Also the fact that they are changing up their 4 new maps a little bit to help with overall balance is great. Just goes to show that tweaking maps and bringing new ones in isn't as hard as it should be. Hopefully other tournaments start doing the same.
At the very least, every tournament version of Daybreak needs to alter those wonky map features that Colossus AI bug out on all the time. As funny as it is to see three Colossi derp out, it has happened a bit too much in my opinion.
Never noticed it. I always thought the pathing on Daybreak was fine. It's Cloud Kingdom that I noticed some sloppy cliff pathing on.
But I now checked it and your right. *Sigh* Map makers need to realize that it's important to make sure all the blue and red pathing is proper. At the very least Blizzard should.
On January 04 2013 07:11 Spray wrote: Wait they have Entomed listed as "Ladder Maps" does this mean that the super imba close spawns are still gonna be around or will it likely be cross spawn only?
On January 04 2013 05:31 supernovamaniac wrote: Neo Planet S: Takes 5 FF instead of 4 around the map, plus the rush distance and the paths have been slightly altered.
Around the map? Does mean all paths are less wide?
More wide,* apparently protoss were doing too well..
aka Bisu managed to win a game on the map
I really hope we start moving away from Antiga and Entombed soon. I'm growing tired of those two maps, and even TDA almost felt like a breath of slightly fresher air.
On January 04 2013 05:31 supernovamaniac wrote: Neo Planet S: Takes 5 FF instead of 4 around the map, plus the rush distance and the paths have been slightly altered.
Around the map? Does mean all paths are less wide?
More wide,* apparently protoss were doing too well..
aka Bisu managed to win a game on the map
I really hope we start moving away from Antiga and Entombed soon. I'm growing tired of those two maps, and even TDA almost felt like a breath of slightly fresher air.
Yeah, I didn't mind TDA in the pool for round 1. After so much ZvZ, however, even though I don't mind ZvZ there that much, I got kinda sick of it. Glad it's out now, but Entombed doesn't bring a lot of excitement.
Of course for kespa all these maps are sort of equally new so I can understand somewhat. I wonder what the Korean viewers think... I'd imagine a lot of them don't know Entombed or Antiga as older than other maps... Of course all the maps are getting kinda old these days.
On January 04 2013 10:55 Laryleprakon wrote: I love how the are doing small changes to existing maps to balance them instead of a whole new map.
In BW Proleague, every new Proleague brought an almost entirely new map pool. Most start out with some imbalance (slight to major imbalances) which are tweaked the next round or so. Thus there are a lot of "Neo whatever whatever" BW maps. It's kind of a KeSPA tradition with regards to their map pools.
On January 04 2013 10:55 Laryleprakon wrote: I love how the are doing small changes to existing maps to balance them instead of a whole new map.
In BW Proleague, every new Proleague brought an almost entirely new map pool. Most start out with some imbalance (slight to major imbalances) which are tweaked the next round or so. Thus there are a lot of "Neo whatever whatever" BW maps. It's kind of a KeSPA tradition with regards to their map pools.
It's way more fun than seeing good maps just abandoned for 1-2 small things that could be changed, or they never change them and its very boring to watch (GSL has had this often imo)
OK, so they made it so that Colossi cannot walk outside of their main without destroying the rocks. Instead, they have small 'pits' so that reapers can still get out of the main, but only through the center.
i.e.
This means that its going to be harder for reapers to scout if the opponent took the third, because they will be headbutting into opponent's main, instead of the 3rd area.
On January 04 2013 12:34 supernovamaniac wrote: OK, so they made it so that Colossi cannot walk outside of their main without destroying the rocks. Instead, they have small 'pits' so that reapers can still get out of the main, but only through the center.
i.e.
This means that its going to be harder for reapers to scout if the opponent took the third, because they will be headbutting into opponent's main, instead of the 3rd area.
Maybe they are trying to promote some trickery instead of the usual 3 base turtle by making it harder to check all the bases?
On January 04 2013 06:59 ThomasjServo wrote: I love how current Proleague is keeping the map pool. Little adjustments like these show a great deal of care and attention to detail. Say what you will about KeSPA, as a fan and consumer I love that they are this active. At least in this regard other leagues could take some notes.
Was coming here to say this exactly. Sure Entombed Valley is still a map that's been around for awhile, but it's still better to watch then TDA. Also the fact that they are changing up their 4 new maps a little bit to help with overall balance is great. Just goes to show that tweaking maps and bringing new ones in isn't as hard as it should be. Hopefully other tournaments start doing the same.
SPL can change and use more map because player in this league only play for them. There so many foreign tournement, they can't do that because player can't pratice different map for mlg, ipl, dreamhack, etc...
On January 04 2013 06:59 ThomasjServo wrote: I love how current Proleague is keeping the map pool. Little adjustments like these show a great deal of care and attention to detail. Say what you will about KeSPA, as a fan and consumer I love that they are this active. At least in this regard other leagues could take some notes.
Was coming here to say this exactly. Sure Entombed Valley is still a map that's been around for awhile, but it's still better to watch then TDA. Also the fact that they are changing up their 4 new maps a little bit to help with overall balance is great. Just goes to show that tweaking maps and bringing new ones in isn't as hard as it should be. Hopefully other tournaments start doing the same.
SPL can change and use more map because player in this league only play for them. There so many foreign tournement, they can't do that because player can't pratice different map for mlg, ipl, dreamhack, etc...
Sure they can, or if they cant - they could just focus on certain tournaments. The expectation that there should be a large event with every top player present every other weekend seems bit silly anyway.
If the proleague maps keep getting good feedback, the foreign tourneys will start to experiment more with the map pool. If the tourneys that experiment will start getting more views over those who go for the safe&stale - everyone will start to do it, and the players will just need to adapt.
On January 05 2013 17:06 -NegativeZero- wrote: lol, if the new version of Planet S were posted on TL's mapping forum people would be flipping out over the cardinal ramps at the exit to the 3rd
On January 05 2013 17:06 -NegativeZero- wrote: lol, if the new version of Planet S were posted on TL's mapping forum people would be flipping out over the cardinal ramps at the exit to the 3rd
Since Kespa continually ignores the request to publish the maps outside Korea, will someone please send me replays played on the latest versions of the Kespa maps?
Requesting replays played on these maps: KeSPA Neo Arkanoid KeSPA Neo Bifrost KeSPA Neo Caldeum KeSPA Neo Planet S
I will publish the maps to NA/EU as soon I get a replay for each map.
EPT
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