We are also planning Q&A live session at Twitch.TV on the day of 8th January at 20.00 CET - we will answer all your questions regarding Ministry of Win, its situation and future plans.
More information will be available in this topic as well.
If you have any other questions feel free to send an e-mail at: secretariat@ministryofwin.com, we will try to respond to every e-mail.
On December 30 2012 05:06 FrodaN wrote: Can anyone c/p a summary? i'm on my phone and it would take forever to download the pdf x.x
The important stuff is: --- They're claiming that sure, they had problems but a lot wasn't true and most players was satisfied with their stay --- They're explaining some of the drama (Like, staff not getting paid) --- There is a new and refined MoW coming next year --- They don't know when the website will be up again
Basically it's a non-post...with very little actual information.
oliv got payed, her parents did not (something to do with incompetence and their contract being terminated)
Illu will apparently get paid for battle of MoW: get outplayed, but apparently didn't recruit ppl for 2 months and won't be paid that time? Also something about not being able to pay out salaries right now (no reason was given)
Something about the schedules, not really any information there.
but seriously why is the q/a session a week and a half from now? you should strike the drama while its hot...
anyways gg MOW because after this one I dont think anyone will want to do business with you ( i wouldnt ). Unless youre like bruce wayne or something and dont mind being ripped off cause youre above all that...
I think it's better to refrain from calling people incompetent or accusing them of not meeting requirements in an "official" statement. It's not very classy, even if it is true.
Ministry of Win recently took part in a competition organized by "Puls Biznesu" - a Polish business news organization. BBI Seed Fund, Puls Biznesu and a few other potential investors were to invest in the best looking project. Feedback was enourmous and so they decided to back five different projects, instead of one. The biggest piece of the cake, however, which is about 4 million PLN (roughly 1,3 million USD) went to the Ministry of Win. Since the project was already paying dividends by that time, I would truly expect the MoW to arise anew, enhanced and more refined in the upcoming year.
I do hope that they will finally invest in proper staff (people who are actually qualified for the job rather than just being friends with whoever is running the project). Let's hope a PR specialist and a proper, fucking, translator will be among them. The idea behind the project is bloody fantastic and will probably defend itself for a while longer, but amateur hour has to stop. Otherwise, the show won't continue for much longer, even with the recent money injection in mind.
I have seen desrow and destiny after going to MOW and they do not seem to have improved at all. Is there a really practice session that happens on the house like a korean pro gamer house or people just go there to ladder? dont take it as an offense but as criticism.
I agree with IdrA. It's nice to make a topic trying to explain your side of the story, but the pdf had no important content whatsoever. It tried dismissing the vast majority of accusations and problems, and only made me thankful that I don't have to consider MoW as a practice house, since I'm not in this business of looking to be a pro-gamer.
It definitely didn't clear the air or make me feel any better about MoW. All we can say now is that MoW posted... *something*. But, in my opinion, it didn't do much help for MoW.
On December 30 2012 05:15 SonKiE wrote: Why would you ever consider going to a pro GAMING house in POLAND?
or even in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?
cause those are team houses
You mean frat houses?
@topic Weird to make a topic about this subject and post a link to a PDF. Sure some of the big boys do that but when you try to act like them it comes out like the taco you ate last night. Some people have been hurt and goes on a tantrum, community explodes because OFC THEY KNEW a pro gaming house in Poland couldn't actually work!
Oh wait it did. With better results than most pro team houses, or frat houses.
It was not a lie that you made David (Kamacho) miss his lunch which is the only hot meal of the day because he was late to breakfast and missed it, you said you did this because he has to have some kind of "Punishment" or something like that because we were wasting food at breakfast.
On December 30 2012 05:15 SonKiE wrote: Why would you ever consider going to a pro GAMING house in POLAND?
or even in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?
cause those are team houses
You mean frat houses?
Team houses in USA are fucking awesome. Team house in poland? With no nerchio? ugh...
Nerchio is still studying while playing. + MoW isn't a Team House, there is no team MoW, it was a pro gaming house or however you want to call it, but it wasn't a team house. Well, i was really looking forward to this project since 1st news about them. Was disappointed when it was going to be made in Warsaw not in Poznan, it was ok for first months, then first drama came... sad. Also + Show Spoiler +
http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/9430/kropekkkk.gif tells the whole story basicly
On December 30 2012 05:15 SonKiE wrote: Why would you ever consider going to a pro GAMING house in POLAND?
or even in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?
cause those are team houses
You mean frat houses?
@topic Weird to make a topic about this subject and post a link to a PDF. Sure some of the big boys do that but when you try to act like them it comes out like the taco you ate last night. Some people have been hurt and goes on a tantrum, community explodes because OFC THEY KNEW a pro gaming house in Poland couldn't actually work!
Oh wait it did. With better results than most pro team houses, or frat houses.
I'm glad they take this serious at least and address the community...
That said:
PLEASE take aggressive steps to improving the MoW business. Right now it seems like "X issue occurs" and then we wait a few days and MoW replies "Not THAT bad. But yeah we need to make it better" this has happened 4-5 times on a pretty large scale so far.
The idea of a scheduled, training facility that encourages streaming and improving is amazing. Side tourneys is a cool bonus. But Snute left and the most PR I see on MoW being "SEE? THIS WORKS!" is a mention in a press release on how you aren't in fact closing your doors and you kinda do pay people.
Get staff that can feed these guys normally, coach them and motivate them to train, include some physical exercise and then BLAST the PR. Healthier, better nerds leaving your place is an amazing accomplishment and important for this community. More drama and a failed experiment is NOT needed.
Anyone from MoW: If you need help I volunteer myself to help in any way I can from here.. I know it ain't much but know that there is at least that. Just PM/tweet me or w/e,
We were hurt by many of your opinions simply because we spent many months working on this project, and we did all of this for the gamers, but that does not matter as we did all of this, because we love eSports
It's unfortunate their feelings got hurt, good thing they did it all for the gamers....these are good people!!
Our house existed not only because of our hard-working staff, but also thanks to you guys, the community, which we appreciate and thank for the comments
<333, np, bruh.
Kevin did an amazing job during Battle at Ministry of Win: get outPlayed, for which he will get paid
oh, that makes sense--you pay people you employ!
Unfortunately, we have a delay with paying out the salaries for which we are very sorry. We promise that it will not happen in the future.
np, credibility: +3/+3
This reminds me a bit of NASL Season 1, or any government grant gone wrong (solar subsidies, usa), they got the monies, but no ability. But, if NASL is anything like MoW, we can expect MoW:4 to be very good? Money fixes stuff.
You cannot not pay people because you don't feel they did a good job. You can terminate their contract but you cannot simply not pay them for the time they did work. Reading the press release made me feel that MoW didn't understand this.
I don't really know what to think about it. I want to stay positive and give them my support but there are so many reasons not to trust them anymore... Sadly, I can't think of anyone that would WANT to go to MoW after all this.
The most important thing I have to ask the Ministry of Win after looking really closely at their press release is...
How do you like Microsoft Office 2013 preview? Is it working pretty well for you? Think you might buy it, or are you going to stick with 2010 until after the first few patches?
(The actual Press Release is more standard, professional fare. No kittens. Limited information, but what are you expecting with the possibility of litigation hanging around?)
Also, I think IdrA could've used just one post, maybe with spoilers, and gotten the same effect rather than using five posts. This isn't twitter, you can use more than 140 characters. iNcontroL also has good business ideas for the MoW. Hope they listen to both as they move forward.
(Note: The point about IdrA is stylistic, not antagonistic.)
I hope we don't move toward a future where players have to participate in 3rd party team houses in order to train well. Team houses sponsored by the actual teams have far less drama and are far better managed because the team has an incentive to provide the best quality environment they possibly can as opposed to trying to make money off pros.
On December 30 2012 05:38 True_Spike wrote: Ministry of Win recently took part in a competition organized by "Puls Biznesu" - a Polish business news organization. BBI Seed Fund, Puls Biznesu and a few other potential investors were to invest in the best looking project. Feedback was enourmous and so they decided to back five different projects, instead of one. The biggest piece of the cake, however, which is about 4 million PLN (roughly 1,3 million USD) went to the Ministry of Win. Since the project was already paying dividends by that time, I would truly expect the MoW to arise anew, enhanced and more refined in the upcoming year.
I do hope that they will finally invest in proper staff (people who are actually qualified for the job rather than just being friends with whoever is running the project). Let's hope a PR specialist and a proper, fucking, translator will be among them. The idea behind the project is bloody fantastic and will probably defend itself for a while longer, but amateur hour has to stop. Otherwise, the show won't continue for much longer, even with the recent money injection in mind.
Iunno why people are ignoring this post. I think this is huge and is faaaaar more important than to post the same shit all over again - "ya, no information whatsoever in that statement" "wtf pdf? y u no write, c/p here?" "MoW such a joke" etc etc.
On December 30 2012 05:38 True_Spike wrote: Ministry of Win recently took part in a competition organized by "Puls Biznesu" - a Polish business news organization. BBI Seed Fund, Puls Biznesu and a few other potential investors were to invest in the best looking project. Feedback was enourmous and so they decided to back five different projects, instead of one. The biggest piece of the cake, however, which is about 4 million PLN (roughly 1,3 million USD) went to the Ministry of Win. Since the project was already paying dividends by that time, I would truly expect the MoW to arise anew, enhanced and more refined in the upcoming year.
I do hope that they will finally invest in proper staff (people who are actually qualified for the job rather than just being friends with whoever is running the project). Let's hope a PR specialist and a proper, fucking, translator will be among them. The idea behind the project is bloody fantastic and will probably defend itself for a while longer, but amateur hour has to stop. Otherwise, the show won't continue for much longer, even with the recent money injection in mind.
Iunno why people are ignoring this post. I think this is huge and is faaaaar more important than to post the same shit all over again - "ya, no information whatsoever in that statement" "wtf pdf? y u no write, c/p here?" "MoW such a joke" etc etc.
Maybe, just maybe, this needed to be in the press release instead of the trashtalk about Artist's parents ?
On December 30 2012 06:19 iNcontroL wrote: I'm glad they take this serious at least and address the community...
That said:
PLEASE take aggressive steps to improving the MoW business. Right now it seems like "X issue occurs" and then we wait a few days and MoW replies "Not THAT bad. But yeah we need to make it better" this has happened 4-5 times on a pretty large scale so far.
The idea of a scheduled, training facility that encourages streaming and improving is amazing. Side tourneys is a cool bonus. But Snute left and the most PR I see on MoW being "SEE? THIS WORKS!" is a mention in a press release on how you aren't in fact closing your doors and you kinda do pay people.
Get staff that can feed these guys normally, coach them and motivate them to train, include some physical exercise and then BLAST the PR. Healthier, better nerds leaving your place is an amazing accomplishment and important for this community. More drama and a failed experiment is NOT needed.
Anyone from MoW: If you need help I volunteer myself to help in any way I can from here.. I know it ain't much but know that there is at least that. Just PM/tweet me or w/e,
GL!
I think you're expecting way too much from them. :/
It's nice they're giving some openness I guess. May I suggest investing in not paying a writer for press releases though? Probably feed people first however.
Pretty sure IdrA just won the thread, with that said this organization continues to dissapoint me and I'm guessing many other people in the community. If they don't shape up, I won't be surprised if the Community backlash is so bad that they just stop.
On December 30 2012 05:15 SonKiE wrote: Why would you ever consider going to a pro GAMING house in POLAND?
or even in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?
cause those are team houses
You mean frat houses?
@topic Weird to make a topic about this subject and post a link to a PDF. Sure some of the big boys do that but when you try to act like them it comes out like the taco you ate last night. Some people have been hurt and goes on a tantrum, community explodes because OFC THEY KNEW a pro gaming house in Poland couldn't actually work!
Oh wait it did. With better results than most pro team houses, or frat houses.
Don't hate for no reason, it's getting pretty old. Which players from MoW have improved/accomplished anything? To my knowledge Snute was staying at MoW and trained pretty exclusively on the Korean ladder. He's pretty much the only player I've heard from since training at that place. EGTL is winning matches in Pro League, what are the players training at MoW doing? Receding into obscurity for the most part. Again, all the curse and frathouse comments were old a year ago, get some new jokes that are actually relevant.
There is more fluff in this than a bag of marshmallows. I pray to God there is more information in the Live QA because without any real details it is difficult to tell if the players are being treated properly. If I am PAYING my money to live in a practice house I find it as a slap in the face that you would be putting curfews and in credibly strict schedules on me(especially grown men). I understand the need for scheduling as it would be unfair for someone to want a practice partner in the house and they are always off doing other stuff.....but just treat them like adults.
I also find it weird that apparently Snute is the only one following this schedule, thus following the schedule means success? Come on that's too fishy.
theres a lot of he said she said going on, with no actual facts or evidence. Theres people stating "facts" but thats not really conclusive. i feel MoW is in the wrong, but i want to keep an open mind until this is sorted out
Honestly i am impressed. As far as chess analogies go, mow is disadvantaged according to theory, but they are no means out from the game. They said they didnt pay employees thatdidnt do work(good) and their payment is delayed(esports standard). They denied allegations about the manager being really lame and then refocused on their goal and relative success.
In order to refute this, you have to get the parents to deny their failure to work and get players to go at odds with MOW that they are liars. Otherwise, as long as players are still in the house and mow has such good pr, ill assume the house is decent for its purpose and progamers gossip so im sure its nottoo bad.
Currently in doubt about MoW, given all the mishaps and negative reputation, feedback and all, however, I guess we will see how the refined MoW will be like and if changes are made for the better - certainly would like to see that happen, rather than more unhappy/angry people. The project itself is an excellent idea, but it needs to be backed by a solid management and organization, in order to function properly. Too much negativity is currently surrounding that place and unless that changes, people won't give any credibility to the house - and I'd not blame them in the slightest.
On December 30 2012 07:45 Bippzy wrote: Honestly i am impressed. As far as chess analogies go, mow is disadvantaged according to theory, but they are no means out from the game. They said they didnt pay employees thatdidnt do work(good) and their payment is delayed(esports standard). They denied allegations about the manager being really lame and then refocused on their goal and relative success.
In order to refute this, you have to get the parents to deny their failure to work and get players to go at odds with MOW that they are liars. Otherwise, as long as players are still in the house and mow has such good pr, ill assume the house is decent for its purpose and progamers gossip so im sure its nottoo bad.
You know, "the Boss" is me. I'm the one who invented this project and is in here from the beginning.
I can take everything bad on me that happened, and I will still try to improve this. It's not fluff in the statement, with every defeat we gain more experience.
I am pretty sure that the idea is amazing, the execution may not be that well, but the most important thing is that (I guess) noone that do something that he loves is trying to hurt it. We're not trying to hurt e-sports. We were working very hard and we are going to do that even harder.
I am pretty amazed by the incontrol's post, I am going to contact you within the next few days.
We are all building e-sports. The community, players, all the people. Let's keep it up and create something special, because... we can. Destroying is not the way.
On December 30 2012 05:15 SonKiE wrote: Why would you ever consider going to a pro GAMING house in POLAND?
or even in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?
cause those are team houses
You mean frat houses?
@topic Weird to make a topic about this subject and post a link to a PDF. Sure some of the big boys do that but when you try to act like them it comes out like the taco you ate last night. Some people have been hurt and goes on a tantrum, community explodes because OFC THEY KNEW a pro gaming house in Poland couldn't actually work!
Oh wait it did. With better results than most pro team houses, or frat houses.
Don't hate for no reason, it's getting pretty old. Which players from MoW have improved/accomplished anything? To my knowledge Snute was staying at MoW and trained pretty exclusively on the Korean ladder. He's pretty much the only player I've heard from since training at that place. EGTL is winning matches in Pro League, what are the players training at MoW doing? Receding into obscurity for the most part. Again, all the curse and frathouse comments were old a year ago, get some new jokes that are actually relevant.
TargA's been getting some results since he stayed there.
On December 30 2012 07:14 SupLilSon wrote: Don't hate for no reason, it's getting pretty old. Which players from MoW have improved/accomplished anything? To my knowledge Snute was staying at MoW and trained pretty exclusively on the Korean ladder. He's pretty much the only player I've heard from since training at that place. EGTL is winning matches in Pro League, what are the players training at MoW doing? Receding into obscurity for the most part. Again, all the curse and frathouse comments were old a year ago, get some new jokes that are actually relevant.
I find that very harsh of you The players who came to train here aren't worldclass, so of course they won't achieve anything near what EG or TL players achieved, but the players who came to MoW and actually put effort into training got a lot better and also showed good results. Of course there were also players who went to MoW to "have fun" and who didn't took it as a serious place for practise, but to mainly enjoy themselves with other players, but those weren't all of them. Targa got 3rd place at Dreamhack Sage won Acer Starcraft 2 Challenge Titan won WCS Russia and got 3rd place at RSL and he and livezerg beat several top koreans and top foreigners in clan tournaments And also many of the lesser skilled players showed a lot of improvement I wish the boss would have also done a better job to show those good moments in MoW, which there were plenty of, but nobody actually knows about them Why is it that if some bad stuff happens everyone tries to demonize everything and to destroy everything. I sacrificed everything i had to get the chance to make it in the eSports scene (some of you might think that doing that is dumb, but i don't regret it and i started from a very low point in my life too, so i didn't had anything to lose, but i knew exactly what i wanted to achieve). Even tho it wasn't optimal, i still liked it a lot so far and im thankful to MoW giving me this opportunity to follow my dream.
On December 30 2012 07:45 Bippzy wrote: Honestly i am impressed. As far as chess analogies go, mow is disadvantaged according to theory, but they are no means out from the game. They said they didnt pay employees thatdidnt do work(good) and their payment is delayed(esports standard). They denied allegations about the manager being really lame and then refocused on their goal and relative success.
In order to refute this, you have to get the parents to deny their failure to work and get players to go at odds with MOW that they are liars. Otherwise, as long as players are still in the house and mow has such good pr, ill assume the house is decent for its purpose and progamers gossip so im sure its nottoo bad.
You know, "the Boss" is me. I'm the one who invented this project and is in here from the beginning.
I can take everything bad on me that happened, and I will still try to improve this. It's not fluff in the statement, with every defeat we gain more experience.
I am pretty sure that the idea is amazing, the execution may not be that well, but the most important thing is that (I guess) noone that do something that he loves is trying to hurt it. We're not trying to hurt e-sports. We were working very hard and we are going to do that even harder.
I am pretty amazed by the incontrol's post, I am going to contact you within the next few days.
We are all building e-sports. The community, players, all the people. Let's keep it up and create something special, because... we can. Destroying is not the way.
Regards, Maciej
by "defeat" you mean "shafting people" common mistake.
I can tell this is a professional organisation because they used a pdf, these are the types of things that only important business people such as myself will recognise.
On December 30 2012 07:45 Bippzy wrote: Honestly i am impressed. As far as chess analogies go, mow is disadvantaged according to theory, but they are no means out from the game. They said they didnt pay employees thatdidnt do work(good) and their payment is delayed(esports standard). They denied allegations about the manager being really lame and then refocused on their goal and relative success.
In order to refute this, you have to get the parents to deny their failure to work and get players to go at odds with MOW that they are liars. Otherwise, as long as players are still in the house and mow has such good pr, ill assume the house is decent for its purpose and progamers gossip so im sure its nottoo bad.
You know, "the Boss" is me. I'm the one who invented this project and is in here from the beginning.
I can take everything bad on me that happened, and I will still try to improve this. It's not fluff in the statement, with every defeat we gain more experience.
I am pretty sure that the idea is amazing, the execution may not be that well, but the most important thing is that (I guess) noone that do something that he loves is trying to hurt it. We're not trying to hurt e-sports. We were working very hard and we are going to do that even harder.
I am pretty amazed by the incontrol's post, I am going to contact you within the next few days.
We are all building e-sports. The community, players, all the people. Let's keep it up and create something special, because... we can. Destroying is not the way.
Regards, Maciej
by "defeat" you mean "shafting people" common mistake.
On December 30 2012 05:15 SonKiE wrote: Why would you ever consider going to a pro GAMING house in POLAND?
or even in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?
cause those are team houses
You mean frat houses?
@topic Weird to make a topic about this subject and post a link to a PDF. Sure some of the big boys do that but when you try to act like them it comes out like the taco you ate last night. Some people have been hurt and goes on a tantrum, community explodes because OFC THEY KNEW a pro gaming house in Poland couldn't actually work!
Oh wait it did. With better results than most pro team houses, or frat houses.
Don't hate for no reason, it's getting pretty old. Which players from MoW have improved/accomplished anything? To my knowledge Snute was staying at MoW and trained pretty exclusively on the Korean ladder. He's pretty much the only player I've heard from since training at that place. EGTL is winning matches in Pro League, what are the players training at MoW doing? Receding into obscurity for the most part. Again, all the curse and frathouse comments were old a year ago, get some new jokes that are actually relevant.
TargA's been getting some results since he stayed there.
TargA could have gone anywhere not in Australia and improved. Better internets to practice on = better play. Can't really attribute that solely to MoW.
MoW was a very good environment and was perfect for it's purpose. Play the game and have nothing else to worry about. The owner "Boss" made a few mistakes that made the project looked like a amateur but it is what it is. Also once Kevin the player manager left, there was no one to promote the house or do anything. There was 1 guy who stayed for 2 weeks so if they would have done a better job for that it would have helped a lot for the lesser known and the more known players.
On December 30 2012 06:30 Insomni7 wrote: You cannot not pay people because you don't feel they did a good job. You can terminate their contract but you cannot simply not pay them for the time they did work. Reading the press release made me feel that MoW didn't understand this.
If there was a contract that was violated by not doing the job your contract said you had to do, then yes, you absolutely can refuse to pay. Assuming Illu was on a salary + commission plan for his recruiting work, if he did not hit that commission it's possible that the contract could allow MoW take away from his salary (this happens in America, not sure about Poland). Obviously all this relies on the contract created and the laws governing contracts in Poland, but assuming they're anything like what they are in the US, none of what people are accusing them of doing illegally is even questionable. For instance, Verizon Wireless has a minimum salary that sales workers earn, but by not hitting their quota some of that salary is with-held down to a certain minimum. If Illu was also being given food and lodging, it's likely that this food and lodging was the minimum pay.
I still think MoW is a great thing for the community, and I think they're honestly learning from their mistakes. I would love to see them offer a semi-pro player a month or two and allow that player to make a detailed report of the usefulness and efficiency of the program, which I assume could truly give us a fair and unbiased view of what goes on there. The player would need to be able to record their information and their takes in private, and roll out that information after no longer being in the house.
Now, I don't really trust this community to take that player on their word, but I truly think that would be the best way to show what's going on, and to provide MoW with something concrete to work on. I would love to see this program truly succeed, it's unfortunate that the public sees it the way they do right now.
On December 30 2012 06:30 Insomni7 wrote: You cannot not pay people because you don't feel they did a good job. You can terminate their contract but you cannot simply not pay them for the time they did work. Reading the press release made me feel that MoW didn't understand this.
If there was a contract that was violated by not doing the job your contract said you had to do, then yes, you absolutely can refuse to pay. Assuming Illu was on a salary + commission plan for his recruiting work, if he did not hit that commission it's possible that the contract could allow MoW take away from his salary (this happens in America, not sure about Poland). Obviously all this relies on the contract created and the laws governing contracts in Poland, but assuming they're anything like what they are in the US, none of what people are accusing them of doing illegally is even questionable. For instance, Verizon Wireless has a minimum salary that sales workers earn, but by not hitting their quota some of that salary is with-held down to a certain minimum. If Illu was also being given food and lodging, it's likely that this food and lodging was the minimum pay.
I still think MoW is a great thing for the community, and I think they're honestly learning from their mistakes. I would love to see them offer a semi-pro player a month or two and allow that player to make a detailed report of the usefulness and efficiency of the program, which I assume could truly give us a fair and unbiased view of what goes on there. The player would need to be able to record their information and their takes in private, and roll out that information after no longer being in the house.
Now, I don't really trust this community to take that player on their word, but I truly think that would be the best way to show what's going on, and to provide MoW with something concrete to work on. I would love to see this program truly succeed, it's unfortunate that the public sees it the way they do right now.
It's the same in Poland - it's called "Umowa o Dzieło" (contract work) which is mostly about fullfilling the company's requests.
On December 30 2012 07:14 SupLilSon wrote: Don't hate for no reason, it's getting pretty old. Which players from MoW have improved/accomplished anything? To my knowledge Snute was staying at MoW and trained pretty exclusively on the Korean ladder. He's pretty much the only player I've heard from since training at that place. EGTL is winning matches in Pro League, what are the players training at MoW doing? Receding into obscurity for the most part. Again, all the curse and frathouse comments were old a year ago, get some new jokes that are actually relevant.
I find that very harsh of you The players who came to train here aren't worldclass, so of course they won't achieve anything near what EG or TL players achieved, but the players who came to MoW and actually put effort into training got a lot better and also showed good results. Of course there were also players who went to MoW to "have fun" and who didn't took it as a serious place for practise, but to mainly enjoy themselves with other players, but those weren't all of them. Targa got 3rd place at Dreamhack Sage won Acer Starcraft 2 Challenge Titan won WCS Russia and got 3rd place at RSL and he and livezerg beat several top koreans and top foreigners in clan tournaments And also many of the lesser skilled players showed a lot of improvement I wish the boss would have also done a better job to show those good moments in MoW, which there were plenty of, but nobody actually knows about them Why is it that if some bad stuff happens everyone tries to demonize everything and to destroy everything. I sacrificed everything i had to get the chance to make it in the eSports scene (some of you might think that doing that is dumb, but i don't regret it and i started from a very low point in my life too, so i didn't had anything to lose, but i knew exactly what i wanted to achieve). Even tho it wasn't optimal, i still liked it a lot so far and im thankful to MoW giving me this opportunity to follow my dream.
Well, that's the thing, MoW should focus on updating the website and the good things as well - which completelly stopped, mind you, the website was outdated and the Facebook page offered no updates either... all you hear is the negative and it is really, really easy to assume things, Wilko.
Plus, the mistakes clearly did happen, and it is clear that they were on MoW's side as well. However, I still hope that if things do improve and the house works on presenting the positive things to the community - or even better, the players themselves share them, as they are kinda testimonials to that place, people will regain trust in MoW and the house will start flourishing. But that will only happen if the management visibly tries hard. If things remain as they are now, the place being rather obscure and secretive, and all you can hear are unhappy former employers and some complaints from former residents, that's simply not gonna do it, and the house will disappear sooner or later. All in hands of those who run the house.
On December 30 2012 06:30 Insomni7 wrote: You cannot not pay people because you don't feel they did a good job. You can terminate their contract but you cannot simply not pay them for the time they did work. Reading the press release made me feel that MoW didn't understand this.
If there was a contract that was violated by not doing the job your contract said you had to do, then yes, you absolutely can refuse to pay. Assuming Illu was on a salary + commission plan for his recruiting work, if he did not hit that commission it's possible that the contract could allow MoW take away from his salary (this happens in America, not sure about Poland). Obviously all this relies on the contract created and the laws governing contracts in Poland, but assuming they're anything like what they are in the US, none of what people are accusing them of doing illegally is even questionable. For instance, Verizon Wireless has a minimum salary that sales workers earn, but by not hitting their quota some of that salary is with-held down to a certain minimum. If Illu was also being given food and lodging, it's likely that this food and lodging was the minimum pay.
I still think MoW is a great thing for the community, and I think they're honestly learning from their mistakes. I would love to see them offer a semi-pro player a month or two and allow that player to make a detailed report of the usefulness and efficiency of the program, which I assume could truly give us a fair and unbiased view of what goes on there. The player would need to be able to record their information and their takes in private, and roll out that information after no longer being in the house.
Now, I don't really trust this community to take that player on their word, but I truly think that would be the best way to show what's going on, and to provide MoW with something concrete to work on. I would love to see this program truly succeed, it's unfortunate that the public sees it the way they do right now.
It's the same in Poland - it's called "Umowa o Dzieło" (contract work) which is mostly about fullfilling the company's requests.
Thank you for your post, we will try to improve.
Just some advice, i'm tired of hearing about MoW "trying" to improve. It sounds much more confident and less shady to say
"Thank you for your post, we will address the issues and we will improve"
On December 30 2012 06:30 Insomni7 wrote: You cannot not pay people because you don't feel they did a good job. You can terminate their contract but you cannot simply not pay them for the time they did work. Reading the press release made me feel that MoW didn't understand this.
If there was a contract that was violated by not doing the job your contract said you had to do, then yes, you absolutely can refuse to pay. Assuming Illu was on a salary + commission plan for his recruiting work, if he did not hit that commission it's possible that the contract could allow MoW take away from his salary (this happens in America, not sure about Poland). Obviously all this relies on the contract created and the laws governing contracts in Poland, but assuming they're anything like what they are in the US, none of what people are accusing them of doing illegally is even questionable. For instance, Verizon Wireless has a minimum salary that sales workers earn, but by not hitting their quota some of that salary is with-held down to a certain minimum. If Illu was also being given food and lodging, it's likely that this food and lodging was the minimum pay.
I still think MoW is a great thing for the community, and I think they're honestly learning from their mistakes. I would love to see them offer a semi-pro player a month or two and allow that player to make a detailed report of the usefulness and efficiency of the program, which I assume could truly give us a fair and unbiased view of what goes on there. The player would need to be able to record their information and their takes in private, and roll out that information after no longer being in the house.
Now, I don't really trust this community to take that player on their word, but I truly think that would be the best way to show what's going on, and to provide MoW with something concrete to work on. I would love to see this program truly succeed, it's unfortunate that the public sees it the way they do right now.
It's the same in Poland - it's called "Umowa o Dzieło" (contract work) which is mostly about fullfilling the company's requests.
Thank you for your post, we will try to improve.
Just some advice, i'm tired of hearing about MoW "trying" to improve. It sounds much more confident and less shady to say
"Thank you for your post, we will address the issues and we will improve"
That's why now is the final time to do that. We don't want people to believe any much longer - we want people to see it.
On December 30 2012 08:45 Redox wrote: This community is so good at beating up those that are already on their knees instead of trying to help them get up.
That's because it's easier, that's why. As sad as it is. And agreed with that.
I really don't get why people expect exact details. It's a business - do you walk into a corporate headquarters and demand to know everything that happens? While yes, there are obviously problems, as long as they are being dealt with in a professional way they will be solved. The community getting involved in every issue may seem like a good solution - however only results in more trouble for both sides and slows any kind of possible solution.
However, in the case of a legal infraction, such cases should be brought to light. A lot of the problems so far have come from people who sign a CONTRACT, then have to go back on their agreement and expect no consequences - again, it's a business. Make sure you have a lawyer read the contract before you sign anything, and go in with a full understanding of all of the terms. If something comes up outside of the contract - talk it over (such as denying lunch for missing breakfast..?). If you can't come to a solution that seems fair/reasonable to you, then fine make a post if you like. However, a public post should be one of the LAST options taken by players/community, NOT one of the first.
Overall, I actually think MinistryOfWin has done a decent job handling all of this bad attention media-wise (Not making any claims about the house - they have messed up pretty badly with it so far). However, people need to stop assuming that they are entitled to all of the information about the house (players are to SOME of it, community aren't)
I appreciate how after every time there's an issue with MoW, regardless of who's fault it is, MoW always releases a public statement concerning the matter and answers any questions the community has. It's quite impressive for a small organization without a PR department.
How many red flags do we have to ignore before we finally call out MoW and get them shut down? Just because they're the only guys who do this sort of thing in the community doesn't mean we have to settle for their behavior. They're extremely shady in their practices and need to be regulated before they harm more players.
On December 30 2012 08:54 Glon wrote: I really don't get why people expect exact details. It's a business - do you walk into a corporate headquarters and demand to know everything that happens? While yes, there are obviously problems, as long as they are being dealt with in a professional way they will be solved. The community getting involved in every issue may seem like a good solution - however only results in more trouble for both sides and slows any kind of possible solution.
However, in the case of a legal infraction, such cases should be brought to light. A lot of the problems so far have come from people who sign a CONTRACT, then have to go back on their agreement and expect no consequences - again, it's a business. Make sure you have a lawyer read the contract before you sign anything, and go in with a full understanding of all of the terms. If something comes up outside of the contract - talk it over (such as denying lunch for missing breakfast..?). If you can't come to a solution that seems fair/reasonable to you, then fine make a post if you like. However, a public post should be one of the LAST options taken by players/community, NOT one of the first.
Overall, I actually think MinistryOfWin has done a decent job handling all of this bad attention media-wise (Not making any claims about the house - they have messed up pretty badly with it so far). However, people need to stop assuming that they are entitled to all of the information about the house (players are to SOME of it, community aren't)
On December 30 2012 08:59 Chairman Ray wrote: I appreciate how after every time there's an issue with MoW, regardless of who's fault it is, MoW always releases a public statement concerning the matter and answers any questions the community has. It's quite impressive for a small organization without a PR department.
Whew, this thread is full of knee-jerk reactions. At this point, I do not think anything MoW does will help their image. The community has decided to shit all over them and that's that. Does the crime fit the punishment? Time will tell. It sounds like overall everything was okay except a few hot issues. Unfortunately, they did open themselves up to ridicule by making this a grand community experience of sorts. They could just forgo the publicity advantage and keep this private if they want to, but it is really too late.
I don't know a lot about this situation, but this "press release" seems very unprofessional. You can't seek to appease thousands of fans by calling two of your employees "incompetent" within the first paragraph. The rest of it reads like a teenage girl's whiny blog entry, pleading for approval. If you want to be seen as a professional organization, you should really keep the personal feelings out of it.
On December 30 2012 06:40 Galetmonster wrote: 4 consecutive posts from IdrA is normally bannable no?
it would be thats why i did 5
Idra always breaking the rules.
You should read up and behave like we others do.
Nobody ever gets banned for double-posting, seriously (at least in recent years). If they do a lot, they'll get a warning, and if they do it EVERYWHERE repeatedly after being warned, maybe then.
On December 30 2012 06:30 Insomni7 wrote: You cannot not pay people because you don't feel they did a good job. You can terminate their contract but you cannot simply not pay them for the time they did work. Reading the press release made me feel that MoW didn't understand this.
If there was a contract that was violated by not doing the job your contract said you had to do, then yes, you absolutely can refuse to pay. Assuming Illu was on a salary + commission plan for his recruiting work, if he did not hit that commission it's possible that the contract could allow MoW take away from his salary (this happens in America, not sure about Poland). Obviously all this relies on the contract created and the laws governing contracts in Poland, but assuming they're anything like what they are in the US, none of what people are accusing them of doing illegally is even questionable. For instance, Verizon Wireless has a minimum salary that sales workers earn, but by not hitting their quota some of that salary is with-held down to a certain minimum. If Illu was also being given food and lodging, it's likely that this food and lodging was the minimum pay.
I still think MoW is a great thing for the community, and I think they're honestly learning from their mistakes. I would love to see them offer a semi-pro player a month or two and allow that player to make a detailed report of the usefulness and efficiency of the program, which I assume could truly give us a fair and unbiased view of what goes on there. The player would need to be able to record their information and their takes in private, and roll out that information after no longer being in the house.
Now, I don't really trust this community to take that player on their word, but I truly think that would be the best way to show what's going on, and to provide MoW with something concrete to work on. I would love to see this program truly succeed, it's unfortunate that the public sees it the way they do right now.
What? That definitely isn't how it works in America. Salary absolutely can not be with held. It's a fixed number of guaranteed pay.
If you do not hit your quota, that counts against your commission, not salary, and is then subtracted from commission pay the following month. Salary is never touched. If you continue to fail to reach your quota, you are just simply fired so they aren't wasting money paying you a salary. They don't just randomly refuse to pay your salary.
Even if you are working with a contractor and you don't think they did their job right, you can't just simply refuse to pay them. You'll find yourself in court in a heartbeat.
I was always under the impression that if you hire someone that sucks at their job it is your fault. You made the decision to hire them. They didnt meet the requirements so you fire them. And of course they get paid for the time they did work. Your statement suggests you are withholding pay for time worked. Until you fire someone you must pay them. Am I getting this wrong?
Just to clarify how things are done in Poland: We have several ways of hiring people - there are types of contracts where employee agrees to work (their best ofc for certain hours at the certain place and with this kind of contract payment is known up front and pretty much can not be modified. And there's completely different way of contracting people, where there's no consideration about time and place, just the outcome of the employees work. Amount of payment is known upfront, but it's only paid when the outcome meets the requirements of the agreement. So my guess is that the latter way of contracting was used, but not everyone was on the same page about the shape and quality of the outcome.
On December 30 2012 10:19 Claygirl wrote: Just to clarify how things are done in Poland: We have several ways of hiring people - there are types of contracts where employee agrees to work (their best ofc for certain hours at the certain place and with this kind of contract payment is known up front and pretty much can not be modified. And there's completely different way of contracting people, where there's no consideration about time and place, just the outcome of the employees work. Amount of payment is known upfront, but it's only paid when the outcome meets the requirements of the agreement. So my guess is that the latter way of contracting was used, but not everyone was on the same page about the shape and quality of the outcome.
tbh nearly every player whos been there (including desrow which is cool given 'jew/food drama' happened) says it is a great place for improving etc. Which is WHAT should really matter in "if MoW helps e-sports or not case".
I can understand people saying MoW is looking unproffesional, has bad publicity etc. But people saying they are shady/need to be shut down at once and showing them 'inadequate' hate, I just can't.
On December 30 2012 10:22 mijagi182 wrote: tbh nearly every player whos been there (including desrow which is cool given 'jew/food drama' happened) says it is a great place for improving etc. Which is WHAT should really matter in "if MoW helps e-sports or not case".
I can understand people saying MoW is looking unproffesional, has bad publicity etc. But people saying they are shady/need to be shut down at once and showing them 'inadequate' hate, I just can't.
Thank you as well, this is some kind words here as well.
On December 30 2012 09:34 Cel.erity wrote: I don't know a lot about this situation, but this "press release" seems very unprofessional. You can't seek to appease thousands of fans by calling two of your employees "incompetent" within the first paragraph. The rest of it reads like a teenage girl's whiny blog entry, pleading for approval. If you want to be seen as a professional organization, you should really keep the personal feelings out of it.
Professional statement -> people accuse it of being fluff
Gory details -> people accuse it of being unprofessional
I thought the statement was direct and informative, but also very late (they allowed the drama to snowball) and doesn't excuse them of actually needing to fix those things.
On December 30 2012 10:19 Claygirl wrote: Just to clarify how things are done in Poland: We have several ways of hiring people - there are types of contracts where employee agrees to work (their best ofc for certain hours at the certain place and with this kind of contract payment is known up front and pretty much can not be modified. And there's completely different way of contracting people, where there's no consideration about time and place, just the outcome of the employees work. Amount of payment is known upfront, but it's only paid when the outcome meets the requirements of the agreement. So my guess is that the latter way of contracting was used, but not everyone was on the same page about the shape and quality of the outcome.
Thank you for your explanation, Magda.
Just to be clear. So what happened was the parents were contracted to clean and cook or whatever. The pay and terms were decided before hand and will not be paid till services are fully rendered. BUt the terms are not met and you are going to pay them nothing. Or did u pay them for several periods and are withholding the last period of payment? I would think doing most of the work and getting payed nothing would be immoral. Not saying that is what happened.
On December 30 2012 09:34 Cel.erity wrote: I don't know a lot about this situation, but this "press release" seems very unprofessional. You can't seek to appease thousands of fans by calling two of your employees "incompetent" within the first paragraph. The rest of it reads like a teenage girl's whiny blog entry, pleading for approval. If you want to be seen as a professional organization, you should really keep the personal feelings out of it.
Professional statement -> people accuse it of being fluff
Gory details -> people accuse it of being unprofessional
I thought the statement was direct and informative, but also very late (they allowed the drama to snowball) and doesn't excuse them of actually needing to fix those things.
MoW, I hope you succeed.
You know what the problem is, is that people need sleep. Sometimes you wake up to these things, can't be awake 24/7 you know =(
On December 30 2012 06:30 Insomni7 wrote: You cannot not pay people because you don't feel they did a good job. You can terminate their contract but you cannot simply not pay them for the time they did work. Reading the press release made me feel that MoW didn't understand this.
If there was a contract that was violated by not doing the job your contract said you had to do, then yes, you absolutely can refuse to pay. Assuming Illu was on a salary + commission plan for his recruiting work, if he did not hit that commission it's possible that the contract could allow MoW take away from his salary (this happens in America, not sure about Poland). Obviously all this relies on the contract created and the laws governing contracts in Poland, but assuming they're anything like what they are in the US, none of what people are accusing them of doing illegally is even questionable. For instance, Verizon Wireless has a minimum salary that sales workers earn, but by not hitting their quota some of that salary is with-held down to a certain minimum. If Illu was also being given food and lodging, it's likely that this food and lodging was the minimum pay.
I still think MoW is a great thing for the community, and I think they're honestly learning from their mistakes. I would love to see them offer a semi-pro player a month or two and allow that player to make a detailed report of the usefulness and efficiency of the program, which I assume could truly give us a fair and unbiased view of what goes on there. The player would need to be able to record their information and their takes in private, and roll out that information after no longer being in the house.
Now, I don't really trust this community to take that player on their word, but I truly think that would be the best way to show what's going on, and to provide MoW with something concrete to work on. I would love to see this program truly succeed, it's unfortunate that the public sees it the way they do right now.
What? That definitely isn't how it works in America. Salary absolutely can not be with held. It's a fixed number of guaranteed pay.
If you do not hit your quota, that counts against your commission, not salary, and is then subtracted from commission pay the following month. Salary is never touched. If you continue to fail to reach your quota, you are just simply fired so they aren't wasting money paying you a salary. They don't just randomly refuse to pay your salary.
Even if you are working with a contractor and you don't think they did their job right, you can't just simply refuse to pay them. You'll find yourself in court in a heartbeat.
My mistake, we tend to look at our commission as part of our salary, but that still doesn't change the fact that a) this seems to be legal in Poland, and b) room and board could be considered part of, if not all of the salary, and other tasks would be considered commission based, so no salary would need to be paid in this case. It's also possible that we're using the wrong term, I tend to just use salary as what I earn for completing my duties, which I understand now is a bit confusing. I'll be more clear in the future.
As for the contractor part, that's also a matter of contract. For example, if you hire a contractor to specifically cook x number of meals per day, and those x number of meals include whatever the contract says they need to, if those meals are not cooked to those specifications then the job was not completed. Again, it's all a matter of contract. The state of Pennsylvania has a clause where contractors performing duties for or delivering goods to the state can complete the task but still not be paid for the work, as it was not accepted (taken from a pdf downloaded from this site. 4. Nonconforming Breach. The contractor may perform or make delivery, but still breach the contract, because: a. The delivery is improper (i.e., at the wrong place); or b. The material fails to conform to the specifications or is defective; or c. The work fails to conform to the specifications or is defective.
It later goes to say that the state must give written notice that the work was not done acceptably, and allow the contractor to remove the materials. I'm not 100% sure how this would work in the strictly civilian world (and in other states), and I don't know how this would work in a service related contractible field, but I find it hard to believe there is nothing that could be done if a contractor under performs a job they are being paid for, especially if there is a contract in place stating exactly how that job would be completed.
Regardless, this is all neither here nor there, and without being given more details (which as another poster pointed out we're not really entitled to) we're simply making assumptions and decisions based on partial information which is unnecessary and in my opinion unfair to do.
On December 30 2012 09:34 Cel.erity wrote: I don't know a lot about this situation, but this "press release" seems very unprofessional. You can't seek to appease thousands of fans by calling two of your employees "incompetent" within the first paragraph. The rest of it reads like a teenage girl's whiny blog entry, pleading for approval. If you want to be seen as a professional organization, you should really keep the personal feelings out of it.
You certainly aren`t getting a thank you.
I agree though, after reading that it did not come off professional at all. The document served as a PDF almost convinced me though!
Desrow mentioned MoW today on his stream. He said it was a very good team and everything was fine except the owner was kind of a douche. Desrow said he was able to not worry about anything but playing and that is what a gaming house is for.
On December 30 2012 09:34 Cel.erity wrote: I don't know a lot about this situation, but this "press release" seems very unprofessional. You can't seek to appease thousands of fans by calling two of your employees "incompetent" within the first paragraph. The rest of it reads like a teenage girl's whiny blog entry, pleading for approval. If you want to be seen as a professional organization, you should really keep the personal feelings out of it.
Professional statement -> people accuse it of being fluff
Gory details -> people accuse it of being unprofessional
I thought the statement was direct and informative, but also very late (they allowed the drama to snowball) and doesn't excuse them of actually needing to fix those things.
MoW, I hope you succeed.
You know what the problem is, is that people need sleep. Sometimes you wake up to these things, can't be awake 24/7 you know =(
On December 30 2012 07:45 Bippzy wrote: Honestly i am impressed. As far as chess analogies go, mow is disadvantaged according to theory, but they are no means out from the game. They said they didnt pay employees thatdidnt do work(good) and their payment is delayed(esports standard). They denied allegations about the manager being really lame and then refocused on their goal and relative success.
In order to refute this, you have to get the parents to deny their failure to work and get players to go at odds with MOW that they are liars. Otherwise, as long as players are still in the house and mow has such good pr, ill assume the house is decent for its purpose and progamers gossip so im sure its nottoo bad.
You know, "the Boss" is me. I'm the one who invented this project and is in here from the beginning.
I can take everything bad on me that happened, and I will still try to improve this. It's not fluff in the statement, with every defeat we gain more experience.
I am pretty sure that the idea is amazing, the execution may not be that well, but the most important thing is that (I guess) noone that do something that he loves is trying to hurt it. We're not trying to hurt e-sports. We were working very hard and we are going to do that even harder.
I am pretty amazed by the incontrol's post, I am going to contact you within the next few days.
We are all building e-sports. The community, players, all the people. Let's keep it up and create something special, because... we can. Destroying is not the way.
Regards, Maciej
by "defeat" you mean "shafting people" common mistake.
Not to mention refusing to pay people n stuff. Oh and most of all they have issues feeding their players who stay at the house. Sandwhich a day keeps the doctor away......
MoW is a complete joke and I feel nothing but pity for anyone who goes there.
Don't see what the point is of discounting MoW entirely and banishing them from the community like it seems a lot of the knee-jerk reactions in this thread want to do. They haven't committed a mortal sin that they can't be forgiven for. The bottom line is that the players are staying there and improving. For the community to get involved in details like employee pay (when it's apparently a common form of contract in Poland to make payment conditional) and food for god's sakes is not necessary. And to be honest it's really silly for desrow and these employees to post on TL about it...like why does the public need to get involved in this. I honestly don't give a flying fuck about MoW's cooks or food. I wish MoW success and improvement in the future and I'm confident it will happen.
The thing that really took this "press release" to a new level of "fucked up" was the email that the OP left as means of contact, and the fact that the "press release" is on their server as PDF format, not as an HTML pager or as a post on TL.Net but as an actual PDF.
Also it was amazing to hear that you guys hired a family to cook and clean, it was even more fun to read how incompetent they were at doing it.
I would do a summary or say something funny but I can't for the life of me think of anything since I'm that stunned over how bad this "press release" was.
On December 30 2012 12:17 Integra wrote: The thing that really took this "press release" to a new level of "fucked up" was the email that the OP left as means of contact, and the fact that the "press release" is on their server as PDF format, not as an HTML pager or as a post on TL.Net but as an actual PDF.
Also it was amazing to hear that you guys hired a family to cook and clean, it was even more fun to read how incompetent they were at doing it.
I would do a summary or say something funny but I can't for the life of me think of anything since I'm that stunned over how bad this "press release" was.
You're being overdramatic. An email and a PDF do not make things "a whole new level of fucked up" lol.
I know players have been going to MoW because it seems attractive but it seems like there needs to be a little more transparency and accountability in order for it to work. Hopefully 2013 will be a better year. Otherwise, MoW might just go by the wayside.
On December 30 2012 12:17 Integra wrote: The thing that really took this "press release" to a new level of "fucked up" was the email that the OP left as means of contact, and the fact that the "press release" is on their server as PDF format, not as an HTML pager or as a post on TL.Net but as an actual PDF.
Also it was amazing to hear that you guys hired a family to cook and clean, it was even more fun to read how incompetent they were at doing it.
I would do a summary or say something funny but I can't for the life of me think of anything since I'm that stunned over how bad this "press release" was.
I have no idea how the email the OP left as a contact was fucked up (I'd assumed it was a pseudonym, like nearly all pros in the scene use, as well as many of the support staff). Looked like person@theirwebsite.com to me, which seems pretty reasonable.
I also don't know how the pdf was fucked up. How the message is given only really affects how many people will read it. If their site is going to be down for the foreseeable future, it also provides them somewhere to point other reputable news organizations to.
Their incompetence at their job has everything to do with why they are no longer doing that job, I don't understand why everyone is so offended by that. I was under the impression that English was not the poster's first language, and not everywhere has the same ideas on what each word means, and uses them differently. If I say someone was incompetent at their job, that means they sucked at it. Would you rather I say "they were incredibly bad at the jobs we tasked them to do"? That means pretty much the same thing.
I think you, like many other people in this thread, are being hard on MoW for reasons that are exaggerated for drama.
On December 30 2012 12:17 Integra wrote: The thing that really took this "press release" to a new level of "fucked up" was the email that the OP left as means of contact, and the fact that the "press release" is on their server as PDF format, not as an HTML pager or as a post on TL.Net but as an actual PDF.
Also it was amazing to hear that you guys hired a family to cook and clean, it was even more fun to read how incompetent they were at doing it.
I would do a summary or say something funny but I can't for the life of me think of anything since I'm that stunned over how bad this "press release" was.
Their incompetence at their job has everything to do with why they are no longer doing that job, I don't understand why everyone is so offended by that. I was under the impression that English was not the poster's first language, and not everywhere has the same ideas on what each word means, and uses them differently. If I say someone was incompetent at their job, that means they sucked at it. Would you rather I say "they were incredibly bad at the jobs we tasked them to do"? That means pretty much the same thing.
I think you, like many other people in this thread, are being hard on MoW for reasons that are exaggerated for drama.
You may be right, but it still sounds bad. "I'm sorry about all this drama, by the way our employees were incompetent."
A much better way to phrase it would be: "Pay arrangements are still being discussed with the employees we dismissed, since they did not uphold their responsibilities." And that's just a sentence I came up with out of my ass. Think of what MoW could have spun if they had put some time into it.
I don't get one thing. As far as I know, Oliv's parents were responsible for the food. So, I assume they've worked there since the very beginning. If they failed to fulfill their duties, they should've been fired long time ago.
What we see here is either sheer incompetence of the "boss" or he's just trying to rip people off(or a mix of both). You don't go into GSL when u're bronze, u first grind 10.000 games and get to GM.
On December 30 2012 13:13 Tommyth wrote: I don't get one thing. As far as I know, Oliv's parents were responsible for the food. So, I assume they've worked there since the very beginning. If they failed to fulfill their duties, they should've been fired long time ago.
What we see here is either sheer incompetence of the "boss" or he's just trying to rip people off(or a mix of both). You don't go into GSL when u're bronze, u first grind 10.000 games and get to GM.
Everyone starts somewhere, and people learn different things from different mistakes. It's also considerably harder to let someone go if you'd hired them as a favor to someone else in the first place (I'm assuming the hiring of Oliv's parents was either a favor or just a thing of convenience). If my girlfriend's father asked me for a job and he sucked at it, it would be harder for me to get rid of him than to just deal with him sucking. If I'd previously hired my friend's brother and he sucked at his job, I'd have known to either not hire the father in the first place, or had experience in getting rid of someone that I'd need to deal with outside of work previously. Who's to say he's ever hired a friend of a friend before? Who's to say they didn't have great credentials and then end up flaking? There's plenty of other parts to the story that we will never know, and we don't need to assume that the MoW organization was a dick about it from the start.
And yeah, that's a better phrase to use, sure, but understand the cultural and language barriers and don't go ape shit over an accurate (albeit mean) way to say something is all I'm saying.
Everyone starts somewhere, and people learn different things from different mistakes. .
I agree, but so far it seems like this enterprise is too much for Him to handle. Again, there is nothing wrong with that, but failing at such a huge thing can be very costly. That's why people usually start with smaller tasks to gain experience, and then slowly move further. I of course hope that MoW will somehow get back on legs and build good reputation, as it will be beneficial for whole community.
On December 30 2012 05:38 True_Spike wrote: I do hope that they will finally invest in proper staff (people who are actually qualified for the job rather than just being friends with whoever is running the project).
If a manager hires someone because they're friends and the friend isn't qualified for the job, then why would the manager be qualified for their job? I just don't see how anyone can expect them to do a better job the next time without massive, internal retooling. The smoke is just what's visible from the outside, the fire on the inside is the problem.
On December 30 2012 05:38 True_Spike wrote: I do hope that they will finally invest in proper staff (people who are actually qualified for the job rather than just being friends with whoever is running the project).
If a manager hires someone because they're friends and the friend isn't qualified for the job, then why would the manager be qualified for their job? I just don't see how anyone can expect them to do a better job the next time without massive, internal retooling. The smoke is just what's visible from the outside, the fire on the inside is the problem.
Hiring a cook and a cleaner isn't some big thing where you've failed as a boss if you didn't hire people who were good. The question is whether the "smoke" you speak of is actually a big deal, or if it's just exaggerated drama. A cook and cleaner didn't get paid and desrow didn't like the food. The core of the project is the players who are satisfied, improving, and not moving out. There's a reason they're not moving out.
On December 30 2012 05:38 True_Spike wrote: I do hope that they will finally invest in proper staff (people who are actually qualified for the job rather than just being friends with whoever is running the project).
If a manager hires someone because they're friends and the friend isn't qualified for the job, then why would the manager be qualified for their job? I just don't see how anyone can expect them to do a better job the next time without massive, internal retooling. The smoke is just what's visible from the outside, the fire on the inside is the problem.
Hiring a cook and a cleaner isn't some big thing where you've failed as a boss if you didn't hire people who were good. The question is whether the "smoke" you speak of is actually a big deal, or if it's just exaggerated drama. A cook and cleaner didn't get paid and desrow didn't like the food. The core of the project is the players who are satisfied, improving, and not moving out. There's a reason they're not moving out.
No, the core of a company is the boss and management. The players are customers, and they've reported several dissatisfactions with that group (even the ones who are satisfied.) The product is still decent and the customers are satisfied for now but that's in part because MoW is alone in the market, and that doesn't mean the business can keep it up. If it turns out that this sort of thing is actually profitable, then someone else will do it and MoW will be left in the dust.
Maybe the boss actually does "get it" and they'll be able to turn the image and mistakes around, but it just seems unlikely unless you choose to have blind faith for the sake of ESPORTS, which a lot of people do tbh. I mean seriously, they don't have a website right now.
We have lost all files from the FTP server and we are trying to retrieve them from the hosting provider.
does not sound like a place with its ducks in a row.
On December 30 2012 05:38 True_Spike wrote: I do hope that they will finally invest in proper staff (people who are actually qualified for the job rather than just being friends with whoever is running the project).
If a manager hires someone because they're friends and the friend isn't qualified for the job, then why would the manager be qualified for their job? I just don't see how anyone can expect them to do a better job the next time without massive, internal retooling. The smoke is just what's visible from the outside, the fire on the inside is the problem.
Hiring a cook and a cleaner isn't some big thing where you've failed as a boss if you didn't hire people who were good. The question is whether the "smoke" you speak of is actually a big deal, or if it's just exaggerated drama. A cook and cleaner didn't get paid and desrow didn't like the food. The core of the project is the players who are satisfied, improving, and not moving out. There's a reason they're not moving out.
No, the core of a company is the boss and management. The players are customers, and they've reported several dissatisfactions with that group (even the ones who are satisfied.) The product is still decent and the customers are satisfied for now but that's in part because MoW is alone in the market, and that doesn't mean the business can keep it up. If it turns out that this sort of thing is actually profitable, then someone else will do it and MoW will be left in the dust.
Maybe the boss actually does "get it" and they'll be able to turn the image and mistakes around, but it just seems unlikely unless you choose to have blind faith for the sake of ESPORTS, which a lot of people do tbh. I mean seriously, they don't have a website right now.
My point was that the main focal point of the project is the players, and the relative success there pretty much makes the cook and cleaner and food minor issues. The mistakes are not so significant that we can conclude at this point the boss is bound to fail. Also, considering MoW just got a $1 million grant I don't see any competitor surpassing them for the foreseeable future. Even without the grant, it's not clear that a new project would necessarily be more appealing to players, again because the mistakes so far are not irreparable.
I'm also not sure how we can conclude that the website issue was within their control.
On December 30 2012 05:38 True_Spike wrote: I do hope that they will finally invest in proper staff (people who are actually qualified for the job rather than just being friends with whoever is running the project).
If a manager hires someone because they're friends and the friend isn't qualified for the job, then why would the manager be qualified for their job? I just don't see how anyone can expect them to do a better job the next time without massive, internal retooling. The smoke is just what's visible from the outside, the fire on the inside is the problem.
Hiring a cook and a cleaner isn't some big thing where you've failed as a boss if you didn't hire people who were good. The question is whether the "smoke" you speak of is actually a big deal, or if it's just exaggerated drama. A cook and cleaner didn't get paid and desrow didn't like the food. The core of the project is the players who are satisfied, improving, and not moving out. There's a reason they're not moving out.
No, the core of a company is the boss and management. The players are customers, and they've reported several dissatisfactions with that group (even the ones who are satisfied.) The product is still decent and the customers are satisfied for now but that's in part because MoW is alone in the market, and that doesn't mean the business can keep it up. If it turns out that this sort of thing is actually profitable, then someone else will do it and MoW will be left in the dust.
Maybe the boss actually does "get it" and they'll be able to turn the image and mistakes around, but it just seems unlikely unless you choose to have blind faith for the sake of ESPORTS, which a lot of people do tbh. I mean seriously, they don't have a website right now.
My point was that the main focal point of the project is the players, and the relative success there pretty much makes the cook and cleaner and food minor issues. The mistakes are not so significant that we can conclude at this point the boss is bound to fail. Also, considering MoW just got a $1 million grant I don't see any competitor surpassing them for the foreseeable future. Even without the grant, it's not clear that a new project would necessarily be more appealing to players, again because the mistakes so far are not irreparable.
I'm also not sure how we can conclude that the website issue was within their control.
One player who may or may not have received benefit from the house does not excuse the many, many mistakes they have made. It's very easy for you to say that "food and cleaning" are "minor" issues because I bet you get to eat more than once a day and have a semi-clean living space. The "it isn't so bad" is such a silly argument. You could say that about war torn African countries, or anything really, because things could always potentially be worse. And "it might not be their fault" is equally silly because that would have to add up to a lot of unfortunate incidents being decided by luck. Perhaps if you lived there you might realize that for how much you were paying, things could be a lot, lot better.
On December 30 2012 05:38 True_Spike wrote: I do hope that they will finally invest in proper staff (people who are actually qualified for the job rather than just being friends with whoever is running the project).
If a manager hires someone because they're friends and the friend isn't qualified for the job, then why would the manager be qualified for their job? I just don't see how anyone can expect them to do a better job the next time without massive, internal retooling. The smoke is just what's visible from the outside, the fire on the inside is the problem.
Hiring a cook and a cleaner isn't some big thing where you've failed as a boss if you didn't hire people who were good. The question is whether the "smoke" you speak of is actually a big deal, or if it's just exaggerated drama. A cook and cleaner didn't get paid and desrow didn't like the food. The core of the project is the players who are satisfied, improving, and not moving out. There's a reason they're not moving out.
No, the core of a company is the boss and management. The players are customers, and they've reported several dissatisfactions with that group (even the ones who are satisfied.) The product is still decent and the customers are satisfied for now but that's in part because MoW is alone in the market, and that doesn't mean the business can keep it up. If it turns out that this sort of thing is actually profitable, then someone else will do it and MoW will be left in the dust.
Maybe the boss actually does "get it" and they'll be able to turn the image and mistakes around, but it just seems unlikely unless you choose to have blind faith for the sake of ESPORTS, which a lot of people do tbh. I mean seriously, they don't have a website right now.
My point was that the main focal point of the project is the players, and the relative success there pretty much makes the cook and cleaner and food minor issues. The mistakes are not so significant that we can conclude at this point the boss is bound to fail. Also, considering MoW just got a $1 million grant I don't see any competitor surpassing them for the foreseeable future. Even without the grant, it's not clear that a new project would necessarily be more appealing to players, again because the mistakes so far are not irreparable.
I'm also not sure how we can conclude that the website issue was within their control.
How are the cook, cleaner and food minor issues if the players are the main focus point of the project? Looks more like "MoW Boss'" pockets are the main focus tbh... With a 1 million dollar grant you'd think they'd be able to take care of these "minor issues" as you call them.
As far as rumours go, Ministry of Win will cease to exist in its current shape and form. Details are scarce; Supposedly, they are planning to start a gaming-oriented internet TV station and use their real property as a staging ground for tournaments, interviews and such. Kropekkk (the shady esports figure behind MoW) also mentioned "Gamers LIVE" - my guess is that the "training facility" will stay as it is, but with a reality tv element to it. Nothing's set in stone at this point, I guess, but Puls Biznesu did mention "internet TV", "tournaments" and a "reality tv" project in its explanation of what the 4 million grant will actually be used for. One of the requirements for participation in the contest was having a global aspect, meaning the TV in question will probably be targeted at the foreign audiences.
MoW could learn a lot from EG...I think they call it management 101? SO many mistakes, so much that needed to be fixed a long time ago, but, you know, "trying"
I don't know the contracts or how business arrangements work in Poland, but in the Netherlands, if the contract is not fully satisfied, but not broken (say: deliver stuff, but some of it isn't working so it should go back) doesn't mean you just can't pay the person/company. You have to pay him and he has to make sure you get a working product. If not, then you sue him, not before he tries to fix it!
It seems anything business related in the SC2 scene is just amateur hour x1000.. if you can't keep disagreements internal and resolve them amicably, you've already screwed yourself.
I really, really do not like them. This whole press release just makes them feel shady as hell. Learn how to run a business before you do something like this that could hurt peoples careers. Idk IdrA said it all :D
On December 30 2012 17:48 DidYuhim wrote: That part where they're trying to make MoW look good because of Snute is just disgusting.
It was not about us, it was about mentality of the players. If someone wants to achieve a lot, he will - if someone comes here just to have decent holidays then noone can change it.
Why are there so many audaciously stupid posts in this thread? I get it, a lot of you have been told not to like MoW. That's fine, there are reasons to believe that it's a shady organization. But whining about page views and PDFs? Real?
And the guy laughing at the idea that some of the best players in the world were at MoW... when you're better than 99% of the players in the world, you're one of the best players in the world. MMA wouldn't come to MoW because he doesn't need to improve. But MMA is in the top 1% of the top 1%. Doesn't mean the other 99% of the top aren't at the top. Jesus.
Christ... Why even state "omg cant have team house in Poland, wowowo"... Just stop it kids. Probably the best idea in a long while. Sad with poor MANAGEMENT thou.
Even if they to try again with this peojectthey will have a hard time gaining peoples trust.
It's very simple to run a pro gaming house. In fact, its probably the simplest business known to man.
1. Find someone that can cook. Doesn't even have to be a good cook. Just someone that can cook. 2. Pay for internet and a reasonably large property. 3. Pay bills.
That's really all there is to it. Yes there are some minutiae (marketing and so on) but basically all you're doing is putting on a 24/7 LAN party. If people are really serious about pro gaming they will motivate themselves. After that it's just about scheduling practice sessions.
On December 30 2012 12:03 TyrionSC2 wrote: Ministry of Win failing to impress once again. This is really disappointing.
They are to provide practice ground for players that want to improve their gameplay, not to cater to random posters on some site..
Also this thread delivers. "Lets ban em from TL site!" "Don't open that link, you give em views!" "Snute improved there?! irrelevant, what matters is that some staff that worked there didn't got paid." E-sports shitmmunity at it's best.
MoW just can't seem to win (ironically). Whatever they do, the community is just hating on them...
As long as players are there, it can't be that awful, right? Why would players as Wilko and MorroW stay there if it was a bunch of idiots running the place?
They have probably fucked up once or twice but a lot is just "WE WANTZ MOAR DRAMA" from the community and trying to blow things out of proportion. Refusing to read their explanation just because you don't want to generate page views is one of the most stupid things I've heard..
well I just want they get it right. it doesn't matter if they had the best intention or not, the way they mess up time and time again is nothing but proofs that the management level is a huge failure and fail to correct themselves.
how can one put their faith onto a company that just refuse to fix all of its problem?
MoW needs to fix its root problem before it even goes anywhere else. getting more money and make it bigger won't solve any problem but creating even more in the future.
Meh, you think one fancy .pdf is gonna save your reputation? It's fucked within our community. Also lol at using a quote without stating who you quote and than saying part of it is wrong, there are these beautiful things (...) you can use to censor quotations to make sure they only state what you want them to state. I highly doubt any players will want to pay for a stay in your facility in the future, maybe snute can save you by winning some more..
On December 30 2012 12:03 TyrionSC2 wrote: Ministry of Win failing to impress once again. This is really disappointing.
They are to provide practice ground for players that want to improve their gameplay, not to cater to random posters on some site..
Also this thread delivers. "Lets ban em from TL site!" "Don't open that link, you give em views!" "Snute improved there?! irrelevant, what matters is that some staff that worked there didn't got paid." E-sports shitmmunity at it's best.
taking full credit for Snutes improvement! :D nice one. he left what? 5-6 months ago?? and recently won his big tournament ? hes been to korea ect after that. and from what i understand, snute was bigtime critical to how they ran MoW aswell
from what iv read and heard from MoW, the reason people go to live there is so they dont have to cook food/worry about irl stuff so they can practise 24/7. turns out, u have to worry about food/basic things that should be taken care off from staff, and when staff doesnt get paid, NOSHIT their not going to do their job. meaning it all falls back on their players. food situation was not fixxed the last time. just ask anyone that recently left the house-.-.
its hilarious how this scam is still allowed to continue.
if u want to know how people are treated in the house, PM Noticimus/targa/evaner/whoever has lived in the house in the past, they even gave threats to a 16 year old "noticimus" when he came out publicly saying what was wrong with the house ect during last drama thread. shit gets forgiven way to fast in this community...
On December 30 2012 05:15 SonKiE wrote: Why would you ever consider going to a pro GAMING house in POLAND?
User was warned for this post
And what country have to do with it ? You ignorant amercian kid
Someone's a little butthurt! :p He was kidding.
But seriously, MoW, people are willing to trust you if you don't fuck up every 2nd week. Try to make no big mistakes for a while and people will have more faith.
Fluffy press release and they blame everyone but themselves. They even insult oliv's parents by calling them "incompetent".
It really just sounds like they did not have their shit together. (at the very least this can be seen in thanking Destiny at the end of the press release)
On December 30 2012 05:15 SonKiE wrote: Why would you ever consider going to a pro GAMING house in POLAND?
User was warned for this post
And what country have to do with it ? You ignorant amercian kid
He got warned, few people already expressed their disapproval. Posting things like this is a proof that there might be some truth to what he said, and will surely encourage more people to post this type of bullshit, so please remain silent next time.
I don't get it.. I read through it, you're still not going to pay what you owe to illu and the girls' parents? You're still running a fraud business, but in your defense, you weren't satisfied with their job and you still claim success for MoW so far? It's laughable really.
if u want to know how people are treated in the house, PM Noticimus/targa/evaner/whoever has lived in the house in the past, they even gave threats to a 16 year old "noticimus" when he came out publicly saying what was wrong with the house ect during last drama thread. shit gets forgiven way to fast in this community...
Threats? If someone is saying that we wanted to borrow the money from him to pay electricity bills then I don't think that's just threats. That's what the company always should do if someone falsely accuses it in so nonsensical way. I don't need to add that he did not pay for his stay, same as KarmY - people who wanted to come back to the house several times and were for example applying for the coach position. I don't need to say that most of the bad words has been said after our refusal.
On December 30 2012 07:14 SupLilSon wrote: Don't hate for no reason, it's getting pretty old. Which players from MoW have improved/accomplished anything? To my knowledge Snute was staying at MoW and trained pretty exclusively on the Korean ladder. He's pretty much the only player I've heard from since training at that place. EGTL is winning matches in Pro League, what are the players training at MoW doing? Receding into obscurity for the most part. Again, all the curse and frathouse comments were old a year ago, get some new jokes that are actually relevant.
I find that very harsh of you The players who came to train here aren't worldclass, so of course they won't achieve anything near what EG or TL players achieved, but the players who came to MoW and actually put effort into training got a lot better and also showed good results. Of course there were also players who went to MoW to "have fun" and who didn't took it as a serious place for practise, but to mainly enjoy themselves with other players, but those weren't all of them. Targa got 3rd place at Dreamhack Sage won Acer Starcraft 2 Challenge Titan won WCS Russia and got 3rd place at RSL and he and livezerg beat several top koreans and top foreigners in clan tournaments And also many of the lesser skilled players showed a lot of improvement I wish the boss would have also done a better job to show those good moments in MoW, which there were plenty of, but nobody actually knows about them Why is it that if some bad stuff happens everyone tries to demonize everything and to destroy everything. I sacrificed everything i had to get the chance to make it in the eSports scene (some of you might think that doing that is dumb, but i don't regret it and i started from a very low point in my life too, so i didn't had anything to lose, but i knew exactly what i wanted to achieve). Even tho it wasn't optimal, i still liked it a lot so far and im thankful to MoW giving me this opportunity to follow my dream.
Unfortunately, what MoW is all about is taking guys who are deeply hoping they can develop into "pro gamers" and taking their money.
However, if i do attend the house and commit to some kind of practise schedule i will improve.
Therefore, MoW can cling to the fact that i went from the Platinum League to Masters league as evidence of their "quality system of improvement".
Maybe MoW can also set up a "Drum School" so i can attend and pursue my dream of becoming the next John Bonham.
oliv got payed, her parents did not (something to do with incompetence and their contract being terminated)
they probably didn't cut the crusts off of their daily sandwiches!
Dont use adobe reader then? it's like telling them not to post anything online because internet explorer is buggy. No one forced you to use the worst pdf reader on the market, it was your own decision.
On December 30 2012 07:19 FXOBoSs wrote: - Ministry of win gets a grant because its ALREADY paying dividends (profit to investors) - Ministry of win can't pay staff.
Sorry bro's but your business is fucked.
Sadly its starting to be rather common in Poland nowadays...
I just get the vibe that MOW is trying their best, but just run by what seems to me inexperienced people. That coupled with the fact that gamers are as well inexperienced in business and living away from home it's just not a good mix.
On December 30 2012 07:14 SupLilSon wrote: Don't hate for no reason, it's getting pretty old. Which players from MoW have improved/accomplished anything? To my knowledge Snute was staying at MoW and trained pretty exclusively on the Korean ladder. He's pretty much the only player I've heard from since training at that place. EGTL is winning matches in Pro League, what are the players training at MoW doing? Receding into obscurity for the most part. Again, all the curse and frathouse comments were old a year ago, get some new jokes that are actually relevant.
I find that very harsh of you The players who came to train here aren't worldclass, so of course they won't achieve anything near what EG or TL players achieved, but the players who came to MoW and actually put effort into training got a lot better and also showed good results. Of course there were also players who went to MoW to "have fun" and who didn't took it as a serious place for practise, but to mainly enjoy themselves with other players, but those weren't all of them. Targa got 3rd place at Dreamhack Sage won Acer Starcraft 2 Challenge Titan won WCS Russia and got 3rd place at RSL and he and livezerg beat several top koreans and top foreigners in clan tournaments And also many of the lesser skilled players showed a lot of improvement I wish the boss would have also done a better job to show those good moments in MoW, which there were plenty of, but nobody actually knows about them Why is it that if some bad stuff happens everyone tries to demonize everything and to destroy everything. I sacrificed everything i had to get the chance to make it in the eSports scene (some of you might think that doing that is dumb, but i don't regret it and i started from a very low point in my life too, so i didn't had anything to lose, but i knew exactly what i wanted to achieve). Even tho it wasn't optimal, i still liked it a lot so far and im thankful to MoW giving me this opportunity to follow my dream.
Unfortunately, what MoW is all about is taking guys who are deeply hoping they can develop into "pro gamers" and taking their money.
However, if i do attend the house and commit to some kind of practise schedule i will improve.
Therefore, MoW can cling to the fact that i went from the Platinum League to Masters league as evidence of their "quality system of improvement".
Maybe MoW can also set up a "Drum School" so i can attend and pursue my dream of becoming the next John Bonham.
On December 31 2012 02:38 Aulox wrote: I think it's about time we all just let them burn. I mean, there's no reason why we should trust them.
Your signature "esports FTW" is actually hilarious given your post. You advocate the mob getting involved in esports business's affairs and declaring judgment based on forum posts. A gaming house where players are satisfied and not moving out deserved to be banished from the community. For heaven's sake, a cook and cleaner didn't get paid and desrow didn't like his food! These are unforgivable sins? Not really...be a little more reasonable please.
On December 30 2012 21:26 NVRLand wrote: MoW just can't seem to win (ironically). Whatever they do, the community is just hating on them...
As long as players are there, it can't be that awful, right? Why would players as Wilko and MorroW stay there if it was a bunch of idiots running the place?
They have probably fucked up once or twice but a lot is just "WE WANTZ MOAR DRAMA" from the community and trying to blow things out of proportion. Refusing to read their explanation just because you don't want to generate page views is one of the most stupid things I've heard..
Ministry of Win have to improve. All this talk about drama but in the end its always "Wednesday afternoon drama", nothing shocking nothing big. Its filler drama between bigger dramas.
If they want to have success in esport, they should think about investing way more resources and upgrade their drama to a more competitive level.
On December 31 2012 02:38 Aulox wrote: I think it's about time we all just let them burn. I mean, there's no reason why we should trust them.
Your signature "esports FTW" is actually hilarious given your post. You advocate the mob getting involved in esports business's affairs and declaring judgment based on forum posts. A gaming house where players are satisfied and not moving out deserved to be banished from the community. For heaven's sake, a cook and cleaner didn't get paid and desrow didn't like his food! These are unforgivable sins? Not really...be a little more reasonable please.
Why are you so adamantly defending MoW? After trying to destroy Mista's progaming career you've got a change of heart and now you defend the downtrodden of E-sports? Big change of heart bro. MoW has had multiple instances of drama and chances to rectify its position but they can't seem to pull it together as a professional organization. In fact, I'm pretty sure there is no organization, just one guy renting out rooms as it seems MoW doesn't offer much beyond that. If just once they could have released a statement that wasn't riddled with grammatical errors I'd go back on everything I said. But no, proofreading your own writing is too much to expect from a professional business. If you actually care about "Esports" youd want to see scams like this shutdown.
On December 31 2012 02:38 Aulox wrote: I think it's about time we all just let them burn. I mean, there's no reason why we should trust them.
Your signature "esports FTW" is actually hilarious given your post. You advocate the mob getting involved in esports business's affairs and declaring judgment based on forum posts. A gaming house where players are satisfied and not moving out deserved to be banished from the community. For heaven's sake, a cook and cleaner didn't get paid and desrow didn't like his food! These are unforgivable sins? Not really...be a little more reasonable please.
Why are you so adamantly defending MoW? After trying to destroy Mista's progaming career you've got a change of heart and now you defend the downtrodden of E-sports? Big change of heart bro. MoW has had multiple instances of drama and chances to rectify its position but they can't seem to pull it together as a professional organization. In fact, I'm pretty sure there is no organization, just one guy renting out rooms as it seems MoW doesn't offer much beyond that. If just once they could have released a statement that wasn't riddled with grammatical errors I'd go back on everything I said. But no, proofreading your own writing is too much to expect from a professional business. If you actually care about "Esports" youd want to see scams like this shutdown.
Lol I still believe Mista was hacking, although that's irrelevant here, the point is that I only go after actual problems. In almost every drama thread I've pretty much railed against the drama queens, which is abundantly clear in my post history. You've still cited nothing more than a cook and cleaner not getting paid, desrow not liking his food, and them using a non-native English speaker to write press releases. That amounts to a "scam" in your eyes? There are reputable players who are satisfied, improving, and not moving out. You're being overdramatic.
On December 31 2012 02:38 Aulox wrote: I think it's about time we all just let them burn. I mean, there's no reason why we should trust them.
Your signature "esports FTW" is actually hilarious given your post. You advocate the mob getting involved in esports business's affairs and declaring judgment based on forum posts. A gaming house where players are satisfied and not moving out deserved to be banished from the community. For heaven's sake, a cook and cleaner didn't get paid and desrow didn't like his food! These are unforgivable sins? Not really...be a little more reasonable please.
Why are you so adamantly defending MoW? After trying to destroy Mista's progaming career you've got a change of heart and now you defend the downtrodden of E-sports? Big change of heart bro. MoW has had multiple instances of drama and chances to rectify its position but they can't seem to pull it together as a professional organization. In fact, I'm pretty sure there is no organization, just one guy renting out rooms as it seems MoW doesn't offer much beyond that. If just once they could have released a statement that wasn't riddled with grammatical errors I'd go back on everything I said. But no, proofreading your own writing is too much to expect from a professional business. If you actually care about "Esports" youd want to see scams like this shutdown.
Lol I still believe Mista was hacking, although that's irrelevant here, the point is that I only go after actual problems. In almost every drama thread I've pretty much railed against the drama queens, which is abundantly clear in my post history. You've still cited nothing more than a cook and cleaner not getting paid, desrow not liking his food, and them using a non-native English speaker to write press releases. That amounts to a "scam" in your eyes? There are reputable players who are satisfied, improving, and not moving out. You're being overdramatic.
Do you realize how amateurish MoW looks in comparison to even your run-of-the-mill small, independently owned business? MoW is a sure-fire way to turn any level-headed investors away from the SC2 scene. If they can't take care of these problems with a 1,000,000 dollar grant then there's nothing else to conclude except they are a scam.
If you want SC2 to keep falling farther behind other esports titles, just keep supporting these guys tbh.
On December 30 2012 21:26 NVRLand wrote: MoW just can't seem to win (ironically). Whatever they do, the community is just hating on them...
As long as players are there, it can't be that awful, right? Why would players as Wilko and MorroW stay there if it was a bunch of idiots running the place?
They have probably fucked up once or twice but a lot is just "WE WANTZ MOAR DRAMA" from the community and trying to blow things out of proportion. Refusing to read their explanation just because you don't want to generate page views is one of the most stupid things I've heard..
This is all just my opinion tho :D
The problem is they have a bad reputation. Once you have that you better do everything perfect since people will be very critical off you. Blaming someone else for part of the issues is not a good idea since guess what, people simply don't trust you anymore.
On December 31 2012 02:38 Aulox wrote: I think it's about time we all just let them burn. I mean, there's no reason why we should trust them.
Your signature "esports FTW" is actually hilarious given your post. You advocate the mob getting involved in esports business's affairs and declaring judgment based on forum posts. A gaming house where players are satisfied and not moving out deserved to be banished from the community. For heaven's sake, a cook and cleaner didn't get paid and desrow didn't like his food! These are unforgivable sins? Not really...be a little more reasonable please.
Why are you so adamantly defending MoW? After trying to destroy Mista's progaming career you've got a change of heart and now you defend the downtrodden of E-sports? Big change of heart bro. MoW has had multiple instances of drama and chances to rectify its position but they can't seem to pull it together as a professional organization. In fact, I'm pretty sure there is no organization, just one guy renting out rooms as it seems MoW doesn't offer much beyond that. If just once they could have released a statement that wasn't riddled with grammatical errors I'd go back on everything I said. But no, proofreading your own writing is too much to expect from a professional business. If you actually care about "Esports" youd want to see scams like this shutdown.
Lol I still believe Mista was hacking, although that's irrelevant here, the point is that I only go after actual problems. In almost every drama thread I've pretty much railed against the drama queens, which is abundantly clear in my post history. You've still cited nothing more than a cook and cleaner not getting paid, desrow not liking his food, and them using a non-native English speaker to write press releases. That amounts to a "scam" in your eyes? There are reputable players who are satisfied, improving, and not moving out. You're being overdramatic.
And you are ignoring our points. "Things can always be worse" and "it isnt such a big deal" is a laughable defense. Also no one cares about your mista opinions.
Hi. I know one of the guys on the thank you list, one of the guys who went to MoW. He left because food was bad. But he is better at SC2 in every way than he was before. Nonetheless he left early because living conditions were pretty poor, that was before the food thing was dealt with however. So my friend paid some money to go to a house in Poland with some really cool pro and semi-pro gamers, and got better at SC2. Then he left. I don't get how MoW is understood as a scam organization? It met its client objectives. Employee satisfaction: they're firing people because the clients complain. The crowd complains when the employee satisfaction is low for some reason, then this shit.
I don't see why people are so mad about this; most people who're mad about MoW didn't go, know exactly what it was like, never did anything significant for e-sports anyways, knows what's wrong with mow, just expects top-tier quality in everything e-sports because "it's what it needs" and doesn't provide solutions, explicitly say what's wrong, how to improve, so on. Shit, at least MoW has a Q&A.
Reading thread like this makes me really sad. It shows how stupid most of the people are, and how easy is to manipulate with their minds. Someone said some bad words about MoW and now everything they do is wrong, and every single negative opinion of some unknown people must be 100% true... yea right.
MoW you're doing really fine, and I hope all those idiots won't ruin your effort. We need more projects like that.
ps. PDF is more official than simple HTML, so please shut up guys, it's the way to do it.
This thread reminds me of typical school bullies gang-banging - when someone is down, they take bloody turns to kick them until their hearts are content and their victim is totally down. And others jump on bandwagon, just to be cool.
Sure, MoW did mistakes, but how many people need to kick and hate the hell out of them, in order to stop this hate parade and perhaps try and post something constructive for a change? Kudos to people like iNcontroL who at least tried to bring something positive and constructive to the table. I personally, even though I have my doubts about MoW atm, still hope they can do amazing things for this community once all this drama is all over and the MoW will really work hard on redeeming themselves in the eyes of the community.
PDF doesn't explain everything, and doesn't address too much, but I can see their PoV and I can put some trust in what they said. They've been unprofessional in the past and are probably still a bit, so I'll be vigilant.
On December 31 2012 07:05 BabyToss! wrote: This thread reminds me of typical school bullies gang-banging - when someone is down, they take bloody turns to kick them until their hearts are content and their victim is totally down. And others jump on bandwagon, just to be cool.
Come on, that comparison is flat out wrong. People didn't start disliking for no reason you know. MoW had a lot of bad press, next thing you gonne say that the people getting bullied on school asked for it somehow.
On December 31 2012 08:18 Assirra wrote: Come on, that comparison is flat out wrong. People didn't start disliking for no reason you know. MoW had a lot of bad press, next thing you gonne say that the people getting bullied on school asked for it somehow.
Well, it's simply wrong to continue kicking someone who's already been kicked so many times and is down as it is. Call me stupid/naive, but I always preferred to help people up, rather than to kick them more.
On December 31 2012 08:18 Assirra wrote: Come on, that comparison is flat out wrong. People didn't start disliking for no reason you know. MoW had a lot of bad press, next thing you gonne say that the people getting bullied on school asked for it somehow.
Well, it's simply wrong to continue kicking someone who's already been kicked so many times and is down as it is. Call me stupid/naive, but I always preferred to help people up, rather than to kick them more.
And this mentality is why nobody takes esports seriously
On December 31 2012 08:26 MangoMountain wrote: And this mentality is why nobody takes esports seriously
Yeah, sure, let's hate the hell out of those, who make mistakes, rather than to come up with something constructive ourselves. Seems legit to me. That'll help eSports soooo much. ^_^
Warsaw, Poland – December 29, 2012 – In response to latest allegations regarding Ministry of Win, we declare as follows:
For some reason, on multiple forums (mainly TeamLiquid.net) an information appeared stating that we have not paid Oliv (Artist) and her parents, who were responsible for cooking and cleaning the house. We want to say that Oliv has received her salary, however, the "situation" with Oliv's parents is more complicated, as it revolves around their incompetence, which led to their contract being terminated. We took such steps after numerous discussions we had with them regarding the quality of their work. We tried to implement some changes, but they rejected them, which led to community's negative opinion on Ministry of Win’s food situation. After we changed MoW's house staff everything seems to be working just fine and players haven't complained about the food quality since then. Regarding Kevin Vandini, known as Illu - he has not meet any requirements, which he agreed upon when he came to Poland. He failed to recruit players during his two month period as our Recruitment Manager. Notwithstanding, Kevin did an amazing job during Battle at Ministry of Win: get outPlayed, for which he will get paid. Unfortunately, we have a delay with paying out the salaries for which we are very sorry. We promise that it will not happen in the future. Regarding this statement: "Yeah, this is a very good point, when you're there he treats you kinda like an employee with some of the things he does, it's extremely annoying, one example is he made it mandatory to be awake for breakfast, which is fair enough however some players prefer playing later than others or had to stay awake late to play qualifiers and tournaments and such, after a few people woke up late and skipped breakfast (It was horrible anyway) he tried to start a new rule that he's locking the gaming room at 11pm or something like that so we were forced to go to sleep, he did this by putting up signs on the doors rather than just telling us. OH! also he sometimes would make you miss the only hot meal of the day if you woke up late as punishment, these are just a few examples of the type of person the "boss" is."
Some of this happened. A great example of dedicated player following the training schedule is Snute. He was one of the most hard-working players in our facility, who after leaving the house began winning events. We are very happy for Snute and we are glad that we could help him out even a little bit. We also never punished anyone for waking up too late; it is a lie. What we had was a meal schedule, which was also a part of their contract and their training schedule that they received upon arriving to the house. Seven months have passed since May 21st. Despite initial problems I personally feel that we did fine. Our house existed not only because of our hard-working staff, but also thanks to you guys, the community, which we appreciate and thank for the comments. During the last few months there were a lot of bad, hurting words said about the Ministry of Win and someone has to take the responsibility for all those misunderstandings and it will be us. On the other hand, we would like you to draw conclusions as well. Not everything bad that was said about our project was true; think about it in the future. We were hurt by many of your opinions simply because we spent many months working on this project, and we did all of this for the gamers, but that does not matter as we did all of this, because we love eSports. The numbers are not the most important part of it, but take a quick look on that: - 25 players from all around the world visited MoW with one goal in mind - to get better - We had 15 different people working at the Ministry of Win - MoW exists for over 7 months now. In that time we were visited by the world class Starcraft II players - Together with outPlayed we hosted a tournament - Battle at Ministry of Win: get outPlayed with a prize pool of $5,000 and around 5000 concurrent viewers - Our website had 109,515 unique visitors, 29,06% of whom were from Poland. The USA got the second place with 19,92%, and last but not least Germany with 7,48%
We try to provide the best possible environment for players to train and practice. During the first few months we managed to do that and most of the gamers who left our house were happy and satisfied. We have learned a lot, from mistakes, from players, from running the business like this one and we are going to take the essence of everything that was the best over here and use all of that in the nearest future, with new and redefined Ministry of Win. What is going to happen? We will keep you updated.
The website is going to be back online, however, there is no ETA yet. We have lost all the files from the FTP Server and we are trying to retrieve them from the hosting provider.
For now we can only say that we know that there are no possible mistakes in the future again. To those that put a lot of trust in us – thank you. For those that do not believe in us anymore – we will try even harder to impress you.
And the last thing: Breathe, Fuzer, Snute, Cytoplasm, Targa, LiveZerg, TitaN, Ret, Nimitz, KarmY, Noticimus, Sovlet, Kamacho, CryptiC, Wilko, Hispid, desRow, MorroW, SonG, Resq, UkraineStar, Evaner, Sage, Fraer, SjoW, Destiny and the community - thank you! There would be no Ministry of Win without you.
On December 30 2012 21:26 NVRLand wrote: MoW just can't seem to win (ironically). Whatever they do, the community is just hating on them...
As long as players are there, it can't be that awful, right? Why would players as Wilko and MorroW stay there if it was a bunch of idiots running the place?
They have probably fucked up once or twice but a lot is just "WE WANTZ MOAR DRAMA" from the community and trying to blow things out of proportion. Refusing to read their explanation just because you don't want to generate page views is one of the most stupid things I've heard..
This is all just my opinion tho :D
They're scamming their former employees. It doesn't really matter if it's a dream-come-true for the people there (which it obviously isn't with all the complaints and the Fuzer-scam-attempt), when your business-model is built on fraud, you deserve all the hate in the world.
On December 31 2012 07:13 revel8 wrote: Snute said MoW was alright and a thing that should be supported. That is good enough for me.
While I appreciate that you value my integrity I would also like to point out that I left the house eventually and that I don't know anything about how it was run when I was not there. So I don't really want to be brought in as an example or source when all of these discussions/drama things pop up I think it's worth listening to those that are staying there when it comes to the present situation(s). Wilko if you are reading this go practice lol. (and drink green tea)
I would also like to point out that the reason I was able to profit from the house is because I'm a hard working individual, I was surprised to see that there were problems with the food and the past "family" as they imo did a good job when it came to cleaning and food. I enjoyed the meals and couldn't finish my plate, clothes cleaned twice a week and put up with clothes hanger nice n tidy. So chill. But things change, I wasn't there, I don't know.
Hmm. It may have sounded flippant, but I actually was serious about impressions on Microsoft Word 2013 Preview (from a business standpoint) from MoW.
And I still think that the press release (in PDF form, no issue - lots of Press Releases are done that way, makes it easier to email them to media outlets. Not sure if I'd use TL forums and "media outlet" in the same sentence though. Yes it is, and no it isn't; not in the traditional sense at least) is slightly fluffy - there's a lot of previous accomplishments, some explanation but no real firm statement or rebuttal beyond potential lack of deliverables from contractors. It's got some information, but I think you could've done more at the end to clearly state an intent of how to resolve conflicts with your previous contractors (while avoiding legal pitfalls) as well as what concrete steps you plan to take in the future to ensure that these issues are dealt with and prevented from reoccurring. (Or possibly a process to address complaints quickly and decisively.)
I think your concept is sound, but you seem to need better support and administration. (The FTP thing seriously makes me wonder - I've seen that happen in a small entertainment business (outside of eSports) and it was largely due to a lack of proper business management in the owner.) You may have business skills yourself, but you really need to put together a professional staff to address the things that no one man can handle alone.
On December 30 2012 05:15 SonKiE wrote: Why would you ever consider going to a pro GAMING house in POLAND?
or even in the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?
cause those are team houses
You mean frat houses?
@topic Weird to make a topic about this subject and post a link to a PDF. Sure some of the big boys do that but when you try to act like them it comes out like the taco you ate last night. Some people have been hurt and goes on a tantrum, community explodes because OFC THEY KNEW a pro gaming house in Poland couldn't actually work!
Oh wait it did. With better results than most pro team houses, or frat houses.
Don't hate for no reason, it's getting pretty old. Which players from MoW have improved/accomplished anything? To my knowledge Snute was staying at MoW and trained pretty exclusively on the Korean ladder. He's pretty much the only player I've heard from since training at that place. EGTL is winning matches in Pro League, what are the players training at MoW doing? Receding into obscurity for the most part. Again, all the curse and frathouse comments were old a year ago, get some new jokes that are actually relevant.
TargA's been getting some results since he stayed there.
TargA was posting results playing with a tethered mobile phone playing to the states from Australia.
On December 31 2012 08:18 Assirra wrote: Come on, that comparison is flat out wrong. People didn't start disliking for no reason you know. MoW had a lot of bad press, next thing you gonne say that the people getting bullied on school asked for it somehow.
Well, it's simply wrong to continue kicking someone who's already been kicked so many times and is down as it is. Call me stupid/naive, but I always preferred to help people up, rather than to kick them more.
On December 31 2012 02:38 Aulox wrote: I think it's about time we all just let them burn. I mean, there's no reason why we should trust them.
Your signature "esports FTW" is actually hilarious given your post. You advocate the mob getting involved in esports business's affairs and declaring judgment based on forum posts. A gaming house where players are satisfied and not moving out deserved to be banished from the community. For heaven's sake, a cook and cleaner didn't get paid and desrow didn't like his food! These are unforgivable sins? Not really...be a little more reasonable please.
Why are you so adamantly defending MoW? After trying to destroy Mista's progaming career you've got a change of heart and now you defend the downtrodden of E-sports? Big change of heart bro. MoW has had multiple instances of drama and chances to rectify its position but they can't seem to pull it together as a professional organization. In fact, I'm pretty sure there is no organization, just one guy renting out rooms as it seems MoW doesn't offer much beyond that. If just once they could have released a statement that wasn't riddled with grammatical errors I'd go back on everything I said. But no, proofreading your own writing is too much to expect from a professional business. If you actually care about "Esports" youd want to see scams like this shutdown.
Lol I still believe Mista was hacking, although that's irrelevant here, the point is that I only go after actual problems. In almost every drama thread I've pretty much railed against the drama queens, which is abundantly clear in my post history. You've still cited nothing more than a cook and cleaner not getting paid, desrow not liking his food, and them using a non-native English speaker to write press releases. That amounts to a "scam" in your eyes? There are reputable players who are satisfied, improving, and not moving out. You're being overdramatic.
And you are ignoring our points. "Things can always be worse" and "it isnt such a big deal" is a laughable defense. Also no one cares about your mista opinions.
Your points? There are very little specifics offered by the people hating on MoW. Everyone is just referring to them being "shady" and a "scam" without actually saying why. The employees who didn't get paid? It's apparently common in Poland for there to be employment contracts where payment is conditional. Food was bad? We don't know whether that should be blamed on the cook or the boss because we don't have enough information. Still waiting on someone to provide good reasoning as to why MoW should be banished rather than us giving them another chance (not that the community hating them or not has any consequence, considering they got a $1 million grant and they have players who are satisfied lol).
he idea of a scheduled, training facility that encourages streaming and improving is amazing.
From what came out of that place, this was the only part they seem to have ever managed to 'get'. The general idea that having people pay you to essentially house and train them, isn't a bad idea. Done properly with the proper amount of initial investment MoW could have likely been a win-fall for the house owners and the players.
With that said, at this point the people running the place just seem way way to green (business wise) to make it work. Should they revamp and relaunch, 'possibly' they can get it right in version 2.0, but at the same time based on what I've seen I wouldn't hold my breathe.
TLDR: Great idea, but as far as I can tell the people running this don't have the proper strategy/know how to make it successful. The only way it'll probably ever work is if they were willing or for that matter able to bring other people in to fix / show them how to not make the same errors.
On December 31 2012 02:38 Aulox wrote: I think it's about time we all just let them burn. I mean, there's no reason why we should trust them.
Your signature "esports FTW" is actually hilarious given your post. You advocate the mob getting involved in esports business's affairs and declaring judgment based on forum posts. A gaming house where players are satisfied and not moving out deserved to be banished from the community. For heaven's sake, a cook and cleaner didn't get paid and desrow didn't like his food! These are unforgivable sins? Not really...be a little more reasonable please.
Why are you so adamantly defending MoW? After trying to destroy Mista's progaming career you've got a change of heart and now you defend the downtrodden of E-sports? Big change of heart bro. MoW has had multiple instances of drama and chances to rectify its position but they can't seem to pull it together as a professional organization. In fact, I'm pretty sure there is no organization, just one guy renting out rooms as it seems MoW doesn't offer much beyond that. If just once they could have released a statement that wasn't riddled with grammatical errors I'd go back on everything I said. But no, proofreading your own writing is too much to expect from a professional business. If you actually care about "Esports" youd want to see scams like this shutdown.
Lol I still believe Mista was hacking, although that's irrelevant here, the point is that I only go after actual problems. In almost every drama thread I've pretty much railed against the drama queens, which is abundantly clear in my post history. You've still cited nothing more than a cook and cleaner not getting paid, desrow not liking his food, and them using a non-native English speaker to write press releases. That amounts to a "scam" in your eyes? There are reputable players who are satisfied, improving, and not moving out. You're being overdramatic.
And you are ignoring our points. "Things can always be worse" and "it isnt such a big deal" is a laughable defense. Also no one cares about your mista opinions.
Your points? There are very little specifics offered by the people hating on MoW. Everyone is just referring to them being "shady" and a "scam" without actually saying why. The employees who didn't get paid? It's apparently common in Poland for there to be employment contracts where payment is conditional. Food was bad? We don't know whether that should be blamed on the cook or the boss because we don't have enough information. Still waiting on someone to provide good reasoning as to why MoW should be banished rather than us giving them another chance (not that the community hating them or not has any consequence, considering they got a $1 million grant and they have players who are satisfied lol).
On December 30 2012 07:45 Bippzy wrote: Honestly i am impressed. As far as chess analogies go, mow is disadvantaged according to theory, but they are no means out from the game. They said they didnt pay employees thatdidnt do work(good) and their payment is delayed(esports standard). They denied allegations about the manager being really lame and then refocused on their goal and relative success.
In order to refute this, you have to get the parents to deny their failure to work and get players to go at odds with MOW that they are liars. Otherwise, as long as players are still in the house and mow has such good pr, ill assume the house is decent for its purpose and progamers gossip so im sure its nottoo bad.
On December 31 2012 09:18 Snute wrote: I think it's worth listening to those that are staying there when it comes to the present situation(s). Wilko if you are reading this go practice lol. (and drink green tea)
I would also like to point out that the reason I was able to profit from the house is because I'm a hard working individual, I was surprised to see that there were problems with the food and the past "family" as they imo did a good job when it came to cleaning and food. I enjoyed the meals and couldn't finish my plate, clothes cleaned twice a week and put up with clothes hanger nice n tidy. So chill. But things change, I wasn't there, I don't know.
Good luck, do your best everyone.
I let myself get affected by this stuff too much i guess But i'm practicing a lot and i try to live more healthy, which helps me being able to practice even more ^^ I hope i will be able to catch up eventually and we will meet on some HotS Event again
EPT
