EPTAPM/mechanics vs strategy - Page 7
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Cel.erity
United States4890 Posts
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thezanursic
5485 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Yeah... It's BW Strategy driven game: + Show Spoiler + Mechanics driven game: I picked these two out of a plethora of unique and interesting games. The strategy driven game that I've posted above displays the fact that with good strategic thinking (and of course mechanics) you can make almost any unit in BW work. A good example is Forgg versus Kal where Kal uses Scouts *Fucking Scouts* viably to defend a 2 fact from Forgg on Colosseum after a 12 nexx. Showing that scouts could actually be used to defend a 2 fact on a map with long rush distances if you are going 12 nexx into 2 base carrier! (Who knew o.O?) And here is the thing he probably practiced using scouts in that situation it wasn't just a spur of the momment thing. These kinds of things are what sets apart SC2 from BW. + Show Spoiler + Ohh and if you don't understand how that worked. With scouts Kal forced Goliaths and the siege tank numbers were lower he basically couldn't use the Starport for anything else so that was his best option. It's a lot more complicated than this, but that's the just of it. There are a lot more examples of unique things working in unique situations and a sea of games where mechanics shone. Of course both are necessary to win a game of the lovely lovely game that we call BW, but often times one seems more apparent than the other! Note: I love SC2 and I want it improved for instance I really loved the TvZ match up in summer 2011, but that kinda devolved to something I don't like as much in early 2012 after some silly buffs and nerfs. MMA vs DRG Blizzard cup finals, anyone! Ohh and I hope that people actually take the time to read my spoiler because understanding what I have to say will help people understand what direction we need to push Blizzard towards to make the final product of SC2 amazing as fuck we have taken a couple of wrong turns in the last few months, but all that can be fixed with the communities dedication and actually understanding the problems that we face on the road of improving Starcraft 2 as a whole! | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On December 30 2012 23:34 thezanursic wrote: Here is the thing SC2 has both I do know a game that puts EVEN more emphasis on that + Show Spoiler + Yeah... It's BW Strategy driven game: + Show Spoiler + 4 parts (Both players display a good understand of the game and deep strategic thinking) Mechanics driven game: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuS-_rFnQR8 I picked these two out of a plethora of unique and interesting games. The strategy driven game that I've posted above displays the fact that with good strategic thinking (and of course mechanics) you can make almost any unit in BW work. A good example is Forgg versus Kal where Kal uses Scouts *Fucking Scouts* viably to defend a 2 fact from Forgg on Colosseum after a 12 nexx. Showing that scouts could actually be used to defend a 2 fact on a map with long rush distances if you are going 12 nexx into 2 base carrier! (Who knew o.O?) And here is the thing he probably practiced using scouts in that situation it wasn't just a spur of the momment thing. These kinds of things are what sets apart SC2 from BW. + Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XM7TZvLEqLg http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDUd4MzXRBI Ohh and if you don't understand how that worked. With scouts Kal forced Goliaths and the siege tank numbers were lower he basically couldn't use the Starport for anything else so that was his best option. It's a lot more complicated than this, but that's the just of it. There are a lot more examples of unique things working in unique situations and a sea of games where mechanics shone. Of course both are necessary to win a game of the lovely lovely game that we call BW, but often times one seems more apparent than the other! Note: I love SC2 and I want it improved for instance I really loved the TvZ match up in summer 2011, but that kinda devolved to something I don't like as much in early 2012 after some silly buffs and nerfs. MMA vs DRG Blizzard cup finals, anyone! Ohh and I hope that people actually take the time to read my spoiler because understanding what I have to say will help people understand what direction we need to push Blizzard towards to make the final product of SC2 amazing as fuck we have taken a couple of wrong turns in the last few months, but all that can be fixed with the communities dedication and actually understanding the problems that we face on the road of improving Starcraft 2 as a whole! lol. scouts. | ||
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thezanursic
5485 Posts
On December 30 2012 23:43 Targe wrote: I prefer mechanics orientated players (MarineKing) yet the game should not be defined by the mechanics, the mechanics should be sufficiently hard that different strategies can be created through unique uses of units that aren't available to the average player, I saw Bisu's templar build and reavers mentioned earlier in the thread and these are great examples. lol. scouts. I know hahaha when I saw that game for the first time I was so impressed and inspired, hahahah!!! There were a few more progames with scouts (Show boating) in the 14 years life span of professional BW with scouts, but this is the only game that I've seen where scouts were used viably to do something. Well there was a game with Kolll vs Stork where Stork 3 gate goon scout all-inned him. I might be a protoss, but I felt so bad for the german zerg, ever since then I have despised Stork and his awful ways (He also all-inned in the first game I believe...) If I missed a game where scouts are used viably go ahead and PM me or just quote and respond. | ||
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Targe
United Kingdom14103 Posts
On December 30 2012 23:51 thezanursic wrote: I know hahaha when I saw that game for the first time I was so impressed and inspired, hahahah!!! There were a few more progames with scouts (Show boating) in the 14 years life span of professional BW with scouts, but this is the only game that I've seen where scouts were used viably to do something. Well there was a game with Kolll vs Stork where Stork 3 gate goon scout all-inned him. I might be a protoss, but I felt so bad for the german zerg, ever since then I have despised Stork and his awful ways (He also all-inned in the first game I believe...) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NqTkBAb3a0 If I missed a game where scouts are used viably go ahead and PM me or just quote and respond. Only time I've ever seen scouts is vs Ai ^^ I agree with what you say about TvZ match up though, I enjoyed playing an watching TvZ a few months ago, easily my favourite match up. Now however I find zeros afraid to leave the investor. Had a game late last night where I ended up winning because he greedily got a third and fourth on very little lings then went straight to infestors. (you have no idea how long it took to write infestors, auto correct was determined to write investors) | ||
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thezanursic
5485 Posts
On December 31 2012 00:25 Targe wrote: Only time I've ever seen scouts is vs Ai ^^ I agree with what you say about TvZ match up though, I enjoyed playing an watching TvZ a few months ago, easily my favourite match up. Now however I find zeros afraid to leave the investor. Had a game late last night where I ended up winning because he greedily got a third and fourth on very little lings then went straight to infestors. (you have no idea how long it took to write infestors, auto correct was determined to write investors) On phone? I loved playing TvZ in 2011 I just loved it I could play TvZ a day straight, but Blizzard killed it to *balance it* when in fact it was almost perfectly balanced... | ||
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thezanursic
5485 Posts
And that's actually more balanced than TvZ in BW... Soo we had an amazing match up... it was fun... it was balanced... and Blizzard ruined it... ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nlIiD.png) Stolen from Lalush.Well it's not to late it could be done and it can be done again. I really hope that Blizzard fixes their mistake and we get a TvZ that is similar to a the 2011 TvZ and of course improve the other match ups. I think it's really important for the community to be very vocal about our complaints even more so than now! | ||
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Gtoad
United States90 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 31 2012 00:54 thezanursic wrote: 52% Winrate in favor of Terran in 2011 summer, right? Yeah... for 1-2months we had those ~50% winrates. Else it was between 54% and 64%. + Show Spoiler + http://i.imgur.com/XII8M.png In fact the only reason why people considered TvZ "somewhat balanced" was that the comparison where 60-70% spikes in ZvP and TvP. Sorry, but TvZ was exactly in the same condition it is right now, just the other way round... Apart from some TvZ Monsters (Nestea, July, Losira, Leenock, later on DRG - now Mvp, Teaja, MKP, Bogus, Ryung), the matchup was/is T/Z favored. | ||
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NEEDZMOAR
Sweden1277 Posts
On December 31 2012 00:49 thezanursic wrote: On phone? I loved playing TvZ in 2011 I just loved it I could play TvZ a day straight, but Blizzard killed it to *balance it* when in fact it was almost perfectly balanced... I hate to crush your illusion mate, but the only people who enjoyed TvZ were terrans, every zerg hated TvZ probably even more than how much T hate the matchup nowadays. | ||
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Account252508
3454 Posts
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Morton
United States152 Posts
On December 31 2012 02:24 Big J wrote: Yeah... for 1-2months we had those ~50% winrates. Else it was between 54% and 64%. + Show Spoiler + http://i.imgur.com/XII8M.png In fact the only reason why people considered TvZ "somewhat balanced" was that the comparison where 60-70% spikes in ZvP and TvP. Sorry, but TvZ was exactly in the same condition it is right now, just the other way round... Apart from some TvZ Monsters (Nestea, July, Losira, Leenock, later on DRG - now Mvp, Teaja, MKP, Bogus, Ryung), the matchup was/is T/Z favored. you kind of missed the point of his post (by only quoting the first line) basically he meant that in 2011 TvZ with marine/tank vs ling/bling/muta was FUN and balanced enough to not warrant changes, where as the current TvZ meta is simply not fun. | ||
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Mouzone
3937 Posts
On December 31 2012 01:11 Gtoad wrote: Disable "auto-mining", get rid of "smart casting." Bam...did it. Yeah, you did it! You completely drove away the existing playerbase consisting of casual players. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
To make the return on strategic development even worse, all strategies are transparent. So if you're the strategical mastermind who pioneered the hellion/banshee play in TvZ, your strategical genius is rewarded for one series, after which, your strategy is out of the bag, and everyone else can use it, so you've gained no more benefit than any other members of your race. It's not a time-effective investment. Signatures of a mechanics-dominated game: - Cannot compete at top level without incredibly large time investment - Time spent theorizing about the game is far less effective than physically playing it - Best players tend to be younger (all of these apply to Starcraft, these mostly don't apply to Chess and more strategy-centric RTSes like AoE) Signatures of a strategy-dominated game: - Can compete at top level with less time investment - Time spent thinking/theorizing about the game is roughly as effective practice as physically playing it - Best players tend to be older (none of these apple to Starcraft, they mostly apply to Chess and more strategy-centric RTSes like AoE) I'm a bit of an RTS fanatic, so I've played everything from AoE to console RTSes to Starcraft seriously. Starcraft has, far and away, the least focus on strategy and the most focus on mechanics of any RTS I've ever played. This community thinks that SC2 is less mechanics focused because Brood War is what it's being compared to, and in that context, it obviously is less mechanically-demanding. But both BW and SC2 exist far to the mechanics side when compared to other games. I'm not saying that Starcraft 2 doesn't take strategy - it does, and I greatly enjoy watching the metagame shift. I should also point out that the game requires tons of tactical skill. However, the game doesn't reward strategical prowess enough to allow someone to compete on those merits, and in comparison to other RTSes, Starcraft is heavily mechanics-slanted. Edit: I'm excluding WC3 from this discussion, as it's another Blizzard RTS and is similar in many ways. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 31 2012 02:52 Morton wrote: you kind of missed the point of his post (by only quoting the first line) basically he meant that in 2011 TvZ with marine/tank vs ling/bling/muta was FUN and balanced enough to not warrant changes, where as the current TvZ meta is simply not fun. I didn't miss that part. I simply chose to only respond to the misleading part of his post. | ||
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fabiano
Brazil4644 Posts
On December 31 2012 02:56 Mouzone wrote: Yeah, you did it! You completely drove away the existing playerbase consisting of casual players. So you mean SC2 should take casual play into consideration? Which means SC2 should be more like LoL, you know, easier for the scrubs like me? I do not advocate the removal of auto-mining, I think having auto-mining is definitely fine. However smart casting has to go, along with unlimited group selection. About this last one, IF SC2 somehow rewarded better the players who split their army along multiple control groups, then unlimited selection would be completely fine too, since selecting all army would be detrimental to your play. Either Blizzard drives SC2 development towards competitive play, or they fall on the casual side. You cannot have both. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On December 31 2012 03:42 fabiano wrote: So you mean SC2 should take casual play into consideration? Which means SC2 should be more like LoL, you know, easier for the scrubs like me? I do not advocate the removal of auto-mining, I think having auto-mining is definitely fine. However smart casting has to go, along with unlimited group selection. About this last one, IF SC2 somehow rewarded better the players who split their army along multiple control groups, then unlimited selection would be completely fine too, since selecting all army would be detrimental to your play. Either Blizzard drives SC2 development towards competitive play, or they fall on the casual side. You cannot have both. That's why the most popular games like football or basketball are only played by the masses and not by highlevel professionals... Of course you can have both. A game that is easy to learn and fun to be played will get picked up by a lot of players (assuming good marketing). That doesn't mean that it cannot be hard to master. | ||
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QzYSc2
Netherlands281 Posts
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imre
France9263 Posts
On December 31 2012 03:50 QzYSc2 wrote: if every worker required manual mining per every trip, would you be impressed watching pros with their 'mechanics' in a 60 mins long game where nothing happens, or rather bored? i rather see strategy please. it'd be only 45more minutes of boredom than your average sc2 game. | ||
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