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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
The chart there is interactive -- you can pick region and race, and see how SQ varies by game length. The basic findings:
I'm about to go to bed now, so I'll check in tomorrow and answer any questions! | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10345 Posts
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ff7legend
United States213 Posts
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10345 Posts
 i do stack up quite a lot of resources often... haha | ||
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Insomni7
667 Posts
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CyDe
United States1010 Posts
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VPVanek
Canada238 Posts
AWesome! :D | ||
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On December 19 2012 13:56 CyDe wrote: Doesn't this method of calculation not provide accurate results for Protoss? Because of warp cycles they have to stockpile more resources than the other races, then do "burst spending." Well comparing divisions will be accurate, since all protosses have the same mechanic/issue. Comparing P to Z to T is kinda silly due to the mechanics of production. Since itrelies on average unspent, average for P and Z will be higher than T, in theory, but a GM P will be better than a Dia P, and same Master Z vs silver Z. | ||
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Thienan567
United States670 Posts
On December 19 2012 13:56 CyDe wrote: Doesn't this method of calculation not provide accurate results for Protoss? Because of warp cycles they have to stockpile more resources than the other races, then do "burst spending." So does zerg when remaxing. Honestly Terran is the only race with constant production so I think it's to be expected that they have higher SQ over longer games. Overall terran players have better macro. You know what that means. Terrans have better macro -> more skill -> other races are for noobs :p | ||
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Kyrao
United States161 Posts
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Mia
75 Posts
On December 19 2012 14:18 Thienan567 wrote: So does zerg when remaxing. Honestly Terran is the only race with constant production so I think it's to be expected that they have higher SQ over longer games. Overall terran players have better macro. You know what that means. Terrans have better macro -> more skill -> other races are for noobs :p once remaxing other races spend resourses faster(insta remax from 60 larva vs couple rounds of rax/factory/starport build time), so actually there sq should be higher in late game..the only time zergs/toss sq is lower is early-mid game, when zerg saves up for flock of mutas, or toss does warpin round. But once maxed out, its the other way around. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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Emperor
Norway68 Posts
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Kyrao
United States161 Posts
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romans
Australia18 Posts
On December 19 2012 17:23 Kyrao wrote: I don't understand the logic behind this idea that protoss should have a lower sq because of warpins... warping in 10 zealots is the exact same as selecting your barracks and hitting "a" 20 times when it comes to sq. The fact that protoss have an instant return on their investment, in terms of in game units, has no effect on these numbers... I think you are correct but a terran player can queue up units which instantly spends the money. Also, protoss players can be better served by waiting for every gateway to finish before making another round of units because they have to actually look at a pylon to do it while terrans can produce with a control group | ||
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Wraithan
United States18 Posts
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
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cvgHuShang
Canada95 Posts
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Wraithan
United States18 Posts
In looking at a single person's data, I watch them (no game length data in the data I have) fluctuate between low gold in some matches up to high diamond in others and they are platinum. | ||
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Cereb
Denmark3388 Posts
Was trying to figure out how SQ had evolved since it came to be known  | ||
The_Templar
your Country52797 Posts
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Bulugulu
Israel250 Posts
In EU high master most players I encounter easily have 100+, and I rarely go below 90. | ||
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Surili
United Kingdom1141 Posts
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TheSwamp
United States1497 Posts
On December 19 2012 22:23 Surili wrote: All these people doing it off one game, take 15 games and get an average, including ALL the games, and you shall see where you really are. Sometimes I am GM, sometimes Diamond, depends what is happening in the game and how much i get to expand. Yeah, it's weird that people would not take an average from a number of games. | ||
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Therg
Sweden238 Posts
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
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Lokerek
United States441 Posts
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Moka
Canada942 Posts
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KirA_TheGreaT
France204 Posts
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
On December 20 2012 00:35 Moka wrote: Why bronze and silver players have suddenly a SQ spike @ 25 minute mark? o.o It also applies to other leagues, but the spike is less noticeable. And I also wonder what is so special at the 25 minute mark. Just a guess, but it probably has to do with the a few factors... a)# of games (most games don't last 25 min, so the sample size is going to be drastically smaller). b)skill of the players that get past 25 min. It's possible that players that get into longer games are better. c)with less mining bases and full production it's much easier to keep your unspent/collection lower. | ||
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On December 19 2012 13:22 ff7legend wrote: is there any way to do this with at least top korean games to compare their SQ to other regions? Yes, I'm planning to add KR and the other servers to this at some point. If others are interested, just let me know... trying to choose what to do next: 1) add HotS support, 2) add other servers, 3) add winrates by matchup and game length | ||
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Zetter
Germany629 Posts
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On December 19 2012 13:35 Insomni7 wrote: Cool website. I assume it is continuing to update with new games? Thanks! I currently update it only manually... at some point I'll make it auto-updating for sure. | ||
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On December 20 2012 04:20 GenesisX wrote: Wow what happens at 25 minutes that makes all leagues spike in their spending? Isn't that around the time your inital 2 bases have run dry? Not hard to spend 0 income :D | ||
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On December 19 2012 22:57 Therg wrote: One thing that would be nice is if you were able to see the avarage SQ for specific players. You can do that! For example, here is my profile, filtered to show only 1v1 Ladder matches: http://ggtracker.com/players/1455#?game_type=1v1&category=Ladder&page=1 In the black bar across the top, you'll see that my Spending Skill is Platinum. Spending Skill is more meaningful than SQ: an SQ of 80 is Grandmaster for a EU Zerg in a 20-minute game, but in a 7-minute game it is only Diamond. | ||
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Zzzapper
1796 Posts
Therefore I believe that while SQ is certainly a reasonable way to measure macro, it is certainly not flawless or optimal; it has quite a high margin of error. I imagine (guess) you will see pros at around the same skill level having ~15 SQ-points difference. TL;DR: I trade armies a lot and therefore have high SQ. This isn't optimal. | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On December 20 2012 00:35 Moka wrote: Why bronze and silver players have suddenly a SQ spike @ 25 minute mark? o.o It also applies to other leagues, but the spike is less noticeable. And I also wonder what is so special at the 25 minute mark. Good catch! I realize now that must be an artifact of how I smoothed the data. Between 10 and 25 minutes inclusive, I took the average of the window (x-5,x+5). So 10 minutes and 25 minutes are the join points between smoothed data and raw data. I smoothed the data because the raw data is noisy/jumpy, which produces weird and undesirable effects when you use the data to compute your Spending Skill. | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
On December 20 2012 04:20 GenesisX wrote: Wow what happens at 25 minutes that makes all leagues spike in their spending? Hive tech  . Mining out, too. | ||
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Wraithan
United States18 Posts
On December 20 2012 07:35 dsjoerg wrote: Good catch! I realize now that must be an artifact of how I smoothed the data. Between 10 and 25 minutes inclusive, I took the average of the window (x-5,x+5). So 10 minutes and 25 minutes are the join points between smoothed data and raw data. I smoothed the data because the raw data is noisy/jumpy, which produces weird and undesirable effects when you use the data to compute your Spending Skill. Maybe lower the window size and spread it across the whole graph (x-2,x+2) to get a nice rolling average? | ||
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Evangelist
1246 Posts
1. Production Quotient: Percentage of time all buildings spent unused below 200 supply 2. Energy Quotient: Harder to do for all races but could very easily be weighted relative to their importance. 3. Efficiency Quotient: Damage Inflicted-Damage Taken/Damage Taken. Damage Taken will ALWAYS be non-zero. | ||
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Sjokola
Netherlands800 Posts
Edit: answered | ||
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Wraithan
United States18 Posts
On December 20 2012 08:09 Evangelist wrote: This measure could be expanded and normalised per race if you were to calculate a seperate set of quotients. 1. Production Quotient: Percentage of time all buildings spent unused below 200 supply 2. Energy Quotient: Harder to do for all races but could very easily be weighted relative to their importance. 3. Efficiency Quotient: Damage Inflicted-Damage Taken/Damage Taken. Damage Taken will ALWAYS be non-zero. Unfortunately these things are very hard to do as the replay doesn't actually provide the information For 1, to get a really accurate number you have to simulate the whole game. You don't get things like if a unit was built, just that there was an attempt to build the unit, nor do you get that it was delayed due to supply block, etc. For 2, you have to simulate how much energy things have and subtract for casting. For 3, also requires simulating the game, though I think you can get unit deaths which may be enough to get some decent numbers. | ||
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On December 20 2012 03:24 iEchoic wrote: These are really cool statistics, would love to see more of this. It would be really cool to see timings by league as well (for example, upgrade timings, etc.). I have a feeling that more refined build orders are a major factor separating GM from Master's and Diamond. Great idea iEchoic, we'll do it! | ||
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On December 20 2012 08:06 Wraithan wrote: Maybe lower the window size and spread it across the whole graph (x-2,x+2) to get a nice rolling average? I tried something like that, however for the 5 minute mark, you don't really want to average SQ from 3 to 7 -- because games don't end at 3 minutes anyway... nor do you want to use the average from 5 to 7 as the stat for 5. Which led me to the somewhat braindead approach I'm using now, simply using the average of games that lasted from 5:00 to 5:59. Now that I'm thinking about it, it might be better for 5 to be simply 5, but 6 can be the average of 5,6,7, and 7 can be the average of 5,6,7,8,9, etc. | ||
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On December 20 2012 08:09 Evangelist wrote: This measure could be expanded and normalised per race if you were to calculate a seperate set of quotients. 1. Production Quotient: Percentage of time all buildings spent unused below 200 supply 2. Energy Quotient: Harder to do for all races but could very easily be weighted relative to their importance. 3. Efficiency Quotient: Damage Inflicted-Damage Taken/Damage Taken. Damage Taken will ALWAYS be non-zero. Agreeing with Wraithan that 1 is really tough to do. Hard to know how many workers a player has at any time, thus hard to know when they are at/below 200 supply. #2 I think is doable, we've got something like that for Zerg up on the site now. #3 is doable in a way, not in terms of damage, but in terms of the resource value of units killed. And what we have is not quite killed but "removed from opponent's active army" which usually means killed. We estimate the army composition at every point in the game, so based on that we can estimate death... | ||
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korona
1098 Posts
Can you provide more statistics? Value of the current data is unknown as you do not provide your methods or deeper statistics, such as user counts (you likely have much more data from the uploaders than from their opponents), distribution to different levels, time period of the matches taken into account, sample sizes for different levels & different game lengths, etc. How do you collect the data as SQ cannot be calculated based on the info stored in the replay? Is the data entirely based on s2gs file imports (the announced amounts, 40k for US and 80k for EU, sound very high considering the tool never seemed to become popular by looking at TL threads on it) or have users manually reported core values? With a quick view some match reports seem to be based on only replay file, some on s2gs file and some have combined data from both two sources (your description suggests that you would fetch the s2gs data based on the replay? Is the s2gs id stated in the replay file?)? Edit: sample sizes seem to have been added | ||
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On December 20 2012 14:21 korona wrote: @dsjoerg : Can you provide more statistics? Value of the current data is unknown as you do not provide your methods or deeper statistics, such as user counts (you likely have much more data from the uploaders than from their opponents), distribution to different levels, time period of the matches taken into account, sample sizes for different levels & different game lengths, etc. How do you collect the data as SQ cannot be calculated based on the info stored in the replay? Is the data entirely based on s2gs file imports (the announced amounts, 40k for US and 80k for EU, sound very high considering the tool never seemed to become popular by looking at TL threads on it) or have users manually reported core values? With a quick view some match reports seem to be based on only replay file, some on s2gs file and some have combined data from both two sources (your description suggests that you would fetch the s2gs data based on the replay? Is the s2gs id stated in the replay file?)? Edit: sample sizes seem to have been added Quick answers:
I'll add more details tomorrow -- in particular the dates from which these games are drawn, and hopefully I can find a good way to let you drill down into the individual games on which the stats are drawn so that you can confirm suspicious / interesting data points for yourself. | ||
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Allenansgar
United States31 Posts
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On December 28 2012 03:14 Allenansgar wrote: Has anyone linked Build Orders to SQ yet? Or is this just a data mining exercise to deem what is efficient assuming you are either spending all your resources, or not. Could you explain in more detail what you have in mind? Identifying the "build order" that was used in any particular game is quite difficult, depending on exactly what you mean. That is, in any particular game there is the list of what each player built and when, which is literally the Build Order for that game. So there are millions and millions of different possible Build Orders. However I suspect that linking these raw Build Orders to SQ is not quite what you have in mind. | ||
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MetalPanda
Canada1152 Posts
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BronzeKnee
United States5217 Posts
So right now I am low-mid Master Protoss player on NA who used to be high Master but hasn't been playing much. One of my strengths is that I spend my money really well. Thus, I got an average 102.5 as my spending quotient with a game length of 24 minutes. This is well above GM. But one my weakness is that I often don't take in quite as much as my opponent, because sometimes I cut my Probe production too soon or don't take a 3rd quick enough. So my macro in terms of raw income is poor, but my ability to spend wisely and not pool resources is good which leads to a good spending quotient. I believe this quotient needs to have some consideration of how much resources are being taken in and when. If I should be collecting X amount at Y time, but I have less, then the fact I spending those resources more efficiently is meaningless. | ||
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On December 30 2012 10:07 BronzeKnee wrote: I find this statistic deceiving... ... So my macro in terms of raw income is poor, but my ability to spend wisely and not pool resources is good which leads to a good spending quotient. BronzeKnee, I agree that Spending Skill is limited to measuring of only one aspect of macro -- your Spending. The plan for GGTracker is to measure and track several other skills. You mentioned income, do people think it'd be a good idea to have an Income Skill? It would compare your income in a game to other players of that race in games of that length. I'm open to any and all suggestions, especially ones that find a pretty broad consensus in the community. | ||
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whatthefat
United States918 Posts
1) Looking at durations from about 8 to 20 minutes, where the great majority of games end, it is interesting to see how things have changed since September 2011. The improvement in average SQ for Grandmasters appears to be relatively small, if non-existent. Previously the average SQ was 82. For NA Terran players, it now appears to now be around 86, but for Protoss only about 78, and for Zerg about 82 (averaging across the downward sloping line). Since there are similar numbers of players of each race, this comes out to an average of about 82, i.e., no net improvement. Doing similar by-eye averages for the other NA leagues, I find the following improvements since the initial analysis. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ryjn1.png) As I expected, the greatest gains have been achieved by the players in the lower leagues. As a result, the SQ spread has become narrower. Previously, the difference in SQ between the average Bronze and the average GM player was about 40 points. Now it looks to be about 26 points. For this reason, I think it may be necessary to develop a higher fidelity measure. When SQ was first proposed, it was an excellent metric for comparison between leagues and for tracking self-improvement. Now that the range of skill is narrowing, it may be worth looking for a way to increase its accuracy (see below). 2) In my initial analysis with 2084 games, I was not able to detect any significant effect of game duration or race on SQ. My later analysis suggested that there may be some disadvantage for Protoss, especially at the highest levels of play. With many more games, it is now interesting to see what appears to be a trend towards lower SQ for longer games in these results, especially for Zerg, and especially for lower leagues. Terran also definitely appears to have some advantage over Protoss, and over Zerg for longer game durations. Using these data, it should be possible to formulate an even more accurate version of SQ, possibly taking race and game duration into account. Some of the spread in the initial results by league may be mostly due to not accounting for these variables. | ||
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Evangelist
1246 Posts
1. Interest in the game. I'm willing to suggest that those people who are more into Starcraft 2 (watch Day9, tournaments and so on) are likely to be more focused on "mechanics". A lot of the overlap you will see between leagues is due to this effect - people actively seeking promotion through macro. This is especially true of Terrans - FilterSC is more or less the standard terran macro build in lower leagues and it is extraordinarily SQ efficient. A terran following FilterSC standard 3 rax 1 fact 1 starport 50 SCVs with +1 can easily hit 75-85 SQ AND STILL LOSE because they either are too timid, attack late or various other reasons. 2. Percentage of games which last a certain time. In other analysis you note that the SQ of games has a tendency to drop off dramatically as the game lengthens. My question for you is, in your analysis, what percentage of those games by league got to that point? Remember that people don't really hit timings in Bronze League. They might be able to macro - they might even be able to put a huge number of units together but the moment they attack, their SQ will drop really fast. I don't think you're ever going to get an ideal fit. That's why I suggested some iterative measures above relating to Production Quotients and so on. Harder to do, but maybe we'll get some more information out of Blizzard at some point | ||
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Evangelist
1246 Posts
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gh0un
601 Posts
Lets look at random diamond replay: queued units on the production buildings. Lets look at random master replay: queued units on the production buildings. Lets look at random grandmaster replay: queued units on the production buildings. Lets take a look at IMMvps replays, queued units on the production buildings, at all stages of the game. I wonder why terrans have the highest spending quotient, really dont have a clue at all. Oh right, macroing as terran works differently than macroing as protoss or zerg, of which both have to macro at the exact moment when they actually have their larvae/warpins available, while terran can lazily queue all of that stuff up. You constantly produce as terran, thats just how it is. | ||
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Rulker
United States1477 Posts
On January 07 2013 02:55 gh0un wrote: Terrans have the highest spending quotient, really now? Lets look at random diamond replay: queued units on the production buildings. Lets look at random master replay: queued units on the production buildings. Lets look at random grandmaster replay: queued units on the production buildings. Lets take a look at IMMvps replays, queued units on the production buildings, at all stages of the game. I wonder why terrans have the highest spending quotient, really dont have a clue at all. Oh right, macroing as terran works differently than macroing as protoss or zerg, of which both have to macro at the exact moment when they actually have their larvae/warpins available, while terran can lazily queue all of that stuff up. You constantly produce as terran, thats just how it is. Why such passive aggressiveness? | ||
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gh0un
601 Posts
Didnt mean to be passive aggressive, i just thought it was pretty obvious why terrans have lower average unspent resources than the other two races. Its also something that really annoys me when casters point it out during a game, "wow xyz terran has amazing macro, look at his resources, all of them spent" when in reality all of his resources are queued up in his production buildings and he has the worst macro in the history of terrans. You cant keep track of unspent resources correctly for terran, because they can just queue their unspent resources up, and dont get me started with "pros never queue stuff up", even the best terrans start queueing when the game goes beyond 8 minutes. | ||
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SpadeAce
Netherlands100 Posts
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
I can't believe i missed it until now. This project needs/deserves a lot more attention. Some suggestions i would love to see implemented: Please add the actual numbers to the spending graph. That the most important feature to me. The league symbol is not very accurate and the league SQ could possibly change overtime. I want to keep track of my SQ in absolute numbers. Filter out non sc2 games. I have acutally tower defenses and other custom games in my profil. :D Easy solution would be to be able to manual delete games. allow several bnet accounts per ggtracker account. A lot of people have smurfs or accounts in different regions. A chrono boost graph similar to the injection graph  Big thx to the creator(s) of this tool! | ||
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SpadeAce
Netherlands100 Posts
On January 07 2013 03:27 OrbitalPlane wrote: This tool is really great. When i was reading the OP i thought this must be a fake. Until now everyone told me that it is impossible to read out the spending quotient from replays. This webside is indeed awesome and real so! I can't believe i missed it until now. This project needs/deserves a lot more attention. Some suggestions i would love to see implemented: Please add the actual numbers to the spending graph. That the most important feature to me. The league symbol is not very accurate and the league SQ could possibly change overtime. I want to keep track of my SQ in absolute numbers. Filter out non sc2 games. I have acutally tower defenses and other custom games in my profil. :D Me personally i only care about 1on1 ladder, but i guess some ppl are also interested in team games or custom sc2 games. So individual settings might be best. Easy solution would be to be able to manual delete games. allow several bnet accounts per ggtracker account. A lot of people have smurfs or accounts in different regions. A chrono boost graph similar to the injection graph Big thx to the creator(s) of this tool! You can toggle Ladder and 1V1 if you only want these stats. And if you click on a particular match you can see your SQ in absolute numbers. If you have a premium account you have have several Bnet account per ggtracker account. | ||
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whatthefat
United States918 Posts
On January 07 2013 02:41 Evangelist wrote: Not necessarily. There will always be a distribution which will result from a few things. 1. Interest in the game. I'm willing to suggest that those people who are more into Starcraft 2 (watch Day9, tournaments and so on) are likely to be more focused on "mechanics". A lot of the overlap you will see between leagues is due to this effect - people actively seeking promotion through macro. This is especially true of Terrans - FilterSC is more or less the standard terran macro build in lower leagues and it is extraordinarily SQ efficient. A terran following FilterSC standard 3 rax 1 fact 1 starport 50 SCVs with +1 can easily hit 75-85 SQ AND STILL LOSE because they either are too timid, attack late or various other reasons. 2. Percentage of games which last a certain time. In other analysis you note that the SQ of games has a tendency to drop off dramatically as the game lengthens. My question for you is, in your analysis, what percentage of those games by league got to that point? Remember that people don't really hit timings in Bronze League. They might be able to macro - they might even be able to put a huge number of units together but the moment they attack, their SQ will drop really fast. I don't think you're ever going to get an ideal fit. That's why I suggested some iterative measures above relating to Production Quotients and so on. Harder to do, but maybe we'll get some more information out of Blizzard at some point You are absolutely correct in saying that some of the variability is inherent in the data. For example, there will of course be some players in Gold league who macro better than those in Platinum league. Hence, there must be some overlap between leagues if we are to use SQ, which is a totally non-contextual measure of how well one is spending compared to income. Nevertheless, with this volume of data, it should be possible to formulate a more accurate version of SQ. I thoroughly agree on the point regarding Blizzard. My hope is that they will make accessing this type of data easier for players and analysts alike. They may need a friendly nudge in the right direction though! | ||
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
You can toggle Ladder and 1V1 if you only want these stats. I was in the 1V1 modus. Missed the ladder one so. Custom games are gone now. And if you click on a particular match you can see your SQ in absolute numbers. If i open one replay i can only find the "average unspent resources". This stat is not very useful to keep track of. It's kinda natural that it increases the longer the game goes. Right now i only see the spending skill icon. Maybe i am just blind. :D If you have a premium account you have have several Bnet account per ggtracker account. cool, good to know. | ||
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raQn
Poland21 Posts
this is great analyse tool and its always great to see actual lvl. I will definitely share it with friends | ||
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CruelZeratul
Germany4588 Posts
On January 07 2013 04:10 raQn wrote: Thanks for this site! this is great analyse tool and its always great to see actual lvl. I will definitely share it with friends Not really. If your econemy is shit, but you spend all of those 400 mins/min your SQ should be pretty high but you probably aren't that good as the number suggests. | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
On January 07 2013 03:04 gh0un wrote: Didnt mean to be passive aggressive, i just thought it was pretty obvious why terrans have lower average unspent resources than the other two races. Its also something that really annoys me when casters point it out during a game, "wow xyz terran has amazing macro, look at his resources, all of them spent" when in reality all of his resources are queued up in his production buildings and he has the worst macro in the history of terrans. You cant keep track of unspent resources correctly for terran, because they can just queue their unspent resources up, and dont get me started with "pros never queue stuff up", even the best terrans start queueing when the game goes beyond 8 minutes. They have to micro the hardest....I hope their macro isn't as hard lol Even if they can queue up, very few in fact no one can macro like Flash | ||
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.kv
United States2332 Posts
Would be pretty nifty | ||
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SpadeAce
Netherlands100 Posts
If you have a premium account you have have several Bnet account per ggtracker account. cool, good to know. Yes, but if you are on the specific match page, if you go over the League icon of your spending skill with your mouse, you will see the absolute number | ||
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Deleted User 245622
184 Posts
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raQn
Poland21 Posts
On January 07 2013 04:15 CruelZeratul wrote: Not really. If your econemy is shit, but you spend all of those 400 mins/min your SQ should be pretty high but you probably aren't that good as the number suggests. Thats right. And this is reason to consider only standard, macro games. I had 30 minute tvz, where during whole game I had 2200 resources per minute and average unspent res around 1000. | ||
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
On January 07 2013 04:22 SpadeAce wrote: Yes, but if you are on the specific match page, if you go over the League icon of your spending skill with your mouse, you will see the absolute number i see thx! =) Would be even better so if you could see it in the graph. | ||
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whatthefat
United States918 Posts
On January 07 2013 04:15 CruelZeratul wrote: Not really. If your econemy is shit, but you spend all of those 400 mins/min your SQ should be pretty high but you probably aren't that good as the number suggests. SQ is not just measuring the raw rate of spending. It is normalized by your income -- see the original thread. It is harder to spend a larger income, and SQ is defined to incorporate that fact. | ||
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On January 07 2013 01:08 whatthefat wrote: This is nice to see. I have some thoughts on the results: + Show Spoiler + 1) Looking at durations from about 8 to 20 minutes, where the great majority of games end, it is interesting to see how things have changed since September 2011. The improvement in average SQ for Grandmasters appears to be relatively small, if non-existent. Previously the average SQ was 82. For NA Terran players, it now appears to now be around 86, but for Protoss only about 78, and for Zerg about 82 (averaging across the downward sloping line). Since there are similar numbers of players of each race, this comes out to an average of about 82, i.e., no net improvement. Doing similar by-eye averages for the other NA leagues, I find the following improvements since the initial analysis. As I expected, the greatest gains have been achieved by the players in the lower leagues. As a result, the SQ spread has become narrower. Previously, the difference in SQ between the average Bronze and the average GM player was about 40 points. Now it looks to be about 26 points. For this reason, I think it may be necessary to develop a higher fidelity measure. When SQ was first proposed, it was an excellent metric for comparison between leagues and for tracking self-improvement. Now that the range of skill is narrowing, it may be worth looking for a way to increase its accuracy (see below). 2) In my initial analysis with 2084 games, I was not able to detect any significant effect of game duration or race on SQ. My later analysis suggested that there may be some disadvantage for Protoss, especially at the highest levels of play. With many more games, it is now interesting to see what appears to be a trend towards lower SQ for longer games in these results, especially for Zerg, and especially for lower leagues. Terran also definitely appears to have some advantage over Protoss, and over Zerg for longer game durations. Using these data, it should be possible to formulate an even more accurate version of SQ, possibly taking race and game duration into account. Some of the spread in the initial results by league may be mostly due to not accounting for these variables. Hi whatthefat, GGTracker would be happy to share detailed data for analysis if you (or anyone!) would like to develop a higher fidelity measure. | ||
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Hamdemon
United States348 Posts
That being said I use crappy builds and my micro is non-existant... | ||
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Jomppa
1225 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4cZ7K.png) What happens that time? | ||
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Atrbyg
United States513 Posts
I was wondering the same thing. This site is really cool. Will start using it from now on. | ||
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On January 07 2013 05:58 Jomppa wrote: [spoiler] [spoiler] What happens that time? The data shown has been "smoothed" so that bronze is never higher than silver, silver is never higher than gold, and so on. In the raw data, for very short game durations where we don't have a lot of data, sometimes bronze would have a high SQ by luck. So the other league SQs were adjusted upward to bronze level. If there's interest I'll add a button to the page so people can see the Raw data as well as the Smoothed data. The Smoothed data is what GGTracker uses to compute the Spending Skill for each player in each game. For that purpose of translating an SQ into a league, it's important that Silver not be lower than Bronze, etc | ||
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On January 07 2013 03:27 OrbitalPlane wrote: This tool is really great. When i was reading the OP i thought this must be a fake. Until now everyone told me that it is impossible to read out the spending quotient from replays. This webside is indeed awesome and real so! I can't believe i missed it until now. This project needs/deserves a lot more attention. Some suggestions i would love to see implemented: Please add the actual numbers to the spending graph. That the most important feature to me. The league symbol is not very accurate and the league SQ could possibly change overtime. I want to keep track of my SQ in absolute numbers. Filter out non sc2 games. I have acutally tower defenses and other custom games in my profil. :D Easy solution would be to be able to manual delete games. allow several bnet accounts per ggtracker account. A lot of people have smurfs or accounts in different regions. A chrono boost graph similar to the injection graph Big thx to the creator(s) of this tool! Hi OrbitalPlane thanks! We are reading Spending Quotient not from the replays, but from the s2gs files. Chrono boost graph is coming! And something for Terran too. We graph Spending Skill rather than SQ because Spending Skill is more accurate -- it takes into account the race and game duration also, two factors which we know have a major effect on SQ. However I appreciate that an actual number sounds more precise, and you make a good point that league SQ could possibly change over time. Also, I believe the customer is always right! If several GGTracker Pro subscribers request it, we will add an SQ graph. | ||
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
On January 07 2013 07:08 dsjoerg wrote: We graph Spending Skill rather than SQ because Spending Skill is more accurate -- it takes into account the race and game duration also, two factors which we know have a major effect on SQ. However I appreciate that an actual number sounds more precise, and you make a good point that league SQ could possibly change over time. Also, I believe the customer is always right! If several GGTracker Pro subscribers request it, we will add an SQ graph.I explained it poorly. I didn't mean you should add a SQ graph. I assume you calculate the Spending Skill from the SQ and some adjustments. So if you get a number after the calculations that is comparable you could display it in addition to the league icon. It's just seeing the master icon in most of my matches doesn't help me to keep track of my development. But maybe that's not possible if you don't calculate an actual number to place the Spending Skill in a league. I have uploaded ~250 replays from the last month.The information you get from the s2gs files is missing in nearly all of them. I assume that's because i haven't played a lot of sc2 recentely and these replays are old. In the games from the last days it works fine. What's the time frame/ last number of games you can get the s2gs files from? | ||
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On January 07 2013 18:15 OrbitalPlane wrote: I explained it poorly. I didn't mean you should add a SQ graph. I assume you calculate the Spending Skill from the SQ and some adjustments. So if you get a number after the calculations that is comparable you could display it in addition to the league icon. It's just seeing the master icon in most of my matches doesn't help me to keep track of my development. But maybe that's not possible if you don't calculate an actual number to place the Spending Skill in a league. Aha, thanks for the clarification. We will show "flair" on the league icons to show whether your spending was low master, high master, etc. It was supposed to be doing this all along but there was a bug which I just fixed. We do compute a number -- 0 for bronze, 1 for silver, 1.5 for halfway between silver and gold, etc. Now that the flair is visible, have a look and let me know if this works for you? What's the time frame/ last number of games you can get the s2gs files from? We retrieve s2gs (spending skill, etc) for your last 25 to 50 games, and of course all your new games from that time onwards. | ||
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Najda
United States3765 Posts
Other feedback: I'd like to be able to view my average SQ in categories such as: 1v1 SQ, last 10 games SQ, Overall SQ etc. Since almost all of my 1v1s are in the GM range, it means my SQ could be anything 80+ and I have to view each game to check. 2nd piece of feedback is we should be able to see the SQ of a game in the profile summary page without having to click on each individual game by hovering over the icon just like in the game summary page. | ||
ZodaSoda
Australia1191 Posts
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Deleted User 245622
184 Posts
On January 08 2013 01:12 Najda wrote: On the GGtracker site, an SQ of 80 is considered high grandmaster, while SQ of 101 is mid grandmaster. I assume this wasn't intended Other feedback: I'd like to be able to view my average SQ in categories such as: 1v1 SQ, last 10 games SQ, Overall SQ etc. Since almost all of my 1v1s are in the GM range, it means my SQ could be anything 80+ and I have to view each game to check. 2nd piece of feedback is we should be able to see the SQ of a game in the profile summary page without having to click on each individual game by hovering over the icon just like in the game summary page. Your SQ decreases as the game progresses. So infact it is possible that a Sq of 80 ist high grandmaster and a sq of 101 is mid grandmaster. You see that the first game took 12 minutes to finish whereas the second game lasted for about 20 minutes | ||
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On January 08 2013 01:12 Najda wrote: On the GGtracker site, an SQ of 80 is considered high grandmaster, while SQ of 101 is mid grandmaster. I assume this wasn't intended Whoops thanks for the bug report! It's fixed. I'd like to be able to view my average SQ in categories such as: 1v1 SQ, last 10 games SQ, Overall SQ etc. Since almost all of my 1v1s are in the GM range, it means my SQ could be anything 80+ and I have to view each game to check. On your player page, you can click "1v1", which will make the list show your 1v1 games and the charts and averages will change to show only your 1v1 games as well. For example, here are your 1v1 ladder stats vs Protoss. BTW great Spending Skill!! :D Your last 10 games average is shown in two ways -- it's the last data point on the chart, and it's also the "Recently" value shown below the chart to the right side. Your overall SQ is also below the chart, on the left side. 2nd piece of feedback is we should be able to see the SQ of a game in the profile summary page without having to click on each individual game by hovering over the icon just like in the game summary page. Agreed! It's on the list | ||
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On January 08 2013 01:26 aidosae wrote: Your SQ decreases as the game progresses. So infact it is possible that a Sq of 80 ist high grandmaster and a sq of 101 is mid grandmaster. You see that the first game took 12 minutes to finish whereas the second game lasted for about 20 minutes Very good point aidosae, and I was going to say the same thing, but then I looked at the Spending Skill Stats and an SQ of 101 is high grandmaster for any game length and race. It was just a bug :r By the way happy birthday!  | ||
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Zheryn
Sweden3653 Posts
On December 19 2012 14:09 VPVanek wrote: My spending skill is grandmaster apparently. AWesome! :D This seems to be true for most master players, it doesn't seem to be that of an effective stat. | ||
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On January 08 2013 01:38 Zheryn wrote: This seems to be true for most master players, it doesn't seem to be that of an effective stat. I was worried about this too, so I looked. Currently there are 92 GGTracker users who are ranked 1v1 Masters and have at least 10 games in the system. Their average Spending Skill is slightly sub-Masters. To put it in number terms, if 0 is Bronze average, 1 is Silver, ... 4 is Diamond avg, 5 is Master avg, and 6 is GM, then the average GGTracker 1v1 Masters player has an average Spending Skill of 4.8. Spending Skill is calibrated to not just those 92 GGTracker users but to >17,000 1v1 Masters accounts, and the thousands of 1v1 Ladder games they have played. I'll keep an eye on this regularly, as the calibration is important to everyone. | ||
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On January 08 2013 01:38 Zheryn wrote: This seems to be true for most master players, it doesn't seem to be that of an effective stat. OK, I took a closer look and my earlier numbers were not right, although you'll see that the effectiveness of the stat remains strong. Restricting ourselves to 1v1 Ladder matches for which Spending Skill has been computed, there are 72 GGTracker players ranked 1v1 Masters who have played at least 10 1v1 Ladder games. Their average Spending Skill is 5.08, so slightly better than Masters, where 6.0 is Grandmaster average Spending Skill. Looking at all 1,493 battle.net accounts that are ranked 1v1 Masters and for which GGTracker has at least 10 1v1 Ladder matches, their average Spending Skill is 5.01, so the calibration is pretty darn good! It's pretty interesting to look at the players who are ranked 1v1 Masters but have sub-Plat Spending Skill. They seem to be specialists in doing enough damage with an early army to make up for their relatively poor macro. "Winning ugly"? | ||
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Bratsche
United States46 Posts
The two games linked below, the icon ascribed to my spending skill is bronze, while the corresponding number is above bronze. http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/617359 http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/608760 Just an FYI. Your site is awesome. Keep it up! | ||
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On January 08 2013 02:33 Bratsche wrote: Maybe this is a bug, maybe it isn't, but... The two games linked below, the icon ascribed to my spending skill is bronze, while the corresponding number is above bronze. http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/617359 This match was 5 minutes, 51 seconds. Although on the web it shows that as 6 minutes, for the purposes of computing Spending Skill we throw out the seconds and call it 5 minutes. I agree that's totally confusing and we'll fix it. For 5 minute games, Spending Skill is kinda borked -- as a Protoss you'd have to get a 91 SQ, at which point you get labeled as GM for that game. Probably I should eliminate Spending Skill entirely for 5-minute games. This is a 6 minute 8 second game. According to the Spending Skill Stats for AM Protoss you gotta hit an SQ of 83 to be Bronze *average*. On the plus side, you won this game! :D :D Just an FYI. Your site is awesome. Keep it up! Thank you! The encouragement means a lot to me. | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4544 Posts
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Bratsche
United States46 Posts
On January 08 2013 02:52 dsjoerg wrote: This match was 5 minutes, 51 seconds. Although on the web it shows that as 6 minutes, for the purposes of computing Spending Skill we throw out the seconds and call it 5 minutes. I agree that's totally confusing and we'll fix it. For 5 minute games, Spending Skill is kinda borked -- as a Protoss you'd have to get a 91 SQ, at which point you get labeled as GM for that game. Probably I should eliminate Spending Skill entirely for 5-minute games. This is a 6 minute 8 second game. According to the Spending Skill Stats for AM Protoss you gotta hit an SQ of 83 to be Bronze *average*. On the plus side, you won this game! :D :D Thank you! The encouragement means a lot to me. Ah I see. Thanks for the info about the super short games! | ||
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On January 08 2013 02:33 Bratsche wrote: Maybe this is a bug, maybe it isn't, but... The two games linked below, the icon ascribed to my spending skill is bronze, while the corresponding number is above bronze. http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/617359 http://www.ggtracker.com/matches/608760 Just an FYI. Your site is awesome. Keep it up! Inspired by this problem, I've updated the stats, as we have nearly double the number of matches since they were first posted. I also fixed a mistake that affected short matches -- I was excluding from the stats all matches with a resource collection rate (RCR) less than 600. For 5- or 6-minute games, this is not good because the average RCR for a 5-minute game is 414! You will now see much saner stats on the short end of the curve. In other news, I'm gathering Korean games... in about two weeks will probably have enough to present sensible stats. | ||
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liberal
1116 Posts
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On January 07 2013 05:58 Jomppa wrote: What happens that time? Thanks for pointing this out, now that we have >2x as much data, the problem has gone away: http://ggtracker.com/spending_skill_stats#?race=terran&gateway=am | ||
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WeedRa
Germany815 Posts
On December 19 2012 14:18 Thienan567 wrote: You know what that means. Terrans have better macro -> more skill -> other races are for noobs :p I think you dont know what youre talking about | ||
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
On January 08 2013 01:04 dsjoerg wrote: .. Now that the flair is visible, have a look and let me know if this works for you? Great! Some further feedback. It doesn't really bother me but maybe it helps to fix some bugs: This match is buggy. The opponent's army is missing/ mirrored. I did some research and did find out that my opponent recently changed his name: http://ggtracker.com/matches/713844 When i am opening a side i see the programing code for a split second. race macro is not working for me (protoss) right now. | ||
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On January 08 2013 04:16 OrbitalPlane wrote: Great! Some further feedback. It doesn't really bother me but maybe it helps to fix some bugs: This match is buggy. The opponent's army is missing/ mirrored. I did some research and did find out that my opponent recently changed his name: http://ggtracker.com/matches/713844 Thanks! That's definitely a bug, havent seen that before. When i am opening a side i see the programing code for a split second. Yeah it's a little gross. Is it endearing at all? I'll fix it after adding HotS support race macro is not working for me (protoss) right now. Currently we only have race macro for Zerg. My colleague is working on it for the other races. | ||
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StarGalaxy
Germany744 Posts
i have the feeling that my chrono boost spending is pretty terrible after the early mid game. I have no idea how to translate that: "Is it endearing at all?" :D But like i said the code doesn't bother me. I only wrote it in case you didn't know about it. | ||
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Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
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Natalya
Belgium287 Posts
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On January 08 2013 06:20 Natalya wrote: Can anyone tell what worker wave per minute is? Maybe a wave is when i make workers, stop making them then restart worker production? So that a worker wave per minute should be low to be good? (= never stopping to produce worker) "Worker waves per minute" is designed to be a close approximation of "workers built per minute". It is OK for Protoss and Terran, and pretty bad for Zergs. I wish we could measure the # of workers you build per minute. Unfortunately that is not possible, because the replay doesn't contain that information. The replay only contains your worker-build commands, which sometimes fail due to lack of resources. A "worker wave" is a group of worker-build commands with no more than three seconds between them. So if you spam the worker-build command, it still only counts as one worker wave. For more info and discussion, here is the original thread about "Worker waves per minute". Now that GGTracker can capture your Income throughout the game, I think that is arguably more useful than knowing your # of workers. I plan on adding more stats about Income to GGTracker in the coming months. | ||
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Typhoon1789
Australia292 Posts
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EliteSK
Korea (South)251 Posts
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
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dsjoerg
United States384 Posts
On January 08 2013 04:16 OrbitalPlane wrote: This match is buggy. The opponent's army is missing/ mirrored. I did some research and did find out that my opponent recently changed his name: http://ggtracker.com/matches/713844 BOOM that bug is fixed, thank you for letting me know! | ||
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