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On December 15 2012 13:31 BigBossX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 13:03 kaokentake wrote:
i extremely, extremely, extremely absolutely disagree with the OP
i believe if league of legends was never created, SC2 would be much bigger right now. an easier game that managed (credit to riot) to completely knock blizzard the F out when it came to doing the right thing and promoting their game and PAYING OUT OF THEIR POCKET to run massive tournaments and provide prize pools is what killed sc2
normally, a lowskill game like LoL would never be able to actually develop a semi-huge pro scene and thrive to compete with something beautiful like sc2. but the truth is for a game like league, once a pro scene gets started it would inevitably destroy sc2 because league is such a easy casual game
the same energy that gives success to mcdonalds and walmart is the same energy that gives success to the LoL pro scene, the fact that casuals run the world
back during the first big early SC2 showings at IPL and MLG (sort of around the era of MMA defeating MVP at GSL finals at blizzcon) SC2 was at its hugest state imo. I remember when league of legends first appeared in the IPL and MLG alongside SC2, and sc2 fans found it to be absolutely hilarious how such a boring-to-watch noskill game was plague'ing us between our great SC2 matches of skill
league is the kind of game that once the semi-large pro scene is created, it will grow and spiral out of control into a monstrosity and overtake SC2, yet still league could have never actually created a original semi-large pro scene without riots help so kudos to riot for doing it.
the reason league could never get its own startpoint semi-large pro scene by itself with just the power of the game is because of the joke factor. it was just incredibly stupid and boring to watch league of legends when the pro scene first was starting up, the skill level was laughable compared to something as demanding as SC2.
but with riots help league was able to create an initial semi-large pro scene, and once that was created the nature of league as a game would propel it into superspeed
you see the reason i said a game like league could never get a real pro scene is because it was just plain boring and laughable to watch compared to the sc2. watching league is boring as sin and just doesnt have enough entertainment factor to give people a "purpose" to watch in the early pro scene stages compared to something like starcraft.
starcrafts pro scene quickly grew massively to a huge peak (ill say MMA vs idra where mma killed his own command center and the following MLG are showings of the huge early peak of sc2) and Sc2 reached that massive peak just on the game itself because it was a very skill demanding game and entertaining to watch.
the fact that sc2 is so entertaining is a reason why its not likely to completely die off anytime soon
but football on some levels is boring to watch. every sport is boring at some level. theres another aspect of viewing sports that makes it entertaining and thats the "fanboy / fangirl" factor and the "underdog / top dog" factor where people wanna see "whos the best" and who beats who and people emotionally invest into their favorite teams/players and that causes viewership to increase instead of actually watching for the entertaining or high skill factor of the game.
So that is one energy that SC2 and LoL both feed off of (the energy of fans getting emotionally invested into their favorite teams or players)
however the difference is because RIOT was able to pay to start up their own self funded pro scene, what happened was UNLIKE sc2 pro scene, league of legends is actually a extremely casual and low-stress game that tons of casuals can play and not feel stressed while playing.
so unlike SC2 which had most of its early highpeak viewership energy fueled by people who watch for the highskill factor and awe of the game that the pros are so good at a game that is so incredibly hard and challenging to play and many people dont even play much sc2 but still watched it
league of legends pro scene was able to feed on the energy that their game is extremely casual friendly so now millions of casuals could watch the sport AND play the game and its fairly fun to play meaning the pro scene would spread quickly because more people would want to play and watch the pro scene and share the game with friends. so league viewership numbers massively increased because that casual factor is just so powerful because its something they do so its interesting to them to watch even though the end entertainment product in all honestly is complete shit compared to sc2, the casuals will still watch it and their emotional investment into the whole process and seeing their favorite team win causes them to be blind to the fact that the product they are viewing with their eyes is trash. in fact some of them know its trash but it doesnt matter because theres still a high entertainment factor in just the emotional investment into the teams. for example dane cooks comedy is terrible yet he still sells out massive venues because his fans are there for the emotional investment
remember i said "semi-large" pro scene. league of legends is eclipsing dota 2 and sc2 at the moment. Sc2 grew to a massive peak by itself to something much larger than dota could ever be just through the games sheer amazing skill / entertainment factor. the dota scene sure was big in asia, but i would still consider it smaller than semi-large, and it was smaller than SC2's peak.
the high peak of SC2 is what i consider to be nearing the toplevel of a "semi-large" pro scene, and league of legends was able to reach that semi-large status and shine alongside SC2 thanks to riots help, and now league has blown past that semi-large status (due to it being such a casual friendly game) and sc2 has slightly become weaker. right now sc2 is still semi-large but league has grown into something even more powerful.
I still suspect that sc2 wont die anytime soon however because it is still as a product, superior to LoL. but the power of the casual side is strong, and the casual side fuels LoL with a nearly unstoppable energy. i cry thinking about how big this crap game is going to become I honestly don't know what the fuck I just read. So you are basically saying LoL is killing SC2, even though SC2 is the much much better game, but LoL is so casual friendly it attracts more fans? Honestly? This is so dumb it physically hurts. Guess what, Brood War was massively unfriendly to casual players (for 1v1s), much much more mechanically demanding than StarCraft 2 will EVER be and still managed to get a huuuuuge fan base, even though there were arguably easier, more casual friendly games available Brood War thrived regardless.
One word: UMS
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I think I agree with his views on the market saturation, but even more important is the somewhat dull meta game. Ideally every game should be intense from relatively early on until finish. Not just an all in killing someone helplessly or both players passively macroing until a 200 vs 200 battle decides the game (which seems to make up alot of games). We do get some awesome series but we also get some straight up boring games.
I'm sure the master minds at Blizzard have more insight as to why this happens and they should probably just trust in their own abilities to craft a game with exciting potential. I'll say this, in BW and war3 big tournaments like WCG (yes that was big once lol) IEM, blizzcon, and all the korean run leagues were always EPIC. Now that there is so much constant content floating around it's hard to get excited over it all.
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On December 15 2012 13:03 kaokentake wrote:
i extremely, extremely, extremely absolutely disagree with the OP
i believe if league of legends was never created, SC2 would be much bigger right now. an easier game that managed (credit to riot) to completely knock blizzard the F out when it came to doing the right thing and promoting their game and PAYING OUT OF THEIR POCKET to run massive tournaments and provide prize pools is what killed sc2
normally, a lowskill game like LoL would never be able to actually develop a semi-huge pro scene and thrive to compete with something beautiful like sc2. but the truth is for a game like league, once a pro scene gets started it would inevitably destroy sc2 because league is such a easy casual game
the same energy that gives success to mcdonalds and walmart is the same energy that gives success to the LoL pro scene, the fact that casuals run the world
back during the first big early SC2 showings at IPL and MLG (sort of around the era of MMA defeating MVP at GSL finals at blizzcon) SC2 was at its hugest state imo. I remember when league of legends first appeared in the IPL and MLG alongside SC2, and sc2 fans found it to be absolutely hilarious how such a boring-to-watch noskill game was plague'ing us between our great SC2 matches of skill
league is the kind of game that once the semi-large pro scene is created, it will grow and spiral out of control into a monstrosity and overtake SC2, yet still league could have never actually created a original semi-large pro scene without riots help so kudos to riot for doing it.
the reason league could never get its own startpoint semi-large pro scene by itself with just the power of the game is because of the joke factor. it was just incredibly stupid and boring to watch league of legends when the pro scene first was starting up, the skill level was laughable compared to something as demanding as SC2.
but with riots help league was able to create an initial semi-large pro scene, and once that was created the nature of league as a game would propel it into superspeed
you see the reason i said a game like league could never get a real pro scene is because it was just plain boring and laughable to watch compared to the sc2. watching league is boring as sin and just doesnt have enough entertainment factor to give people a "purpose" to watch in the early pro scene stages compared to something like starcraft.
starcrafts pro scene quickly grew massively to a huge peak (ill say MMA vs idra where mma killed his own command center and the following MLG are showings of the huge early peak of sc2) and Sc2 reached that massive peak just on the game itself because it was a very skill demanding game and entertaining to watch.
the fact that sc2 is so entertaining is a reason why its not likely to completely die off anytime soon
but football on some levels is boring to watch. every sport is boring at some level. theres another aspect of viewing sports that makes it entertaining and thats the "fanboy / fangirl" factor and the "underdog / top dog" factor where people wanna see "whos the best" and who beats who and people emotionally invest into their favorite teams/players and that causes viewership to increase instead of actually watching for the entertaining or high skill factor of the game.
So that is one energy that SC2 and LoL both feed off of (the energy of fans getting emotionally invested into their favorite teams or players)
however the difference is because RIOT was able to pay to start up their own self funded pro scene, what happened was UNLIKE sc2 pro scene, league of legends is actually a extremely casual and low-stress game that tons of casuals can play and not feel stressed while playing.
so unlike SC2 which had most of its early highpeak viewership energy fueled by people who watch for the highskill factor and awe of the game that the pros are so good at a game that is so incredibly hard and challenging to play and many people dont even play much sc2 but still watched it
league of legends pro scene was able to feed on the energy that their game is extremely casual friendly so now millions of casuals could watch the sport AND play the game and its fairly fun to play meaning the pro scene would spread quickly because more people would want to play and watch the pro scene and share the game with friends. so league viewership numbers massively increased because that casual factor is just so powerful because its something they do so its interesting to them to watch even though the end entertainment product in all honestly is complete shit compared to sc2, the casuals will still watch it and their emotional investment into the whole process and seeing their favorite team win causes them to be blind to the fact that the product they are viewing with their eyes is trash. in fact some of them know its trash but it doesnt matter because theres still a high entertainment factor in just the emotional investment into the teams. for example dane cooks comedy is terrible yet he still sells out massive venues because his fans are there for the emotional investment
remember i said "semi-large" pro scene. league of legends is eclipsing dota 2 and sc2 at the moment. Sc2 grew to a massive peak by itself to something much larger than dota could ever be just through the games sheer amazing skill / entertainment factor. the dota scene sure was big in asia, but i would still consider it smaller than semi-large, and it was smaller than SC2's peak.
the high peak of SC2 is what i consider to be nearing the toplevel of a "semi-large" pro scene, and league of legends was able to reach that semi-large status and shine alongside SC2 thanks to riots help, and now league has blown past that semi-large status (due to it being such a casual friendly game) and sc2 has slightly become weaker. right now sc2 is still semi-large but league has grown into something even more powerful.
I still suspect that sc2 wont die anytime soon however because it is still as a product, superior to LoL. but the power of the casual side is strong, and the casual side fuels LoL with a nearly unstoppable energy. i cry thinking about how big this crap game is going to become
LoL is a casual game? I was GM on NA and SEA when I switched from sc2 to LoL, right now on LoL I'm not even close to being good only 1800 rating. It is 10x harder to be a professional LoL player than sc2, and LoL is not stress free, it is much more stressful because you play with 4 other people, and you can't correct their mistakes for them.
There is no skill cap on LoL like sc2 players like to mention, if there was a skill cap the NA and EU teams would be superior to Koreans but they are not. LoL in Korea has only been around for 1 year now, but they have already changed the meta so much.
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Need less content honestly. Gets people hyped up for the tournaments and leaves more practise time for gameplay to be even more refined.
We see less of the same things too and don't get bored of the meta game.
If anyone truly wants to support E-Sports, then don't sponsor tournaments but teams that pay salaries instead. That is why i think Kespa handled it so well. Every tournament was such a huge thing. Now, an IPL win or a MLG win does not seem to be as valued.
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On December 15 2012 14:21 SuperFanBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 13:03 kaokentake wrote:
i extremely, extremely, extremely absolutely disagree with the OP
i believe if league of legends was never created, SC2 would be much bigger right now. an easier game that managed (credit to riot) to completely knock blizzard the F out when it came to doing the right thing and promoting their game and PAYING OUT OF THEIR POCKET to run massive tournaments and provide prize pools is what killed sc2
normally, a lowskill game like LoL would never be able to actually develop a semi-huge pro scene and thrive to compete with something beautiful like sc2. but the truth is for a game like league, once a pro scene gets started it would inevitably destroy sc2 because league is such a easy casual game
the same energy that gives success to mcdonalds and walmart is the same energy that gives success to the LoL pro scene, the fact that casuals run the world
back during the first big early SC2 showings at IPL and MLG (sort of around the era of MMA defeating MVP at GSL finals at blizzcon) SC2 was at its hugest state imo. I remember when league of legends first appeared in the IPL and MLG alongside SC2, and sc2 fans found it to be absolutely hilarious how such a boring-to-watch noskill game was plague'ing us between our great SC2 matches of skill
league is the kind of game that once the semi-large pro scene is created, it will grow and spiral out of control into a monstrosity and overtake SC2, yet still league could have never actually created a original semi-large pro scene without riots help so kudos to riot for doing it.
the reason league could never get its own startpoint semi-large pro scene by itself with just the power of the game is because of the joke factor. it was just incredibly stupid and boring to watch league of legends when the pro scene first was starting up, the skill level was laughable compared to something as demanding as SC2.
but with riots help league was able to create an initial semi-large pro scene, and once that was created the nature of league as a game would propel it into superspeed
you see the reason i said a game like league could never get a real pro scene is because it was just plain boring and laughable to watch compared to the sc2. watching league is boring as sin and just doesnt have enough entertainment factor to give people a "purpose" to watch in the early pro scene stages compared to something like starcraft.
starcrafts pro scene quickly grew massively to a huge peak (ill say MMA vs idra where mma killed his own command center and the following MLG are showings of the huge early peak of sc2) and Sc2 reached that massive peak just on the game itself because it was a very skill demanding game and entertaining to watch.
the fact that sc2 is so entertaining is a reason why its not likely to completely die off anytime soon
but football on some levels is boring to watch. every sport is boring at some level. theres another aspect of viewing sports that makes it entertaining and thats the "fanboy / fangirl" factor and the "underdog / top dog" factor where people wanna see "whos the best" and who beats who and people emotionally invest into their favorite teams/players and that causes viewership to increase instead of actually watching for the entertaining or high skill factor of the game.
So that is one energy that SC2 and LoL both feed off of (the energy of fans getting emotionally invested into their favorite teams or players)
however the difference is because RIOT was able to pay to start up their own self funded pro scene, what happened was UNLIKE sc2 pro scene, league of legends is actually a extremely casual and low-stress game that tons of casuals can play and not feel stressed while playing.
so unlike SC2 which had most of its early highpeak viewership energy fueled by people who watch for the highskill factor and awe of the game that the pros are so good at a game that is so incredibly hard and challenging to play and many people dont even play much sc2 but still watched it
league of legends pro scene was able to feed on the energy that their game is extremely casual friendly so now millions of casuals could watch the sport AND play the game and its fairly fun to play meaning the pro scene would spread quickly because more people would want to play and watch the pro scene and share the game with friends. so league viewership numbers massively increased because that casual factor is just so powerful because its something they do so its interesting to them to watch even though the end entertainment product in all honestly is complete shit compared to sc2, the casuals will still watch it and their emotional investment into the whole process and seeing their favorite team win causes them to be blind to the fact that the product they are viewing with their eyes is trash. in fact some of them know its trash but it doesnt matter because theres still a high entertainment factor in just the emotional investment into the teams. for example dane cooks comedy is terrible yet he still sells out massive venues because his fans are there for the emotional investment
remember i said "semi-large" pro scene. league of legends is eclipsing dota 2 and sc2 at the moment. Sc2 grew to a massive peak by itself to something much larger than dota could ever be just through the games sheer amazing skill / entertainment factor. the dota scene sure was big in asia, but i would still consider it smaller than semi-large, and it was smaller than SC2's peak.
the high peak of SC2 is what i consider to be nearing the toplevel of a "semi-large" pro scene, and league of legends was able to reach that semi-large status and shine alongside SC2 thanks to riots help, and now league has blown past that semi-large status (due to it being such a casual friendly game) and sc2 has slightly become weaker. right now sc2 is still semi-large but league has grown into something even more powerful.
I still suspect that sc2 wont die anytime soon however because it is still as a product, superior to LoL. but the power of the casual side is strong, and the casual side fuels LoL with a nearly unstoppable energy. i cry thinking about how big this crap game is going to become LoL is a casual game? I was GM on NA and SEA when I switched from sc2 to LoL, right now on LoL I'm not even close to being good only 1800 rating. It is 10x harder to be a professional LoL player than sc2, and LoL is not stress free, it is much more stressful because you play with 4 other people, and you can't correct their mistakes for them. There is no skill cap on LoL like sc2 players like to mention, if there was a skill cap the NA and EU teams would be superior to Koreans but they are not. LoL in Korea has only been around for 1 year now, but they have already changed the meta so much.
Hmm that because LoL is a team game therefore it not just you that is contributing to the win, it is your team. Saying that LoL is harder play isnt true. Even if you are GM, it doesnt mean anything because people can just cheese to GM. Both game are hard in their own way but Sc2 difficulty is much more easier to spot because you (yourself) is the defining factor that will contribute to the win.
WHile LoL depends on your team mate and their team mate and good communication. LoL you need 1/2 the APM require in Sc2 and just need to control 1 character but no matter how good you are, you can be stuck in 1500 ELO forever if you have shit luck with team mate. I would believe that LoL takes less skill but require insane amount of communication or coordination overall so the difficulty probably end up being the same.
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I was talking about this with friends a few weeks ago - I think that to cure the oversaturation problem, we really need to see a true partnership between MLG and Dreamhack (and GSL) and all the other leagues, so that instead of a Dreamhack/MLG/IPL 4 times a year, you have a Dreamhack spring, MLG summer, NASL fall, and IPL winter. That, + Kespa and Gom working together properly to make sure their content doesn't overlap I think would be REALLY good for the game.
It's like we have 4 NFL's right now 
On December 15 2012 15:16 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 14:21 SuperFanBoy wrote:On December 15 2012 13:03 kaokentake wrote:
i extremely, extremely, extremely absolutely disagree with the OP
i believe if league of legends was never created, SC2 would be much bigger right now. an easier game that managed (credit to riot) to completely knock blizzard the F out when it came to doing the right thing and promoting their game and PAYING OUT OF THEIR POCKET to run massive tournaments and provide prize pools is what killed sc2
normally, a lowskill game like LoL would never be able to actually develop a semi-huge pro scene and thrive to compete with something beautiful like sc2. but the truth is for a game like league, once a pro scene gets started it would inevitably destroy sc2 because league is such a easy casual game
the same energy that gives success to mcdonalds and walmart is the same energy that gives success to the LoL pro scene, the fact that casuals run the world
back during the first big early SC2 showings at IPL and MLG (sort of around the era of MMA defeating MVP at GSL finals at blizzcon) SC2 was at its hugest state imo. I remember when league of legends first appeared in the IPL and MLG alongside SC2, and sc2 fans found it to be absolutely hilarious how such a boring-to-watch noskill game was plague'ing us between our great SC2 matches of skill
league is the kind of game that once the semi-large pro scene is created, it will grow and spiral out of control into a monstrosity and overtake SC2, yet still league could have never actually created a original semi-large pro scene without riots help so kudos to riot for doing it.
the reason league could never get its own startpoint semi-large pro scene by itself with just the power of the game is because of the joke factor. it was just incredibly stupid and boring to watch league of legends when the pro scene first was starting up, the skill level was laughable compared to something as demanding as SC2.
but with riots help league was able to create an initial semi-large pro scene, and once that was created the nature of league as a game would propel it into superspeed
you see the reason i said a game like league could never get a real pro scene is because it was just plain boring and laughable to watch compared to the sc2. watching league is boring as sin and just doesnt have enough entertainment factor to give people a "purpose" to watch in the early pro scene stages compared to something like starcraft.
starcrafts pro scene quickly grew massively to a huge peak (ill say MMA vs idra where mma killed his own command center and the following MLG are showings of the huge early peak of sc2) and Sc2 reached that massive peak just on the game itself because it was a very skill demanding game and entertaining to watch.
the fact that sc2 is so entertaining is a reason why its not likely to completely die off anytime soon
but football on some levels is boring to watch. every sport is boring at some level. theres another aspect of viewing sports that makes it entertaining and thats the "fanboy / fangirl" factor and the "underdog / top dog" factor where people wanna see "whos the best" and who beats who and people emotionally invest into their favorite teams/players and that causes viewership to increase instead of actually watching for the entertaining or high skill factor of the game.
So that is one energy that SC2 and LoL both feed off of (the energy of fans getting emotionally invested into their favorite teams or players)
however the difference is because RIOT was able to pay to start up their own self funded pro scene, what happened was UNLIKE sc2 pro scene, league of legends is actually a extremely casual and low-stress game that tons of casuals can play and not feel stressed while playing.
so unlike SC2 which had most of its early highpeak viewership energy fueled by people who watch for the highskill factor and awe of the game that the pros are so good at a game that is so incredibly hard and challenging to play and many people dont even play much sc2 but still watched it
league of legends pro scene was able to feed on the energy that their game is extremely casual friendly so now millions of casuals could watch the sport AND play the game and its fairly fun to play meaning the pro scene would spread quickly because more people would want to play and watch the pro scene and share the game with friends. so league viewership numbers massively increased because that casual factor is just so powerful because its something they do so its interesting to them to watch even though the end entertainment product in all honestly is complete shit compared to sc2, the casuals will still watch it and their emotional investment into the whole process and seeing their favorite team win causes them to be blind to the fact that the product they are viewing with their eyes is trash. in fact some of them know its trash but it doesnt matter because theres still a high entertainment factor in just the emotional investment into the teams. for example dane cooks comedy is terrible yet he still sells out massive venues because his fans are there for the emotional investment
remember i said "semi-large" pro scene. league of legends is eclipsing dota 2 and sc2 at the moment. Sc2 grew to a massive peak by itself to something much larger than dota could ever be just through the games sheer amazing skill / entertainment factor. the dota scene sure was big in asia, but i would still consider it smaller than semi-large, and it was smaller than SC2's peak.
the high peak of SC2 is what i consider to be nearing the toplevel of a "semi-large" pro scene, and league of legends was able to reach that semi-large status and shine alongside SC2 thanks to riots help, and now league has blown past that semi-large status (due to it being such a casual friendly game) and sc2 has slightly become weaker. right now sc2 is still semi-large but league has grown into something even more powerful.
I still suspect that sc2 wont die anytime soon however because it is still as a product, superior to LoL. but the power of the casual side is strong, and the casual side fuels LoL with a nearly unstoppable energy. i cry thinking about how big this crap game is going to become LoL is a casual game? I was GM on NA and SEA when I switched from sc2 to LoL, right now on LoL I'm not even close to being good only 1800 rating. It is 10x harder to be a professional LoL player than sc2, and LoL is not stress free, it is much more stressful because you play with 4 other people, and you can't correct their mistakes for them. There is no skill cap on LoL like sc2 players like to mention, if there was a skill cap the NA and EU teams would be superior to Koreans but they are not. LoL in Korea has only been around for 1 year now, but they have already changed the meta so much. Hmm that because LoL is a team game therefore it not just you that is contributing to the win, it is your team. Saying that LoL is harder play isnt true. Even if you are GM, it doesnt mean anything because people can just cheese to GM. Both game are hard in their own way but Sc2 difficulty is much more easier to spot because you (yourself) is the defining factor that will contribute to the win. WHile LoL depends on your team mate and their team mate and good communication. LoL you need 1/2 the APM require in Sc2 and just need to control 1 character but no matter how good you are, you can be stuck in 1500 ELO forever if you have shit luck with team mate. I would believe that LoL takes less skill but require insane amount of communication or coordination overall so the difficulty probably end up being the same.
Each game is difficult in different ways. The mechanics for starcraft 2 are 100% harder than LoL, just like the mechancis for Dota 2 are also way harder than LoL, simply because there are more mechanics, haha. But there is also a side of tactics and communication that make it difficult to be genuinely good.
I think that the best way to sum it up, is that League of Legends is an easy game to play, but a hard game to cooperate in/win in.
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On December 15 2012 14:08 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 13:31 BigBossX wrote:On December 15 2012 13:03 kaokentake wrote:
i extremely, extremely, extremely absolutely disagree with the OP
i believe if league of legends was never created, SC2 would be much bigger right now. an easier game that managed (credit to riot) to completely knock blizzard the F out when it came to doing the right thing and promoting their game and PAYING OUT OF THEIR POCKET to run massive tournaments and provide prize pools is what killed sc2
normally, a lowskill game like LoL would never be able to actually develop a semi-huge pro scene and thrive to compete with something beautiful like sc2. but the truth is for a game like league, once a pro scene gets started it would inevitably destroy sc2 because league is such a easy casual game
the same energy that gives success to mcdonalds and walmart is the same energy that gives success to the LoL pro scene, the fact that casuals run the world
back during the first big early SC2 showings at IPL and MLG (sort of around the era of MMA defeating MVP at GSL finals at blizzcon) SC2 was at its hugest state imo. I remember when league of legends first appeared in the IPL and MLG alongside SC2, and sc2 fans found it to be absolutely hilarious how such a boring-to-watch noskill game was plague'ing us between our great SC2 matches of skill
league is the kind of game that once the semi-large pro scene is created, it will grow and spiral out of control into a monstrosity and overtake SC2, yet still league could have never actually created a original semi-large pro scene without riots help so kudos to riot for doing it.
the reason league could never get its own startpoint semi-large pro scene by itself with just the power of the game is because of the joke factor. it was just incredibly stupid and boring to watch league of legends when the pro scene first was starting up, the skill level was laughable compared to something as demanding as SC2.
but with riots help league was able to create an initial semi-large pro scene, and once that was created the nature of league as a game would propel it into superspeed
you see the reason i said a game like league could never get a real pro scene is because it was just plain boring and laughable to watch compared to the sc2. watching league is boring as sin and just doesnt have enough entertainment factor to give people a "purpose" to watch in the early pro scene stages compared to something like starcraft.
starcrafts pro scene quickly grew massively to a huge peak (ill say MMA vs idra where mma killed his own command center and the following MLG are showings of the huge early peak of sc2) and Sc2 reached that massive peak just on the game itself because it was a very skill demanding game and entertaining to watch.
the fact that sc2 is so entertaining is a reason why its not likely to completely die off anytime soon
but football on some levels is boring to watch. every sport is boring at some level. theres another aspect of viewing sports that makes it entertaining and thats the "fanboy / fangirl" factor and the "underdog / top dog" factor where people wanna see "whos the best" and who beats who and people emotionally invest into their favorite teams/players and that causes viewership to increase instead of actually watching for the entertaining or high skill factor of the game.
So that is one energy that SC2 and LoL both feed off of (the energy of fans getting emotionally invested into their favorite teams or players)
however the difference is because RIOT was able to pay to start up their own self funded pro scene, what happened was UNLIKE sc2 pro scene, league of legends is actually a extremely casual and low-stress game that tons of casuals can play and not feel stressed while playing.
so unlike SC2 which had most of its early highpeak viewership energy fueled by people who watch for the highskill factor and awe of the game that the pros are so good at a game that is so incredibly hard and challenging to play and many people dont even play much sc2 but still watched it
league of legends pro scene was able to feed on the energy that their game is extremely casual friendly so now millions of casuals could watch the sport AND play the game and its fairly fun to play meaning the pro scene would spread quickly because more people would want to play and watch the pro scene and share the game with friends. so league viewership numbers massively increased because that casual factor is just so powerful because its something they do so its interesting to them to watch even though the end entertainment product in all honestly is complete shit compared to sc2, the casuals will still watch it and their emotional investment into the whole process and seeing their favorite team win causes them to be blind to the fact that the product they are viewing with their eyes is trash. in fact some of them know its trash but it doesnt matter because theres still a high entertainment factor in just the emotional investment into the teams. for example dane cooks comedy is terrible yet he still sells out massive venues because his fans are there for the emotional investment
remember i said "semi-large" pro scene. league of legends is eclipsing dota 2 and sc2 at the moment. Sc2 grew to a massive peak by itself to something much larger than dota could ever be just through the games sheer amazing skill / entertainment factor. the dota scene sure was big in asia, but i would still consider it smaller than semi-large, and it was smaller than SC2's peak.
the high peak of SC2 is what i consider to be nearing the toplevel of a "semi-large" pro scene, and league of legends was able to reach that semi-large status and shine alongside SC2 thanks to riots help, and now league has blown past that semi-large status (due to it being such a casual friendly game) and sc2 has slightly become weaker. right now sc2 is still semi-large but league has grown into something even more powerful.
I still suspect that sc2 wont die anytime soon however because it is still as a product, superior to LoL. but the power of the casual side is strong, and the casual side fuels LoL with a nearly unstoppable energy. i cry thinking about how big this crap game is going to become I honestly don't know what the fuck I just read. So you are basically saying LoL is killing SC2, even though SC2 is the much much better game, but LoL is so casual friendly it attracts more fans? Honestly? This is so dumb it physically hurts. Guess what, Brood War was massively unfriendly to casual players (for 1v1s), much much more mechanically demanding than StarCraft 2 will EVER be and still managed to get a huuuuuge fan base, even though there were arguably easier, more casual friendly games available Brood War thrived regardless. One word: UMS
Evolves and Golems were so fun
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The only people that need a reality check are the one's "running" the scene. Make a product worth putting up with and organize it well. Don't sit and bitch and tell the community they just don't "understand" when they refuse to put up with a shitty design.
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oversupply would NOT decrease the total demand in the market.
It's a flawed argument to blame the lowering viewership number onto the over saturation.
It's just the game fails to attract new comers and boring out some people due to the developed metagame is stablised.
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Over saturation and boring game play are both killing the sc2 viewership.
Free market does not apply to sc2 tournaments because players are not locked down under contract. Players have the right to participate in any of the available leagues and are not restricted to anyone of them. You wont see NBA players such as lebron james playing in EU, Asia and the NBA at the same time. Infact, the NBA is considering making the Olympic tournament 21 and under to keep NBA players from playing in anything else other than the NBA. In order to make all these leagues more interesting and more connected, blizzard should indeed follow the golf/tennis format and bring all the leagues together once a year like EU soccer in an international cup along side WCG.
The game play of sc2 is also boring when compare to sc bw. Too much ball vs ball, too much ball missing ball leading to base trade, too little diversity in the builds in each match up.
The one organization that have direct control over these issues is Blizzard. But they are mostly only interested in game sell and rarely do they make major move in esport. This is why games like LOL and Dota2 are making waves here and there. Those games have strong supports from their game developer.
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On December 15 2012 15:16 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 14:21 SuperFanBoy wrote:On December 15 2012 13:03 kaokentake wrote:
i extremely, extremely, extremely absolutely disagree with the OP
i believe if league of legends was never created, SC2 would be much bigger right now. an easier game that managed (credit to riot) to completely knock blizzard the F out when it came to doing the right thing and promoting their game and PAYING OUT OF THEIR POCKET to run massive tournaments and provide prize pools is what killed sc2
normally, a lowskill game like LoL would never be able to actually develop a semi-huge pro scene and thrive to compete with something beautiful like sc2. but the truth is for a game like league, once a pro scene gets started it would inevitably destroy sc2 because league is such a easy casual game
the same energy that gives success to mcdonalds and walmart is the same energy that gives success to the LoL pro scene, the fact that casuals run the world
back during the first big early SC2 showings at IPL and MLG (sort of around the era of MMA defeating MVP at GSL finals at blizzcon) SC2 was at its hugest state imo. I remember when league of legends first appeared in the IPL and MLG alongside SC2, and sc2 fans found it to be absolutely hilarious how such a boring-to-watch noskill game was plague'ing us between our great SC2 matches of skill
league is the kind of game that once the semi-large pro scene is created, it will grow and spiral out of control into a monstrosity and overtake SC2, yet still league could have never actually created a original semi-large pro scene without riots help so kudos to riot for doing it.
the reason league could never get its own startpoint semi-large pro scene by itself with just the power of the game is because of the joke factor. it was just incredibly stupid and boring to watch league of legends when the pro scene first was starting up, the skill level was laughable compared to something as demanding as SC2.
but with riots help league was able to create an initial semi-large pro scene, and once that was created the nature of league as a game would propel it into superspeed
you see the reason i said a game like league could never get a real pro scene is because it was just plain boring and laughable to watch compared to the sc2. watching league is boring as sin and just doesnt have enough entertainment factor to give people a "purpose" to watch in the early pro scene stages compared to something like starcraft.
starcrafts pro scene quickly grew massively to a huge peak (ill say MMA vs idra where mma killed his own command center and the following MLG are showings of the huge early peak of sc2) and Sc2 reached that massive peak just on the game itself because it was a very skill demanding game and entertaining to watch.
the fact that sc2 is so entertaining is a reason why its not likely to completely die off anytime soon
but football on some levels is boring to watch. every sport is boring at some level. theres another aspect of viewing sports that makes it entertaining and thats the "fanboy / fangirl" factor and the "underdog / top dog" factor where people wanna see "whos the best" and who beats who and people emotionally invest into their favorite teams/players and that causes viewership to increase instead of actually watching for the entertaining or high skill factor of the game.
So that is one energy that SC2 and LoL both feed off of (the energy of fans getting emotionally invested into their favorite teams or players)
however the difference is because RIOT was able to pay to start up their own self funded pro scene, what happened was UNLIKE sc2 pro scene, league of legends is actually a extremely casual and low-stress game that tons of casuals can play and not feel stressed while playing.
so unlike SC2 which had most of its early highpeak viewership energy fueled by people who watch for the highskill factor and awe of the game that the pros are so good at a game that is so incredibly hard and challenging to play and many people dont even play much sc2 but still watched it
league of legends pro scene was able to feed on the energy that their game is extremely casual friendly so now millions of casuals could watch the sport AND play the game and its fairly fun to play meaning the pro scene would spread quickly because more people would want to play and watch the pro scene and share the game with friends. so league viewership numbers massively increased because that casual factor is just so powerful because its something they do so its interesting to them to watch even though the end entertainment product in all honestly is complete shit compared to sc2, the casuals will still watch it and their emotional investment into the whole process and seeing their favorite team win causes them to be blind to the fact that the product they are viewing with their eyes is trash. in fact some of them know its trash but it doesnt matter because theres still a high entertainment factor in just the emotional investment into the teams. for example dane cooks comedy is terrible yet he still sells out massive venues because his fans are there for the emotional investment
remember i said "semi-large" pro scene. league of legends is eclipsing dota 2 and sc2 at the moment. Sc2 grew to a massive peak by itself to something much larger than dota could ever be just through the games sheer amazing skill / entertainment factor. the dota scene sure was big in asia, but i would still consider it smaller than semi-large, and it was smaller than SC2's peak.
the high peak of SC2 is what i consider to be nearing the toplevel of a "semi-large" pro scene, and league of legends was able to reach that semi-large status and shine alongside SC2 thanks to riots help, and now league has blown past that semi-large status (due to it being such a casual friendly game) and sc2 has slightly become weaker. right now sc2 is still semi-large but league has grown into something even more powerful.
I still suspect that sc2 wont die anytime soon however because it is still as a product, superior to LoL. but the power of the casual side is strong, and the casual side fuels LoL with a nearly unstoppable energy. i cry thinking about how big this crap game is going to become LoL is a casual game? I was GM on NA and SEA when I switched from sc2 to LoL, right now on LoL I'm not even close to being good only 1800 rating. It is 10x harder to be a professional LoL player than sc2, and LoL is not stress free, it is much more stressful because you play with 4 other people, and you can't correct their mistakes for them. There is no skill cap on LoL like sc2 players like to mention, if there was a skill cap the NA and EU teams would be superior to Koreans but they are not. LoL in Korea has only been around for 1 year now, but they have already changed the meta so much. Hmm that because LoL is a team game therefore it not just you that is contributing to the win, it is your team. Saying that LoL is harder play isnt true. Even if you are GM, it doesnt mean anything because people can just cheese to GM. Both game are hard in their own way but Sc2 difficulty is much more easier to spot because you (yourself) is the defining factor that will contribute to the win. WHile LoL depends on your team mate and their team mate and good communication. LoL you need 1/2 the APM require in Sc2 and just need to control 1 character but no matter how good you are, you can be stuck in 1500 ELO forever if you have shit luck with team mate. I would believe that LoL takes less skill but require insane amount of communication or coordination overall so the difficulty probably end up being the same.
Just because a game is mechanically harder doesn't mean it's a harder game. If that is the case, then a construction job should be much harder than an accounting job, we should pay them more and promote physical jobs...
Different games require different skillsets. If SC2 is harder than LoL macro wise, you can say it's harder than LoL macro wise, you can't say SC2 is harder than LoL period. If you're a god in SC2, but you don't know how to communicate and pay attention to your team, you're not a god in LoL, that's it.
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In response to the massive wall-of-text, there was a huge demand for a LoL pro scene at the beginning of 2011, you had people like HotshotGG getting 20,000+ stream viewers and constant scrims between top NA teams but no tournaments. So Riot didn't create demand artificially, and while most of the LoL player-base is casual, there were a ton of players who wanted to watch and play it competitively even before Riot started throwing money at it.
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On December 15 2012 13:56 kaokentake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 13:31 BigBossX wrote:On December 15 2012 13:03 kaokentake wrote:
i extremely, extremely, extremely absolutely disagree with the OP
i believe if league of legends was never created, SC2 would be much bigger right now. an easier game that managed (credit to riot) to completely knock blizzard the F out when it came to doing the right thing and promoting their game and PAYING OUT OF THEIR POCKET to run massive tournaments and provide prize pools is what killed sc2
normally, a lowskill game like LoL would never be able to actually develop a semi-huge pro scene and thrive to compete with something beautiful like sc2. but the truth is for a game like league, once a pro scene gets started it would inevitably destroy sc2 because league is such a easy casual game
the same energy that gives success to mcdonalds and walmart is the same energy that gives success to the LoL pro scene, the fact that casuals run the world
back during the first big early SC2 showings at IPL and MLG (sort of around the era of MMA defeating MVP at GSL finals at blizzcon) SC2 was at its hugest state imo. I remember when league of legends first appeared in the IPL and MLG alongside SC2, and sc2 fans found it to be absolutely hilarious how such a boring-to-watch noskill game was plague'ing us between our great SC2 matches of skill
league is the kind of game that once the semi-large pro scene is created, it will grow and spiral out of control into a monstrosity and overtake SC2, yet still league could have never actually created a original semi-large pro scene without riots help so kudos to riot for doing it.
the reason league could never get its own startpoint semi-large pro scene by itself with just the power of the game is because of the joke factor. it was just incredibly stupid and boring to watch league of legends when the pro scene first was starting up, the skill level was laughable compared to something as demanding as SC2.
but with riots help league was able to create an initial semi-large pro scene, and once that was created the nature of league as a game would propel it into superspeed
you see the reason i said a game like league could never get a real pro scene is because it was just plain boring and laughable to watch compared to the sc2. watching league is boring as sin and just doesnt have enough entertainment factor to give people a "purpose" to watch in the early pro scene stages compared to something like starcraft.
starcrafts pro scene quickly grew massively to a huge peak (ill say MMA vs idra where mma killed his own command center and the following MLG are showings of the huge early peak of sc2) and Sc2 reached that massive peak just on the game itself because it was a very skill demanding game and entertaining to watch.
the fact that sc2 is so entertaining is a reason why its not likely to completely die off anytime soon
but football on some levels is boring to watch. every sport is boring at some level. theres another aspect of viewing sports that makes it entertaining and thats the "fanboy / fangirl" factor and the "underdog / top dog" factor where people wanna see "whos the best" and who beats who and people emotionally invest into their favorite teams/players and that causes viewership to increase instead of actually watching for the entertaining or high skill factor of the game.
So that is one energy that SC2 and LoL both feed off of (the energy of fans getting emotionally invested into their favorite teams or players)
however the difference is because RIOT was able to pay to start up their own self funded pro scene, what happened was UNLIKE sc2 pro scene, league of legends is actually a extremely casual and low-stress game that tons of casuals can play and not feel stressed while playing.
so unlike SC2 which had most of its early highpeak viewership energy fueled by people who watch for the highskill factor and awe of the game that the pros are so good at a game that is so incredibly hard and challenging to play and many people dont even play much sc2 but still watched it
league of legends pro scene was able to feed on the energy that their game is extremely casual friendly so now millions of casuals could watch the sport AND play the game and its fairly fun to play meaning the pro scene would spread quickly because more people would want to play and watch the pro scene and share the game with friends. so league viewership numbers massively increased because that casual factor is just so powerful because its something they do so its interesting to them to watch even though the end entertainment product in all honestly is complete shit compared to sc2, the casuals will still watch it and their emotional investment into the whole process and seeing their favorite team win causes them to be blind to the fact that the product they are viewing with their eyes is trash. in fact some of them know its trash but it doesnt matter because theres still a high entertainment factor in just the emotional investment into the teams. for example dane cooks comedy is terrible yet he still sells out massive venues because his fans are there for the emotional investment
remember i said "semi-large" pro scene. league of legends is eclipsing dota 2 and sc2 at the moment. Sc2 grew to a massive peak by itself to something much larger than dota could ever be just through the games sheer amazing skill / entertainment factor. the dota scene sure was big in asia, but i would still consider it smaller than semi-large, and it was smaller than SC2's peak.
the high peak of SC2 is what i consider to be nearing the toplevel of a "semi-large" pro scene, and league of legends was able to reach that semi-large status and shine alongside SC2 thanks to riots help, and now league has blown past that semi-large status (due to it being such a casual friendly game) and sc2 has slightly become weaker. right now sc2 is still semi-large but league has grown into something even more powerful.
I still suspect that sc2 wont die anytime soon however because it is still as a product, superior to LoL. but the power of the casual side is strong, and the casual side fuels LoL with a nearly unstoppable energy. i cry thinking about how big this crap game is going to become I honestly don't know what the fuck I just read. So you are basically saying LoL is killing SC2, even though SC2 is the much much better game, but LoL is so casual friendly it attracts more fans? Honestly? This is so dumb it physically hurts. Guess what, Brood War was massively unfriendly to casual players (for 1v1s), much much more mechanically demanding than StarCraft 2 will EVER be and still managed to get a huuuuuge fan base, even though there were arguably easier, more casual friendly games available Brood War thrived regardless. bw became huge for the reason sc2 became huge. extremely high skill required game so it was awe inspiring to watch even for people who didnt play because of the high skill factor but also, BW was FUN TO WATCH even just for pure entertainment, as a VISUAL product just for the eyes, BW had high entertainment value just from a visual standpoint (even moreso than LoL) i find really great SC2 games more visually (not just graphics, just game mechanics playing out on screen, just as in being more fun to watch) entertaining than BW. Its not __just__ about the skill, but moreso the entire product with all aspects combined as it comes together to present a entertainment option. SC2 and even BW are much superior products compared to LoL, but LoL is extremely casual friendly so once lol reached a semi-large scene it started a casual landslide, the power of the casual side fueled it into superdrive BW on the other hand, could never draw upon the energies of the casual side, so it never got that overdrive boost that LoL was able to get once BW reached a very large peak (i believe BW at its peak could also qualify as big enough to start the casual landslide , once a scene gets large enough the casual landslide will fuel it, and BW certainly became large enough but it was never casual friendly so the casual landslide couldnt do to BW what it did to LoL)
jalstar hit the mark and BWs popularity isn't just because it has a high skill ceiling. I think not only are you misunderstanding what others have wrote about other games but you're missing the finer details of why BW did as well as it did. You cannot just focus on one thing. You have to look at the bigger picture. What do I mean about this? Timing, infrastructure, appeal, user interface, etc. P.S. There was a casual feel to BW that you're missing as well, so please stop.
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On December 15 2012 10:35 StarStruck wrote:The community has been thinking and talking about it for a lot longer than that. Just because Destiny decided to chastise the U.I. for not being casual friendly (which is another way of saying B.Net 2.0 sucks balls) and Grubby writes a manifesto doesn't mean the community hasn't been complaining about the saturation for a really long time because they have. As for the saturation issue, gee. I guess we didn't have it so bad with PL/OSL/MSL after all!
But last month was when every person + their dog was making a thread about this stuff.
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SC2 is extremely stagnant and boring right now. Whereas LoL there is infinite amount of meta game and champion combination and never gets boring and constant actions all over the map. Also LoL requires more skill than SC2 because you need to know what each champion does and you need to do what and use what item to counter your opponent. In SC2 you know your Zerg opponent is going to get infestors, and you know your protoss opponent is going to get colossus, I can close my eyes and narrate everything that happens in the first 10 minutes of a PvZ, whereas each LoL game is unique.
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Anybody considered viewing medium yet?
I might be in the minority, but watching on Twitch.tv is something I usually avoid. Every single advertisement on it hangs my PC for a minute. I can use ad-block, sure, but that doesn't feel right for me and it's something the content providers complain about anyway.
I definitely used to watch streams more often before this Twitch problem started up a few months ago. From what I've seen seeing complains about stream lags and such during events, it's quite a common problem too.
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I agree with content saturation. Lots of games are fun, but i feel key matches (fan favorite vs fan favorite) are played way too often to have its appeal. The rivalries ltend to lose that edge when they are played too many,too often.
Korean domination is good for the koreans - not the non-koreans. For the non-koreans to really get into the game, there needs to be more consistent opportunities for non-korean players to win and sustain a career. After all watching your favorite/homegrown player succeed in life is a pretty darn good feeling. It just seems that there isn't much money going around in this industry to sustain a really good player. I guess that brings out the point of sc2 volatility. No one is on top for too long - a good thing. However, it gives the opportunity for fringe players to lose their motivation.
I used to set aside weekends for MLG just to watch sc2, but with all the different leagues and tournaments, I've kinda gotten really sick of all the sc2. Seems repetitive, the same strats cycling around, the same thing done but with different players. Some content management is dearly needed in sc2.
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On December 15 2012 16:11 ETisME wrote:
oversupply would NOT decrease the total demand in the market.
It's a flawed argument to blame the lowering viewership number onto the over saturation.
It's just the game fails to attract new comers and boring out some people due to the developed metagame is stablised.
I dont think one can just simply apply basic microeconomic theory to this situation.
Its quite obvious that over saturation is having an impact on viewership. The writer of the article explained this concept quite well. When you have something rare and great, it builds hype and you feel great when you finally get it. If you are receiving it constantly, then it just becomes bland because you get used to it.
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On December 15 2012 08:40 ishyishy wrote:
- Playing the game: Pro and amatuer circuit? Who the hell is going to care or watch non-pro players? Cant say for sure that no one will, but I'll bet that there are less viewers for it than there is for the Pro matches lol, and I'll also bet that it wont be a sustainable or profittable business for long. I dont watch Playhem, I dont watch go4sc2 or any other small tournament, I only watch MLG and GSL because those 2 events have *the best* players playing, and I am only entertained by *the best players*.
The point of an amateur circuit would be to play, not to watch, I assume...
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On December 15 2012 17:06 ref4 wrote:
SC2 is extremely stagnant and boring right now. Whereas LoL there is infinite amount of meta game and champion combination and never gets boring and constant actions all over the map. Also LoL requires more skill than SC2 because you need to know what each champion does and you need to do what and use what item to counter your opponent. In SC2 you know your Zerg opponent is going to get infestors, and you know your protoss opponent is going to get colossus, I can close my eyes and narrate everything that happens in the first 10 minutes of a PvZ, whereas each LoL game is unique.
Do you even play sc2 ? The only hard part of LoL is being good at communication: mechanichs and theorycraft aren't hard since most of them are really intuitive. Hell, i can play a champ like a LoL pro mechanically speaking, but for sure i lack the communication and cooperation skills required to go far on that game.
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EPT
