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I wouldn't say that it is oversaturation of events rather than every match turning into a turtle fest to one or two engagements and the game being over. When the game first came out it was exciting, new, and we got to watch the development of the meta. Now, it can't be a coincidence that numbers started to faulter around the time Brood Lord/Infestor started to get popular. Recently there has a been surge of very strong and innovative games so the numbers are starting to blip back up again.
Also, I really don't agree with having an Amatur and Professional separate league due to the fact that there is no way to dictate who should be where and I feel that if those measures were put in place politics will inevitably play a role. I can full on see larger organizations trying to cannibalize the smaller ones that still put on great events but aren't to the caliber of say Dreamhack or IPL.
Finally, and as weird as this is going to sound, there flat out may just be an oversaturation of players in this game. The talent pool in Korea is so large but players barely get to come out to play in foreign tournaments. Meanwhile the foreign talent pool honestly is lacking and you see a lot of the same awful players get destroyed. That could get boring after a while.
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I think the fault for viewer decline is because of few strategies in the game is viable, it's almost always same unit combo which make it stale to watch after few months. There isn't much aggressive play, I blame this mostly on mapmakers because of the big maps, second and third base being so close to each other and attacking the bases always have small ramps or roads making it harder to attack. I know the maps are design this way to make it more balance, but it is blizzard job to balance not the mapmakers.
This is biggest problem atm in sc2 I think but the is also another problem.
Koreans are dominating to hard in foreign tournaments, there is no local hero to cheer for. I hope there will be more US only tournaments and EU only tournaments in Hots.
I don't agree saturation is a problem, from I checked with tennis there is a lot of tournaments there and don't seems to be a problem at all.
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On December 15 2012 07:47 Kluey wrote:
So true but, there is nothing we can do. The organizations that can't keep up with the top will die out and that's how we get rid of over saturation.
But then when that happens everyone thinks SC2 is dying. People gotta learn it's just a market correction. Watch SC2 and there will be SC2 to watch.
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I guess calling something a Reality Check is a great way to get people preemptively riled up, which is nice for hits in a community for which riled up is it's bread and butter and the OP's choice of quote certainly didn't hurt either. I don't know what the gist of that post is though, if there is one. Seems far from a comprehensive look at the state of anything and not sourcing anything certainly doesn't help.
Besides that, over saturation has of course no direct relation to overall numbers, as has been pointed out quite a while ago already and there's a distinct difference between events, you can hardly compare a MLG or GSL to one of the weekly tourneys. If organizers want to up their numbers, they have to improve their event's quality and market it accordingly. Asking for Blizzard to regulate them is silly. I guess next we get to pay an e-sports tax to support poor event organizers hit by competition?
As for the "not revolt against pay-per-view content", it's got nothing to do with being against it on principle, it is in fact exactly what he says, paying for favorite content. I pay for GSL, I'd pay to see my favorite players in something interesting, I'm not paying because we need more money spent. If MLG wants to do 20 small qualification tourneys behind a pay wall that's fine but I will spend on things I'd like to see, not because we need more money spent.
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On December 15 2012 08:53 GolemMadness wrote:
Welcome to last month.
The community has beenthinking and talking about it for a lot longer than that. Just because Destiny decided to chastise the U.I. for not being casual friendly (which is another way of saying B.Net 2.0 sucks balls) and Grubby writes a manifesto doesn't mean the community hasn't been complaining about the saturation for a really long time because they have. As for the saturation issue, gee. I guess we didn't have it so bad with PL/OSL/MSL after all!
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Without a governing body most of this is just talk. There needs to be a PGA style system where we can have an amateur tour, pro tour and senior(!) tour, Ryder Cup, etc, with 4 majors per year and many more minor events spread throughout that help seed those majors.
The majors could easily just be the big tournies. GSL, OSL, MLG, Dreamhack. But every event should help pave the way for each one of these majors. IE, minor MLG tournies should help seed the DH major, etc. But this requires a governing body to oversee all of this, come up with a ratings system for rankings, schedule events, etc.
Say what you want about Kespa, but they understood this with BW. There's a reason we talk about Golden Mouse winners like we do about how many Majors Tiger Woods has won. Those things matter because the organization around it made it matter.
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On December 15 2012 11:20 vesicular wrote:
Without a governing body most of this is just talk. There needs to be a PGA style system where we can have an amateur tour, pro tour and senior(!) tour, Ryder Cup, etc, with 4 majors per year and many more minor events spread throughout that help seed those majors.
The majors could easily just be the big tournies. GSL, OSL, MLG, Dreamhack. But every event should help pave the way for each one of these majors. IE, minor MLG tournies should help seed the DH major, etc. But this requires a governing body to oversee all of this, come up with a ratings system for rankings, schedule events, etc.
Say what you want about Kespa, but they understood this with BW. There's a reason we talk about Golden Mouse winners like we do about how many Majors Tiger Woods has won. Those things matter because the organization around it made it matter.
Well:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382208
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LOL, its not a big large loss of viewership in at TL streams, they are just more divided now BECAUSE of alot of content.
that means that no one bothers to stay up for events anymore since theyl catch one anyways.
YES LoL gets like 100k views per events but theres like 2 tourneys a month or something....
overall i think sc2 viewers just view theyre tourneys in their timezone etc.
Just more streams so less people per stream........
That complexity manager needs a reality check, and some very basic math skills.
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On December 15 2012 08:45 mrRoflpwn wrote:
Just like he said- matches lose hype if you see players play each other every other week.
I watch my favorite basketball team play several times a week and it doesn't get old.
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On December 15 2012 08:40 ishyishy wrote:
- Event saturation: I dont see a problem here, the fans will tune in to what they like, and each company will either grow or decline as a result. It's all part of the entertainment industry, it's all about competition for viewers. I see no problem here.
- Watching the game: if people dont like watching the game anymore, then they move on to something else. Just because the diehard fans of sc2 demand it of everyone that sets their eyes on a sc2 stream one time to stay glued to it for life doesnt mean it's going to happen. No one other than the players can choose how the players play the game, and if you dont like watching a zerg sit on their ass for 15 minutes and mass spines, then dont watch it anymore, or watch someone else. No one knows if it will be "the best" strat in the expansion, but if it is, there is only 1 entity to blame, blizzard. Not the players. Not the fans.
- Playing the game: Pro and amatuer circuit? Who the hell is going to care or watch non-pro players? Cant say for sure that no one will, but I'll bet that there are less viewers for it than there is for the Pro matches lol, and I'll also bet that it wont be a sustainable or profittable business for long. I dont watch Playhem, I dont watch go4sc2 or any other small tournament, I only watch MLG and GSL because those 2 events have *the best* players playing, and I am only entertained by *the best players*.
For example, Jason says "...basically anyone can run an event, regardless of quality, whenever they want. This creates a situation of white noise. Nothing seems important anymore."
How does this make any sense at all? People will either like or dislike an event, and if an event is disliked enough times it will disappear. An MLG sure does seem a hell of a lot more important because everyone likes it, than some fucking joke tournament in some remote country that was ran poorly.
IMO people are slowly getting bored with seeing the actual game. We dont live in an age where people stay entertained by the same shit for years and years anymore. New generation gamers always want flashy shit that changes often. Look at LoL, a flashy, somewhat easy to play game that changes several times a month because new skins and heros come out. Look at Call of Duty, they fuckin make a new game or 2 every year with a few new flashy eye candy bits in each game (not saying the actual gamplay changes, just the shit you see).
In sc2, nothing changes, theres no flashy eye candy to keep kids entertained (not even a dis, its true), the changes we get are "reduce build time on [X building] by 5 seconds". Is that supposed to bring new players into the game? Blizzard is not making new ways to attract new players, and obviously everyone currently playing will eventually lose interest, thus you have a declining population, it's that simple. Sc2 is plain, dull, not entertaining to play for long periods of time for most people, and gets insanely boring to watch because pro players have figured the game out. The expansion wont change this. It will eventually boil down to a set amount of maps that are good, a set amount of builds that are good, and flip coins. It isnt going anywhere fast, and Jason, that is no ones fault other than the creator, the designers, and the main supporters of the game, Blizzard.
I agree all with you.
personalle, i see the stagnating metagame, like the real issue, not the "oversaturation". gladly proleague put new maps that changed the boring, static, frustrating and stagnating metagame of last months.
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On December 15 2012 08:40 Hider wrote:
Gah unfortunately bass view is very simplistic.
Sc2 would decline eventually, regardless of the saturation. If fewer games were played, the duration might have been longer in terms of years, but in terms of total veiwerships of all games watched it wouldn't have mattered (or it would have been even lower).
Yeah, I don't get what's the point of looking at single tournament viewership as opposed to total viewership. Let the market figure out the optimal number of game rates. Unprofitable organizations go away and profitable organizations stay. That's how it works.
Personally, I think time to start going full HoTs to bring excitement into the scene. WoL is quite stale at this point.
Edit: Ishyishy took the words right out my mouth.
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i extremely, extremely, extremely absolutely disagree with the OP
i believe if league of legends was never created, SC2 would be much bigger right now. an easier game that managed (credit to riot) to completely knock blizzard the F out when it came to doing the right thing and promoting their game and PAYING OUT OF THEIR POCKET to run massive tournaments and provide prize pools is what killed sc2
normally, a lowskill game like LoL would never be able to actually develop a semi-huge pro scene and thrive to compete with something beautiful like sc2. but the truth is for a game like league, once a pro scene gets started it would inevitably destroy sc2 because league is such a easy casual game
the same energy that gives success to mcdonalds and walmart is the same energy that gives success to the LoL pro scene, the fact that casuals run the world
back during the first big early SC2 showings at IPL and MLG (sort of around the era of MMA defeating MVP at GSL finals at blizzcon) SC2 was at its hugest state imo. I remember when league of legends first appeared in the IPL and MLG alongside SC2, and sc2 fans found it to be absolutely hilarious how such a boring-to-watch noskill game was plague'ing us between our great SC2 matches of skill
league is the kind of game that once the semi-large pro scene is created, it will grow and spiral out of control into a monstrosity and overtake SC2, yet still league could have never actually created a original semi-large pro scene without riots help so kudos to riot for doing it.
the reason league could never get its own startpoint semi-large pro scene by itself with just the power of the game is because of the joke factor. it was just incredibly stupid and boring to watch league of legends when the pro scene first was starting up, the skill level was laughable compared to something as demanding as SC2.
but with riots help league was able to create an initial semi-large pro scene, and once that was created the nature of league as a game would propel it into superspeed
you see the reason i said a game like league could never get a real pro scene is because it was just plain boring and laughable to watch compared to the sc2. watching league is boring as sin and just doesnt have enough entertainment factor to give people a "purpose" to watch in the early pro scene stages compared to something like starcraft.
starcrafts pro scene quickly grew massively to a huge peak (ill say MMA vs idra where mma killed his own command center and the following MLG are showings of the huge early peak of sc2) and Sc2 reached that massive peak just on the game itself because it was a very skill demanding game and entertaining to watch.
the fact that sc2 is so entertaining is a reason why its not likely to completely die off anytime soon
but football on some levels is boring to watch. every sport is boring at some level. theres another aspect of viewing sports that makes it entertaining and thats the "fanboy / fangirl" factor and the "underdog / top dog" factor where people wanna see "whos the best" and who beats who and people emotionally invest into their favorite teams/players and that causes viewership to increase instead of actually watching for the entertaining or high skill factor of the game.
So that is one energy that SC2 and LoL both feed off of (the energy of fans getting emotionally invested into their favorite teams or players)
however the difference is because RIOT was able to pay to start up their own self funded pro scene, what happened was UNLIKE sc2 pro scene, league of legends is actually a extremely casual and low-stress game that tons of casuals can play and not feel stressed while playing.
so unlike SC2 which had most of its early highpeak viewership energy fueled by people who watch for the highskill factor and awe of the game that the pros are so good at a game that is so incredibly hard and challenging to play and many people dont even play much sc2 but still watched it
league of legends pro scene was able to feed on the energy that their game is extremely casual friendly so now millions of casuals could watch the sport AND play the game and its fairly fun to play meaning the pro scene would spread quickly because more people would want to play and watch the pro scene and share the game with friends. so league viewership numbers massively increased because that casual factor is just so powerful because its something they do so its interesting to them to watch even though the end entertainment product in all honestly is complete shit compared to sc2, the casuals will still watch it and their emotional investment into the whole process and seeing their favorite team win causes them to be blind to the fact that the product they are viewing with their eyes is trash. in fact some of them know its trash but it doesnt matter because theres still a high entertainment factor in just the emotional investment into the teams. for example dane cooks comedy is terrible yet he still sells out massive venues because his fans are there for the emotional investment
remember i said "semi-large" pro scene. league of legends is eclipsing dota 2 and sc2 at the moment. Sc2 grew to a massive peak by itself to something much larger than dota could ever be just through the games sheer amazing skill / entertainment factor. the dota scene sure was big in asia, but i would still consider it smaller than semi-large, and it was smaller than SC2's peak.
the high peak of SC2 is what i consider to be nearing the toplevel of a "semi-large" pro scene, and league of legends was able to reach that semi-large status and shine alongside SC2 thanks to riots help, and now league has blown past that semi-large status (due to it being such a casual friendly game) and sc2 has slightly become weaker. right now sc2 is still semi-large but league has grown into something even more powerful.
I still suspect that sc2 wont die anytime soon however because it is still as a product, superior to LoL. but the power of the casual side is strong, and the casual side fuels LoL with a nearly unstoppable energy. i cry thinking about how big this crap game is going to become
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On December 15 2012 13:03 kaokentake wrote:
i extremely, extremely, extremely absolutely disagree with the OP
i believe if league of legends was never created, SC2 would be much bigger right now. an easier game that managed (credit to riot) to completely knock blizzard the F out when it came to doing the right thing and promoting their game and PAYING OUT OF THEIR POCKET to run massive tournaments and provide prize pools is what killed sc2
normally, a lowskill game like LoL would never be able to actually develop a semi-huge pro scene and thrive to compete with something beautiful like sc2. but the truth is for a game like league, once a pro scene gets started it would inevitably destroy sc2 because league is such a easy casual game
the same energy that gives success to mcdonalds and walmart is the same energy that gives success to the LoL pro scene, the fact that casuals run the world
back during the first big early SC2 showings at IPL and MLG (sort of around the era of MMA defeating MVP at GSL finals at blizzcon) SC2 was at its hugest state imo. I remember when league of legends first appeared in the IPL and MLG alongside SC2, and sc2 fans found it to be absolutely hilarious how such a boring-to-watch noskill game was plague'ing us between our great SC2 matches of skill
league is the kind of game that once the semi-large pro scene is created, it will grow and spiral out of control into a monstrosity and overtake SC2, yet still league could have never actually created a original semi-large pro scene without riots help so kudos to riot for doing it.
the reason league could never get its own startpoint semi-large pro scene by itself with just the power of the game is because of the joke factor. it was just incredibly stupid and boring to watch league of legends when the pro scene first was starting up, the skill level was laughable compared to something as demanding as SC2.
but with riots help league was able to create an initial semi-large pro scene, and once that was created the nature of league as a game would propel it into superspeed
you see the reason i said a game like league could never get a real pro scene is because it was just plain boring and laughable to watch compared to the sc2. watching league is boring as sin and just doesnt have enough entertainment factor to give people a "purpose" to watch in the early pro scene stages compared to something like starcraft.
starcrafts pro scene quickly grew massively to a huge peak (ill say MMA vs idra where mma killed his own command center and the following MLG are showings of the huge early peak of sc2) and Sc2 reached that massive peak just on the game itself because it was a very skill demanding game and entertaining to watch.
the fact that sc2 is so entertaining is a reason why its not likely to completely die off anytime soon
but football on some levels is boring to watch. every sport is boring at some level. theres another aspect of viewing sports that makes it entertaining and thats the "fanboy / fangirl" factor and the "underdog / top dog" factor where people wanna see "whos the best" and who beats who and people emotionally invest into their favorite teams/players and that causes viewership to increase instead of actually watching for the entertaining or high skill factor of the game.
So that is one energy that SC2 and LoL both feed off of (the energy of fans getting emotionally invested into their favorite teams or players)
however the difference is because RIOT was able to pay to start up their own self funded pro scene, what happened was UNLIKE sc2 pro scene, league of legends is actually a extremely casual and low-stress game that tons of casuals can play and not feel stressed while playing.
so unlike SC2 which had most of its early highpeak viewership energy fueled by people who watch for the highskill factor and awe of the game that the pros are so good at a game that is so incredibly hard and challenging to play and many people dont even play much sc2 but still watched it
league of legends pro scene was able to feed on the energy that their game is extremely casual friendly so now millions of casuals could watch the sport AND play the game and its fairly fun to play meaning the pro scene would spread quickly because more people would want to play and watch the pro scene and share the game with friends. so league viewership numbers massively increased because that casual factor is just so powerful because its something they do so its interesting to them to watch even though the end entertainment product in all honestly is complete shit compared to sc2, the casuals will still watch it and their emotional investment into the whole process and seeing their favorite team win causes them to be blind to the fact that the product they are viewing with their eyes is trash. in fact some of them know its trash but it doesnt matter because theres still a high entertainment factor in just the emotional investment into the teams. for example dane cooks comedy is terrible yet he still sells out massive venues because his fans are there for the emotional investment
remember i said "semi-large" pro scene. league of legends is eclipsing dota 2 and sc2 at the moment. Sc2 grew to a massive peak by itself to something much larger than dota could ever be just through the games sheer amazing skill / entertainment factor. the dota scene sure was big in asia, but i would still consider it smaller than semi-large, and it was smaller than SC2's peak.
the high peak of SC2 is what i consider to be nearing the toplevel of a "semi-large" pro scene, and league of legends was able to reach that semi-large status and shine alongside SC2 thanks to riots help, and now league has blown past that semi-large status (due to it being such a casual friendly game) and sc2 has slightly become weaker. right now sc2 is still semi-large but league has grown into something even more powerful.
I still suspect that sc2 wont die anytime soon however because it is still as a product, superior to LoL. but the power of the casual side is strong, and the casual side fuels LoL with a nearly unstoppable energy. i cry thinking about how big this crap game is going to become
You seem to dislike LoL.
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On December 15 2012 13:03 kaokentake wrote:
i extremely, extremely, extremely absolutely disagree with the OP
i believe if league of legends was never created, SC2 would be much bigger right now. an easier game that managed (credit to riot) to completely knock blizzard the F out when it came to doing the right thing and promoting their game and PAYING OUT OF THEIR POCKET to run massive tournaments and provide prize pools is what killed sc2
normally, a lowskill game like LoL would never be able to actually develop a semi-huge pro scene and thrive to compete with something beautiful like sc2. but the truth is for a game like league, once a pro scene gets started it would inevitably destroy sc2 because league is such a easy casual game
the same energy that gives success to mcdonalds and walmart is the same energy that gives success to the LoL pro scene, the fact that casuals run the world
back during the first big early SC2 showings at IPL and MLG (sort of around the era of MMA defeating MVP at GSL finals at blizzcon) SC2 was at its hugest state imo. I remember when league of legends first appeared in the IPL and MLG alongside SC2, and sc2 fans found it to be absolutely hilarious how such a boring-to-watch noskill game was plague'ing us between our great SC2 matches of skill
league is the kind of game that once the semi-large pro scene is created, it will grow and spiral out of control into a monstrosity and overtake SC2, yet still league could have never actually created a original semi-large pro scene without riots help so kudos to riot for doing it.
the reason league could never get its own startpoint semi-large pro scene by itself with just the power of the game is because of the joke factor. it was just incredibly stupid and boring to watch league of legends when the pro scene first was starting up, the skill level was laughable compared to something as demanding as SC2.
but with riots help league was able to create an initial semi-large pro scene, and once that was created the nature of league as a game would propel it into superspeed
you see the reason i said a game like league could never get a real pro scene is because it was just plain boring and laughable to watch compared to the sc2. watching league is boring as sin and just doesnt have enough entertainment factor to give people a "purpose" to watch in the early pro scene stages compared to something like starcraft.
starcrafts pro scene quickly grew massively to a huge peak (ill say MMA vs idra where mma killed his own command center and the following MLG are showings of the huge early peak of sc2) and Sc2 reached that massive peak just on the game itself because it was a very skill demanding game and entertaining to watch.
the fact that sc2 is so entertaining is a reason why its not likely to completely die off anytime soon
but football on some levels is boring to watch. every sport is boring at some level. theres another aspect of viewing sports that makes it entertaining and thats the "fanboy / fangirl" factor and the "underdog / top dog" factor where people wanna see "whos the best" and who beats who and people emotionally invest into their favorite teams/players and that causes viewership to increase instead of actually watching for the entertaining or high skill factor of the game.
So that is one energy that SC2 and LoL both feed off of (the energy of fans getting emotionally invested into their favorite teams or players)
however the difference is because RIOT was able to pay to start up their own self funded pro scene, what happened was UNLIKE sc2 pro scene, league of legends is actually a extremely casual and low-stress game that tons of casuals can play and not feel stressed while playing.
so unlike SC2 which had most of its early highpeak viewership energy fueled by people who watch for the highskill factor and awe of the game that the pros are so good at a game that is so incredibly hard and challenging to play and many people dont even play much sc2 but still watched it
league of legends pro scene was able to feed on the energy that their game is extremely casual friendly so now millions of casuals could watch the sport AND play the game and its fairly fun to play meaning the pro scene would spread quickly because more people would want to play and watch the pro scene and share the game with friends. so league viewership numbers massively increased because that casual factor is just so powerful because its something they do so its interesting to them to watch even though the end entertainment product in all honestly is complete shit compared to sc2, the casuals will still watch it and their emotional investment into the whole process and seeing their favorite team win causes them to be blind to the fact that the product they are viewing with their eyes is trash. in fact some of them know its trash but it doesnt matter because theres still a high entertainment factor in just the emotional investment into the teams. for example dane cooks comedy is terrible yet he still sells out massive venues because his fans are there for the emotional investment
remember i said "semi-large" pro scene. league of legends is eclipsing dota 2 and sc2 at the moment. Sc2 grew to a massive peak by itself to something much larger than dota could ever be just through the games sheer amazing skill / entertainment factor. the dota scene sure was big in asia, but i would still consider it smaller than semi-large, and it was smaller than SC2's peak.
the high peak of SC2 is what i consider to be nearing the toplevel of a "semi-large" pro scene, and league of legends was able to reach that semi-large status and shine alongside SC2 thanks to riots help, and now league has blown past that semi-large status (due to it being such a casual friendly game) and sc2 has slightly become weaker. right now sc2 is still semi-large but league has grown into something even more powerful.
I still suspect that sc2 wont die anytime soon however because it is still as a product, superior to LoL. but the power of the casual side is strong, and the casual side fuels LoL with a nearly unstoppable energy. i cry thinking about how big this crap game is going to become
I honestly don't know what the fuck I just read. So you are basically saying LoL is killing SC2, even though SC2 is the much much better game, but LoL is so casual friendly it attracts more fans? Honestly? This is so dumb it physically hurts.
Guess what, Brood War was massively unfriendly to casual players (for 1v1s), much much more mechanically demanding than StarCraft 2 will EVER be and still managed to get a huuuuuge fan base, even though there were arguably easier, more casual friendly games available Brood War thrived regardless.
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Nothing really new has been contributed with this blog from Complexity.
I personally think that the game itself, particularly balance, relatively stale meta and maps, has been a major factor in decreasing viewer numbers.
It's not a coincidence that is started happening over the past six months or so.
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On December 15 2012 13:31 BigBossX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 13:03 kaokentake wrote:
i extremely, extremely, extremely absolutely disagree with the OP
i believe if league of legends was never created, SC2 would be much bigger right now. an easier game that managed (credit to riot) to completely knock blizzard the F out when it came to doing the right thing and promoting their game and PAYING OUT OF THEIR POCKET to run massive tournaments and provide prize pools is what killed sc2
normally, a lowskill game like LoL would never be able to actually develop a semi-huge pro scene and thrive to compete with something beautiful like sc2. but the truth is for a game like league, once a pro scene gets started it would inevitably destroy sc2 because league is such a easy casual game
the same energy that gives success to mcdonalds and walmart is the same energy that gives success to the LoL pro scene, the fact that casuals run the world
back during the first big early SC2 showings at IPL and MLG (sort of around the era of MMA defeating MVP at GSL finals at blizzcon) SC2 was at its hugest state imo. I remember when league of legends first appeared in the IPL and MLG alongside SC2, and sc2 fans found it to be absolutely hilarious how such a boring-to-watch noskill game was plague'ing us between our great SC2 matches of skill
league is the kind of game that once the semi-large pro scene is created, it will grow and spiral out of control into a monstrosity and overtake SC2, yet still league could have never actually created a original semi-large pro scene without riots help so kudos to riot for doing it.
the reason league could never get its own startpoint semi-large pro scene by itself with just the power of the game is because of the joke factor. it was just incredibly stupid and boring to watch league of legends when the pro scene first was starting up, the skill level was laughable compared to something as demanding as SC2.
but with riots help league was able to create an initial semi-large pro scene, and once that was created the nature of league as a game would propel it into superspeed
you see the reason i said a game like league could never get a real pro scene is because it was just plain boring and laughable to watch compared to the sc2. watching league is boring as sin and just doesnt have enough entertainment factor to give people a "purpose" to watch in the early pro scene stages compared to something like starcraft.
starcrafts pro scene quickly grew massively to a huge peak (ill say MMA vs idra where mma killed his own command center and the following MLG are showings of the huge early peak of sc2) and Sc2 reached that massive peak just on the game itself because it was a very skill demanding game and entertaining to watch.
the fact that sc2 is so entertaining is a reason why its not likely to completely die off anytime soon
but football on some levels is boring to watch. every sport is boring at some level. theres another aspect of viewing sports that makes it entertaining and thats the "fanboy / fangirl" factor and the "underdog / top dog" factor where people wanna see "whos the best" and who beats who and people emotionally invest into their favorite teams/players and that causes viewership to increase instead of actually watching for the entertaining or high skill factor of the game.
So that is one energy that SC2 and LoL both feed off of (the energy of fans getting emotionally invested into their favorite teams or players)
however the difference is because RIOT was able to pay to start up their own self funded pro scene, what happened was UNLIKE sc2 pro scene, league of legends is actually a extremely casual and low-stress game that tons of casuals can play and not feel stressed while playing.
so unlike SC2 which had most of its early highpeak viewership energy fueled by people who watch for the highskill factor and awe of the game that the pros are so good at a game that is so incredibly hard and challenging to play and many people dont even play much sc2 but still watched it
league of legends pro scene was able to feed on the energy that their game is extremely casual friendly so now millions of casuals could watch the sport AND play the game and its fairly fun to play meaning the pro scene would spread quickly because more people would want to play and watch the pro scene and share the game with friends. so league viewership numbers massively increased because that casual factor is just so powerful because its something they do so its interesting to them to watch even though the end entertainment product in all honestly is complete shit compared to sc2, the casuals will still watch it and their emotional investment into the whole process and seeing their favorite team win causes them to be blind to the fact that the product they are viewing with their eyes is trash. in fact some of them know its trash but it doesnt matter because theres still a high entertainment factor in just the emotional investment into the teams. for example dane cooks comedy is terrible yet he still sells out massive venues because his fans are there for the emotional investment
remember i said "semi-large" pro scene. league of legends is eclipsing dota 2 and sc2 at the moment. Sc2 grew to a massive peak by itself to something much larger than dota could ever be just through the games sheer amazing skill / entertainment factor. the dota scene sure was big in asia, but i would still consider it smaller than semi-large, and it was smaller than SC2's peak.
the high peak of SC2 is what i consider to be nearing the toplevel of a "semi-large" pro scene, and league of legends was able to reach that semi-large status and shine alongside SC2 thanks to riots help, and now league has blown past that semi-large status (due to it being such a casual friendly game) and sc2 has slightly become weaker. right now sc2 is still semi-large but league has grown into something even more powerful.
I still suspect that sc2 wont die anytime soon however because it is still as a product, superior to LoL. but the power of the casual side is strong, and the casual side fuels LoL with a nearly unstoppable energy. i cry thinking about how big this crap game is going to become I honestly don't know what the fuck I just read. So you are basically saying LoL is killing SC2, even though SC2 is the much much better game, but LoL is so casual friendly it attracts more fans? Honestly? This is so dumb it physically hurts. Guess what, Brood War was massively unfriendly to casual players (for 1v1s), much much more mechanically demanding than StarCraft 2 will EVER be and still managed to get a huuuuuge fan base, even though there were arguably easier, more casual friendly games available Brood War thrived regardless.
Broodwar didn't have 1/5 of the fanbase SC2 gathered. I would guess 80% of the people who play Broodwar are playing SC2 now and add everyone that caught on due to the release of WoL. He makes some good points and people will like the game they play over a game they don't play. For a while you had way more people watching Starcraft that didn't play it, but those people kind of just left.
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I don't believe it is a problem of over saturation at all and personally believe this view is a weak one to take. A business has to be able to compete. The best businesses take the lead until they are outperformed.
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On December 15 2012 13:03 kaokentake wrote:
i extremely, extremely, extremely absolutely disagree with the OP
i believe if league of legends was never created, SC2 would be much bigger right now. an easier game that managed (credit to riot) to completely knock blizzard the F out when it came to doing the right thing and promoting their game and PAYING OUT OF THEIR POCKET to run massive tournaments and provide prize pools is what killed sc2
normally, a lowskill game like LoL would never be able to actually develop a semi-huge pro scene and thrive to compete with something beautiful like sc2. but the truth is for a game like league, once a pro scene gets started it would inevitably destroy sc2 because league is such a easy casual game
the same energy that gives success to mcdonalds and walmart is the same energy that gives success to the LoL pro scene, the fact that casuals run the world
back during the first big early SC2 showings at IPL and MLG (sort of around the era of MMA defeating MVP at GSL finals at blizzcon) SC2 was at its hugest state imo. I remember when league of legends first appeared in the IPL and MLG alongside SC2, and sc2 fans found it to be absolutely hilarious how such a boring-to-watch noskill game was plague'ing us between our great SC2 matches of skill
league is the kind of game that once the semi-large pro scene is created, it will grow and spiral out of control into a monstrosity and overtake SC2, yet still league could have never actually created a original semi-large pro scene without riots help so kudos to riot for doing it.
the reason league could never get its own startpoint semi-large pro scene by itself with just the power of the game is because of the joke factor. it was just incredibly stupid and boring to watch league of legends when the pro scene first was starting up, the skill level was laughable compared to something as demanding as SC2.
but with riots help league was able to create an initial semi-large pro scene, and once that was created the nature of league as a game would propel it into superspeed
you see the reason i said a game like league could never get a real pro scene is because it was just plain boring and laughable to watch compared to the sc2. watching league is boring as sin and just doesnt have enough entertainment factor to give people a "purpose" to watch in the early pro scene stages compared to something like starcraft.
starcrafts pro scene quickly grew massively to a huge peak (ill say MMA vs idra where mma killed his own command center and the following MLG are showings of the huge early peak of sc2) and Sc2 reached that massive peak just on the game itself because it was a very skill demanding game and entertaining to watch.
the fact that sc2 is so entertaining is a reason why its not likely to completely die off anytime soon
but football on some levels is boring to watch. every sport is boring at some level. theres another aspect of viewing sports that makes it entertaining and thats the "fanboy / fangirl" factor and the "underdog / top dog" factor where people wanna see "whos the best" and who beats who and people emotionally invest into their favorite teams/players and that causes viewership to increase instead of actually watching for the entertaining or high skill factor of the game.
So that is one energy that SC2 and LoL both feed off of (the energy of fans getting emotionally invested into their favorite teams or players)
however the difference is because RIOT was able to pay to start up their own self funded pro scene, what happened was UNLIKE sc2 pro scene, league of legends is actually a extremely casual and low-stress game that tons of casuals can play and not feel stressed while playing.
so unlike SC2 which had most of its early highpeak viewership energy fueled by people who watch for the highskill factor and awe of the game that the pros are so good at a game that is so incredibly hard and challenging to play and many people dont even play much sc2 but still watched it
league of legends pro scene was able to feed on the energy that their game is extremely casual friendly so now millions of casuals could watch the sport AND play the game and its fairly fun to play meaning the pro scene would spread quickly because more people would want to play and watch the pro scene and share the game with friends. so league viewership numbers massively increased because that casual factor is just so powerful because its something they do so its interesting to them to watch even though the end entertainment product in all honestly is complete shit compared to sc2, the casuals will still watch it and their emotional investment into the whole process and seeing their favorite team win causes them to be blind to the fact that the product they are viewing with their eyes is trash. in fact some of them know its trash but it doesnt matter because theres still a high entertainment factor in just the emotional investment into the teams. for example dane cooks comedy is terrible yet he still sells out massive venues because his fans are there for the emotional investment
remember i said "semi-large" pro scene. league of legends is eclipsing dota 2 and sc2 at the moment. Sc2 grew to a massive peak by itself to something much larger than dota could ever be just through the games sheer amazing skill / entertainment factor. the dota scene sure was big in asia, but i would still consider it smaller than semi-large, and it was smaller than SC2's peak.
the high peak of SC2 is what i consider to be nearing the toplevel of a "semi-large" pro scene, and league of legends was able to reach that semi-large status and shine alongside SC2 thanks to riots help, and now league has blown past that semi-large status (due to it being such a casual friendly game) and sc2 has slightly become weaker. right now sc2 is still semi-large but league has grown into something even more powerful.
I still suspect that sc2 wont die anytime soon however because it is still as a product, superior to LoL. but the power of the casual side is strong, and the casual side fuels LoL with a nearly unstoppable energy. i cry thinking about how big this crap game is going to become
For a post that seemingly took a lot of time and effort, I give it an E- strictly because you took time to write it. Honestly, I can't help but be mean and say that this is a really poor post.
You said in 10,000 words or more, LOL is doing well because it caters to casual gamers.
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On December 15 2012 13:31 BigBossX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 13:03 kaokentake wrote:
i extremely, extremely, extremely absolutely disagree with the OP
i believe if league of legends was never created, SC2 would be much bigger right now. an easier game that managed (credit to riot) to completely knock blizzard the F out when it came to doing the right thing and promoting their game and PAYING OUT OF THEIR POCKET to run massive tournaments and provide prize pools is what killed sc2
normally, a lowskill game like LoL would never be able to actually develop a semi-huge pro scene and thrive to compete with something beautiful like sc2. but the truth is for a game like league, once a pro scene gets started it would inevitably destroy sc2 because league is such a easy casual game
the same energy that gives success to mcdonalds and walmart is the same energy that gives success to the LoL pro scene, the fact that casuals run the world
back during the first big early SC2 showings at IPL and MLG (sort of around the era of MMA defeating MVP at GSL finals at blizzcon) SC2 was at its hugest state imo. I remember when league of legends first appeared in the IPL and MLG alongside SC2, and sc2 fans found it to be absolutely hilarious how such a boring-to-watch noskill game was plague'ing us between our great SC2 matches of skill
league is the kind of game that once the semi-large pro scene is created, it will grow and spiral out of control into a monstrosity and overtake SC2, yet still league could have never actually created a original semi-large pro scene without riots help so kudos to riot for doing it.
the reason league could never get its own startpoint semi-large pro scene by itself with just the power of the game is because of the joke factor. it was just incredibly stupid and boring to watch league of legends when the pro scene first was starting up, the skill level was laughable compared to something as demanding as SC2.
but with riots help league was able to create an initial semi-large pro scene, and once that was created the nature of league as a game would propel it into superspeed
you see the reason i said a game like league could never get a real pro scene is because it was just plain boring and laughable to watch compared to the sc2. watching league is boring as sin and just doesnt have enough entertainment factor to give people a "purpose" to watch in the early pro scene stages compared to something like starcraft.
starcrafts pro scene quickly grew massively to a huge peak (ill say MMA vs idra where mma killed his own command center and the following MLG are showings of the huge early peak of sc2) and Sc2 reached that massive peak just on the game itself because it was a very skill demanding game and entertaining to watch.
the fact that sc2 is so entertaining is a reason why its not likely to completely die off anytime soon
but football on some levels is boring to watch. every sport is boring at some level. theres another aspect of viewing sports that makes it entertaining and thats the "fanboy / fangirl" factor and the "underdog / top dog" factor where people wanna see "whos the best" and who beats who and people emotionally invest into their favorite teams/players and that causes viewership to increase instead of actually watching for the entertaining or high skill factor of the game.
So that is one energy that SC2 and LoL both feed off of (the energy of fans getting emotionally invested into their favorite teams or players)
however the difference is because RIOT was able to pay to start up their own self funded pro scene, what happened was UNLIKE sc2 pro scene, league of legends is actually a extremely casual and low-stress game that tons of casuals can play and not feel stressed while playing.
so unlike SC2 which had most of its early highpeak viewership energy fueled by people who watch for the highskill factor and awe of the game that the pros are so good at a game that is so incredibly hard and challenging to play and many people dont even play much sc2 but still watched it
league of legends pro scene was able to feed on the energy that their game is extremely casual friendly so now millions of casuals could watch the sport AND play the game and its fairly fun to play meaning the pro scene would spread quickly because more people would want to play and watch the pro scene and share the game with friends. so league viewership numbers massively increased because that casual factor is just so powerful because its something they do so its interesting to them to watch even though the end entertainment product in all honestly is complete shit compared to sc2, the casuals will still watch it and their emotional investment into the whole process and seeing their favorite team win causes them to be blind to the fact that the product they are viewing with their eyes is trash. in fact some of them know its trash but it doesnt matter because theres still a high entertainment factor in just the emotional investment into the teams. for example dane cooks comedy is terrible yet he still sells out massive venues because his fans are there for the emotional investment
remember i said "semi-large" pro scene. league of legends is eclipsing dota 2 and sc2 at the moment. Sc2 grew to a massive peak by itself to something much larger than dota could ever be just through the games sheer amazing skill / entertainment factor. the dota scene sure was big in asia, but i would still consider it smaller than semi-large, and it was smaller than SC2's peak.
the high peak of SC2 is what i consider to be nearing the toplevel of a "semi-large" pro scene, and league of legends was able to reach that semi-large status and shine alongside SC2 thanks to riots help, and now league has blown past that semi-large status (due to it being such a casual friendly game) and sc2 has slightly become weaker. right now sc2 is still semi-large but league has grown into something even more powerful.
I still suspect that sc2 wont die anytime soon however because it is still as a product, superior to LoL. but the power of the casual side is strong, and the casual side fuels LoL with a nearly unstoppable energy. i cry thinking about how big this crap game is going to become I honestly don't know what the fuck I just read. So you are basically saying LoL is killing SC2, even though SC2 is the much much better game, but LoL is so casual friendly it attracts more fans? Honestly? This is so dumb it physically hurts. Guess what, Brood War was massively unfriendly to casual players (for 1v1s), much much more mechanically demanding than StarCraft 2 will EVER be and still managed to get a huuuuuge fan base, even though there were arguably easier, more casual friendly games available Brood War thrived regardless.
bw became huge for the reason sc2 became huge. extremely high skill required game so it was awe inspiring to watch even for people who didnt play because of the high skill factor
but also, BW was FUN TO WATCH even just for pure entertainment, as a VISUAL product just for the eyes, BW had high entertainment value just from a visual standpoint (even moreso than LoL)
i find really great SC2 games more visually (not just graphics, just game mechanics playing out on screen, just as in being more fun to watch) entertaining than BW.
Its not __just__ about the skill, but moreso the entire product with all aspects combined as it comes together to present a entertainment option. SC2 and even BW are much superior products compared to LoL, but LoL is extremely casual friendly so once lol reached a semi-large scene it started a casual landslide, the power of the casual side fueled it into superdrive
BW on the other hand, could never draw upon the energies of the casual side, so it never got that overdrive boost that LoL was able to get
once BW reached a very large peak (i believe BW at its peak could also qualify as big enough to start the casual landslide , once a scene gets large enough the casual landslide will fuel it, and BW certainly became large enough but it was never casual friendly so the casual landslide couldnt do to BW what it did to LoL)
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I honestly think LoL and Dota 2 killed sc2. I have quit sc2 and switched to LoL for about a year now, and know many friends from sc2 who have done the same or gone to Dota 2 instead. Sc2 use to be something special, I remember watching FruitDealer win the first GSL, I had never been happier in my life. I'm not sure whats changed but I rapidly lost my interest in sc2 and shifted to LoL.
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EPT
