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On November 22 2012 22:48 Sissors wrote:
And then the question is still why the DT would there be anything different than a zealot. Zerg has plenty of detection without fungal giving detection.
Plenty?
Overseer + Spore
Terran:
Raven, Missile Turret, Scan, EMP
If Zerg has plenty of detection, i would like to have as few as terran has...
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On November 22 2012 23:01 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 22:48 Sissors wrote:
And then the question is still why the DT would there be anything different than a zealot. Zerg has plenty of detection without fungal giving detection. Plenty? Overseer + Spore Terran: Raven, Missile Turret, Scan, EMP If Zerg has plenty of detection, i would like to have as few as terran has...
The overseer is cheap as dirt and really fast, so a false comparison.
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On November 22 2012 22:53 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 22:48 Sissors wrote:
And then the question is still why the DT would there be anything different than a zealot. Zerg has plenty of detection without fungal giving detection. Spore and overseer, where is this plenty of detection?
Wait you dont consider spore and overseer as plenty?
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On November 22 2012 22:48 Sissors wrote:
And then the question is still why the DT would there be anything different than a zealot. Zerg has plenty of detection without fungal giving detection.
You know, the way you put the question, you could as well ask: "Why are DTs in the game, when all races have useful detection methodes, when you compare their stats to zealot stats."
The game is more complex than that and played by humans. DTs are in the game because they are useful tools, even if they are not as costefficient as zealots in straight up combat.
Also to directly answer you question: DTs are there because they can retreat (psionic) into the prism and because you get more than double the dps for the same amount of warp-ins. And most of all, because you only warp them in, if you see your opponent without an overseer or with an underprotected spore crawler as only detection.
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On November 22 2012 23:05 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 22:53 Assirra wrote:On November 22 2012 22:48 Sissors wrote:
And then the question is still why the DT would there be anything different than a zealot. Zerg has plenty of detection without fungal giving detection. Spore and overseer, where is this plenty of detection? Wait you dont consider spore and overseer as plenty?
2 things, 1 of them most of the time not even close to your army.
No, i don't consider that plenty.
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Protoss only had 2 methods of detection for 12+ years lol, stop the QQ.
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On November 22 2012 22:28 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 21:24 Sissors wrote:On November 22 2012 18:02 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 17:45 Telenil wrote:On November 22 2012 17:16 Big J wrote:
Oh, I think the prism is fine on its own. But I'm not so sure about prism+DT. 1-2spores fall so quickly to DTs, that you basically need overseer coverage everywhere on top of different (more) army coverage. Really, not revealing DTs is stupid imo. It's like they suddenly decide that Terrans can't reveal DTs with scans anymore... Not quite, this is as if Dark Templar couldn't be affected by EMPs any more. And the problem I see with DTs, is not just the "whoops, you have no overseer+army parked at one of those 3vital locations, now you lose the game"-effect, its also that you cannot prevent them from getting away anymore. Top pros simply won't lose DTs anymore, when harassing with them in PvZ. What is this obsession of the race with the fastest units ingame that they need to be able to completely root all units to kill them? How wouldnt you lose DTs anymore if you cant root them? Terran also has no rooting abilities, yet we have also no issues with killing DTs. Yes we have scan, but overseer > raven and spore crawler > missile turret for detection, so I really dont see any reason why you wouldnt be able to kill a DT without root. (Same for speed prisms, terran also cant root them, yet we can counter them fine). Sorry, starting now I'm just gonna kill the prism with my roaches and zerglings. You opened my eyes, Protoss cannot pick up DTs, because my mineral only unit is the best GtA unit in the game, thanks for reminding me. Also the fact that my spores only have ~60% of your turrets dps really helps me killing those pesky warp prisms more easily. please come up with more strawmans, I have never said I want to root something.
I wouldn't call those strawmans, they actually hold up quite fine. Your counter arguments on the other hand are much less sturdy. Saying something dumb like wishing for roaches and zerglings to shoot up doesn't prove anything. How hard is it to split off a couple of corrupters to fend off a warp prism (or Mutas if your opponent was foolish enough to send one out when you have Mutas on the map)? And a couple of spores may fall to DT's, but if you are on top of things they should buy time for an overseer and some Zerglings to make their way over and clean it up with no problems.
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On November 22 2012 23:16 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 23:05 Sissors wrote:On November 22 2012 22:53 Assirra wrote:On November 22 2012 22:48 Sissors wrote:
And then the question is still why the DT would there be anything different than a zealot. Zerg has plenty of detection without fungal giving detection. Spore and overseer, where is this plenty of detection? Wait you dont consider spore and overseer as plenty? 2 things, 1 of them most of the time not even close to your army. No, i don't consider that plenty.
Lategame zerg has 20+ prebuilt overlords and can make them into overseers for 50/50 and it takes 17 seconds. That's very good availability and cheap.
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^they also cost no supply
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On November 22 2012 23:23 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 22:28 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 21:24 Sissors wrote:On November 22 2012 18:02 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 17:45 Telenil wrote:On November 22 2012 17:16 Big J wrote:
Oh, I think the prism is fine on its own. But I'm not so sure about prism+DT. 1-2spores fall so quickly to DTs, that you basically need overseer coverage everywhere on top of different (more) army coverage. Really, not revealing DTs is stupid imo. It's like they suddenly decide that Terrans can't reveal DTs with scans anymore... Not quite, this is as if Dark Templar couldn't be affected by EMPs any more. And the problem I see with DTs, is not just the "whoops, you have no overseer+army parked at one of those 3vital locations, now you lose the game"-effect, its also that you cannot prevent them from getting away anymore. Top pros simply won't lose DTs anymore, when harassing with them in PvZ. What is this obsession of the race with the fastest units ingame that they need to be able to completely root all units to kill them? How wouldnt you lose DTs anymore if you cant root them? Terran also has no rooting abilities, yet we have also no issues with killing DTs. Yes we have scan, but overseer > raven and spore crawler > missile turret for detection, so I really dont see any reason why you wouldnt be able to kill a DT without root. (Same for speed prisms, terran also cant root them, yet we can counter them fine). Sorry, starting now I'm just gonna kill the prism with my roaches and zerglings. You opened my eyes, Protoss cannot pick up DTs, because my mineral only unit is the best GtA unit in the game, thanks for reminding me. Also the fact that my spores only have ~60% of your turrets dps really helps me killing those pesky warp prisms more easily. please come up with more strawmans, I have never said I want to root something. I wouldn't call those strawmans, they actually hold up quite fine. Your counter arguments on the other hand are much less sturdy. Saying something dumb like wishing for roaches and zerglings to shoot up doesn't prove anything. How hard is it to split off a couple of corrupters to fend off a warp prism (or Mutas if your opponent was foolish enough to send one out when you have Mutas on the map)? And a couple of spores may fall to DT's, but if you are on top of things they should buy time for an overseer and some Zerglings to make their way over and clean it up with no problems.
since we are on the note of corruptors; you do know that the warp prism with the speed upgrade cannot be caught by any zerg units as it becomes the second fastest unit in the game x.x? My concern is how will zerg catch a warp prism with the speed upgrade if it cannot be rooted?
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On November 22 2012 23:28 Sc2Null wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 23:23 Myrddraal wrote:On November 22 2012 22:28 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 21:24 Sissors wrote:On November 22 2012 18:02 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 17:45 Telenil wrote:On November 22 2012 17:16 Big J wrote:
Oh, I think the prism is fine on its own. But I'm not so sure about prism+DT. 1-2spores fall so quickly to DTs, that you basically need overseer coverage everywhere on top of different (more) army coverage. Really, not revealing DTs is stupid imo. It's like they suddenly decide that Terrans can't reveal DTs with scans anymore... Not quite, this is as if Dark Templar couldn't be affected by EMPs any more. And the problem I see with DTs, is not just the "whoops, you have no overseer+army parked at one of those 3vital locations, now you lose the game"-effect, its also that you cannot prevent them from getting away anymore. Top pros simply won't lose DTs anymore, when harassing with them in PvZ. What is this obsession of the race with the fastest units ingame that they need to be able to completely root all units to kill them? How wouldnt you lose DTs anymore if you cant root them? Terran also has no rooting abilities, yet we have also no issues with killing DTs. Yes we have scan, but overseer > raven and spore crawler > missile turret for detection, so I really dont see any reason why you wouldnt be able to kill a DT without root. (Same for speed prisms, terran also cant root them, yet we can counter them fine). Sorry, starting now I'm just gonna kill the prism with my roaches and zerglings. You opened my eyes, Protoss cannot pick up DTs, because my mineral only unit is the best GtA unit in the game, thanks for reminding me. Also the fact that my spores only have ~60% of your turrets dps really helps me killing those pesky warp prisms more easily. please come up with more strawmans, I have never said I want to root something. I wouldn't call those strawmans, they actually hold up quite fine. Your counter arguments on the other hand are much less sturdy. Saying something dumb like wishing for roaches and zerglings to shoot up doesn't prove anything. How hard is it to split off a couple of corrupters to fend off a warp prism (or Mutas if your opponent was foolish enough to send one out when you have Mutas on the map)? And a couple of spores may fall to DT's, but if you are on top of things they should buy time for an overseer and some Zerglings to make their way over and clean it up with no problems. since we are on the note of corruptors; you do know that the warp prism with the speed upgrade cannot be caught by any zerg units as it becomes the second fastest unit in the game x.x? My concern is how will zerg catch a warp prism with the speed upgrade if it cannot be rooted?
Do Vikings have the speed to chase down Warp Prisms? No, the idea is to zone them out, yes Vikings have longer range so they are better at it, but you also have a fast ground army to keep pace to make sure they don't drop anything out inside your base. If you really want to chase it down, use mutas or kill it once it goes into phaze mode (Queens help with this).
Edit: I don't know where you got second fastest unit in the game. According to my calculations and Liquipedia, Speed Zerglings (4.6991), Mutalisks (3.75), Hellions(4.25) and Phoenixes (4.25) are all faster than Speed Prisms (3.375).
Edit2: And Hydras on creep are the same at 3.375 as well as stimmed Marines.
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On November 22 2012 23:28 Sc2Null wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 23:23 Myrddraal wrote:On November 22 2012 22:28 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 21:24 Sissors wrote:On November 22 2012 18:02 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 17:45 Telenil wrote:On November 22 2012 17:16 Big J wrote:
Oh, I think the prism is fine on its own. But I'm not so sure about prism+DT. 1-2spores fall so quickly to DTs, that you basically need overseer coverage everywhere on top of different (more) army coverage. Really, not revealing DTs is stupid imo. It's like they suddenly decide that Terrans can't reveal DTs with scans anymore... Not quite, this is as if Dark Templar couldn't be affected by EMPs any more. And the problem I see with DTs, is not just the "whoops, you have no overseer+army parked at one of those 3vital locations, now you lose the game"-effect, its also that you cannot prevent them from getting away anymore. Top pros simply won't lose DTs anymore, when harassing with them in PvZ. What is this obsession of the race with the fastest units ingame that they need to be able to completely root all units to kill them? How wouldnt you lose DTs anymore if you cant root them? Terran also has no rooting abilities, yet we have also no issues with killing DTs. Yes we have scan, but overseer > raven and spore crawler > missile turret for detection, so I really dont see any reason why you wouldnt be able to kill a DT without root. (Same for speed prisms, terran also cant root them, yet we can counter them fine). Sorry, starting now I'm just gonna kill the prism with my roaches and zerglings. You opened my eyes, Protoss cannot pick up DTs, because my mineral only unit is the best GtA unit in the game, thanks for reminding me. Also the fact that my spores only have ~60% of your turrets dps really helps me killing those pesky warp prisms more easily. please come up with more strawmans, I have never said I want to root something. I wouldn't call those strawmans, they actually hold up quite fine. Your counter arguments on the other hand are much less sturdy. Saying something dumb like wishing for roaches and zerglings to shoot up doesn't prove anything. How hard is it to split off a couple of corrupters to fend off a warp prism (or Mutas if your opponent was foolish enough to send one out when you have Mutas on the map)? And a couple of spores may fall to DT's, but if you are on top of things they should buy time for an overseer and some Zerglings to make their way over and clean it up with no problems. since we are on the note of corruptors; you do know that the warp prism with the speed upgrade cannot be caught by any zerg units as it becomes the second fastest unit in the game x.x? My concern is how will zerg catch a warp prism with the speed upgrade if it cannot be rooted?
That is simply false information. I'm going to copy + paste from a Battle.net forum post about unit speeds, which just makes this more sad how wrong you are:
Speeds of starcraft 2 units from fastest to slowest:
7.50 Interceptor (acording to SC2armory.com)
6.11 Speedling on creep
6.05 charging Zealot
4.70 Speedling
4.25 Hellion, Pheonix
3.90 upgraded Roach on creep
3.84 Broodling, upgraded Reaper, Zergling on creep, Ultralisk on creep, upgraded Baneling on creep.
3.75 Mutalisk
3.38 stimmed Marine, stimmed Marauder, upgraded Warp Prism, Hydralisk on creep
3.25 Baneling on creep, Infestor on creep
...
Even if you remove units that have their speeds buffed on creep or by charge (or interceptors which you may have been forgetting to count), speedlings, hellions, phoenixes, reapers, and mutalisks are all faster than speed prisms.
Maybe if Protoss is using multiple speed prisms, Zerg can build a few mutas to kill them?
Edit: I came to this thread hoping to find people's reactions from actually playing the balance map. Has anyone actually tried playing the balance map?
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On November 22 2012 23:49 JDub wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 23:28 Sc2Null wrote:On November 22 2012 23:23 Myrddraal wrote:On November 22 2012 22:28 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 21:24 Sissors wrote:On November 22 2012 18:02 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 17:45 Telenil wrote:On November 22 2012 17:16 Big J wrote:
Oh, I think the prism is fine on its own. But I'm not so sure about prism+DT. 1-2spores fall so quickly to DTs, that you basically need overseer coverage everywhere on top of different (more) army coverage. Really, not revealing DTs is stupid imo. It's like they suddenly decide that Terrans can't reveal DTs with scans anymore... Not quite, this is as if Dark Templar couldn't be affected by EMPs any more. And the problem I see with DTs, is not just the "whoops, you have no overseer+army parked at one of those 3vital locations, now you lose the game"-effect, its also that you cannot prevent them from getting away anymore. Top pros simply won't lose DTs anymore, when harassing with them in PvZ. What is this obsession of the race with the fastest units ingame that they need to be able to completely root all units to kill them? How wouldnt you lose DTs anymore if you cant root them? Terran also has no rooting abilities, yet we have also no issues with killing DTs. Yes we have scan, but overseer > raven and spore crawler > missile turret for detection, so I really dont see any reason why you wouldnt be able to kill a DT without root. (Same for speed prisms, terran also cant root them, yet we can counter them fine). Sorry, starting now I'm just gonna kill the prism with my roaches and zerglings. You opened my eyes, Protoss cannot pick up DTs, because my mineral only unit is the best GtA unit in the game, thanks for reminding me. Also the fact that my spores only have ~60% of your turrets dps really helps me killing those pesky warp prisms more easily. please come up with more strawmans, I have never said I want to root something. I wouldn't call those strawmans, they actually hold up quite fine. Your counter arguments on the other hand are much less sturdy. Saying something dumb like wishing for roaches and zerglings to shoot up doesn't prove anything. How hard is it to split off a couple of corrupters to fend off a warp prism (or Mutas if your opponent was foolish enough to send one out when you have Mutas on the map)? And a couple of spores may fall to DT's, but if you are on top of things they should buy time for an overseer and some Zerglings to make their way over and clean it up with no problems. since we are on the note of corruptors; you do know that the warp prism with the speed upgrade cannot be caught by any zerg units as it becomes the second fastest unit in the game x.x? My concern is how will zerg catch a warp prism with the speed upgrade if it cannot be rooted? That is simply false information. I'm going to copy + paste from a Battle.net forum post about unit speeds, which just makes this more sad how wrong you are: Show nested quote +Speeds of starcraft 2 units from fastest to slowest:
7.50 Interceptor (acording to SC2armory.com)
6.11 Speedling on creep
6.05 charging Zealot
4.70 Speedling
4.25 Hellion, Pheonix
3.90 upgraded Roach on creep
3.84 Broodling, upgraded Reaper, Zergling on creep, Ultralisk on creep, upgraded Baneling on creep.
3.75 Mutalisk
3.38 stimmed Marine, stimmed Marauder, upgraded Warp Prism, Hydralisk on creep
3.25 Baneling on creep, Infestor on creep
... Even if you remove units that have their speeds buffed on creep or by charge (or interceptors which you may have been forgetting to count), speedlings, hellions, phoenixes, reapers, and mutalisks are all faster than speed prisms. Maybe if Protoss is using multiple speed prisms, Zerg can build a few mutas to kill them? Edit: I came to this thread hoping to find people's reactions from actually playing the balance map. Has anyone actually tried playing the balance map?
I think the fact that people are complaining about being unable to kill DT's AND Warp Prism's almost proves that Infestors have been given too much utility and Zerg's have become complacent with being able to deal with everything with them.
I don't want Infestors to be bad I just want them to not be the ultimate solution to any problem.
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On November 22 2012 23:23 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 22:28 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 21:24 Sissors wrote:On November 22 2012 18:02 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 17:45 Telenil wrote:On November 22 2012 17:16 Big J wrote:
Oh, I think the prism is fine on its own. But I'm not so sure about prism+DT. 1-2spores fall so quickly to DTs, that you basically need overseer coverage everywhere on top of different (more) army coverage. Really, not revealing DTs is stupid imo. It's like they suddenly decide that Terrans can't reveal DTs with scans anymore... Not quite, this is as if Dark Templar couldn't be affected by EMPs any more. And the problem I see with DTs, is not just the "whoops, you have no overseer+army parked at one of those 3vital locations, now you lose the game"-effect, its also that you cannot prevent them from getting away anymore. Top pros simply won't lose DTs anymore, when harassing with them in PvZ. What is this obsession of the race with the fastest units ingame that they need to be able to completely root all units to kill them? How wouldnt you lose DTs anymore if you cant root them? Terran also has no rooting abilities, yet we have also no issues with killing DTs. Yes we have scan, but overseer > raven and spore crawler > missile turret for detection, so I really dont see any reason why you wouldnt be able to kill a DT without root. (Same for speed prisms, terran also cant root them, yet we can counter them fine). Sorry, starting now I'm just gonna kill the prism with my roaches and zerglings. You opened my eyes, Protoss cannot pick up DTs, because my mineral only unit is the best GtA unit in the game, thanks for reminding me. Also the fact that my spores only have ~60% of your turrets dps really helps me killing those pesky warp prisms more easily. please come up with more strawmans, I have never said I want to root something. I wouldn't call those strawmans, they actually hold up quite fine. Your counter arguments on the other hand are much less sturdy. Saying something dumb like wishing for roaches and zerglings to shoot up doesn't prove anything. How hard is it to split off a couple of corrupters to fend off a warp prism (or Mutas if your opponent was foolish enough to send one out when you have Mutas on the map)? And a couple of spores may fall to DT's, but if you are on top of things they should buy time for an overseer and some Zerglings to make their way over and clean it up with no problems.
His argument was that I wanted a root. I never said I want a root. Therefore it's a strawmen.
Even more it is a strawmen, because he compares the T and Z options. Noone actually cares for Terrans detection options in the PvZ metagame.
And I didn't say that I "wish" ling/roach could shoot up. With that I was saying that T and Z vs DT situations are not comparable, because T can kill prisms with the same units that kill the warp in.
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On November 22 2012 23:30 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 23:28 Sc2Null wrote:On November 22 2012 23:23 Myrddraal wrote:On November 22 2012 22:28 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 21:24 Sissors wrote:On November 22 2012 18:02 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 17:45 Telenil wrote:On November 22 2012 17:16 Big J wrote:
Oh, I think the prism is fine on its own. But I'm not so sure about prism+DT. 1-2spores fall so quickly to DTs, that you basically need overseer coverage everywhere on top of different (more) army coverage. Really, not revealing DTs is stupid imo. It's like they suddenly decide that Terrans can't reveal DTs with scans anymore... Not quite, this is as if Dark Templar couldn't be affected by EMPs any more. And the problem I see with DTs, is not just the "whoops, you have no overseer+army parked at one of those 3vital locations, now you lose the game"-effect, its also that you cannot prevent them from getting away anymore. Top pros simply won't lose DTs anymore, when harassing with them in PvZ. What is this obsession of the race with the fastest units ingame that they need to be able to completely root all units to kill them? How wouldnt you lose DTs anymore if you cant root them? Terran also has no rooting abilities, yet we have also no issues with killing DTs. Yes we have scan, but overseer > raven and spore crawler > missile turret for detection, so I really dont see any reason why you wouldnt be able to kill a DT without root. (Same for speed prisms, terran also cant root them, yet we can counter them fine). Sorry, starting now I'm just gonna kill the prism with my roaches and zerglings. You opened my eyes, Protoss cannot pick up DTs, because my mineral only unit is the best GtA unit in the game, thanks for reminding me. Also the fact that my spores only have ~60% of your turrets dps really helps me killing those pesky warp prisms more easily. please come up with more strawmans, I have never said I want to root something. I wouldn't call those strawmans, they actually hold up quite fine. Your counter arguments on the other hand are much less sturdy. Saying something dumb like wishing for roaches and zerglings to shoot up doesn't prove anything. How hard is it to split off a couple of corrupters to fend off a warp prism (or Mutas if your opponent was foolish enough to send one out when you have Mutas on the map)? And a couple of spores may fall to DT's, but if you are on top of things they should buy time for an overseer and some Zerglings to make their way over and clean it up with no problems. since we are on the note of corruptors; you do know that the warp prism with the speed upgrade cannot be caught by any zerg units as it becomes the second fastest unit in the game x.x? My concern is how will zerg catch a warp prism with the speed upgrade if it cannot be rooted? Do Vikings have the speed to chase down Warp Prisms? No, the idea is to zone them out, yes Vikings have longer range so they are better at it, but you also have a fast ground army to keep pace to make sure they don't drop anything out inside your base. If you really want to chase it down, use mutas or kill it once it goes into phaze mode (Queens help with this). Edit: I don't know where you got second fastest unit in the game. According to my calculations and Liquipedia, Speed Zerglings (4.6991), Mutalisks (3.75), Hellions(4.25) and Phoenixes (4.25) are all faster than Speed Prisms (3.375). Edit2: And Hydras on creep are the same at 3.375 as well as stimmed Marines.
Mutas are about as good at killing speed prisms as slow lings are at killing scouting workers. The difference is that a handful of stim marines can kill it in a second, while a queen will have died to the warpin long before the speed prism dies. And as for our fast ground army, the whole point of these changes was supposed to be for a phase in the game where that army has been replaced.
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On November 22 2012 23:54 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 23:49 JDub wrote:On November 22 2012 23:28 Sc2Null wrote:On November 22 2012 23:23 Myrddraal wrote:On November 22 2012 22:28 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 21:24 Sissors wrote:On November 22 2012 18:02 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 17:45 Telenil wrote:On November 22 2012 17:16 Big J wrote:
Oh, I think the prism is fine on its own. But I'm not so sure about prism+DT. 1-2spores fall so quickly to DTs, that you basically need overseer coverage everywhere on top of different (more) army coverage. Really, not revealing DTs is stupid imo. It's like they suddenly decide that Terrans can't reveal DTs with scans anymore... Not quite, this is as if Dark Templar couldn't be affected by EMPs any more. And the problem I see with DTs, is not just the "whoops, you have no overseer+army parked at one of those 3vital locations, now you lose the game"-effect, its also that you cannot prevent them from getting away anymore. Top pros simply won't lose DTs anymore, when harassing with them in PvZ. What is this obsession of the race with the fastest units ingame that they need to be able to completely root all units to kill them? How wouldnt you lose DTs anymore if you cant root them? Terran also has no rooting abilities, yet we have also no issues with killing DTs. Yes we have scan, but overseer > raven and spore crawler > missile turret for detection, so I really dont see any reason why you wouldnt be able to kill a DT without root. (Same for speed prisms, terran also cant root them, yet we can counter them fine). Sorry, starting now I'm just gonna kill the prism with my roaches and zerglings. You opened my eyes, Protoss cannot pick up DTs, because my mineral only unit is the best GtA unit in the game, thanks for reminding me. Also the fact that my spores only have ~60% of your turrets dps really helps me killing those pesky warp prisms more easily. please come up with more strawmans, I have never said I want to root something. I wouldn't call those strawmans, they actually hold up quite fine. Your counter arguments on the other hand are much less sturdy. Saying something dumb like wishing for roaches and zerglings to shoot up doesn't prove anything. How hard is it to split off a couple of corrupters to fend off a warp prism (or Mutas if your opponent was foolish enough to send one out when you have Mutas on the map)? And a couple of spores may fall to DT's, but if you are on top of things they should buy time for an overseer and some Zerglings to make their way over and clean it up with no problems. since we are on the note of corruptors; you do know that the warp prism with the speed upgrade cannot be caught by any zerg units as it becomes the second fastest unit in the game x.x? My concern is how will zerg catch a warp prism with the speed upgrade if it cannot be rooted? That is simply false information. I'm going to copy + paste from a Battle.net forum post about unit speeds, which just makes this more sad how wrong you are: Speeds of starcraft 2 units from fastest to slowest:
7.50 Interceptor (acording to SC2armory.com)
6.11 Speedling on creep
6.05 charging Zealot
4.70 Speedling
4.25 Hellion, Pheonix
3.90 upgraded Roach on creep
3.84 Broodling, upgraded Reaper, Zergling on creep, Ultralisk on creep, upgraded Baneling on creep.
3.75 Mutalisk
3.38 stimmed Marine, stimmed Marauder, upgraded Warp Prism, Hydralisk on creep
3.25 Baneling on creep, Infestor on creep
... Even if you remove units that have their speeds buffed on creep or by charge (or interceptors which you may have been forgetting to count), speedlings, hellions, phoenixes, reapers, and mutalisks are all faster than speed prisms. Maybe if Protoss is using multiple speed prisms, Zerg can build a few mutas to kill them? Edit: I came to this thread hoping to find people's reactions from actually playing the balance map. Has anyone actually tried playing the balance map? I think the fact that people are complaining about being unable to kill DT's AND Warp Prism's almost proves that Infestors have been given too much utility and Zerg's have become complacent with being able to deal with everything with them. I don't want Infestors to be bad I just want them to not be the ultimate solution to any problem.
It's not a matter of complacency, but of necessity. I don't think many zergs would mind too much about the infestors being less of a swiss army knife if we were given realistic alternatives for dealing with those situations (eg. a useful hydra), but nothing is being discussed in that department.
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On November 22 2012 23:55 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 23:23 Myrddraal wrote:On November 22 2012 22:28 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 21:24 Sissors wrote:On November 22 2012 18:02 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 17:45 Telenil wrote:On November 22 2012 17:16 Big J wrote:
Oh, I think the prism is fine on its own. But I'm not so sure about prism+DT. 1-2spores fall so quickly to DTs, that you basically need overseer coverage everywhere on top of different (more) army coverage. Really, not revealing DTs is stupid imo. It's like they suddenly decide that Terrans can't reveal DTs with scans anymore... Not quite, this is as if Dark Templar couldn't be affected by EMPs any more. And the problem I see with DTs, is not just the "whoops, you have no overseer+army parked at one of those 3vital locations, now you lose the game"-effect, its also that you cannot prevent them from getting away anymore. Top pros simply won't lose DTs anymore, when harassing with them in PvZ. What is this obsession of the race with the fastest units ingame that they need to be able to completely root all units to kill them? How wouldnt you lose DTs anymore if you cant root them? Terran also has no rooting abilities, yet we have also no issues with killing DTs. Yes we have scan, but overseer > raven and spore crawler > missile turret for detection, so I really dont see any reason why you wouldnt be able to kill a DT without root. (Same for speed prisms, terran also cant root them, yet we can counter them fine). Sorry, starting now I'm just gonna kill the prism with my roaches and zerglings. You opened my eyes, Protoss cannot pick up DTs, because my mineral only unit is the best GtA unit in the game, thanks for reminding me. Also the fact that my spores only have ~60% of your turrets dps really helps me killing those pesky warp prisms more easily. please come up with more strawmans, I have never said I want to root something. I wouldn't call those strawmans, they actually hold up quite fine. Your counter arguments on the other hand are much less sturdy. Saying something dumb like wishing for roaches and zerglings to shoot up doesn't prove anything. How hard is it to split off a couple of corrupters to fend off a warp prism (or Mutas if your opponent was foolish enough to send one out when you have Mutas on the map)? And a couple of spores may fall to DT's, but if you are on top of things they should buy time for an overseer and some Zerglings to make their way over and clean it up with no problems. His argument was that I wanted a root. I never said I want a root. Therefore it's a strawmen. Even more it is a strawmen, because he compares the T and Z options. Noone actually cares for Terrans detection options in the PvZ metagame. And I didn't say that I "wish" ling/roach could shoot up. With that I was saying that T and Z vs DT situations are not comparable, because T can kill prisms with the same units that kill the warp in.
You said specifically that the problem was that you can't prevent them from getting away anymore, since the only thing you would no longer have for preventing them from getting away is the root from fungal, that implies that you want to be able to root them. Therefore, his argument holds fine.
By using ling/roach as an example, you are ignoring the fact that you should have queens in your base which can shoot the prism, also Vikings are much better at zoning out Warp Prism's than marines, Corrupters are a better comparison and are a valid comparison. Therefore, his argument stands and yours falls over.
Edit: I suppose you can't decloak DT's anymore, but that only stops them from being detected, is it really much harder to move over an overseer as opposed to an Infestor?
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On November 23 2012 00:02 Purple Haze wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2012 23:54 Myrddraal wrote:On November 22 2012 23:49 JDub wrote:On November 22 2012 23:28 Sc2Null wrote:On November 22 2012 23:23 Myrddraal wrote:On November 22 2012 22:28 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 21:24 Sissors wrote:On November 22 2012 18:02 Big J wrote:On November 22 2012 17:45 Telenil wrote:On November 22 2012 17:16 Big J wrote:
Oh, I think the prism is fine on its own. But I'm not so sure about prism+DT. 1-2spores fall so quickly to DTs, that you basically need overseer coverage everywhere on top of different (more) army coverage. Really, not revealing DTs is stupid imo. It's like they suddenly decide that Terrans can't reveal DTs with scans anymore... Not quite, this is as if Dark Templar couldn't be affected by EMPs any more. And the problem I see with DTs, is not just the "whoops, you have no overseer+army parked at one of those 3vital locations, now you lose the game"-effect, its also that you cannot prevent them from getting away anymore. Top pros simply won't lose DTs anymore, when harassing with them in PvZ. What is this obsession of the race with the fastest units ingame that they need to be able to completely root all units to kill them? How wouldnt you lose DTs anymore if you cant root them? Terran also has no rooting abilities, yet we have also no issues with killing DTs. Yes we have scan, but overseer > raven and spore crawler > missile turret for detection, so I really dont see any reason why you wouldnt be able to kill a DT without root. (Same for speed prisms, terran also cant root them, yet we can counter them fine). Sorry, starting now I'm just gonna kill the prism with my roaches and zerglings. You opened my eyes, Protoss cannot pick up DTs, because my mineral only unit is the best GtA unit in the game, thanks for reminding me. Also the fact that my spores only have ~60% of your turrets dps really helps me killing those pesky warp prisms more easily. please come up with more strawmans, I have never said I want to root something. I wouldn't call those strawmans, they actually hold up quite fine. Your counter arguments on the other hand are much less sturdy. Saying something dumb like wishing for roaches and zerglings to shoot up doesn't prove anything. How hard is it to split off a couple of corrupters to fend off a warp prism (or Mutas if your opponent was foolish enough to send one out when you have Mutas on the map)? And a couple of spores may fall to DT's, but if you are on top of things they should buy time for an overseer and some Zerglings to make their way over and clean it up with no problems. since we are on the note of corruptors; you do know that the warp prism with the speed upgrade cannot be caught by any zerg units as it becomes the second fastest unit in the game x.x? My concern is how will zerg catch a warp prism with the speed upgrade if it cannot be rooted? That is simply false information. I'm going to copy + paste from a Battle.net forum post about unit speeds, which just makes this more sad how wrong you are: Speeds of starcraft 2 units from fastest to slowest:
7.50 Interceptor (acording to SC2armory.com)
6.11 Speedling on creep
6.05 charging Zealot
4.70 Speedling
4.25 Hellion, Pheonix
3.90 upgraded Roach on creep
3.84 Broodling, upgraded Reaper, Zergling on creep, Ultralisk on creep, upgraded Baneling on creep.
3.75 Mutalisk
3.38 stimmed Marine, stimmed Marauder, upgraded Warp Prism, Hydralisk on creep
3.25 Baneling on creep, Infestor on creep
... Even if you remove units that have their speeds buffed on creep or by charge (or interceptors which you may have been forgetting to count), speedlings, hellions, phoenixes, reapers, and mutalisks are all faster than speed prisms. Maybe if Protoss is using multiple speed prisms, Zerg can build a few mutas to kill them? Edit: I came to this thread hoping to find people's reactions from actually playing the balance map. Has anyone actually tried playing the balance map? I think the fact that people are complaining about being unable to kill DT's AND Warp Prism's almost proves that Infestors have been given too much utility and Zerg's have become complacent with being able to deal with everything with them. I don't want Infestors to be bad I just want them to not be the ultimate solution to any problem. It's not a matter of complacency, but of necessity. I don't think many zergs would mind too much about the infestors being less of a swiss army knife if we were given realistic alternatives for dealing with those situations (eg. a useful hydra), but nothing is being discussed in that department.
If you can't think of realistic alternatives for killing DT's and Warp Prism's other than Infestors then I don't know what to say to you. It's really not that difficult, and don't forget DT's aren't cheap, it's not like the Protoss player is getting free harassment here.
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Zergs had to have overlords at all their bases in broodwar in order to detect DTs and stuff
I don't understand why zergs can't do the same with overseers in sc2?
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