EPTHonestly, I’m surprised that there are this many dissatisfied readers. I guess I should have explained my intention better. This thread is not meant to provide people a method to improve their creep spread by itself. Instead, this is an attempt to derive a model that explains the degree of creep spread that players perform. In a sense, I am trying to provide a thermometer when people are boiling water because no one before me had one, but some people don’t care much about current temperature and instead demand better fuel to boil water faster. I’m afraid a thermometer vendor can’t satisfy those who want to buy fuel. Expectation is wrong there. Also, this thermometer is not meant to work in every situation, at least not yet. It’s still a crude one. Only a state-of-art thermometer would be able to measure with multiple factors such as distance, direction, speed etc. incorporated. No one can provide a sophisticated thermometer at this point despite many people’s very high expectation. I guess these mismatches between my intention and people’s expectation pretty much sum up the feedback. I wish I knew a better way to get across my ideas.
Thank you Cirqueenflex and radscorpion9 for the correction. Domains should have been 45=<x and 90=<x. Editing now. I’m the one who was just stupid and tired :D
On November 10 2012 10:42 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Interesting theory. How quickly do you reach the cap on effective creep tumors for spreading?
Player's APM cap comes much earlier, and the cap on effective creep tumors depends on maps. I'm afraid it's not considered in my model.Interesting theory. How quickly do you reach the cap on effective creep tumors for spreading?
On November 10 2012 11:23 Filter wrote:
How long would it take a Terran to actually clear that and cross the map with an army? Luckily very few Zergs even in the pro ranks have the skills required to have creep spread that good, but in a perfect world they would have those skills. At what point would a Terran be able to actually attack/what would be the economic cost in terms of scans to cross it?
Once the model with distance is figured out, it's a very interesting question. At certain point, I feel having a raven is more economic than spending, say, 5 scans.How long would it take a Terran to actually clear that and cross the map with an army? Luckily very few Zergs even in the pro ranks have the skills required to have creep spread that good, but in a perfect world they would have those skills. At what point would a Terran be able to actually attack/what would be the economic cost in terms of scans to cross it?
On November 10 2012 11:37 chuminh wrote:
reading from the tables, I assume that this equation is for spreading creep from 1 queen only? if player uses 2 queens ( I guess Scarlett uses more than 1 queen to spread from what I saw, then the efficiency must be lower in half.). Am I wrong?
Efficiency is within the same build. 60% with 4 queen build has a better creep spread than 60% with 3 queen build. If one wants to compare between 2 different builds, using the number of creep tumors itself is more useful than comparing %.reading from the tables, I assume that this equation is for spreading creep from 1 queen only? if player uses 2 queens ( I guess Scarlett uses more than 1 queen to spread from what I saw, then the efficiency must be lower in half.). Am I wrong?
On November 10 2012 12:18 TheGreenMachine wrote:
TBH i didnt learn anything here thats useful in game... was there anything useful other than a rough idea of what potential creep spread # of tumors is?
Not meant to improve anyone's play in game with this information alone.TBH i didnt learn anything here thats useful in game... was there anything useful other than a rough idea of what potential creep spread # of tumors is?
On November 10 2012 15:16 radscorpion9 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
I liked reading your proof, I think you did make an error though like Cirqueenflex noted. I'm pretty sure that the domain for those example functions you listed should have had x => 45,90,etc., since those functions only begin to exist at x = 45,90.
And even if they did somehow exist before 45,90 (etc.) then you would have negative creep tumors (tons of negative creep tumors for a large n!), which doesn't make sense.
I think that's the only confusing part. The only other aspect is when you give a closed form expression for the sum of n positive integers.
But that should be easy to reproduce so that people can clearly see how its derived. You could use Gauss' proof for the some of n integers. Just add the series going forwards with the series going backwards, and you get (1/2)(n)(n+1). I learned it in university by the way
.
In case anyone's interested, for the sum of the first n positive integers (its really small!):
+ Show Spoiler +
Sn = 1 + 2 + 3 + ... + n
Sn = n + (n-1) + (n-2) + ... + 1
So if you add the sums, you get: 2Sn = (1 + n) + (1 + n) + (1 + n) + ... + (1 + n)
But clearly since there are n terms, then there are n (1+n) terms. Then 2Sn = n(1 + n) and Sn = (1/2)(n)(1 + n)
Gauss supposedly discovered this as a child, when a teacher told him to add the numbers from 1 to 100 as a form of punishment in grade school. Gauss rules!
I have to agree with other people in the thread, this analysis actually doesn't answer the core question: How fast can you cover the map with creep? All it does is talk about the number of creep tumors that you can make using one queen + the older ones.
Ultimately the rate of creep spread needs to be included for this analysis to be meaningful, and also production of secondary or tertiary queens at hatcheries to spread extra creep as well. Aren't creep tumors limited (in terms of placement) by how fast the creep extends? Also don't multiple creep tumors increase the rate of creep spread? So what is the optimal balance? None of this was really covered, it was just a formula that shows you how the *number* of creep tumors increases. It would be better to discover what the ideal scenario for generation of creep would be to cover the map as fast as possible using the least number of queens (possibly also taking into account terrain changes).
Perhaps it would also be worthwhile to investigate how fast the map could be covered with the aid of overlords generating creep, so that creep tumors can be placed to their furthest extent without having to wait for the creep to extend normally?
I know its a lot to ask, but these are the kinds of questions that would need to be answered. I commend the OP on his work, it certainly does help in some simpler ways from his examples, but it needs to be improved upon for people to extract something more meaningful out of it.
Thank you very much for your supplement and suggestions. Your ideas as to what this research should lead to is spot-on. I hope this introductory work can help for those deeper analyses.+ Show Spoiler +
I liked reading your proof, I think you did make an error though like Cirqueenflex noted. I'm pretty sure that the domain for those example functions you listed should have had x => 45,90,etc., since those functions only begin to exist at x = 45,90.
And even if they did somehow exist before 45,90 (etc.) then you would have negative creep tumors (tons of negative creep tumors for a large n!), which doesn't make sense.
I think that's the only confusing part. The only other aspect is when you give a closed form expression for the sum of n positive integers.
But that should be easy to reproduce so that people can clearly see how its derived. You could use Gauss' proof for the some of n integers. Just add the series going forwards with the series going backwards, and you get (1/2)(n)(n+1). I learned it in university by the way
.In case anyone's interested, for the sum of the first n positive integers (its really small!):
+ Show Spoiler +
Sn = 1 + 2 + 3 + ... + n
Sn = n + (n-1) + (n-2) + ... + 1
So if you add the sums, you get: 2Sn = (1 + n) + (1 + n) + (1 + n) + ... + (1 + n)
But clearly since there are n terms, then there are n (1+n) terms. Then 2Sn = n(1 + n) and Sn = (1/2)(n)(1 + n)
Gauss supposedly discovered this as a child, when a teacher told him to add the numbers from 1 to 100 as a form of punishment in grade school. Gauss rules!
On November 10 2012 12:27 D_K_night wrote:
...You're missing the entire point of this. What is the theoretical, fastest possible way to creep up the entire map, backed up by solid math and evidence? This post is it. Please don't be so condescending, especially when, in your words, "there is nothing concrete" that you could even come up with any of this.
...You're missing the entire point of this. What is the theoretical, fastest possible way to creep up the entire map, backed up by solid math and evidence? This post is it. Please don't be so condescending, especially when, in your words, "there is nothing concrete" that you could even come up with any of this.
I have to agree with other people in the thread, this analysis actually doesn't answer the core question: How fast can you cover the map with creep? All it does is talk about the number of creep tumors that you can make using one queen + the older ones.
Ultimately the rate of creep spread needs to be included for this analysis to be meaningful, and also production of secondary or tertiary queens at hatcheries to spread extra creep as well. Aren't creep tumors limited (in terms of placement) by how fast the creep extends? Also don't multiple creep tumors increase the rate of creep spread? So what is the optimal balance? None of this was really covered, it was just a formula that shows you how the *number* of creep tumors increases. It would be better to discover what the ideal scenario for generation of creep would be to cover the map as fast as possible using the least number of queens (possibly also taking into account terrain changes).
Perhaps it would also be worthwhile to investigate how fast the map could be covered with the aid of overlords generating creep, so that creep tumors can be placed to their furthest extent without having to wait for the creep to extend normally?
I know its a lot to ask, but these are the kinds of questions that would need to be answered. I commend the OP on his work, it certainly does help in some simpler ways from his examples, but it needs to be improved upon for people to extract something more meaningful out of it.
Now you can work on creep range model 
