• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 16:19
CEST 22:19
KST 05:19
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection2Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview5[ASL21] Finals Preview: Two Legacies21Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO12 Preview2herO wins GSL Code S Season 1 (2026)7
Community News
StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th117Weekly Cups (May 18-25): MaxPax wins doubles0Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League5Weekly Cups (May 11-17): Classic wins double1Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO8 Results2
StarCraft 2
General
StarCraft II 5.0.16 PTR Patch Notes may 26th TL.net Map Contest #22 - Voting & Ladder Map Selection The death of cheese, from a professional cheeser. Code S Season 2 (2026) - RO8 Preview TL Poll: How do you feel about the 5.0.16 PTR balance changes?
Tourneys
Maestros of The Game 2 announcement and schedule ! RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event Crank Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League GSL Code S Season 2 (2026) Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players
External Content
The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 528 Infection Detected Welcome to the External Content forum Mutation # 527 Hell Train
Brood War
General
Data needed BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Quality of life changes in BW that you will like ? Soma's ASL Finals Review FlaShFTW vs A.Alm Grudge Match Event
Tourneys
[ASL21] Grand Finals [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2 [BSL22] WB Final & LB Semis - Saturday 21:00 CEST
Strategy
Any training maps people recommend? Muta micro map competition [G] Hydra ZvZ: An Introduction Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne ZeroSpace Megathread Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Trading/Investing Thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Dating: How's your luck?
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books
Sports
McBoner: A hockey love story 2024 - 2026 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread Facing Challenges in Mobile App Development
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Esportsmanship: How to NOT B…
TrAiDoS
Why RTS gamers make better f…
gosubay
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
ASL S21 English Commentary…
namkraft
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 4239 users

Dependent Journalism and its Constraints (AA) - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 All
Richard_Lewis
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United Kingdom446 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-16 17:38:42
January 16 2013 17:32 GMT
#41
You made a lot inaccurate points at the time and those still haven't been addressed by a bump.


I only see one you mentioned. Are there any others?

You make points I agree with but you've took a very small cross section of our work and lumped us in with everyone else. In our busy periods we publish about six features a week. Many of these are opinion based. That small amount you have highlighted wasn't.


If this is it, then this is just you unhappy with my assessment of your organization. It doesn't go against the general message and points of this piece.

If there are other inaccuracies, let me know, because with the people I verified the piece with; they didn't claim any.[/QUOTE]

No. I don't care how you assess "my organisation". You have however took a small cross section of examples and then used them to make sweeping statements and generalities.

I'd not feel comfortable making comments about the standard of journalism in any field if that was my methodology.

As the above poster recognises as well, this bump is cheap at best. The piece isn't really relevant to what people are discussing currently. [/QUOTE]

The "cross section of examples" were verified and accepted by both ESFI World and D-Esports (and/or their members heavily involved), neither disagreed or objected, only you. These generalities may be "sweeping", but they're accepted by nearly all parties involved.

If verifying your work by other individuals who are equally credited by similar work or more is insufficient to make comments about the standard of journalism, then you'll find working with others quite difficult.

The bump isn't "cheap" because I get nothing back in terms of actual value (I just like the discussions, all articles are posted in full on Team Liquid), the piece is heavily relevant to the current situation as it pertains to the obligations and issues journalism faces if they don't abide by expected relationships with current news sources and organizations.

You mentioned there were a lot of "inaccuracies". Please state where.
I'll correct where it needs to be corrected, but if you're just here to slander, then I don't think you'll do much at all.


First before I go through your "article" (it's not really feature length) let me advise you to learn something all real journalists understand and that is the difference between slander and libel. I mean, you also need to learn what both of them are as my comments amount to neither in whatever form but it's embarrassing you see anybody claim to be a journalist and get it wrong.

These dilemmas of hurting no one, but trying to please all are what E-Sports journalist sites almost every day.


Missing a word from the sentence but the sentiments are clear. You're saying e-sports journalist sites go out of their way to "try and please everybody". I can't speak for the inner workings of others but having held paid jobs and worked for many sites in the past I can honestly say this has never been on anyone's agenda. More often than not, such as we did at GotFrag and still do at Cadred, we challenge people who try and bully their way into having "e-sports credibility", which is why more often than not these big organisations look to control these sites.

CGS desperately wanted Cadred and GotFrag onside so they could control what we said about them by threatening to remove our access. Neither site relented but we still got to attend events anyway.

Your statement is general and a lazy conclusion based on no evidence (at least presented here) and you speak with no insight due to your inexperience within the industry.

E-Sports Journalism cannot be Independent.


Again, this is little more than a vague opinion you are stating as fact. Cadred does indeed operate independently of all other influences. We report on what we want to, as we want to. When bridges are burned it is never by us, nor do we seek to rebuild them when they are invariably resurrected from the ashes.

No one on the site has influenced a piece of editorial, nor paid for us to alter an opinion. We have run advertising features, although they are infrequent, but they wouldn't prevent us writing an article about the same people paying if there was a public interest requirement for us to do so.

We do work closely with organisations and try and find a happy medium but if something has to be reported there is nothing anyone can say to prevent us from doing so. The site isn't sponsored by anyone, it is the extension of a privately owned business and the owners are dedicated to independent reporting and high quality content, not acting as an extension of anyone's PR division.

All three of these websites are starving for editorials/opinions


Define starving. Our website runs more editorial than any other e-sports site out there, has had guest columns from some of the biggest names in the industry, is home of the longest running e-sports column (which I write) and has regularly published articles deemed "inflammatory".

Does you taking a screenshot of one week of content where the number of informative pieces outweighs editorial really mean the site is starving of the content. Had you looked at the articles on the page before that you'd see there was plenty of editorial content.

Lazy "research" to validate a point.

But, let’s say a news media site does get a pretty juicy story from a reliable source: do you think the source will be named?


Not naming sources who divulge information such as this is nothing to do with e-sports and everything to do with journalistic ethics. I won't bore you with the details here but there's plenty of subject matter for you to study. This point doesn't tie to your article.

Journalists and news sites don’t have this rare ability and neither do their writers independently, not yet.


Here's an example of some of my pieces that say far worse than anything Scoots has done. They were printed on a site "starving" for editorial:

http://www.cadred.org/News/Article/161387/
http://www.cadred.org/News/Article/158712/
http://www.cadred.org/News/Article/139868/
http://www.cadred.org/News/Article/160761/
http://www.cadred.org/News/Article/52969/
http://www.cadred.org/News/Article/44363/

These are examples off the top of my head and there's probably hundreds more. In each piece we call out a person or organisation by name and slate them for what we perceive they have done wrong. If they are liars we call them so. I fail to see what prevents us from doing it.

E-Sports News Media Sites are not self-sustained.


Without knowing what you mean by "self sustained" I can't really address this properly. My gut is you're trying to imply that sites need organisations to survive. I'm afraid this simply isn't true.

As for why you bumped it despite it not being relevant... Reality is you crave attention. This is why you constantly criticise people who have made a significant contribution to the industry you profess to want to work in. It's easier to get noticed by association than it is to go out and make a difference yourself. For someone who claims to be passionate I wonder when you'll start doing some of that.
Editor In Chief of www.cadred.org
Torte de Lini
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany38463 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-01-16 18:05:49
January 16 2013 17:59 GMT
#42
Missing a word from the sentence but the sentiments are clear. You're saying e-sports journalist sites go out of their way to "try and please everybody". I can't speak for the inner workings of others but having held paid jobs and worked for many sites in the past I can honestly say this has never been on anyone's agenda. More often than not, such as we did at GotFrag and still do at Cadred, we challenge people who try and bully their way into having "e-sports credibility", which is why more often than not these big organisations look to control these sites.

CGS desperately wanted Cadred and GotFrag onside so they could control what we said about them by threatening to remove our access. Neither site relented but we still got to attend events anyway.

Your statement is general and a lazy conclusion based on no evidence (at least presented here) and you speak with no insight due to your inexperience within the industry.


No, these aren't lazy conclusions. In essence what I'm stating is that articles are selectively posted and worded in a manner that takes into account the views and points of the organizations. If ESFI World can get kicked out by MLG for trying to interview IPL, then I think my statement has some relevance. Legitimate concerns about organizations are accepted and I didn't clarify on this because it would require more than one page. Legitimate concerns such as MLG's bracket system are issues they're aware of and are commonly accepted by the community. Naturally MLG would prefer not to keep mentioning it, but at the same time, they understand that this is more of a concern and direct criticism than anything to tear down their credibility.

I'm stating that E-Sports journalists make sure not to step on anyone's toes and if you disagree then that's fine, but it's a true fact (based on personal experiences or what has been experienced by others I know - that is the length of some of these "facts"). A good example of this is when ESFI wrote about NaNiwa and the issues related to his behavior and such. When I went on to manage NaNiwa, he would not speak to me due to my previous affiliation with the site as well as his slanted view on how they portrayed him. I also made sure to note that criticisms that are general (for example: "stating all teams lack marketing of their players") are generally accepted because it doesn't single an organization out.

Just because our experiences and work differ doesn't make my perception any different than yours. The circumstances of then and now also greatly differ, especially with the relevance of E-sports news media websites. But if you want to pass that all off for the idea of being "lazy", then that's your choice.

Again, this is little more than a vague opinion you are stating as fact. Cadred does indeed operate independently of all other influences. We report on what we want to, as we want to. When bridges are burned it is never by us, nor do we seek to rebuild them when they are invariably resurrected from the ashes.

No one on the site has influenced a piece of editorial, nor paid for us to alter an opinion. We have run advertising features, although they are infrequent, but they wouldn't prevent us writing an article about the same people paying if there was a public interest requirement for us to do so.

We do work closely with organisations and try and find a happy medium but if something has to be reported there is nothing anyone can say to prevent us from doing so. The site isn't sponsored by anyone, it is the extension of a privately owned business and the owners are dedicated to independent reporting and high quality content, not acting as an extension of anyone's PR division.


All these articles are opinion-based. It's in the introduction and I open every piece with that statement. When I mention non-independent news, I mean that they rely on personal relationships in order to maintain some load of content (interviews/exclusive news such as the examples I gave in the example, etc.). Degrees of independence depend on the organization, obviously. For the sake of being concise, I didn't list all degrees of independent journalism because it doesn't deter from the main points (as summarized at the bottom). This independence also ranges from withholding major criticisms about certain people or issues (which you voice on your social media accounts, but never in a full-fledged article) towards not leaking news before the organization. You can claim that that is personal choice, but that choice is influenced by your rationale that it will hurt both your credibility, your site's reputation and popularity.

Define starving. Our website runs more editorial than any other e-sports site out there, has had guest columns from some of the biggest names in the industry, is home of the longest running e-sports column (which I write) and has regularly published articles deemed "inflammatory".

Does you taking a screenshot of one week of content where the number of informative pieces outweighs editorial really mean the site is starving of the content. Had you looked at the articles on the page before that you'd see there was plenty of editorial content.

Lazy "research" to validate a point.


Congratulations. If you're unhappy with the screenshot. You have your hub and site to disagree and write a counter-piece (which has been done by others and I always help popularize it!)
I used starving because I'm eccentric with words. The lack of consistency and frequency of editorials is the bottom-line of my statement.


As for why you bumped it despite it not being relevant... Reality is you crave attention. This is why you constantly criticise people who have made a significant contribution to the industry you profess to want to work in. It's easier to get noticed by association than it is to go out and make a difference yourself. For someone who claims to be passionate I wonder when you'll start doing some of that.


Unfortunately, it is relevant and even if not by your opinion, I am entirely allowed to do so (report this post if you disagree) and we can have staff decide [which is also more suitable].

Yes, I do enjoy praise and appreciation for my work. I'm not sure what you're revealing here. Do I enjoy writing and other
work? Yep.

I'm not sure where you think I don't work out of "passion", but no; I don't work for the sake of interest only, I work to ensure I have a future after my university degree (within E-Sports? Unlikely and this is a reality we all already know, but the projects and orgs I've worked with have earned me skills beyond the E-Sports sphere). This builds my CV and shows my ability to do more than study and get a degree. Along the way, I have fun as well and I'm sorry to here you so bitterly attack me with adjectives of "lazy" and such.
https://twitter.com/#!/TorteDeLini (@TorteDeLini)
Prev 1 2 3 All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Monday Night Weeklies
16:00
#54
RotterdaM1113
TKL 435
TaKeTV 407
IndyStarCraft 240
ZombieGrub162
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech2791
RotterdaM 1113
mouzHeroMarine 469
TKL 435
IndyStarCraft 240
ZombieGrub162
UpATreeSC 136
EmSc Tv 26
JuggernautJason23
StarCraft: Brood War
Dewaltoss 150
firebathero 88
ajuk12(nOOB) 10
soO 8
Counter-Strike
pashabiceps3310
apEX2642
fl0m2541
shoxiejesuss2337
byalli1769
Pyrionflax176
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu367
Other Games
Grubby4811
Liquid`RaSZi1646
mouzStarbuck282
KnowMe209
Trikslyr53
Mew2King39
Chillindude25
MindelVK8
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV228
StarCraft 2
EmSc Tv 26
EmSc2Tv 26
Other Games
Algost 5
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• kabyraGe 293
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 11
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Lourlo993
• Stunt269
Other Games
• WagamamaTV536
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
3h 41m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
13h 41m
WardiTV Spring Champion…
14h 41m
Maestros of the Game
19h 11m
The PondCast
1d 13h
Kung Fu Cup
1d 14h
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 18h
Maestros of the Game
1d 19h
Replay Cast
2 days
Replay Cast
2 days
[ Show More ]
WardiTV Spring Champion…
2 days
Maestros of the Game
2 days
Replay Cast
3 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
3 days
Maestros of the Game
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Solar vs Classic
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
4 days
GSL
5 days
herO vs Rogue
Maru vs Cure
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
BSL
5 days
Replay Cast
6 days
Monday Night Weeklies
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

KK 2v2 League Season 1
RSL Revival: Season 5
Heroes Pulsing #1

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
CSCL: Masked Kings S4
YSL S3
SCTL 2026 Spring
WardiTV Spring 2026
Maestros of the Game 2
2026 GSL S2
Murky Cup 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026

Upcoming

BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
CSLAN 4
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
CranK Gathers Season 4: BW vs SC2 Team League
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Heroes Pulsing #3
Heroes Pulsing #2
Esports World Cup 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.