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On October 18 2012 03:57 Jebusrocks wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 03:36 felisconcolori wrote:... I can't read Korean. -_- Seeker (or any other awesome wonderful translator people whose names spring into my head), your our only hope. (Sophisticated zing, Waxangel.) The article goes on about when ganzi first began playing SC2, Mvp approached him and they played together. Because IM had a slot open in the amateur division, they tried to acquire Ganzi, telling him that living conditions might be bad. ganzi said that as long as he has a place to play sc2 he doesnt mind and joined, becoming #1 on the ladder in a few months With this increase in skill they decided to enter him in a tourney (dunno which one) but the night before the tourney, Ganzi expressed his interest in joining slayers. The IM coach, sort of disappointed, contacted coach Sung sang Hoon (is that cella), who said they never offered Ganzi anything. The coach apologized and hung up, Ganzi left the house next morning without a "Thank you" or "sorry". Furthermore Ganzi texted the coach, saying that he was no longer welcome in slayers so solve this for me (i think thats what it says, my korean is pretty bad these days). ganzi was never contracted to IM, but the coach was still angry cuz he had accepted Ganzi only a few days into Ganzi's entrance into sc2, and thought Ganzi should be more grateful. He also wasn't sure if he was talking to slayers while he was in the IM house So he approached a bunch of coaches ( I believe all are part of the Sc2 con they had prior to esf). He NEVER advised the group to ban Ganzi from joining a team, rather, he wanted to make sure players couldnt just hop from team to team. He became more mad when Jessica said a bunch of things about IM regarding Ganzi (such as IM was asking 500 000 won for stayin in the player house (of which Jessica claimed there were 18) and that they just fooled around and never played the game) IM coach rebutted, saying that only twelve players were in the house, and that he had never made money from the house, asking 400 000 won from 7 of the players he states that the confederation never hated Slayers for this, but he himself was disappointed at ganzi for never being thankful to him
well i am going to stick with this and believe it, because i like IM, and because the issue with slayers disbanding lies 99% within slayers and it is just poor taste to attack others on the way out.
Slayers would have easily continued if it was not for this J guy and the distrust between players and management.
and honestly, some rivalry is good for esports, like how mvp struggled against slayers terrans (that practice ban hurt him more when mma dismantled him several times)
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On October 18 2012 04:04 m4inbrain wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 04:02 Rhine wrote:On October 18 2012 03:59 ssxsilver wrote:On October 18 2012 03:56 felisconcolori wrote:On October 18 2012 03:51 Lunareste wrote:On October 18 2012 03:46 theonemav wrote:On October 18 2012 03:45 Lunareste wrote:On October 18 2012 03:40 theonemav wrote:On October 18 2012 03:38 zefreak wrote:On October 18 2012 03:37 theonemav wrote:
[quote]
Twisting what? this is one side of the story (hers) which you can clearly see a lack of leadership on her part.
She is basically saying everyone was out to get her and she had no idea why this was happening, which is poor leadership at its core.
Also ripping all your players right when they are going to be looking for jobs is really bad form...
If what she says is accurate then the players don't deserve jobs Yes I'm sure everyone on the team was terrible and she was an angel and the best leader of all time!!!!! happy now? someone must have a crush rofl... If you hate Jessica so much, why not just leave the fucking thread? Giving someone the benefit of the doubt because you suspect their emotions are sincere is not the same as having a crush on someone. Get over yourself. I said she was a poor leader and that does not equal hating someone.... If you think she is a strong leader based on that interview I am interested on hearing why. You're the only person in this entire series of quotes here to ever say anything about what kind of leader she is. I'm not going to give my opinions because they would obviously be lost on you; your bias is quite clear and your disrespect of other forum members "someone must have a crush rofl..." diminishes my wishes to have a conversation of any kind with you. I, sir, am interested in your opinions. Because, from a strictly business management viewpoint, I have to note there appear to be holes in her management style. Leadership is not about dictating on the basis of contract legalities or because you are the manager. (I know, many people in actual management positions fail to grasp this as well.) Based on Jessica's own statements, she seems to lack a comprehensive and unemotionally burdened conflict resolution process - perhaps because of her deep emotional involvement and conviction of looking out for a player's best interests. But I am interested in your opinion on Jessica as a leadership figure. She and Boxer must have done something good. You don't accidently win a GSTL title, develop a consistent winner, and secure early sponsors if you're as incompetent as some members of this thread like to claim they are. You're right and she and her staff deserve credit. But you also don't get everyone to stop respecting you for no reason. Somehow you never hear about other managers/coaches have all these problems. Guess that depends on the age of the guy you want to "corrupt". I actually think its pretty easy to manipulate players into disrespecting someone for no apparent reason. You just need to start something, the rest will come by itself.
You're right and that's a consideration. At the same time, it cannot explain everything. Somehow theWind and the IM coach (other than this issue here ) have always had the respect of their players and their peers. I understand these are 17-20 year olds, but how did this problem get so out of hand with everyone. I think massive miscommunication occurred and/or emotional fighting to make things get this bad in the house. A corrupt manager working on young minds is bad enough...but to get to this stage more has to have happened.
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So everything that happened with SlayerS is Jessica's fault somehow?? I see all of this as more unfortunate than malicious.
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United States15275 Posts
On October 18 2012 04:06 WigglingSquid wrote:
Can someone familiar with korean culture tell us whether this whole "I was so good to them, why did they do this to me" thing is common and accepted in the workplace, or if it is a personal attitude of Jessica's?
This is even more extreme in Japan, where transgressions are supposed to create a mutual bond and all that jazz. Asian countries are usually very communal in nature, and great emphasis is placed on reciprocating the hard work and trust that is put in by your predecessors.
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On October 18 2012 04:05 mikedebo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 03:25 Cygoris wrote:
You don't disband a successful team because you're butt hurt.
+9999
No, you disband because you have no $ponsors and half your roster is unmotivated/quit
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I'd like to see something not written by Jessica, as this feels like it screams "ITS EVERYONE'S FAULT BUT MINE" at me. Everything was against her despite her best, everyone plotted in shadows against her.
Not that any of it is untrue, who knows. I'd just like to see it.
And on the subject of them disbanding in general, that really sucks but I mean come on, who didn't see it coming, especially after Boxer left.
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On October 18 2012 04:08 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 04:06 WigglingSquid wrote:
Can someone familiar with korean culture tell us whether this whole "I was so good to them, why did they do this to me" thing is common and accepted in the workplace, or if it is a personal attitude of Jessica's? Looking at the TSL/IM coaches and whatnot who felt betrayed cause their kindness didn't get repaid by their players, no it's not just jessica.
That would just be SC2. I am genuinely curious whether this is common in korean culture. I think we can easily agree that SC2 teams are very unlikely to fully represent the workplace behaviour that can be expected in SK.
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I guess Jessica does care about the team but I think her method of running the team wasn't good in the first place. Don't think she's really cut out for a managerial job.
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On October 18 2012 04:09 Havik_ wrote:
So everything that happened with SlayerS is Jessica's fault somehow?? I see all of this as more unfortunate than malicious.
And how did you get that idea :o
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On October 18 2012 04:02 Rhine wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 03:59 ssxsilver wrote:On October 18 2012 03:56 felisconcolori wrote:On October 18 2012 03:51 Lunareste wrote:On October 18 2012 03:46 theonemav wrote:On October 18 2012 03:45 Lunareste wrote:On October 18 2012 03:40 theonemav wrote:On October 18 2012 03:38 zefreak wrote:On October 18 2012 03:37 theonemav wrote:On October 18 2012 03:30 deezy wrote:
[quote]
I think you are twisting this too much. If you read the article, it points out that some of these things were out of her reach. You can't account for other peoples' actions especially when the ball isn't in your court. If anything, she deserves more respect for protecting the team and their players. If you don't believe in something, why are you going to join them, especially when they are so quick to turn against you without hearing both sides? Twisting what? this is one side of the story (hers) which you can clearly see a lack of leadership on her part. She is basically saying everyone was out to get her and she had no idea why this was happening, which is poor leadership at its core. Also ripping all your players right when they are going to be looking for jobs is really bad form... If what she says is accurate then the players don't deserve jobs Yes I'm sure everyone on the team was terrible and she was an angel and the best leader of all time!!!!! happy now? someone must have a crush rofl... If you hate Jessica so much, why not just leave the fucking thread? Giving someone the benefit of the doubt because you suspect their emotions are sincere is not the same as having a crush on someone. Get over yourself. I said she was a poor leader and that does not equal hating someone.... If you think she is a strong leader based on that interview I am interested on hearing why. You're the only person in this entire series of quotes here to ever say anything about what kind of leader she is. I'm not going to give my opinions because they would obviously be lost on you; your bias is quite clear and your disrespect of other forum members "someone must have a crush rofl..." diminishes my wishes to have a conversation of any kind with you. I, sir, am interested in your opinions. Because, from a strictly business management viewpoint, I have to note there appear to be holes in her management style. Leadership is not about dictating on the basis of contract legalities or because you are the manager. (I know, many people in actual management positions fail to grasp this as well.) Based on Jessica's own statements, she seems to lack a comprehensive and unemotionally burdened conflict resolution process - perhaps because of her deep emotional involvement and conviction of looking out for a player's best interests. But I am interested in your opinion on Jessica as a leadership figure. She and Boxer must have done something good. You don't accidently win a GSTL title, develop a consistent winner, and secure early sponsors if you're as incompetent as some members of this thread like to claim they are. You're right and she and her staff deserve credit. But you also don't get everyone to stop respecting you for no reason. Somehow you never hear about other managers/coaches have all these problems.
I already stated my opinion, but I think Jessica's overbearing personality probably was a huge factor in that. If what she says in this article is true (particularly the manager J stuff), it's pretty easy to see how the Slayer's house can get so toxic when manager J has the ears of players and I imagine Boxer is dealing with his therapy and other commitments. As for other coaches, it's kinda false to say they don't have these problems when the TSL coach had so many conflicts with player changes (I guess winning is the cure all for everything).
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On October 18 2012 04:09 Havik_ wrote:
So everything that happened with SlayerS is Jessica's fault somehow?? I see all of this as more unfortunate than malicious.
I agree with you in that I don't think Jessica is to blame. I also don't blame the players. It's possible to make an argument that things could have been handled better by everyone involved, and that the entire situation is more emotional than is good for a business enterprise.
If the allegations towards "Manager J" were to be proven out, I'd say he's a major factor, but there are a lot of things coming together for it to end this way.
Truly, the greatest blame lies on <insert name of your most personally hated historical figure here>. Somehow. (Joke to lighten mood.)
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Clearly the Koreans don't know how to have any basic interactions with each other. I don't really care too much that Slayers is disbanding, so long as the actually skilled players are able to compete in more things (foreign teams?). Also, I'm fairly certain Jessica is one of those people that create an aura of incompatibility. With so many rumors, I'm sure there are lies and inconsistencies all over the place. I imagine Jessica is at as much fault as the other players, but since it's coming from Jessica, it is 1-sided.
Anyyyyywayyyyyyy.... This is also why drama should never be public. I care about good SC2 matches, not some cyber-celebrity's personal life.
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On October 18 2012 04:07 ramask2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 04:04 KrazyTrumpet wrote:On October 18 2012 03:59 Swords wrote:
I feel like there's a ton of speculation and accusations happening here without knowing the full story. We have Jessica's side of everything, which is a good start and probably the most comprehensive, as she interacted with all these players. However, I can't in good conscience say nasty stuff about the players and others involved until I get their side of the story. Before we all declare Alicia, MMA, etc. as divas and "bad for esports" we should at least get their side of the story and see more evidence for what's been said here.
I do find it hard to believe that this one team managed to have so much drama, and somehow everyone but Jessica was responsible for it. Even if she wasn't the main cause of drama (and I think she definitely tried to make Slayers the best team it could be) you cannot be in such a position of power and allow this to happen without making some mistakes or errors.
Finally, I think airing all the dirty laundry as the team collapses does nobody any favors. It makes Jessica look like a drama queen. It makes the players look completely unhireable (which sucks for someone like Alicia or MMA who're obviously extremely talented). Finally, it makes the whole Korean scene look shitty with the accusations to ESF, IM, etc. Nobody gained anything from these revelations, people are only going to be hurt by them. Except nothing gets changed/improved if no one talks about it. I'm honestly asking here (not trolling), what could be changed/improved from this in the future? What could we gain from knowing all the drama? Just seems to me like all of the issues here are personal in nature.
To hopefully weed out all the bad apples in ESports? Rekrul did the same thing revealing a lot of the downfalls of OGS and he was heralded a hero on TL. Jessica gets blasted by 1/2 the posters.
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On October 18 2012 03:57 Jebusrocks wrote:... he states that the confederation never hated Slayers for this, but he himself was disappointed at ganzi for never being thankful to him
Now we have a contradiction. What about all the bullying Jessica talked about?
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On October 18 2012 04:06 WigglingSquid wrote:
Can someone familiar with korean culture tell us whether this whole "I was so good to them, why did they do this to me" thing is common and accepted in the workplace, or if it is a personal attitude of Jessica's?
Well having being raised in a Korean household, I guess I'm biased but i thought all cultures were like this lol
Basically, she felt like she gave her team everything she had, Boxer even investing millions of won into the project, she probably felt like her relationship with the Slayers team was more of a family than that of a professional team. Boxer, who has a history with kespa teams, probably wanted to change some things he felt were wrong with kespa teams (just my opinion). So when people start leaving and accusing Jessica of being the problem, of embazzling them out of money, she felt betrayed cuz she thought there was more trust between them. Boxer was probably even more hurt, he gave these players something a lot of kespa players never had, freedom, and now seeing it backfire just demoralized him.
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That's quite a mess Slayers had to deal with.. good lord..
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On October 18 2012 03:55 farnham wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 03:47 Ettick wrote:
Can't say I'm surprised, their team has gone downhill ever since MMA's skill declined to below code S skill levels. It's kind of what happened to oGs after MC left, they had a lot of pretty good players but they didn't have a top-tier player anymore and their team lost a lot of depth, started to do poorly in teamleagues, and then sort of went into disarray before disbanding.
Wait, what the fuck? CoCa, Puzzle, and Min are going to LoL now? That's pretty shocking, they seemed like they were pretty good at SC2...
Well, I wish their players the best of luck finding new teams and that CoCa, Min, and Puzzle do well in LoL. Same happened to tsl First puma left then trickster and fruit dealer left... Then alive, clide and jyp left.... However tsl managed to stay alive somehow with polt and symbol as their new superstars
And if you remember the drama with TSL, they made Coach Lee look to be an absolute douche-bag too. But in the end that turned out to be all nonsense with a fair bit of the players acting like they could do anything they want/clueless kids (like Alive agreeing to a new team without asking for a release from his contract first *after* the entire blowup with Puma leaving b/c he didn't have a contract too).
In fact, the drama between TSL and Fruitdealer/Tester was what got the original eSF disbanded too (that and their drama with FXO).
So I wouldn't be surprised if the new eSF acting like a-holes isn't at least partially true.
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First oGs and now SlayerS, who will be my favourite now  Changed my opinion on quite a few players too...
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On October 18 2012 03:56 felisconcolori wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 03:51 Lunareste wrote:On October 18 2012 03:46 theonemav wrote:On October 18 2012 03:45 Lunareste wrote:On October 18 2012 03:40 theonemav wrote:On October 18 2012 03:38 zefreak wrote:On October 18 2012 03:37 theonemav wrote:On October 18 2012 03:30 deezy wrote:On October 18 2012 03:28 theonemav wrote:On October 18 2012 03:27 zefreak wrote:
[quote]
You are doing some real mental gymnastics to somehow make this Jessica's fault
uh I never said this was her fault... just pointing out this interview really points out her flaws as a leader. I think you are twisting this too much. If you read the article, it points out that some of these things were out of her reach. You can't account for other peoples' actions especially when the ball isn't in your court. If anything, she deserves more respect for protecting the team and their players. If you don't believe in something, why are you going to join them, especially when they are so quick to turn against you without hearing both sides? Twisting what? this is one side of the story (hers) which you can clearly see a lack of leadership on her part. She is basically saying everyone was out to get her and she had no idea why this was happening, which is poor leadership at its core. Also ripping all your players right when they are going to be looking for jobs is really bad form... If what she says is accurate then the players don't deserve jobs Yes I'm sure everyone on the team was terrible and she was an angel and the best leader of all time!!!!! happy now? someone must have a crush rofl... If you hate Jessica so much, why not just leave the fucking thread? Giving someone the benefit of the doubt because you suspect their emotions are sincere is not the same as having a crush on someone. Get over yourself. I said she was a poor leader and that does not equal hating someone.... If you think she is a strong leader based on that interview I am interested on hearing why. You're the only person in this entire series of quotes here to ever say anything about what kind of leader she is. I'm not going to give my opinions because they would obviously be lost on you; your bias is quite clear and your disrespect of other forum members "someone must have a crush rofl..." diminishes my wishes to have a conversation of any kind with you. I, sir, am interested in your opinions. Because, from a strictly business management viewpoint, I have to note there appear to be holes in her management style. Leadership is not about dictating on the basis of contract legalities or because you are the manager. (I know, many people in actual management positions fail to grasp this as well.) Based on Jessica's own statements, she seems to lack a comprehensive and unemotionally burdened conflict resolution process - perhaps because of her deep emotional involvement and conviction of looking out for a player's best interests. But I am interested in your opinion on Jessica as a leadership figure.
You know, we are all human beings with desires and dreams that we strive for. Even in business people are making the decisions and since we are all different means some of our kind have emotions and ethics influencing those decisions. This is actually what mankind probably will never truly learn, to act like human beings treating others with respect and dignity.
BoxeR and Jessica wanted to create a unique place where players could unite, live and practise together while pursuing a philosophy where this team and it's members are rather considered family than colleagues. This whole business talk disgusts me, I feel for BoxeR who got his dream smashed which he put so much effort into.
I really hope he can find his passion again and return as a player one day!
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On October 18 2012 04:11 ssxsilver wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 04:02 Rhine wrote:On October 18 2012 03:59 ssxsilver wrote:On October 18 2012 03:56 felisconcolori wrote:On October 18 2012 03:51 Lunareste wrote:On October 18 2012 03:46 theonemav wrote:On October 18 2012 03:45 Lunareste wrote:On October 18 2012 03:40 theonemav wrote:On October 18 2012 03:38 zefreak wrote:On October 18 2012 03:37 theonemav wrote:
[quote]
Twisting what? this is one side of the story (hers) which you can clearly see a lack of leadership on her part.
She is basically saying everyone was out to get her and she had no idea why this was happening, which is poor leadership at its core.
Also ripping all your players right when they are going to be looking for jobs is really bad form...
If what she says is accurate then the players don't deserve jobs Yes I'm sure everyone on the team was terrible and she was an angel and the best leader of all time!!!!! happy now? someone must have a crush rofl... If you hate Jessica so much, why not just leave the fucking thread? Giving someone the benefit of the doubt because you suspect their emotions are sincere is not the same as having a crush on someone. Get over yourself. I said she was a poor leader and that does not equal hating someone.... If you think she is a strong leader based on that interview I am interested on hearing why. You're the only person in this entire series of quotes here to ever say anything about what kind of leader she is. I'm not going to give my opinions because they would obviously be lost on you; your bias is quite clear and your disrespect of other forum members "someone must have a crush rofl..." diminishes my wishes to have a conversation of any kind with you. I, sir, am interested in your opinions. Because, from a strictly business management viewpoint, I have to note there appear to be holes in her management style. Leadership is not about dictating on the basis of contract legalities or because you are the manager. (I know, many people in actual management positions fail to grasp this as well.) Based on Jessica's own statements, she seems to lack a comprehensive and unemotionally burdened conflict resolution process - perhaps because of her deep emotional involvement and conviction of looking out for a player's best interests. But I am interested in your opinion on Jessica as a leadership figure. She and Boxer must have done something good. You don't accidently win a GSTL title, develop a consistent winner, and secure early sponsors if you're as incompetent as some members of this thread like to claim they are. You're right and she and her staff deserve credit. But you also don't get everyone to stop respecting you for no reason. Somehow you never hear about other managers/coaches have all these problems. I already stated my opinion, but I think Jessica's overbearing personality probably was a huge factor in that. If what she says in this article is true (particularly the manager J stuff), it's pretty easy to see how the Slayer's house can get so toxic when manager J has the ears of players and I imagine Boxer is dealing with his therapy and other commitments. As for other coaches, it's kinda false to say they don't have these problems when the TSL coach had so many conflicts with player changes (I guess winning is the cure all for everything).
You're right, the TSL coach has also had a lot of drama surrounding him, which also makes me weary of him (also why I didn't mention him). The OGS and IM coaches though have not had these problems and pretty much everyone respects them.
I agree with you. I think Jessica's personality may have gotten in the way of a proper resolution with the players. Sure, the manager J stuff is awful, but with better management skills and/or a more unemotional stance, I think the problem would have been lessened. This stuff happens even more so at the pro sports level.
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