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After reading through Destiny's view, watching the showdown between Wheat, PU, iNcontroL, IdrA, and Destiny, and reading a lot of thread debates, some of my personal thoughts on the issue:
1. I really don't understand why so many people think that iNcontroL or IdrA don't wish Blizzard would improve the game. Them stating that they don't want to only rely on Blizzard (because they felt they haven't seen much positive change in the past two years) does not mean that they're fine with the way things currently are in StarCraft 2. Furthermore, this is a point that's repeatedly stated by them- even going so far as to tell Destiny that they agree with him about how Blizzard should be fixing their game.
2. I agree with IdrA and iNcontroL when they argue that there exists other avenues (e.g. tournaments, community advertising, etc.) besides Blizzard that can help hype SC2 and can keep it as a successful e-sport. I also think it's important to note that just because one e-sport is doing extremely well, that doesn't mean another one with slightly less success must be doing poorly or failing or becoming extinct (especially when they're different genres of games, like LoL and SC2). I think that Destiny's original argument (that Blizzard was "the only entity" that could help grow SC2) is a bit of an exaggeration, and even Destiny slowly retracted his argument when debating with the others, saying that Blizzard was actually just the primary source of success, and then merely strawmanning by pointing out that no ex-BW or SC2 player should be complacent with what Blizzard is doing (which has nothing to do with saying that Blizzard is the only way to fix the game).
3. As far as who was acting inappropriate was concerned, I think Destiny lost his cool the most (especially at the end when he hung up on everyone after a snarky little rant about how all the Koreans will leave SC2 and then iNcontroL and IdrA can finally win games again). While iNcontroL and Wheat clearly became very emotional or animated at some points, I feel like a lot of times those appeared to be just in response to a fallacious argument, rather than a truly uncalled for action. IdrA and PU seemed to be in the most control.
4. I like how Wheat pointed out how the success of other e-sports and their video streams may be able to be attributed to SC2 (as it arguably paved the way for others), although I feel that if LoL is more accessible and more easily playable, it may steal some viewers from SC2, and so it could still potentially hurt SC2 a small amount (standard competition). That being said, the growth of e-sports as a whole (something iNcontroL mentioned) is something to be valued, as more of these springing up successfully and famously can only mean more sponsorships and visibility in the real world, and perhaps eventual integration into more cultures and norms.
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On October 29 2012 12:32 BlueBoxSC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 12:29 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On October 29 2012 12:24 my0s wrote:On October 29 2012 12:00 LuckoftheIrish wrote: The problem is that his answer is "Blizzard and only Blizzard." But that's not the case. No, thats pretty much the only answer. There are things the community can do that help, but that might be a combined 10-15% of the big picture. The other 85% rests with Blizzard, and the fact that every other major esport title company right now puts more effort into promoting and supporting their game on a weekly basis then Blizzard has since sc2 was released. There are two ways to look at that. The Destiny way is "the community can only do 15%, it's hopeless." The other way is that there are things we can do to make things better. It might not be much, but we aren't completely powerless to affect the course of our game. We can change things for the better. Things aren't hopeless, far from it, so let's start doing what we can. Agreed, but I think we can optimistically approach the game like your latter clause suggests, but I think we can't ignore the 85% monopoly of control Blizzard has over the game as well. =/
It's not ignoring, It's accepting, accepting that Blizzard isn't going to alter their plans because the community is calling the death of SC2. You do realize how long people have been calling for LAN right?
LAN is not going to benefit Blizzard financially, they will not implement it, no matter how much outcry.
But you know what does benefit blizzard financially? Selling copies of HOTS.
That means expanding the audience of SC2. Blizzard might not listen to us, but they aren't stupid.
It's not like they look at Riot and are thinking "gee, LoL sure is making a lot of money, let's ignore everything about their success completely".
Blizzard are going to do what they are going to do, all the complaints from the last few weeks are OLD, old as fuck. Blizzard has already heard them, and probably weighed the pros and cons, and will be implemented in HOTS if Blizzard thinks it will expand the audience of SC2. Everything Destiny said is oooooolllllllllddddddddddd, and i'm sure that Blizzard knows about them, there are just things that can't be implemented until you ship a new product.
Idra and Incontrol's arguement is acceptance, Blizzard is going to do whatever they are going to do to get the most copies of HOTS sold, regardless of the thousands of people spamming the boards about how to fix SC2, telling them things they already know.
Unless you actually think that Destiny's points are new and revolutionary; things that blizzard hasn't thought of. In that case, I think you underestimate the people who are working on the game.
so yes, let's say 85% of SC2's success lies with Blizzard. What have you or destiny done to improve that 85% of the formula?
There's 15% that we can work with, might as well do our best with that 15%.
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On October 29 2012 13:18 EtohEtoh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 12:32 BlueBoxSC wrote:On October 29 2012 12:29 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On October 29 2012 12:24 my0s wrote:On October 29 2012 12:00 LuckoftheIrish wrote: The problem is that his answer is "Blizzard and only Blizzard." But that's not the case. No, thats pretty much the only answer. There are things the community can do that help, but that might be a combined 10-15% of the big picture. The other 85% rests with Blizzard, and the fact that every other major esport title company right now puts more effort into promoting and supporting their game on a weekly basis then Blizzard has since sc2 was released. There are two ways to look at that. The Destiny way is "the community can only do 15%, it's hopeless." The other way is that there are things we can do to make things better. It might not be much, but we aren't completely powerless to affect the course of our game. We can change things for the better. Things aren't hopeless, far from it, so let's start doing what we can. Agreed, but I think we can optimistically approach the game like your latter clause suggests, but I think we can't ignore the 85% monopoly of control Blizzard has over the game as well. =/ It's not ignoring, It's accepting, accepting that Blizzard isn't going to alter their plans because the community is calling the death of SC2. You do realize how long people have been calling for LAN right? LAN is not going to benefit Blizzard financially, they will not implement it, no matter how much outcry. But you know what does benefit blizzard financially? Selling copies of HOTS. That means expanding the audience of SC2. Blizzard might not listen to us, but they aren't stupid. It's not like they look at Riot and are thinking "gee, LoL sure is making a lot of money, let's ignore everything about their success completely". Blizzard are going to do what they are going to do, all the complaints from the last few weeks are OLD, old as fuck. Blizzard has already heard them, and probably weighed the pros and cons, and will be implemented in HOTS if Blizzard thinks it will expand the audience of SC2. Everything Destiny said is oooooolllllllllddddddddddd, and i'm sure that Blizzard knows about them, there are just things that can't be implemented until you ship a new product. Idra and Incontrol's arguement is acceptance, Blizzard is going to do whatever they are going to do to get the most copies of HOTS sold, regardless of the thousands of people spamming the boards about how to fix SC2, telling them things they already know. Unless you actually think that Destiny's points are new and revolutionary; things that blizzard hasn't thought of. In that case, I think you underestimate the people who are working on the game. so yes, let's say 85% of SC2's success lies with Blizzard. What have you or destiny done to improve that 85% of the formula? There's 15% that we can work with, might as well do our best with that 15%.
I agree with alot of your points. Remember though, blizzard is about selling the most copies of their game, not developing sc2 esports to the fullest. Sure they will help take a part in it, but I can't foresee them ever supporting their game like riot supports LoL.
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On October 29 2012 13:18 EtohEtoh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 12:32 BlueBoxSC wrote:On October 29 2012 12:29 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On October 29 2012 12:24 my0s wrote:On October 29 2012 12:00 LuckoftheIrish wrote: The problem is that his answer is "Blizzard and only Blizzard." But that's not the case. No, thats pretty much the only answer. There are things the community can do that help, but that might be a combined 10-15% of the big picture. The other 85% rests with Blizzard, and the fact that every other major esport title company right now puts more effort into promoting and supporting their game on a weekly basis then Blizzard has since sc2 was released. There are two ways to look at that. The Destiny way is "the community can only do 15%, it's hopeless." The other way is that there are things we can do to make things better. It might not be much, but we aren't completely powerless to affect the course of our game. We can change things for the better. Things aren't hopeless, far from it, so let's start doing what we can. Agreed, but I think we can optimistically approach the game like your latter clause suggests, but I think we can't ignore the 85% monopoly of control Blizzard has over the game as well. =/ It's not ignoring, It's accepting, accepting that Blizzard isn't going to alter their plans because the community is calling the death of SC2. You do realize how long people have been calling for LAN right? LAN is not going to benefit Blizzard financially, they will not implement it, no matter how much outcry. But you know what does benefit blizzard financially? Selling copies of HOTS. That means expanding the audience of SC2. Blizzard might not listen to us, but they aren't stupid. It's not like they look at Riot and are thinking "gee, LoL sure is making a lot of money, let's ignore everything about their success completely". Blizzard are going to do what they are going to do, all the complaints from the last few weeks are OLD, old as fuck. Blizzard has already heard them, and probably weighed the pros and cons, and will be implemented in HOTS if Blizzard thinks it will expand the audience of SC2. Everything Destiny said is oooooolllllllllddddddddddd, and i'm sure that Blizzard knows about them, there are just things that can't be implemented until you ship a new product. Idra and Incontrol's arguement is acceptance, Blizzard is going to do whatever they are going to do to get the most copies of HOTS sold, regardless of the thousands of people spamming the boards about how to fix SC2, telling them things they already know. Unless you actually think that Destiny's points are new and revolutionary; things that blizzard hasn't thought of. In that case, I think you underestimate the people who are working on the game. so yes, let's say 85% of SC2's success lies with Blizzard. What have you or destiny done to improve that 85% of the formula? There's 15% that we can work with, might as well do our best with that 15%.
What should we do as 15%? All I hear is we as a community have to help sc2. What exactly it involves? we all go watch tournaments, pretend that we are happy? Skyrocket viewership, so that more sponsors came and paid to the likes of IdrA and Incontrol. while we are faking our pleasure with the scene. And we all buy HoTS, jump into battle.net, so that Blizzard could get their profit while doing nothing at all?
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On October 29 2012 13:46 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 13:18 EtohEtoh wrote:On October 29 2012 12:32 BlueBoxSC wrote:On October 29 2012 12:29 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On October 29 2012 12:24 my0s wrote:On October 29 2012 12:00 LuckoftheIrish wrote: The problem is that his answer is "Blizzard and only Blizzard." But that's not the case. No, thats pretty much the only answer. There are things the community can do that help, but that might be a combined 10-15% of the big picture. The other 85% rests with Blizzard, and the fact that every other major esport title company right now puts more effort into promoting and supporting their game on a weekly basis then Blizzard has since sc2 was released. There are two ways to look at that. The Destiny way is "the community can only do 15%, it's hopeless." The other way is that there are things we can do to make things better. It might not be much, but we aren't completely powerless to affect the course of our game. We can change things for the better. Things aren't hopeless, far from it, so let's start doing what we can. Agreed, but I think we can optimistically approach the game like your latter clause suggests, but I think we can't ignore the 85% monopoly of control Blizzard has over the game as well. =/ It's not ignoring, It's accepting, accepting that Blizzard isn't going to alter their plans because the community is calling the death of SC2. You do realize how long people have been calling for LAN right? LAN is not going to benefit Blizzard financially, they will not implement it, no matter how much outcry. But you know what does benefit blizzard financially? Selling copies of HOTS. That means expanding the audience of SC2. Blizzard might not listen to us, but they aren't stupid. It's not like they look at Riot and are thinking "gee, LoL sure is making a lot of money, let's ignore everything about their success completely". Blizzard are going to do what they are going to do, all the complaints from the last few weeks are OLD, old as fuck. Blizzard has already heard them, and probably weighed the pros and cons, and will be implemented in HOTS if Blizzard thinks it will expand the audience of SC2. Everything Destiny said is oooooolllllllllddddddddddd, and i'm sure that Blizzard knows about them, there are just things that can't be implemented until you ship a new product. Idra and Incontrol's arguement is acceptance, Blizzard is going to do whatever they are going to do to get the most copies of HOTS sold, regardless of the thousands of people spamming the boards about how to fix SC2, telling them things they already know. Unless you actually think that Destiny's points are new and revolutionary; things that blizzard hasn't thought of. In that case, I think you underestimate the people who are working on the game. so yes, let's say 85% of SC2's success lies with Blizzard. What have you or destiny done to improve that 85% of the formula? There's 15% that we can work with, might as well do our best with that 15%. What should we do as 15%? All I hear is we as a community have to help sc2. What exactly it involves? we all go watch tournaments, pretend that we are happy? Skyrocket viewership, so that more sponsors came and paid to the likes of IdrA and Incontrol. while we are faking our pleasure with the scene. And we all buy HoTS, jump into battle.net, so that Blizzard could get their profit while doing nothing at all?
I got my two younger brothers addicted, my girlfriend now knows plenty about the professional scene (and she can play the game too), and a bunch of my non-SC2 friends are now educated on the topic of e-sports because I talk about it so much. My mom occasionally comes into my room and hits my GG button and yells "GG! Day[9]!" When I was on vacation across the country, I saw someone wearing a TL shirt and I walked up to him and started talking to him.
You're not trying hard enough.
And, for the record, I did it all because I love the game and the scene. Not because I'm worried about outdoing Blizzard (although of course they should be doing their part too).
Just spread the love, man  As you would with anything else.
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On October 29 2012 13:46 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 13:18 EtohEtoh wrote:On October 29 2012 12:32 BlueBoxSC wrote:On October 29 2012 12:29 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On October 29 2012 12:24 my0s wrote:On October 29 2012 12:00 LuckoftheIrish wrote: The problem is that his answer is "Blizzard and only Blizzard." But that's not the case. No, thats pretty much the only answer. There are things the community can do that help, but that might be a combined 10-15% of the big picture. The other 85% rests with Blizzard, and the fact that every other major esport title company right now puts more effort into promoting and supporting their game on a weekly basis then Blizzard has since sc2 was released. There are two ways to look at that. The Destiny way is "the community can only do 15%, it's hopeless." The other way is that there are things we can do to make things better. It might not be much, but we aren't completely powerless to affect the course of our game. We can change things for the better. Things aren't hopeless, far from it, so let's start doing what we can. Agreed, but I think we can optimistically approach the game like your latter clause suggests, but I think we can't ignore the 85% monopoly of control Blizzard has over the game as well. =/ It's not ignoring, It's accepting, accepting that Blizzard isn't going to alter their plans because the community is calling the death of SC2. You do realize how long people have been calling for LAN right? LAN is not going to benefit Blizzard financially, they will not implement it, no matter how much outcry. But you know what does benefit blizzard financially? Selling copies of HOTS. That means expanding the audience of SC2. Blizzard might not listen to us, but they aren't stupid. It's not like they look at Riot and are thinking "gee, LoL sure is making a lot of money, let's ignore everything about their success completely". Blizzard are going to do what they are going to do, all the complaints from the last few weeks are OLD, old as fuck. Blizzard has already heard them, and probably weighed the pros and cons, and will be implemented in HOTS if Blizzard thinks it will expand the audience of SC2. Everything Destiny said is oooooolllllllllddddddddddd, and i'm sure that Blizzard knows about them, there are just things that can't be implemented until you ship a new product. Idra and Incontrol's arguement is acceptance, Blizzard is going to do whatever they are going to do to get the most copies of HOTS sold, regardless of the thousands of people spamming the boards about how to fix SC2, telling them things they already know. Unless you actually think that Destiny's points are new and revolutionary; things that blizzard hasn't thought of. In that case, I think you underestimate the people who are working on the game. so yes, let's say 85% of SC2's success lies with Blizzard. What have you or destiny done to improve that 85% of the formula? There's 15% that we can work with, might as well do our best with that 15%. What should we do as 15%? All I hear is we as a community have to help sc2. What exactly it involves? we all go watch tournaments, pretend that we are happy? Skyrocket viewership, so that more sponsors came and paid to the likes of IdrA and Incontrol. while we are faking our pleasure with the scene. And we all buy HoTS, jump into battle.net, so that Blizzard could get their profit while doing nothing at all?
Why buy HOTS if blizzard hasn't satisfied you as a consumer? It's simple economics isn't it. Just don't buy HOTS if Blizzard has made a shit product. Blizzard wants money, so they won't make a shit product, because if they do, people won't buy it.
I have never said I endorsed blizzard, I'm just saying the complaining is not beneficial.
the 15% can be many things, outside of "faking it". On idra's part, he said the players could provide better content, streams, games. More on the organizer side, improving the quality of the tournaments. The same principles apply here, a better tournament will get more viewers, hence more money for the organizers. A better stream will get many views as well.
If you enjoyed a tournament or stream, you can tell your friends, so they can enjoy it too.
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Why buy HOTS if blizzard hasn't satisfied you as a consumer?
I'm not going to, although a year ago I was so excited for it to come out. 
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The fact that StarCraft 2 is not any longer the most popular game in e-sports does not mean that e-sports is dying, nor does it mean that StarCraft 2 is dying.
The shift here, is that people like Destiny need to realize that it's ok for StarCraft, for RTS fans, for this thing, that SC2 is no longer the leader. It's a bit disappointing, sure, but it's sort of like arguing that the tablet computer industry is fucked because Nokia internet tablets are no longer the leader. That Nokia is doomed as a company in the next 2 years. Neither of these is true. E-sports is on a GIGANTIC up trend. Starcraft 2 is not the leader any more, but they were a major contributor, and heart of the swarm will bring in new interest. Starcraft, and people who legitimately love Starcraft, and love professional play, will do fine.
Starcraft has ALWAYS been a niche market, and now we'll continue to be. Sure, it was nice before we got to be synonyms with the niche market of e-sports, but e-sports is not a niche market anymore, so we've lost that. But that's still fine, it's changed little or nothing for us, aside from that now we're competing with other massive players for e-sports dollars as opposed to being able to assume that we're the big fish in the pond.
StarCraft 2 may be shrinking, but it's not dying. A new big fish cannot eat our whole population overnight. We'll find ways to defend ourselves and continue to be strong, and there will still be 2 major patches to the game that give us the opportunity to carve out our mark all the more. What I'm saying is, perhaps the concerns are valid, but the fear mongering and doom saying is not.
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In 2007 when Activision purchased Blizzard Entertainment, they weren’t purchasing the company, but the titles of the games Blizzard Entertainment made in the past. Nobody cared about Blizzard Entertainment, they only cared about the games the company developed. Activision bought Starcraft, Diablo, World of Warcraft, and Warcraft. They had nothing to do with the creation of these monsters. While most of us didn’t like all of these games, all of us liked at least one or two of them. Activision had and has only one goal in mind, to make millions off what Blizzard developed in the past. Their goal to produce a game as cheap as possible, sell it as a sequel to a game that was created by people who actually knew how to create a great game, then keep the game as relevant as possible to increase the sales of their expansion, rather than invest the time and money to create a great game.
Activision developed expansions to WoW based off what Blizzard created; they only added to a game that already existed, they didn’t create anything impressive. They then created Starcraft 2 cutting out several vital online features such as solid chat channels, solid custom game creation and search, multiplayer replays. They also created a half-assed campaign which only goes through one race, even though the storyline is decent. After that Diablo III game out with no end game, PvP, and it was missing things that were important to the players in Diablo II such as charms, runewords, and unique areas.
All of these incomplete games were sold as the sequel to a game that was awesome. The Blizzard games of the past were still being played a decade past their release. All of a sudden while you’re playing your BroodWar, WoW, Diablo II LOD, the next game of the series is about to come out, they know you’re bound to pick it up. Their whole sales strategy is to sell an Activision game based off what Blizzard did in the past.
Activision is now keeping their games in your mind by promising better and new stuff to come in an expansion or in a patch. They want you hooked, so they can sell you their next incomplete product. Even the WCS is just a scam to keep your eyes focused on the pro scene until HOTS comes out. Their minimal investment into the tournament scene is a direct investment into sales for the expansion, when really the quality of the first game should be the reason you buy the next game.
Do what you want for HOTS, but I won’t be rushing to the store for it, because COD, Assassins Creed, and a boatload of other games, that I know will live up to their names will be releasing soon. I will be playing them and waiting the next Blizzard to sweep the north.
On a side note: When you guys keep comparing SC2 to LoL directly you’re missing a valid point. SC2 is in fact more popular than BroodWar in the foreign scene. I doubt any OSL or MSL finals got as many views as the GSL borefest did last season. Now, that the KESPA players are coming over, it will be even more popular than BW was because there won’t be another RTS taking its place anytime soon and where else are the Koreans going to get their fill of JD, Flash, and Bisu? And just because LoL is more popular doesn’t mean Starcraft is less popular than it once was, just that it isn’t on top anymore. Also the whole Blizzard is the key, it is true, if people don’t play the game they’re not going to watch it, but Blizzard is now Activision-Blizzard, and they’re not going to make a game people want to buy, play, and continue to play.
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On October 29 2012 13:59 EtohEtoh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 13:46 bokeevboke wrote:On October 29 2012 13:18 EtohEtoh wrote:On October 29 2012 12:32 BlueBoxSC wrote:On October 29 2012 12:29 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On October 29 2012 12:24 my0s wrote:On October 29 2012 12:00 LuckoftheIrish wrote: The problem is that his answer is "Blizzard and only Blizzard." But that's not the case. No, thats pretty much the only answer. There are things the community can do that help, but that might be a combined 10-15% of the big picture. The other 85% rests with Blizzard, and the fact that every other major esport title company right now puts more effort into promoting and supporting their game on a weekly basis then Blizzard has since sc2 was released. There are two ways to look at that. The Destiny way is "the community can only do 15%, it's hopeless." The other way is that there are things we can do to make things better. It might not be much, but we aren't completely powerless to affect the course of our game. We can change things for the better. Things aren't hopeless, far from it, so let's start doing what we can. Agreed, but I think we can optimistically approach the game like your latter clause suggests, but I think we can't ignore the 85% monopoly of control Blizzard has over the game as well. =/ It's not ignoring, It's accepting, accepting that Blizzard isn't going to alter their plans because the community is calling the death of SC2. You do realize how long people have been calling for LAN right? LAN is not going to benefit Blizzard financially, they will not implement it, no matter how much outcry. But you know what does benefit blizzard financially? Selling copies of HOTS. That means expanding the audience of SC2. Blizzard might not listen to us, but they aren't stupid. It's not like they look at Riot and are thinking "gee, LoL sure is making a lot of money, let's ignore everything about their success completely". Blizzard are going to do what they are going to do, all the complaints from the last few weeks are OLD, old as fuck. Blizzard has already heard them, and probably weighed the pros and cons, and will be implemented in HOTS if Blizzard thinks it will expand the audience of SC2. Everything Destiny said is oooooolllllllllddddddddddd, and i'm sure that Blizzard knows about them, there are just things that can't be implemented until you ship a new product. Idra and Incontrol's arguement is acceptance, Blizzard is going to do whatever they are going to do to get the most copies of HOTS sold, regardless of the thousands of people spamming the boards about how to fix SC2, telling them things they already know. Unless you actually think that Destiny's points are new and revolutionary; things that blizzard hasn't thought of. In that case, I think you underestimate the people who are working on the game. so yes, let's say 85% of SC2's success lies with Blizzard. What have you or destiny done to improve that 85% of the formula? There's 15% that we can work with, might as well do our best with that 15%. What should we do as 15%? All I hear is we as a community have to help sc2. What exactly it involves? we all go watch tournaments, pretend that we are happy? Skyrocket viewership, so that more sponsors came and paid to the likes of IdrA and Incontrol. while we are faking our pleasure with the scene. And we all buy HoTS, jump into battle.net, so that Blizzard could get their profit while doing nothing at all? On idra's part, he said the players could provide better content, streams, games. More on the organizer side, improving the quality of the tournaments. The same principles apply here, a better tournament will get more viewers, hence more money for the organizers. A better stream will get many views as well.
isn't it what we were doing last 2,5 years, helping the scene.
did it worked? I don't know man. Maybe its still alive. Maybe there are still things that could be enjoyed, maybe there are still figures to be admired with. But I don't feel it, and many people are unhappy too. You know why? Because we were stupid and silent these years, blizzard kept things the way they are. maybe thats why they cut short sc2 staff.
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On October 29 2012 09:11 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 02:05 Doodsmack wrote:
Probably a lot of them are BW elitists too, yes the 5 remaining BW elitists on TL have hijacked the thread for the past 80 pages.
I am legion, for we are many!
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On October 29 2012 14:32 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 13:59 EtohEtoh wrote:On October 29 2012 13:46 bokeevboke wrote:On October 29 2012 13:18 EtohEtoh wrote:On October 29 2012 12:32 BlueBoxSC wrote:On October 29 2012 12:29 LuckoftheIrish wrote:On October 29 2012 12:24 my0s wrote:On October 29 2012 12:00 LuckoftheIrish wrote: The problem is that his answer is "Blizzard and only Blizzard." But that's not the case. No, thats pretty much the only answer. There are things the community can do that help, but that might be a combined 10-15% of the big picture. The other 85% rests with Blizzard, and the fact that every other major esport title company right now puts more effort into promoting and supporting their game on a weekly basis then Blizzard has since sc2 was released. There are two ways to look at that. The Destiny way is "the community can only do 15%, it's hopeless." The other way is that there are things we can do to make things better. It might not be much, but we aren't completely powerless to affect the course of our game. We can change things for the better. Things aren't hopeless, far from it, so let's start doing what we can. Agreed, but I think we can optimistically approach the game like your latter clause suggests, but I think we can't ignore the 85% monopoly of control Blizzard has over the game as well. =/ It's not ignoring, It's accepting, accepting that Blizzard isn't going to alter their plans because the community is calling the death of SC2. You do realize how long people have been calling for LAN right? LAN is not going to benefit Blizzard financially, they will not implement it, no matter how much outcry. But you know what does benefit blizzard financially? Selling copies of HOTS. That means expanding the audience of SC2. Blizzard might not listen to us, but they aren't stupid. It's not like they look at Riot and are thinking "gee, LoL sure is making a lot of money, let's ignore everything about their success completely". Blizzard are going to do what they are going to do, all the complaints from the last few weeks are OLD, old as fuck. Blizzard has already heard them, and probably weighed the pros and cons, and will be implemented in HOTS if Blizzard thinks it will expand the audience of SC2. Everything Destiny said is oooooolllllllllddddddddddd, and i'm sure that Blizzard knows about them, there are just things that can't be implemented until you ship a new product. Idra and Incontrol's arguement is acceptance, Blizzard is going to do whatever they are going to do to get the most copies of HOTS sold, regardless of the thousands of people spamming the boards about how to fix SC2, telling them things they already know. Unless you actually think that Destiny's points are new and revolutionary; things that blizzard hasn't thought of. In that case, I think you underestimate the people who are working on the game. so yes, let's say 85% of SC2's success lies with Blizzard. What have you or destiny done to improve that 85% of the formula? There's 15% that we can work with, might as well do our best with that 15%. What should we do as 15%? All I hear is we as a community have to help sc2. What exactly it involves? we all go watch tournaments, pretend that we are happy? Skyrocket viewership, so that more sponsors came and paid to the likes of IdrA and Incontrol. while we are faking our pleasure with the scene. And we all buy HoTS, jump into battle.net, so that Blizzard could get their profit while doing nothing at all? On idra's part, he said the players could provide better content, streams, games. More on the organizer side, improving the quality of the tournaments. The same principles apply here, a better tournament will get more viewers, hence more money for the organizers. A better stream will get many views as well. isn't it what we were doing last 2,5 years, helping the scene. did it worked? I don't know man. Maybe its still alive. Maybe there are still things that could be enjoyed, maybe there are still figures to be admired with. But I don't feel it, and many people are unhappy too. You know why? Because we were stupid and silent these years, blizzard kept things the way they are. maybe thats why they cut short sc2 staff.
Could possibly be that the efforts over the 2.5 helped also lead to it's struggles. Starcraft and streaming grew faster than I would say most people could have expected. Perhaps what we're seeing now is that after two years of 24/7 streams, tournaments every other weekend, almost infinite amounts of VoDs, people have over-consumed sc2.
I guess that's what i feel like. I'll turn on streams to support people and not watch. I don't feel excited anymore when there's a big tournament coming up. I still play, but much less than before. I can't wait for HotS for the campaign, but not much for the multiplayer ( I have the beta and haven't even installed yet). Sc2 felt to me more accessible than any other form of entertainment, but now it feels like it's accessibility has stagnated its growth.
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Did that guy just say he won't be gettIng HoTS because he's getting CoD? Wtfffffffffff my brain is filled with fuck.
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On October 29 2012 15:04 matiK23 wrote:
Did that guy just say he won't be gettIng HoTS because he's getting CoD? Wtfffffffffff my brain is filled with fuck.
Hahahaha, funniest post in this thread so far.
But on a serious note, I also had been looking forward to HotS, but will most likely not be purchasing it now.
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I don't like this "Accepting" argument that people are using. It's the argument that inControl/idra/some forums users are using, but why should we accept? Sure Blizzard haven't listened by the last 2 years, but it doesn't hurt to keep nagging them, otherwise we give Blizzard the freedom to do as they wish and the only thing that will happen is the degeneration of this game.
People are saying "It wasn't an issue until Destiny said something" but why should you nail Destiny's coffin just because he is saying something that would be productive for this game? It sickens me how a major contributor to this game and ESports in general gets shot down for voicing his opinion, and yes, I agree with most of it. If you disagree that's fine, but it seems people are disagreeing with the wrong thing.
You should be disagreeing with Destiny about the fact the game shouldn't be casualized, you shouldn't be arguing about the fact the Community is making a big deal about it... Because we should be! Fight against Destiny's argument, don't fight against his ability to speak out his opinion.
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On October 29 2012 15:04 matiK23 wrote:
Did that guy just say he won't be gettIng HoTS because he's getting CoD? Wtfffffffffff my brain is filled with fuck.
You missed the entire point, but with how well you wrote your response I can understand why, so I will simplify it. Call Of Duty is the same game every time no better no worse. The Activision-Blizzard games are always worse than the Blizzard titles. Now, if you're laughing at the fact that both games are in fact published by Activision, Trearch and IW seem to develop a similar quality game every time because Activision doesn't own them, they only publish them. I am not saying that COD takes more skill or is better, just that I know what I am getting when I open the package.
On October 29 2012 15:11 blug wrote:
I don't like this "Accepting" argument that people are using. It's the argument that inControl/idra/some forums users are using, but why should we accept? Sure Blizzard haven't listened by the last 2 years, but it doesn't hurt to keep nagging them, otherwise we give Blizzard the freedom to do as they wish and the only thing that will happen is the degeneration of this game.
People are saying "It wasn't an issue until Destiny said something" but why should you nail Destiny's coffin just because he is saying something that would be productive for this game? It sickens me how a major contributor to this game and ESports in general gets shot down for voicing his opinion, and yes, I agree with most of it. If you disagree that's fine, but it seems people are disagreeing with the wrong thing.
You should be disagreeing with Destiny about the fact the game shouldn't be casualized, you shouldn't be arguing about the fact the Community is making a big deal about it... Because we should be! Fight against Destiny's argument, don't fight against his ability to speak out his opinion.
Nagging them will not solve anything. They already have your $60. Your nagging might make them bump up the release date of HOTS, which by chance will have the features you want. Then you will have paid $100 for your copy of SC2 which by the way, still isn't complete, you have to wait 2 more years for that. He is right, but you need to remember they really don't give a shit, they're only trying to sell copies, not appease you now. Releasing anything that might make you buy an expansion, before that expansion releases wouldn't be good for their business model.
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On October 29 2012 16:17 NoobSkills wrote:Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 15:04 matiK23 wrote:
Did that guy just say he won't be gettIng HoTS because he's getting CoD? Wtfffffffffff my brain is filled with fuck. You missed the entire point, but with how well you wrote your response I can understand why, so I will simplify it. Call Of Duty is the same game every time no better no worse. The Activision-Blizzard games are always worse than the Blizzard titles. Now, if you're laughing at the fact that both games are in fact published by Activision, Trearch and IW seem to develop a similar quality game every time because Activision doesn't own them, they only publish them. I am not saying that COD takes more skill or is better, just that I know what I am getting when I open the package. Show nested quote +On October 29 2012 15:11 blug wrote:
I don't like this "Accepting" argument that people are using. It's the argument that inControl/idra/some forums users are using, but why should we accept? Sure Blizzard haven't listened by the last 2 years, but it doesn't hurt to keep nagging them, otherwise we give Blizzard the freedom to do as they wish and the only thing that will happen is the degeneration of this game.
People are saying "It wasn't an issue until Destiny said something" but why should you nail Destiny's coffin just because he is saying something that would be productive for this game? It sickens me how a major contributor to this game and ESports in general gets shot down for voicing his opinion, and yes, I agree with most of it. If you disagree that's fine, but it seems people are disagreeing with the wrong thing.
You should be disagreeing with Destiny about the fact the game shouldn't be casualized, you shouldn't be arguing about the fact the Community is making a big deal about it... Because we should be! Fight against Destiny's argument, don't fight against his ability to speak out his opinion. Nagging them will not solve anything. They already have your $60. Your nagging might make them bump up the release date of HOTS, which by chance will have the features you want. Then you will have paid $100 for your copy of SC2 which by the way, still isn't complete, you have to wait 2 more years for that. He is right, but you need to remember they really don't give a shit, they're only trying to sell copies, not appease you now. Releasing anything that might make you buy an expansion, before that expansion releases wouldn't be good for their business model.
You seem to forget that Blizzard are releasing a game pretty soon which they haven't got money for yet? When releasing a new game, they want people to buy copies... and people who most likely won't buy copies are people who are currently playing other games. However, maybe those other people might give sc2 a second chance if more features are implemented. Who else is better to listen to other than the community itself for suggestions?
Blizzard do listen, I used to play WoW, and in fact, they listened to the extent where they changed WoW into something I disliked (I do accept overall it's not a bad thing because they are catering to the majority).
Have you actually noticed that Blizzard have been listening a lot more lately? Forum posts have been made on the Blizzard site and Blizzard have been implementing people's ideas.
You also don't seem to understand the financial potential of ESports in general as well, they have more money to earn from you than that 60 dollars...
All that aside, it might not make a huge difference, but it doesn't hurt.
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What I'm missing here is not just a comparison with other games like LoL but well its called eSports so i would compare it to something like soccer so "real" sports-games.
Real soccer teams put a lot of work into training kids for example. They have teams at a lot of age-ranges.
So I guess what I'm saying is I'm missing a Team Liquid-noob-squad. I guess the idea is about as old as Starcraft and if blizzard has not yet implemented clan support they never will, who knows why but nonetheless if I would have a chance at least to also fight for liquid that would not only be a great motivation for a lot of people and something much closer to myself than just the next mlg where well, its really nice to watch, but its kind of very far away.
We all know that the pros dont have time to train us noobs und stuff but that does not mean that we all dont have like our favorite teams and would really really love to also do our part to bring glory to Liquid and not just watch others do that.
In the end, what destiny says is also quite true. While in real sports, everyone has played soccer, baseball or something so we kind of know what it "feels" like. But the one point where eSports really is much much more interessting than real sports is the simple fact that at least theoretically I could participate. While of course non of us (or at least very few ) will ever participate in a real great sports event, eSports makes this possible. Why not just add some kind of noob-squads Bronce to Gold and the like to the teams and team-fights.
Although the games played would be much more well "bad" than what we may be used to by just watching pro streams and tournaments they would also be closer to our own game but still linked to the teams we all know and love.
I know that there are many small teams out there but well i cant identify with those. I love watching sheth and TLO play, love watching their streams (well, except tlo is playing his strange music again^^) so thats who I'm rooting for thats who i want to support and well thats the team people want to be a part of, even it would just be some kind on noob-division
Well, just my 2 cents on the matter.
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Listing to InControl and Idra tear shreds into Destiny just made my day.
He has valid points, but you just cant take him seriously.
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On October 29 2012 16:47 wOod LeaGue wrote:
Listing to InControl and Idra tear shreds into Destiny just made my day.
He has valid points, but you just cant take him seriously.
I thought their behaviour was embarrassing, and Wheat was even worse. For people who go on and on about being professional you'd think they'd look once or twice at their own behaviour. The only person who looked semi-credible there was Painuser. Wheat was appalling.
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EPT
