EPTDestiny on where he thinks SC2 is heading. - Page 35
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Jarven
Sweden16 Posts
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Black[CAT]
Malaysia2589 Posts
Like wtf, months old outdated news and weird button placements. The social aspect of the game, which is important, is the smallest icons. Why can't just make chat channels the way like in BW/WC3, you log in and you will be in one instead of some small window at the bottom. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/G1dGA.png) Waste of potential space. | ||
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Hammer442
Australia749 Posts
On October 17 2012 23:40 wcr.4fun wrote: The custom maps and games of SC2 are shit ass boring. If you've ever played wc3 (or bw) you should know how many fun games it had... I never played WC3, so didn't try the custom maps there and have very limited knowledge of the custom games in sc2 because i just don't hear much about them so i don't try any. Why is it though that noone has been able to make really good maps in the Sc2 engine, all the tools are there right? Sorry for my ignorance on the matter, i just don't understand how people couldn't just copy the popular maps from other games at the least. | ||
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REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1903 Posts
There are also a lot of people though, who watched bw and never even played it. For those people I think it is most important first of that the game looks good and sadly SC2 looks worse then BW. Whereas you had epic battles the size of 3 screens in BW everything is clumped up in SC2, it looks like a school of fish or birds, which might be okay for a bunch of zerglings but for tanks or marines it just looks absolutely horrible. It also makes it a lot harder to judge how big an army is. Add to that some effects like Stimpack where there is an indication on top of every single marine you see even less. Then there are even some tournaments which have healthbars on at all times and it ends up looking like total trash where if your eyes aren't trained to look at that stuff from playing countless hours, you won't see a single thing and it looks like fighting healthbars. That's the most obvious flaw but there are countless more that make SC2 way worse as a spectator sport for people who don't play the game. Why remove high ground advantage? It's the most basic strategic thing that everyone can appreciate and understand even if they never touched the game... Now some complaint about the broadcasters. From personally speaking with korean girls(korean girls made up a hugh part of BW fans) a lot of them said girls watch it simply because some of the players look quite handsome and some eventually catch it often enough on TV to start appreciating and understanding it even without having played it. Personally I think the camera work in most SC2 tournaments is quite bad. There need to be way more shots of player faces in key moments of the game to see their devastation after losing an army or see a smirk after doing some cute micro, so people can relate whats going on in the game to the person behind it. I think this aspect, reaching people who don't even play the game, is something often overlooked. Many of us for example like watching MMA but how many really tried it out themselves? I guess only a small fraction of the viewers. | ||
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Leonnoel
France17 Posts
BW is THE esport (based on OP) because it gathered koreans, it also gathered casual gamers who played BGH Dota2 and LOL are THE new esport because they get supported by Valve and Riot and because they gather casual gamers So first lets see about comparing BW and SC2. SC2 failure, according to OP, is that you can't chat with your friends, you can't "easily" join a 2V2V2 BGH game and because korea didn't catch on like they did of BW. 1) You can't chat with your friends - sorry but today, you want to chat with your friend, you use skype... I got to play LoL quite a bit, i don't ever chat in LoL but I understand from your post that its a great casual game and I agree, but not because i get to chat with people.... 2)You can't easily join a 2V2V2 BGH game - my casual friends like to play team games, like to play some custom maps and still get on SC2 from time to time (even after WoW mist of panda is out). A very smal minority have any interest in competitive SC2 and that has NOTHING to do with the type of games SC2 provides but just because they are impressed or have a small interest in the game itself (cause to be honest, there is no relevance at all between 2V2V2 BGH and a Flash vs Jaedong game). This is pure nostalgia 3) So Korea didn't catch on with SC2. That is clearly because SC2 is not a good game. It can't be because at the time BW was out there was NO competition on popular games. It can't be because of this absence of competition, the game had a great success in emerging PC bang and that due to this success koreans got to LOVE the game up to the point of making it a possibility to gather an audience around it. After that, koreans were very good at building from a standard RTS game with VERY High skill ceiling a good entertainment but I tried getting some casual friends to watch some games, apart from the impressive APM, they didn't understand how looking at Nal-Ra vs Savior could be the best entertainment I have ever enjoyed over Internet. While I agree the entertainment value of SC2 is less then BW (you still get some very entertaining games in SC2 but you also get some very "boring" games and the "OMG !" factor is much less in SC2 then in BW or even War3 for that matter) this is not the reason why SC2 is not sucessfull in esport. RTS is not ready to be successfull in esport. (at least not to the high expectation the OP "pro" status would like it to be) Now that this is out of the picture, why compare SC2 with Dota2 and LOL ? The games are totally different, the entertainment is totally different. The only thing which brings value to the comparison is my personal opinion that watching a MOBA pro game is quite boring while watching a SC2 game is both interesting and can be entertaining. But I'm no "casual" even if as mid master I still find macro in SC2 as a challenge and i'm impressed by pro's ability to macro in this game. The OP states that LoL is very casual friendly which explains why it gathers a great audience. I'm unsure of that. Its true that LoL is casual friendly, as is Dota 2. You get to have ONE hero, you get to have from 3 to 8 abilities and that's it. It is very easy to start playing. Of course you'll need experience to understand how the game really works but even that is not that complex. But the real question is why do casual want to look at a pro MOBA game ? What's the entertaining part ? Is it because its impressive ? Is it because its non stop action ? Is it because there are dramatic moments such as incredible come backs ? Is it because its just pro playing the same game they usually play ? If its the latter, then SC2 canno't be compared to LoL or Dota 2 because its just a different type of game and casual don't like RTS. | ||
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mikedebo
Canada4341 Posts
On October 17 2012 23:43 Black[CAT] wrote: When I log in the game, I'm greeted with a pathetic menu. Like wtf, months old outdated news and weird button placements. The social aspect of the game, which is important, is the smallest icons. Why can't just make chat channels the way like in BW/WC3, you log in and you will be in one instead of some small window at the bottom. Waste of potential space. OMFG I just spat water all over my screen LOOOLLLL | ||
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Knutzi
Norway664 Posts
the wc3 tft and sc:bw expansions both completely changed the games but hots seems to be the exact same boring stuff and i doubt it can save it unless they do something big | ||
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Excalibur
United States58 Posts
On October 17 2012 23:44 Hammer442 wrote:I never played WC3, so didn't try the custom maps there and have very limited knowledge of the custom games in sc2 because i just don't hear much about them so i don't try any. Why is it though that noone has been able to make really good maps in the Sc2 engine, all the tools are there right? Sorry for my ignorance on the matter, i just don't understand how people couldn't just copy the popular maps from other games at the least. Because of the SC2 editor, it is a complete piece of shit and even minds as brilliant as IskatuMesk, one of the greatest names in BW modding, couldn't stomach dealing with it. SEN was waiting patiently for the day we could start making SC2 maps, the game came out, and we got a shit editor that was overcomplicated, buggy, and near impossible to use. | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
On October 17 2012 23:15 RoarMan wrote: Best thread on Team Liquid. So. Far. To. Date. Thank you. there have been many posters and threads saying the exact same thing since sc2's original beta was launched. its more like some in the community had nothing but blind faith in blizzard and would ostracize any naysayers. you know, those "FUCK YOU this is SC2 not BW"/"are YOU a game developer?!" people. now that we're two years down the road, and the game has become incredibly stale and stagnated, and they are not impressed by HOTS, you're seeing what is essentially a mass exodus from the scene from both players and viewers alike. | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
On October 17 2012 23:44 Hammer442 wrote: I never played WC3, so didn't try the custom maps there and have very limited knowledge of the custom games in sc2 because i just don't hear much about them so i don't try any. Why is it though that noone has been able to make really good maps in the Sc2 engine, all the tools are there right? Sorry for my ignorance on the matter, i just don't understand how people couldn't just copy the popular maps from other games at the least. The SC2 editor is total shit | ||
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Goldfish
2230 Posts
On October 17 2012 14:15 andeh wrote: I've been thinking this as well, hots beta has been a real clusterfuck of pseudo bw units. Watching the international (dota2) made me really really consider of sc2 being a bubble. I personally really hope that valve or riot creates an rts, because they really seem to be into developing their competitive titles. While Blizzard could help SC2 better, I think the RTS genre is kind of dead in general. Dota and LoL succeeds so well because: 1. It's a (single) team game. Like FPS, in Dota or LoL you just worry about your one unit or hero (along with your teammates). It's a more casual game and you can have fun casually. I never really played in Bronze for example but unlike in SC2, you can really have fun and really seem to do stuff in "bronze" in Dota or LoL than in an RTS game. Not sure but back in BW days of me playing BW casually (I was never really a 1v1 in BW as I didn't find it fun at the time, so I saw no point in it if it wasn't fun), I just mass up carriers against comps in BGH all day. "BUT" those were in the old days when there was little competition from other online games. Nowadays you have games like Dota, MMOs which can be really fun and addictive, FPS (still going on tsrong), etc.... Basically RTS genre has a lot more competition now. RTS is more of a competitive type genre and is sort of dying. It's similar to fighting games actually (fighting games are still doing well but they are now no where near as popular as they were before. 2. Variety - The game has a lot of variety. Every game is different. In RTS, the games generally are more similar to one another. While a PvT game (for example) won't be exactly the same each time, in MOBA genre, the games are much different due to the wide variety of heroes. Though this really depends on the person (I personally have only been playing a few heroes in Dota to "pubstomp", I want to get that MMR and win count up). (I personally found Dota to become a bit formulaic with playing to win and doing the same builds over and over but I sadly admit I keep playing because I want to earn items >.>.) 3. Free to play - Both games are free to play. In Dota, with a steam account you can take a hardware survey and get into the beta just in a month (Dota will be F2P when it's released). tl;dr - I'd say it's not exactly SC2 but the RTS genre itself. Real time strategy games have too much competition nowadays (MMOs, FPS, Dota-like games, etc). Plus, a lot of those games are F2P (Dota and LoL for example). Edit - A bit off topic but the closest thing to RTS gameplay (controlling multiple units) in "MOBA" format is you being able to control all 5 heroes at once in Dota 2 or LoL for example. Take note unlike typical RTS, if you controlled everything in MOBA, the game would be the hardest early on (when you have to lane and farm all five heroes at once) and easier later in the game (when you can just group all your heroes and a-move to victory). (In games like SC, it's easiest in the beginning when you don't have as much to worry about but harder later in the game.) Now less team QQ or more you're actually in control of whether you win or lose! (They need to add a 1v1, control all 5 heroes at once, gamemode in Dota2.) | ||
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a176
Canada6688 Posts
On October 17 2012 23:43 Black[CAT] wrote: When I log in the game, I'm greeted with a pathetic menu. Like wtf, months old outdated news and weird button placements. The social aspect of the game, which is important, is the smallest icons. Why can't just make chat channels the way like in BW/WC3, you log in and you will be in one instead of some small window at the bottom. Waste of potential space. full rundown of "arcade" gui: SC2 gui is shit | ||
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plasmidghost
Belgium16168 Posts
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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Randomaccount#77123
United States5003 Posts
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frostalgia
United States178 Posts
On October 17 2012 23:34 enemy2010 wrote: Can anybody tell me the difference between the BW casual games system and the SC2 one? I mean, I played tons of casual games (evolves, TD, fastest maps etc.) in BW. But as long as I remember it was almost the same system like nowadays (SC2). You would click on a game, some other dudes would join the game and there you'd go. 2v2v2v2 was a big part of it, and that's quite absent from SC2. A huge part of the success of UMS in BW was due to the creativity of the custom games, paired with a good lobby system. Also, the Matchmaking system was not nearly as good, so you'd get your ass kicked on Melee games. A big part of the failure of Customs in SC2 is that it was too similar to BW, it didn't evolve like Matchmaking did. There is really no reason to play Customs, you don't earn anything. This is a mistake. Blizzard should strongly consider implementing a Points system (along with F2P) similar to LoL. For example, after each win, you earn around 100 'points', and each loss like 10 points. And in each Custom you play, you earn about 20 points. Then you could spend those points on anything from 10,000-point Portraits/Decals to 500,000-point skins for the Thor or Queen (similar to collectors ed), or even Decorations on certain buildings like Dark Shrine. This would be a huge part of keeping people playing, especially customs. Also would be great to see the in-game Home screen have watchable streams like Dota 2, watchable live games like LoL, or a streamlined Replay-downloading system for Pro replays at least. They don't have to become a MOBA, they just have to stay current with the technology of eSports. Because believe it or not Bnet 2.0, the technology IS there. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19234 Posts
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hmmm...
632 Posts
seeing some folks on this thread just starting to come to their senses about the very flaws of sc2 which "bw elitists" pointed out way before and were consequently labeled as "arrogant" is unfortunate but not surprising... | ||
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MasterOfPuppets
Romania6942 Posts
On October 17 2012 23:44 Hammer442 wrote: I never played WC3, so didn't try the custom maps there and have very limited knowledge of the custom games in sc2 because i just don't hear much about them so i don't try any. Why is it though that noone has been able to make really good maps in the Sc2 engine, all the tools are there right? Sorry for my ignorance on the matter, i just don't understand how people couldn't just copy the popular maps from other games at the least. The engine is indeed extremely versatile and capable of putting out maps even beyond what the War3 editor could. Good maps are most definitely being made, as well as "ports" of other famous custom maps from BW and War3, as well as "ports" of other old games. (like Bomberman) The problem is that the Battle.net 2.0 custom map area has for the longest time been an utter trainwreck where some cookie cutter tower defense / nexus wars game would stay at the top forever and a day while the real gems rotted deep in the underground. Only now has Blizzard started showing the smallest sign of improvement in that regard and I think it's far too little, as well as too late. It's quite sad that they made the engine so customizable for the people who are actually hardcore into modding/game developement and know what they're doing, but then the part of the system designed to provide those custom maps to the players is atrocious. As a map maker, you get almost no exposure whatsoever, wether you do UMS maps or Melee maps. I'm sure far less than half of the viewerbase has any clue who IronManSC or ESV monitor or JackylPrime are. Blizzard refuses to accept superior maps in their map pool and so do most non-GSL tournaments. There's very little interest in mapping and modding because despite the pretty good tool (SC2 engine) with a big associated playerbase as it is, there is barely any way to get your map played by more than a dozen people, let alone getting your name out there. I feel like I've gone off on a tangent here, so I'll also add that while I'm not a fan of Destiny, I think that his thoughts are for the most part spot on. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On October 17 2012 23:50 Barrin wrote: Having all your units die extremely rapidly in battles is probably very stressful to casual players IMO. Indeed, even competitive gamers have a hard time squeezing out the true potential of their units (there's a slew of youtube videos showing AI that can outperform any human by enormous margins in various situations). There is a sort of human limit, and SC2 actually asks for too much too quickly in a way that removes the slow, methodical, strategic feel to battle scenarios. With low durability, units can be quickly picked off which makes it extra punishing to spread them out. A lack of a strong high ground mechanic truly removes the most interesting aspects of a map. Vying for positioning in order to secure/deny expansions/scouting is where the real beauty and skill in RTS games lies, and a strong high ground mechanic [is] a mapmaker's favorite tool for keeping this part of the game fresh and interesting. It can also make a small group of units much stronger than they would be otherwise, potentially promoting a more spread out army and a higher skill cap. When we can mine so many resources so rapidly from each base, we aren't even encouraged to spread out to begin with. With so many resources from each base, the holes are bigger (more delicate and restricted actually) but they are also fewer; this more than anything is what drives the current "inevitable ideal-ish metagame" (lol) of SC2 into being somewhat turtley. Lower income per base/worker might make action less rapid at first, but it will do the opposite as the game goes on. The fact that zerg has no proper tech to deal with cliffs in the midgame the way terran and protoss does (siege tanks, collosus) makes balancing interesting mid-game cliff features extremely restrictive for mapmakers. What I'm getting at here is that it's okay if the races do things in a different way, but they do need to have the option/potential of doing something similar (at least for something as important as cliffs). "Arcade" games actually filled up quickly in BW/WC3 because there was a scrolling list of current active lobbies; creating or joining a lobby put it at the top of the list. This gave plenty of room for mapmakers to create a lobby for their new unheard of map and after 2 or 3 people joined then it would fill up very quickly; innovation and variety in arcade games isn't even close to what it was in the BW/WC3 days because new entrepreneur-type mapmakers can almost never get a full lobby of people to test their game in SC2. And do unit attack speeds really need to be randomized? felt like redditing this post as reply to destiny THIS!!!!! Terrible terrible damage is just so ridiculous from both a casual perspective and a veteran perspective. There's just so much less to appreciate in a player's skill in SC2. Everything is just so.. clumped. We need bigger maps. Weaker units. More high ground advantages. More micro oriented approaches (go suggest the idea of a colossus to an RTS gamer that hasn't played SC and watch them laugh). | ||
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