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On September 27 2012 10:36 Fenrax wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 10:32 NHY wrote:On September 27 2012 10:27 Fenrax wrote:On September 27 2012 10:20 NHY wrote:On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote:
Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain??? eSF didn't get any seeds in OSL, neither did Kespa players. If anything, one can argue that Kespa got 6 seeds because they had separate dual tournament. they got eight players into the RO16 guaranteed. Kespa got two players into the RO32 guaranteed. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_OnGameNet_Starleague_Season_1/Dual_Tournament/Non-KeSPA Why are you overlooking at the fact that Kepa got 6 players into the RO16 guaranteed? There is no direct seed in OSL, unlike GSL. You can't compare them directly. It's more of Kespa getting 6 spots rather than eSF getting 8 spots. Of course you can compare them. Kespa could have easily made the ESF dual tournament give exactly 1 slot for the OSL to match the rate of Kespa players in GSL. Or 2. Or 3. Or 4. But they gave 8! 8 Kespa players in their own tournament RO16 is not a lot. 30 of 32 players in Code S on the other hand is a lot.
OGN runs OSL. Usually it doesn't matter much to whether we use Kespa or OGN but in this case it does.
Anyway. It never was about eSF players getting guaranteed spots; it was about Kespa players getting protection. OGN wants to make OSL an open league in sc2, but decided to protect Kespa players for a season for viewership and what not.
Also, 20 players in code S were in eSF this season, not 30.
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Gotta run errands, can't comment for several hours now.
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On September 27 2012 10:59 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 10:55 SupLilSon wrote:On September 27 2012 10:50 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 27 2012 10:46 SupLilSon wrote:On September 27 2012 10:37 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 27 2012 10:30 SupLilSon wrote:On September 27 2012 10:25 felisconcolori wrote:On September 27 2012 10:24 SupLilSon wrote:On September 27 2012 10:21 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 27 2012 10:17 Sepnova wrote:
[quote]
I never said it was. I'm just saying they deserve it for trying to charge money. watch Lo3. MLG doesn't have a choice. How do they not have a choice? Because Sundance said that or because they actually gave legitimate reasoning? Just asking because Sundance has clearly shown in the past that he has no qualms with hiding or completely fabricating information to suit his stance. MLGLee said on LO3 that an outside entity is making them have it PPV, and that he could not say who due to NDA agreements. But it wasn't KeSPA, and they want to have it free. Ok yea.. sounds like more grade A, concocted MLG bullshit. then why say if it was 2013, this would be free? why lie when they have already ran PPV events? I honestly don't know what you are asking me. The facts are, Sundance repeatedly lied to the public about MLG funding and their initial reasons/pressures for going PPV. He claims that PPV was SO successful that it enabled them to drop PPV model in favor of sponsorships (Mind you they never even released numbers to back any of this up). Now they are going back to PPV because "an outside entity is making them have it PPV" but conveniently they can't mention this "entity" and it's not KeSPA. I don't care if I have everything 1000% wrong, at first sight MLG and Sundance especially just stink to me and I'm not going to hand my money over to him. He didn't claim PPV was so successful. MLG claimed their spring season was so successful that they could drop PPV, and that hinged on Anaheim which was the biggest tournament of all time until The International when it comes to viewership. Your facts are facts either. They said that initial Spring Arena was so successful from PPV that they could drop PPV and they impressed sponsors. Mind you, this was after 50+% of TL said they would not pay for PPV and MLG never produced any legitimate numbers regarding viewership. Now these mysterious sponsors are not paying up and MLG has to go back to PPV, seems odd. But for MLG and Sundance, misinformation and half truths really aren't that odd. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=347271doesnt say because of the Spring Arena. Says because of Spring Passes and crushed it with Anaheim.
What's your point? A few drunken tweets from Sundance? Many people actually involved in the SC2 scene came out and said Sundance's reasoning made 0 or less sense. To which he, not surprisingly, had no answer... like always when it comes to anything remotely business related.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On September 27 2012 10:58 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 10:36 Fenrax wrote:On September 27 2012 10:32 NHY wrote:On September 27 2012 10:27 Fenrax wrote:On September 27 2012 10:20 NHY wrote:On September 27 2012 09:37 Fenrax wrote:
Wow, I really have the feeling I side with Kespa this time.
Kespa players get TWO seeds to Code S RO32 while ESF gets EIGHT into the RO16 OSL and now they fucking complain??? eSF didn't get any seeds in OSL, neither did Kespa players. If anything, one can argue that Kespa got 6 seeds because they had separate dual tournament. they got eight players into the RO16 guaranteed. Kespa got two players into the RO32 guaranteed. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_OnGameNet_Starleague_Season_1/Dual_Tournament/Non-KeSPA Why are you overlooking at the fact that Kepa got 6 players into the RO16 guaranteed? There is no direct seed in OSL, unlike GSL. You can't compare them directly. It's more of Kespa getting 6 spots rather than eSF getting 8 spots. Of course you can compare them. Kespa could have easily made the ESF dual tournament give exactly 1 slot for the OSL to match the rate of Kespa players in GSL. Or 2. Or 3. Or 4. But they gave 8! 8 Kespa players in their own tournament RO16 is not a lot. 30 of 32 players in Code S on the other hand is a lot. Well, that is because OSL is the 'newcomer' to sc2. They kind of needed the eSF players to legitimize their league. Most people would have called it a sham if they just have 1 eSF seed and no open qualifiers. While GSL was more established and could let Kespa players come through the qualifiers.
And now the winrate has been at ~50% for a while. The point is that any complaints about an unfair format seem very off when you consider the headstart the nonkespa players got in the major leagues.
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Lol this joke of a thread is still going on thanks to the off-topic discussion about Arenas and other things. Can't believe TL is keeping this on the homepage. I would love for a mod to respond to my Website Feedback thread. The OP is a non-story because 1) BoSs didn't have confirmed insider information to give to slasher, he was just taking an educated guess, and 2) only two players declined the invite, one of whom has already said that he only wants to do Code S this season. I guess TL staff haven't learned the lesson from past news stories which turned out to be false because of a miscommunication/misunderstanding across languages and cultures? This thread was instantly put on the homepage, no doubt because Slasher has a connection among the TL staff. Yet, it's founded on unconfirmed conjecture from BoSs. So silly...
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On September 27 2012 07:56 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 07:49 jinorazi wrote:On September 27 2012 07:32 TommyP wrote:
“When KESPA hasn't helped develop MLG as much as ESF teams have.”
I think he meant to say, "Kespa hasnt helped develop MLG at all."
Also, eSF has every right to do this. They have made MLG great and Starcraft 2 great, they are the ones who deserve everything, not Kespa.
to be fair...kespa made sc2 great without even trying thanks to what they did with bw. i have no doubt sc2(including teamliquid) wouldnt be where it is now if it wasnt for kespa's bw scene. One could argue that if it weren't for KeSPA, the international BW scene would have been more developed because they wouldn't have been there to bar the best players from attending international events.
No it wouldn't.
Sorry but that's just garbage.
We still had some sponsorships and we had to work really hard for those. It would still be a grass root development.
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On September 27 2012 11:03 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 10:59 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 27 2012 10:55 SupLilSon wrote:On September 27 2012 10:50 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 27 2012 10:46 SupLilSon wrote:On September 27 2012 10:37 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 27 2012 10:30 SupLilSon wrote:On September 27 2012 10:25 felisconcolori wrote:On September 27 2012 10:24 SupLilSon wrote:On September 27 2012 10:21 jmbthirteen wrote:
[quote]
watch Lo3. MLG doesn't have a choice. How do they not have a choice? Because Sundance said that or because they actually gave legitimate reasoning? Just asking because Sundance has clearly shown in the past that he has no qualms with hiding or completely fabricating information to suit his stance. MLGLee said on LO3 that an outside entity is making them have it PPV, and that he could not say who due to NDA agreements. But it wasn't KeSPA, and they want to have it free. Ok yea.. sounds like more grade A, concocted MLG bullshit. then why say if it was 2013, this would be free? why lie when they have already ran PPV events? I honestly don't know what you are asking me. The facts are, Sundance repeatedly lied to the public about MLG funding and their initial reasons/pressures for going PPV. He claims that PPV was SO successful that it enabled them to drop PPV model in favor of sponsorships (Mind you they never even released numbers to back any of this up). Now they are going back to PPV because "an outside entity is making them have it PPV" but conveniently they can't mention this "entity" and it's not KeSPA. I don't care if I have everything 1000% wrong, at first sight MLG and Sundance especially just stink to me and I'm not going to hand my money over to him. He didn't claim PPV was so successful. MLG claimed their spring season was so successful that they could drop PPV, and that hinged on Anaheim which was the biggest tournament of all time until The International when it comes to viewership. Your facts aren't facts either. They said that initial Spring Arena was so successful from PPV that they could drop PPV and they impressed sponsors. Mind you, this was after 50+% of TL said they would not pay for PPV and MLG never produced any legitimate numbers regarding viewership. Now these mysterious sponsors are not paying up and MLG has to go back to PPV, seems odd. But for MLG and Sundance, misinformation and half truths really aren't that odd. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=347271doesnt say because of the Spring Arena. Says because of Spring Passes and crushed it with Anaheim. What's your point? A few drunken tweets from Sundance? Many people actually involved in the SC2 scene came out and said Sundance's reasoning made 0 or less sense.
Show me the evidence where MLG said it was because PPV was so successful that they were able to drop it? Thats NEVER what they said, yet so many people took it that way. Thats why it seemed like it made 0 sense. But thats never what happened. Extremely successful spring season, mainly due to Anaheim being ridiculously successful, lead to Full Sail sponsoring the Arenas making them free.
The fact that you call that a few drunken tweets from Sundance tells me that I should stop trying to even explain it because your mind is made up, you hate MLG and Sundance. So, I'm done.
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On September 27 2012 11:09 Doodsmack wrote:
Lol this joke of a thread is still going on thanks to the off-topic discussion about Arenas and other things. Can't believe TL is keeping this on the homepage. I would love for a mod to respond to my Website Feedback thread. The OP is a non-story because 1) BoSs didn't have confirmed insider information to give to slasher, he was just taking an educated guess, and 2) only two players declined the invite, one of whom has already said that he only wants to do Code S this season. I guess TL staff haven't learned the lesson from past news stories which turned out to be false because of a miscommunication/misunderstanding across languages and cultures? This thread was instantly put on the homepage, no doubt because Slasher has a connection among the TL staff. Yet, it's founded on unconfirmed conjecture from BoSs. So silly...
Yeah, they could at least put a disclaimer at the top of the page like they often do.
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lol let mlg have a ESF vs MLG next time around.
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On September 27 2012 10:35 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 10:32 Fenrax wrote:On September 27 2012 10:28 S_SienZ wrote:On September 27 2012 10:22 Fenrax wrote:
And how the hell is letting noname players (for the Kespa audience) into the OSL maximizing profits? Bisu in the OSL would have made them insanely more profit compared to someone like Oz. Coz they want to get the GSL audience? The GSL audience is very small compared to the Kespa audience. From a business standpoint I could see letting 4 big names in to attract foreign viewers to their stream but I don't believe they wouldn't have let 50% players from another organization in without massive pressure from Blizz. If keeping their BW audience were their main goal, then they would've simply not moved to sc2.
They were running out of sponsorship options.
It was a harder sell so ultimately it ran its course.
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On September 27 2012 11:03 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 10:59 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 27 2012 10:55 SupLilSon wrote:On September 27 2012 10:50 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 27 2012 10:46 SupLilSon wrote:On September 27 2012 10:37 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 27 2012 10:30 SupLilSon wrote:On September 27 2012 10:25 felisconcolori wrote:On September 27 2012 10:24 SupLilSon wrote:On September 27 2012 10:21 jmbthirteen wrote:
[quote]
watch Lo3. MLG doesn't have a choice. How do they not have a choice? Because Sundance said that or because they actually gave legitimate reasoning? Just asking because Sundance has clearly shown in the past that he has no qualms with hiding or completely fabricating information to suit his stance. MLGLee said on LO3 that an outside entity is making them have it PPV, and that he could not say who due to NDA agreements. But it wasn't KeSPA, and they want to have it free. Ok yea.. sounds like more grade A, concocted MLG bullshit. then why say if it was 2013, this would be free? why lie when they have already ran PPV events? I honestly don't know what you are asking me. The facts are, Sundance repeatedly lied to the public about MLG funding and their initial reasons/pressures for going PPV. He claims that PPV was SO successful that it enabled them to drop PPV model in favor of sponsorships (Mind you they never even released numbers to back any of this up). Now they are going back to PPV because "an outside entity is making them have it PPV" but conveniently they can't mention this "entity" and it's not KeSPA. I don't care if I have everything 1000% wrong, at first sight MLG and Sundance especially just stink to me and I'm not going to hand my money over to him. He didn't claim PPV was so successful. MLG claimed their spring season was so successful that they could drop PPV, and that hinged on Anaheim which was the biggest tournament of all time until The International when it comes to viewership. Your facts are facts either. They said that initial Spring Arena was so successful from PPV that they could drop PPV and they impressed sponsors. Mind you, this was after 50+% of TL said they would not pay for PPV and MLG never produced any legitimate numbers regarding viewership. Now these mysterious sponsors are not paying up and MLG has to go back to PPV, seems odd. But for MLG and Sundance, misinformation and half truths really aren't that odd. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=347271doesnt say because of the Spring Arena. Says because of Spring Passes and crushed it with Anaheim. What's your point? A few drunken tweets from Sundance? Many people actually involved in the SC2 scene came out and said Sundance's reasoning made 0 or less sense. To which he, not surprisingly, had no answer... like always when it comes to anything remotely business related.
Why do you assume that the sponsors aren't paying up?
MLG should always aim for more profit. More profit means more expanding. It's not like Sundance is driving around in a new sports car with a mansion and a yacht.
If you can't afford this tournament, that's fine. Watch other things and hope that MLG makes enough money from this to do even better things in the future. We're all wanting to further e-sports here. There isn't anyone lining their pockets - not yet anyway.
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It seems these days you can't sleep if you are involved in e-sports. Because when you wake up, you wake up to shit like this.
What the hell?
I was asked on my opinion and gave it. It went on the record.
The actual problem here is that the people directly involved, haven't opened their mouth. Such as MLG ESF players or managers so everyone decides to jump on the drama bandwagon, when to be honest there is nothing to really see here.
This might just be my slipped disc talking cos I'm in alot of pain right now, but what the fuck? Seriously? We expect money to come into an industry where shit like this happens within 8 hours? Words written on the page can be clearly viewed as opinion, thats why I allowed it to be on the record. If I were not expressing my personal opinion, I for sure would not allow it to go on the record, because of shit like this.
The community now has 2 choices, 1) Expect people to go on the record about stuff like this i.e organisations, teams etc. or 2) Stop giving a shit about drama.
I dare say if people who are directly involved actually had the balls to explain the truth, then this type of shit wouldn't happen all the time.
I am sorry that something quoted and what was intended to be quoted as my opinion, caused so much shit. Next time, I promise I will not give my opinion in any official standpoint because to be honest, I dont need the phone calls at 6 am asking what the fuck is going on.
<3 FXOBoSs
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On September 27 2012 11:18 dcemuser wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 11:03 SupLilSon wrote:On September 27 2012 10:59 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 27 2012 10:55 SupLilSon wrote:On September 27 2012 10:50 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 27 2012 10:46 SupLilSon wrote:On September 27 2012 10:37 jmbthirteen wrote:On September 27 2012 10:30 SupLilSon wrote:On September 27 2012 10:25 felisconcolori wrote:On September 27 2012 10:24 SupLilSon wrote:
[quote]
How do they not have a choice? Because Sundance said that or because they actually gave legitimate reasoning? Just asking because Sundance has clearly shown in the past that he has no qualms with hiding or completely fabricating information to suit his stance. MLGLee said on LO3 that an outside entity is making them have it PPV, and that he could not say who due to NDA agreements. But it wasn't KeSPA, and they want to have it free. Ok yea.. sounds like more grade A, concocted MLG bullshit. then why say if it was 2013, this would be free? why lie when they have already ran PPV events? I honestly don't know what you are asking me. The facts are, Sundance repeatedly lied to the public about MLG funding and their initial reasons/pressures for going PPV. He claims that PPV was SO successful that it enabled them to drop PPV model in favor of sponsorships (Mind you they never even released numbers to back any of this up). Now they are going back to PPV because "an outside entity is making them have it PPV" but conveniently they can't mention this "entity" and it's not KeSPA. I don't care if I have everything 1000% wrong, at first sight MLG and Sundance especially just stink to me and I'm not going to hand my money over to him. He didn't claim PPV was so successful. MLG claimed their spring season was so successful that they could drop PPV, and that hinged on Anaheim which was the biggest tournament of all time until The International when it comes to viewership. Your facts are facts either. They said that initial Spring Arena was so successful from PPV that they could drop PPV and they impressed sponsors. Mind you, this was after 50+% of TL said they would not pay for PPV and MLG never produced any legitimate numbers regarding viewership. Now these mysterious sponsors are not paying up and MLG has to go back to PPV, seems odd. But for MLG and Sundance, misinformation and half truths really aren't that odd. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=347271doesnt say because of the Spring Arena. Says because of Spring Passes and crushed it with Anaheim. What's your point? A few drunken tweets from Sundance? Many people actually involved in the SC2 scene came out and said Sundance's reasoning made 0 or less sense. To which he, not surprisingly, had no answer... like always when it comes to anything remotely business related. Why do you assume that the sponsors aren't paying up? MLG should always aim for more profit. More profit means more expanding. It's not like Sundance is driving around in a new sports car with a mansion and a yacht.
The point is, you don't know what to expect when it comes to MLG. One week they are firing half their staff because they can't keep up with overhead, then the next week they are being showered with sponsorships. Week after that they need 20$ PPV or they will go into the red and then the next week they made so much money are running out of bank space so they give everything away for free! They either don't know what they are doing or they aren't being straight up about it.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
Thanks for your post FXO BoSs.
On September 27 2012 11:18 FXOBoSs wrote:
I dare say if people who are directly involved actually had the balls to explain the truth, then this type of shit wouldn't happen all the time.
The community agrees with that. But if the truth is not explained like you say, then what is left for us except to speculate?
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On September 27 2012 11:23 Fenrax wrote:Thanks for your post FXO BoSs. Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 11:18 FXOBoSs wrote:
I dare say if people who are directly involved actually had the balls to explain the truth, then this type of shit wouldn't happen all the time. The community agrees with that. But if the truth is not explained like you say, then what is left for us except to speculate?
If the truth isn't there. Start demanding it. Social media is a bitch. Trust me, if I get spammed on twitter it forces me to speak and should work the same for everyone else.
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On September 27 2012 11:25 FXOBoSs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 11:23 Fenrax wrote:Thanks for your post FXO BoSs. On September 27 2012 11:18 FXOBoSs wrote:
I dare say if people who are directly involved actually had the balls to explain the truth, then this type of shit wouldn't happen all the time. The community agrees with that. But if the truth is not explained like you say, then what is left for us except to speculate? If the truth isn't there. Start demanding it. Social media is a bitch. Trust me, if I get spammed on twitter it forces me to speak and should work the same for everyone else.
So tell us what you know (if there is something you haven't yet)!
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Like I said in the other MLG thread. the new MLG format was an indirect attack on the ESF/GSL teams and I'm happy they took this option
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On September 27 2012 11:25 FXOBoSs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 11:23 Fenrax wrote:Thanks for your post FXO BoSs. On September 27 2012 11:18 FXOBoSs wrote:
I dare say if people who are directly involved actually had the balls to explain the truth, then this type of shit wouldn't happen all the time. The community agrees with that. But if the truth is not explained like you say, then what is left for us except to speculate? If the truth isn't there. Start demanding it. Social media is a bitch. Trust me, if I get spammed on twitter it forces me to speak and should work the same for everyone else.
See why I don't use Twitter?
I only deal with direct phone calls and I love it. BD
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On September 27 2012 11:27 Fenrax wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 11:25 FXOBoSs wrote:On September 27 2012 11:23 Fenrax wrote:Thanks for your post FXO BoSs. On September 27 2012 11:18 FXOBoSs wrote:
I dare say if people who are directly involved actually had the balls to explain the truth, then this type of shit wouldn't happen all the time. The community agrees with that. But if the truth is not explained like you say, then what is left for us except to speculate? If the truth isn't there. Start demanding it. Social media is a bitch. Trust me, if I get spammed on twitter it forces me to speak and should work the same for everyone else. So tell us what you know (if there is something you haven't yet)!
Unstable has already addressed what I know. As he woke me up with a phone call asking WTF....
It wasn't forced on players from ESF.. There are like hundreds of reasons why. For instance, Leenock wanted to focus on GSL. Some complained of lag, others complained of the fairness.
Personally, I think they deserved more invites also because of all the time and money thats been invested by them/us growing MLG.
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On September 27 2012 11:30 FXOBoSs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 11:27 Fenrax wrote:On September 27 2012 11:25 FXOBoSs wrote:On September 27 2012 11:23 Fenrax wrote:Thanks for your post FXO BoSs. On September 27 2012 11:18 FXOBoSs wrote:
I dare say if people who are directly involved actually had the balls to explain the truth, then this type of shit wouldn't happen all the time. The community agrees with that. But if the truth is not explained like you say, then what is left for us except to speculate? If the truth isn't there. Start demanding it. Social media is a bitch. Trust me, if I get spammed on twitter it forces me to speak and should work the same for everyone else. So tell us what you know (if there is something you haven't yet)! Unstable has already addressed what I know. As he woke me up with a phone call asking WTF.... It wasn't forced on players from ESF.. There are like hundreds of reasons why. For instance, Leenock wanted to focus on GSL. Some complained of lag, others complained of the fairness. Personally, I think they deserved more invites also because of all the time and money thats been invested by them/us growing MLG.
As always, thank you for being a boss, Boss. Hopefully this stops the pages and pages of unnecessary drama.
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In light of BoSs' comments confirming he did not have insider, factual information, at the very least the headline for this should be altered. The headline is currently intended to imply that ESF teams declined in unison. That clearly is not the truth.
I would again encourage others to post in my Website Feedback thread.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=371786
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EPT
