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On September 13 2012 18:01 mikkmagro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 17:52 ins(out)side wrote:
Paying MoW 600 Euros a month AND being forced to stream AND then share that revenue must put most aspiring pro gamers in a really tough spot financially. Not to mention, all that streaming makes your play style available for study by any opponents. Because of this, doing well in tournaments becomes more difficult because anyone worth their salt will have been watching your 5 hours a day of streaming SC2. Its a vicious cycle.
Can anyone confirm or clarify on this 10 year madness? No joining another team for 10 years? WTF? What is wrong with your run of the mill non-disclosure agreement? For the billionth time, Fuzer misinterpreted or something. It didn't say not join another team/team house, it said that you can't set up your own training house, or join one as coach. I guess they don't want their 'trade secrets' exposed. Again, this is not uncommon in the business world.
It's absolutely ridiculous to bar an athlete from working as a coach because he goes to a training camp. A non-competition clause this far-reaching and long-term is ABSOLUTELY uncommon in the business world, and from a quick perusal of Polish contract law, it's entirely illegal because MoW is not compensating these people for 10 years. In fact, you can't have a non-competition clause if you're not PAYING someone.
Also, stop whining about the 600EUR and Revenue Share in streaming. First of all, MoW is a business, it's clients know what they're getting into, if they can't afford it, then they can simply look for other options.
The question here is if MoW discloses this information to people before taking their money. The 600EUR is fine and I've seen very few people argue that it's excessive, only that it should be sufficient to cover both costs and profit expectations. Revenue sharing and mandatory streaming are a huge deal and honestly sounds entirely illegal. Charging people to work for you, for free?
Fuzer asking permission to send the contract to his lawyer is also stupid. NDAs don't prohibit you from speaking to your lawyer, ever, as having legal representation is a human right.
Fuzer never asked for permission, he said he's not signing the contract until his lawyer looks at it.
Stop this witch-hunt, it's idiotic. Both parties slipped up, no use in trying to ruin a (so far) legitimate business because someone's English was not that good.
Oh please. This has nothing to do with anyone's level of English fluency. Undisclosed mandatory streaming with revenue sharing, and a 10-year "can't work as a coach" clause are ludicrous. It's a fucking scam.
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On September 13 2012 18:20 Jetaap wrote:
I wish people we spend half as much energy on positive projects that they spend on witchhunting.. seriously >_<
Stop calling a legitimate complaint a "witch hunt". These "witches" were actually caught turning people into newts.
Borderline criminal activity is more worthy of universal attention than whatever pet project you wish we'd support.
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Am i missing something or why are players joining this house ? I mean, in every gaming house i've seen theres been focus on actual "training", players helping players. But from what ive seen of the players in Ministry of Win they are basicly sitting quietly and streaming for 6 hours + ..................
They could do the same from theyre home except they dont have to pay and share theyre streaming revenues. So basicly they are giving up theyre streaming revenues and tons of practice to live in a big house ?
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On September 13 2012 18:24 Hyouma wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 18:21 obsu51 wrote:On September 13 2012 17:35 Agathon wrote:- Joining a house with a rent and strict rules and paying blindly without reading/signing any contract... ...Stephano said it the best...When i rent a new appartment, i read the lease...and I don't pay anything until the owner and I signed it. Like...everybody ! oral contracts are just as valid as written ones I can sing up under this statement as well.
You can even work for a company indefinitely without having ever signed a written contract. Some people always seem to have this strange understanding that as soon as you don't have thing in a written form (contract/receipts) then nothing holds in front of a court and you can do whatever you want.
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C-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-c-circle jerk.
User was warned for this post
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This is sad, MoW was demanding and acted like a child and Fuzer behave like a spoiled brat!
MoW faults:
- 5 hour streaming obligation where they get a % is a bit too much, what if they want to play a tournament? What if they want to play qualification? What if they are preparing for a particular offline tournament?
- Lack of food and bad "quality" of food - this is the worst for me, for 600€ in Poland you expect a "hotel" like situation where food doesn't lack and you have variety of meat, fish and veggies... It's the least you can has a host!
- partys in the house without the players
Fuzer's faults:
- Behave like a bully when he aparently misread the contract
- Creating a shit storm that won't bode well for him and for people that invested money in eSports, even if they lack experience and made mistakes
- Pitchforking it up!
Very sad situation.. I wish Fuzer talk it over instead of going so fast to conflict.. It doesn't benefit no one imo!
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I read all these posts and i i didn't found information if Fuzer knew that, if he left earlier he must still pay for the entire month. If he knew and agrees ( even without contract ) that he should pay this.
Polish law says that:
In theory, verbal agreement is just as important as the agreement made in writing. The Civil Code does not introduce restrictions or distinctions here. And just because you do not do this, it is assumed that the contract is just as important, it has been concluded in writing and orally. (For the record, I might add, that the Civil Code introduces certain requirements as to the form required for certain contracts, so-called. Specific forms, but do not include an agreement to perform such services).
In practice, however, the problem is to prove that the contract was concluded, and that is such, and no other content. This will be important in the event of a dispute before the court.
You can rely on witnesses, for any evidence of negotiations - eg. e-mail correspondence. If, however, the only evidence are arguments of the parties, the court will decide to whom to give faith.
So if they both agrees on that terms and they have proofs, or witnesses ( and i'm pretty sure it was mentioned when they talked ), the Fuzer shouldn't get the money back, but if this wasn't mentioned they should get his money back without this drama.
Kind regards
ShaD321
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Btw regarding language, in order to make the contract binding there should be a clause where you agree that you fully understand english language, if the contract is written in english and its not your native language.
Otherwise the contract will have problem with legal binding.
Another thing: When signing a non-compete clause there is usually compensation included for the period of the non-compete clause. Its perfectly okay for companies to do this, but if you ask for compensation it should be given or the clause should be deleted.
10 years is very high for a non-compete clause, but given the circumstances its realistic to think that the non-compete clauses is intended to be in effect after you stop your career as a programmer and NOT immediately after leaving the house. This part is unrelated to the existing contract which is considering you as a progamer working there paying streaming hours and promoting MoW and more with a payment of food, shelter and more.
I 100% understand that you included a lawyer in this, as some parts of the contracts treats MoW as a form of intellectuel property or know-how, while another part is about you as a progamer. I would have done the same anytime.
Also since the contract has a wide span, it would be feasible for MoW to divide the contract, one NDA, one MoW house, one Progamer-contract.
As this escalates and the contract is not signed, you can treat it as you got thrown out of the house, whether you can treat the money you initially paid as a form of rent is a good question. I would say no because there are many other resources you get from the house, computer time, streaming time, bed, lunch bla bla, and looking from MoW perspective its perhaps not easy for them to recuperate the losses from paying you back easily. If they fill your bed with someone else, then things change from a court stance - and you should be able to get your money back. But it still depends of the wording of the initial negotiation, if its on a membership basis then the answer is no, you cannot get it back. If the money was specifically targeted to the period of stay and can be interpreted as a form of rent then you should be able to get them back - if MoW can get a new player to fill for the remaining period where you should have been there.
All things aside, from any point of view I would never advise to sign such a contract, as you are giving up/or can be hold responsible for something 10 years later.
Also a final note, what you typically should be cautious about non-compete contracts is if they DO or DO NOT imply whether the other part, in this case MoW, has to have sustained damage in order for the non-compete contract to be binding.
Dont sign something that puts you in making-pro-gaming-house-jail for 10 years, without a clause based on region, permissions or damages to your advantage.
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Warsaw, Poland, September 13 – It with is with a great sadness and regret that we must ever part ways prematurely with a participant. We take the environment and the progression of each and every participant at MoW very seriously. The specific arrangements between a participant and the facility are kept strictly confidential and we have and will continue to make every effort to fulfill our obligations to both our participants and the greater community. We are grateful for your continued support as we continue our pursuit of genuine innovation, fueled by our shared passion and dedication for helping our participants achieve greatness. Thank you!
We have two interviews for you, one with TitaN and second one with Ret. They are sharing their thoughts about living in Ministry of Win, it is worth checking it.
Let's break this badboy down. First off, the highest grade you can receive is a B+ after being late.
It with is with a great sadness and regret that we must ever part ways prematurely with a participant. We take the environment and the progression of each and every participant at MoW very seriously.
Useless fluff
The specific arrangements between a participant and the facility are kept strictly confidential and we have and will continue to make every effort to fulfill our obligations to both our participants and the greater community. Okay Dokie that's cool except for the second half that was useless fluff.
We are grateful for your continued support as we continue our pursuit of genuine innovation, fueled by our shared passion and dedication for helping our participants achieve greatness. Thank you!
Motherfucker really? Empty fluff here too.
We have two interviews for you, one with TitaN and second one with Ret. They are sharing their thoughts about living in Ministry of Win, it is worth checking it.
Did you just advertise your damn hype videos while catching massive shit in the news while not actually discussing any of the accusations leveled against you?
D- (sympathy points for penmanship)
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It's absolutely ridiculous to bar an athlete from working as a coach because he goes to a training camp. A non-competition clause this far-reaching and long-term is ABSOLUTELY uncommon in the business world, and from a quick perusal of Polish contract law, it's entirely illegal because MoW is not compensating these people for 10 years. In fact, you can't have a non-competition clause if you're not PAYING someone.
I've seen non-compete clauses for employees working in a furniture factory for up to 7 years. Yes, as I've said in a previous post, it would also be next to impossible for MoW to enforce something like that in court.
The question here is if MoW discloses this information to people before taking their money. The 600EUR is fine and I've seen very few people argue that it's excessive, only that it should be sufficient to cover both costs and profit expectations. Revenue sharing and mandatory streaming are a huge deal and honestly sounds entirely illegal. Charging people to work for you, for free?
A lot of people here are saying it's excessive. It doesn't sound that unfair to me, it's just a condition for staying there, like in some rent contracts you can have a clause saying that once a month the person renting must wash the communal areas for example. DesRow and Destiny, in their posts, seems to have known all about these clauses, can't understand why Fuzer didn't.
Fuzer never asked for permission, he said he's not signing the contract until his lawyer looks at it.
Then why didnt his lawyer look at it? Because MoW insisted that the lawyer shows them his licence, which is stupid.
Oh please. This has nothing to do with anyone's level of English fluency. Undisclosed mandatory streaming with revenue sharing, and a 10-year "can't work as a coach" clause are ludicrous. It's a fucking scam.
I can't understand how it was undisclosed..everyone else seems to have known. I assumed it was because MoW have talked about streaming schedules in their interviews etc in the past.
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On September 13 2012 18:35 shell wrote:
This is sad, MoW was demanding and acted like a child and Fuzer behave like a spoiled brat!
MoW faults:
- 5 hour streaming obligation where they get a % is a bit too much, what if they want to play a tournament? What if they want to play qualification? What if they are preparing for a particular offline tournament?
- Lack of food and bad "quality" of food - this is the worst for me, for 600€ in Poland you expect a "hotel" like situation where food doesn't lack and you have variety of meat, fish and veggies... It's the least you can has a host!
- partys in the house without the players
Fuzer's faults:
- Behave like a bully when he aparently misread the contract
- Creating a shit storm that won't bode well for him and for people that invested money in eSports, even if they lack experience and made mistakes
- Pitchforking it up!
Very sad situation.. I wish Fuzer talk it over instead of going so fast to conflict.. It doesn't benefit no one imo!
maybe in Poortugal you can expect a (rofl) "hotel" like situation for 600 euro, but not in Poland, especially not in Warsaw.
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On September 13 2012 18:35 shad321 wrote:
I read all these posts and i i didn't found information if Fuzer knew that, if he left earlier he must still pay for the entire month. If he knew and agrees ( even without contract ) that he should pay this.
Polish law says that:
In theory, verbal agreement is just as important as the agreement made in writing. The Civil Code does not introduce restrictions or distinctions here. And just because you do not do this, it is assumed that the contract is just as important, it has been concluded in writing and orally. (For the record, I might add, that the Civil Code introduces certain requirements as to the form required for certain contracts, so-called. Specific forms, but do not include an agreement to perform such services).
In practice, however, the problem is to prove that the contract was concluded, and that is such, and no other content. This will be important in the event of a dispute before the court.
You can rely on witnesses, for any evidence of negotiations - eg. e-mail correspondence. If, however, the only evidence are arguments of the parties, the court will decide to whom to give faith.
So if they both agrees on that terms and they have proofs, or witnesses ( and i'm pretty sure it was mentioned when they talked ), the Fuzer shouldn't get the money back, but if this wasn't mentioned they should get his money back without this drama.
Kind regards
ShaD321
In general they cannot resell his bookings without repaying him. Depending on the terms they might be able to keep the money.
I would strongly advise MoW to get another progamer there and repay the money ASAP for the sake of PR.
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On September 13 2012 08:23 MinistryOfWin wrote:
We didn't wanted to start the flame war but to complete this in civilized manner. Fuzer was reprimanded more than 10 times, about cleaning his room, keeping the gaming room clean, nothing helped. We have decided that we will sign the contract as soon as possible so we can enforce the house rules on him, but he declined. He declined second time.
Streaming time - quote from the contract: 150 hours per month, unless having a series of training events or trips to StarCraft II tournaments. We are all humans, we are not forcing the players to stream 4 hours a day.
Streaming ad-revenue: Thanks to strategic partnership with Twitch, players living in the house still can earn more money from ad-revenue than they normally could, Fuzer didn't even had any partnership before that.
Honestly if you guys really want this to go away/ be resolved; why not just post the general "contract" that you require people to sign. I am sure(maybe not) everyone understands that each players contract is not verbatim but for the most part though the wording will be the same.
Whats one of the most disturbing things from the view of someone living in the USA; is the "10 year no compete clause". NCC's are very very hard to enforce I say this as a network administrator who has worked for a company with a sales force of approximately 75 people in a bio medical field. Needless to say our company and their competition was constantly poaching each other regardless of no complete causes. Anything over 2years here at least does not exist in the private sector(maybe in the government sector) Also some states(California for instance) have ruled that non compete clauses are void.
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On September 13 2012 18:35 shell wrote:
This is sad, MoW was demanding and acted like a child and Fuzer behave like a spoiled brat!
MoW faults:
- 5 hour streaming obligation where they get a % is a bit too much, what if they want to play a tournament? What if they want to play qualification? What if they are preparing for a particular offline tournament?
- Lack of food and bad "quality" of food - this is the worst for me, for 600€ in Poland you expect a "hotel" like situation where food doesn't lack and you have variety of meat, fish and veggies... It's the least you can has a host!
- partys in the house without the players
Fuzer's faults:
- Behave like a bully when he aparently misread the contract
- Creating a shit storm that won't bode well for him and for people that invested money in eSports, even if they lack experience and made mistakes
- Pitchforking it up!
Very sad situation.. I wish Fuzer talk it over instead of going so fast to conflict.. It doesn't benefit no one imo!
"We agreed on skype that I stay there for 3 months and I pay 2500zlt monthly (around 600euros)."
They agreed about the rent beforehand, but the written contract is about making sure that the inhabitant understands and agrees all the terms, which he didn't. two separate agreements. right?
"When we talked about my coming I was only interested about my practicing over there and that's what we agreed."
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On September 13 2012 18:40 mikkmagro wrote:Show nested quote +It's absolutely ridiculous to bar an athlete from working as a coach because he goes to a training camp. A non-competition clause this far-reaching and long-term is ABSOLUTELY uncommon in the business world, and from a quick perusal of Polish contract law, it's entirely illegal because MoW is not compensating these people for 10 years. In fact, you can't have a non-competition clause if you're not PAYING someone. I've seen non-compete clauses for employees working in a furniture factory for up to 7 years. Yes, as I've said in a previous post, it would also be next to impossible for MoW to enforce something like that in court. Show nested quote +The question here is if MoW discloses this information to people before taking their money. The 600EUR is fine and I've seen very few people argue that it's excessive, only that it should be sufficient to cover both costs and profit expectations. Revenue sharing and mandatory streaming are a huge deal and honestly sounds entirely illegal. Charging people to work for you, for free? A lot of people here are saying it's excessive. It doesn't sound that unfair to me, it's just a condition for staying there, like in some rent contracts you can have a clause saying that once a month the person renting must wash the communal areas for example. DesRow and Destiny, in their posts, seems to have known all about these clauses, can't understand why Fuzer didn't. Show nested quote +Fuzer never asked for permission, he said he's not signing the contract until his lawyer looks at it. Then why didnt his lawyer look at it? Because MoW insisted that the lawyer shows them his licence, which is stupid. Show nested quote +Oh please. This has nothing to do with anyone's level of English fluency. Undisclosed mandatory streaming with revenue sharing, and a 10-year "can't work as a coach" clause are ludicrous. It's a fucking scam. I can't understand how it was undisclosed..everyone else seems to have known. I assumed it was because MoW have talked about streaming schedules in their interviews etc in the past.
Totally agree with this guy.
They want a prove from his lawyer? Wtf?
You MUST get ... aware by shit like that, that something is not right.
And then you have concerning quotes like this:
"According to current MoW house resident Marc-Olivier "desRow" Proulx , Fuzer's description of certain details of the contract, including a 10-year non-compete clause (contracted players are not allowed to open another gaming house for duration of the non-compete) and streaming quotas, are accurate. “The prohibition of competition page is a bit sketchy, but I think it just needs to be reworded,” he said."
So this part seems to be actually true. It was Fuzers right to want support from his lawyer since it is phrased that way.
If MoW was interested in fixing that problem they would just send the contract to the lawyer and recieved the response as consrtuctive critisizsm
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The best part definitely was when the MoW boss denied that he had received the payment for the 2nd month but later tried to blackmail Fuzer to not reveal the story. No amount of fluff and PR statements can explain that, disgusting.
I hope everything will work out for you Fuzer, you are a cool guy. 
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I'm hoping MoW won't fly new members in BEFORE the contract is signed.
I'm hoping new members won't fly in BEFORE the contract is signed.
This is the real lesson to be learned for either party.
Fuzer should get a copy of the contract before signing it, this copy could have been sent to his lawyer?
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On September 13 2012 18:30 .syd. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 18:24 Hyouma wrote:On September 13 2012 18:21 obsu51 wrote:On September 13 2012 17:35 Agathon wrote:- Joining a house with a rent and strict rules and paying blindly without reading/signing any contract... ...Stephano said it the best...When i rent a new appartment, i read the lease...and I don't pay anything until the owner and I signed it. Like...everybody ! oral contracts are just as valid as written ones I can sing up under this statement as well. You can even work for a company indefinitely without having ever signed a written contract. Some people always seem to have this strange understanding that as soon as you don't have thing in a written form (contract/receipts) then nothing holds in front of a court and you can do whatever you want.
Yep. I mean from what I can tell, there's no way Fuzer agreed to the streaming times, revenue share etc, but he did have a verbal contract agreed with MoW to stay for two months and for payment beforehand. Due to being kicked out, MoW were unable to fulfil the contractual agreement and therefore legally required to refund the money. That ultimatum "accept money and be quiet or keep speaking out and prepare for war" is just ugly. Quite alot of mistakes from the MoW end IMO.
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On September 13 2012 18:59 kOllaps wrote:Show nested quote +On September 13 2012 18:30 .syd. wrote:On September 13 2012 18:24 Hyouma wrote:On September 13 2012 18:21 obsu51 wrote:On September 13 2012 17:35 Agathon wrote:- Joining a house with a rent and strict rules and paying blindly without reading/signing any contract... ...Stephano said it the best...When i rent a new appartment, i read the lease...and I don't pay anything until the owner and I signed it. Like...everybody ! oral contracts are just as valid as written ones I can sing up under this statement as well. You can even work for a company indefinitely without having ever signed a written contract. Some people always seem to have this strange understanding that as soon as you don't have thing in a written form (contract/receipts) then nothing holds in front of a court and you can do whatever you want. Yep. I mean from what I can tell, there's no way Fuzer agreed to the streaming times, revenue share etc, but he did have a verbal contract agreed with MoW to stay for two months and for payment beforehand. Due to being kicked out, MoW were unable to fulfil the contractual agreement and therefore legally required to refund the money. That ultimatum "accept money and be quiet or keep speaking out and prepare for war" is just ugly. Quite alot of mistakes from the MoW end IMO.
It is even funnier considering the NDA wasnt pinned together and you didn't need to sign on every page :D
But yea as far as I can say fuzer was definatly one of the guys who streamed the most. So he at least try to live up to the (not signed) contract.
And the mafia methods from MoW are just disgusting.
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Let say fuzer signed the contract and two years from now decided to be a coach, would MoW really care ? What would they do ?
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EPT
