On September 13 2012 19:35 Sablar wrote: Sounds awful and I can't help but think of the whole ESFI-article as rigged because it's one-sided enough to be an ad for MoW.
"a Skype log that had him offering Fuzer the refund of the second month’s fee, but that Fuzer declined to accept it." - So post the skype log because so much could have happened there. Maybe he said "No, I want some of the money for the first month also".
But who knows and of course it's all pretty much speculation. Not surprised to see some controversy in a house but sad to see that it looks kind of serious.
Fuzer already wrote in his first unedited OP that they offered him the money, but they only offered it to him after he told them he would go public with the story. He chose to decline the money and inform the e-sports community, since he didn't like the way they work and wants to show that behind the scenes things aren't as they look on first sight.
So I don't know why people act surprised that MoW offered him the money at the end to keep him quiet, Fuzer told us that to begin with.
Edit: From the OP: "When I wrote to my facebook page that they stole my money, right away the boss asked about my bank account, but anyways I decided to tell the story. I know I may lose the money but atleast I can do something for esports and reveal some things aren't as nice as you may think."
Offering him the money with strings is unacceptable anyway, it's his money. If the written contract adds onerous terms over whats been agreed, sign or leave and we keep your money isn't an acceptable response. I doubt any court will view MoW's actions as reasonable.
And they do need to be reasonable here or their reputation will be shot, fighting this in the press is immature if they don't mean the contract terms to be onerous they need to be open to negotiating them. If all this stays in the contract they need to get the contracts to people and signed before they move in and before they take peoples money. Hiding things in small print is only going to create drama and hurt their reputation.
That Fuzers not acting in the most mature way isn't all that relevant, he's not the one running the buisness. I get immature and shouty when companies take my money too. As a programmer I won't sign contracts or start jobs that make claims on my past and future IP or broad restrictions on working in the same industry (common clauses pushed into contracts, obviously unacceptable) this is not all that dissimilar.
Give the kid his money back, say you're sorry for the misunderstanding, fix the contract and it all goes away. Anything else, not a good move professionally.
On September 13 2012 19:57 Rimak wrote: Wait, wait, wait.
So that means that TITAN and other MoW house guests won't be able to train in any other team house, or coach for ten (10!!) years?
This is just sooo absurd. Im really sceptical on the future of MoW.
No they can train and join as player, just not coach or manage in a teamhouse, that's to protect their business ideas, training methods etc.
And that's the utterly ridiculous part.
It's like I'm going to start taking Karate lessons and the fine print says that I can't work in a dojo for 10 years.
Why? Maby players that pratcice there have no plans to open own gaming house . I get your point and your point is better then half ofother post here but , lets dont make angel from fuzer. There was and there is many players in MoW , but only fuzer have some problems with contract..only him. Im not saying that this contract is very good for players (but only this part of 10 years non compete) , but im asking why only fuzer have some problems with MoW ? , other residents are stupid...and only him see the problem.. ? or what.. ?
I can't understand how it was undisclosed..everyone else seems to have known. I assumed it was because MoW have talked about streaming schedules in their interviews etc in the past.
Another player on adding things before they got there:
On September 13 2012 10:25 LgNkarmy wrote:
This is true, When I arrived to MoW there were a few things that I didn't know were happening, I take responsibility not getting my contract before moving but at the same time, There were a few things that popped up when we got there that weren't agreed apon before moving. They were changed in the contract when we discussed it, but at the time it wasn't known before I moved in.
On September 13 2012 19:43 Samba wrote: "Krupowies showed ESFI a Skype log that had him offering Fuzer the refund of the second month’s fee, but that Fuzer declined to accept it."
Clearly what the chatlog said....lol This MoW-boss is indeed full of shit. He was essentially blackmailing Fuzer! Shut up or you don´t get your money back. Now to work all you sponsor-caller. This time it would actually make sense it seems.
Seriously what is wrong with you guys? Many of the players who come here sacrificed so much to come to this house and to finally have the opportunity to chase the eSports dream, some of them sacrificed even close to everything in their past life, leaving families and friends behind, not having a "normal" life anymore and even coming from a different continent without even being able to speak proper english. But they still did it because they are so passionate about Starcraft2 and eSports that they are willing to do this. The house is full and many players who wanted to come even had to be denied because there are simply no spots anymore. This house is the only of its kind in europe and it gives a lot of players the opportunities they waited for so long time. Do you really think it's that bad if there are so many players applying and every player having been or being in the house except Fuzer has stated a positive opinion about this house. I just can't understand why so many people just want to destroy all of this, this beautiful idea of people gathering together to chase their eSports dream. A gaming-house like this seems like a very risky investment at this moment in europe because noone has every done it before, so we waited a long time until finally someone had the balls to actually risk it. If this house will work out and be a success, there would be a lot more people thinking positive about this idea. I don't understand why so many people want to take this everything down and hurt so many up and coming pro players, who sacrificed everything to chase their dream and to make eSports happen. And i'm not only talking about all the players who are in MoW right now, but about all the potential other houses and ideas that could come up, if this house will be a success. Things got handeled poorly and there has to be something done, but please don't get obsessed with your hatred and destroy everything that people have worked so hard for in eSports
P.S.: There are a lot of incomplete facts in this thread and people jump to conclusion too fast For example: Yes, there are revenue-cuts from the house of the stream. But first, everything is invested into the house, upcoming events and plans to improve this house even more in the future. Second, some people don't have a partnership with twitch yet, which wouldn't make them able to get revenues and third due to the direct partnership with MoW-Twitch partnership the players still make more money including the cuts than with a regular twitch partnership. Also the facts about streaming-amount is incomplete. If people have important tournaments come up, they of course don't have to stream the regular amount of hours (it's all stated in the contract, but i'm not allowed to go into further details). When the first players like Snute and Cytoplasm came to this house, we all talked about this kind of stuff and we worked hand in hand to make this contract player-friendly but at the same time benefical for this house.
quick question: if there are so many incomplete facts that lead people to false conclusions, then why don't the MoW complete the facts and let everybody make up his own mind?
There was several people who were living in house and nobody seems to take into consideration their point of view. Very few of community, takes enough effort to read entire thread and to comment entire thing fairly. What I see when i'm reading this thread is Witch hunt . I've impression that there is some kind of mob behavior here, like in Yemen right now....
EDIT: Please make in mind that i don't want to offend anybody. Just please be that kind to not judge by appearances, and don't be so quick with your conclusions
On September 13 2012 19:57 Rimak wrote: Wait, wait, wait.
So that means that TITAN and other MoW house guests won't be able to train in any other team house, or coach for ten (10!!) years?
This is just sooo absurd. Im really sceptical on the future of MoW.
No they can train and join as player, just not coach or manage in a teamhouse, that's to protect their business ideas, training methods etc.
And that's the utterly ridiculous part.
It's like I'm going to start taking Karate lessons and the fine print says that I can't work in a dojo for 10 years.
Why? Maby players that pratcice there have no plans to open own gaming house . I get your point and your point is better then half ofother post here but , lets dont make angel from fuzer. There was and there is many players in MoW , but only fuzer have some problems with contract..only him. Im not saying that this contract is very good for players (but only this part of 10 years non compete) , but im asking why only fuzer have some problems with MoW ? , other residents are stupid...and only him see the problem.. ? or what.. ?
It always has to be a first time for someone to step back and say "wait a minute WTF is this?".
All of this seems very shady to me, including moving into a gaming house in another country before looking at and deciding whether or not to sign the contract...
On September 13 2012 19:43 Samba wrote: "Krupowies showed ESFI a Skype log that had him offering Fuzer the refund of the second month’s fee, but that Fuzer declined to accept it."
Clearly what the chatlog said....lol This MoW-boss is indeed full of shit. He was essentially blackmailing Fuzer! Shut up or you don´t get your money back. Now to work all you sponsor-caller. This time it would actually make sense it seems.
Seriously what is wrong with you guys? Many of the players who come here sacrificed so much to come to this house and to finally have the opportunity to chase the eSports dream, some of them sacrificed even close to everything in their past life, leaving families and friends behind, not having a "normal" life anymore and even coming from a different continent without even being able to speak proper english. But they still did it because they are so passionate about Starcraft2 and eSports that they are willing to do this. The house is full and many players who wanted to come even had to be denied because there are simply no spots anymore. This house is the only of its kind in europe and it gives a lot of players the opportunities they waited for so long time. Do you really think it's that bad if there are so many players applying and every player having been or being in the house except Fuzer has stated a positive opinion about this house. I just can't understand why so many people just want to destroy all of this, this beautiful idea of people gathering together to chase their eSports dream. A gaming-house like this seems like a very risky investment at this moment in europe because noone has every done it before, so we waited a long time until finally someone had the balls to actually risk it. If this house will work out and be a success, there would be a lot more people thinking positive about this idea. I don't understand why so many people want to take this everything down and hurt so many up and coming pro players, who sacrificed everything to chase their dream and to make eSports happen. And i'm not only talking about all the players who are in MoW right now, but about all the potential other houses and ideas that could come up, if this house will be a success. Things got handeled poorly and there has to be something done, but please don't get obsessed with your hatred and destroy everything that people have worked so hard for in eSports
P.S.: There are a lot of incomplete facts in this thread and people jump to conclusion too fast For example: Yes, there are revenue-cuts from the house of the stream. But first, everything is invested into the house, upcoming events and plans to improve this house even more in the future. Second, some people don't have a partnership with twitch yet, which wouldn't make them able to get revenues and third due to the direct partnership with MoW-Twitch partnership the players still make more money including the cuts than with a regular twitch partnership. Also the facts about streaming-amount is incomplete. If people have important tournaments come up, they of course don't have to stream the regular amount of hours (it's all stated in the contract, but i'm not allowed to go into further details). When the first players like Snute and Cytoplasm came to this house, we all talked about this kind of stuff and we worked hand in hand to make this contract player-friendly but at the same time benefical for this house.
Thanks for the insight. It`s a shame that took u guys so long to appear and start talking. MoW not only handeled the situation poorly but they also treated their defense and their statement poorly. If they had been honest from the very beginning it wouldn`t be that kind of big deal.
On September 13 2012 20:18 Wilko wrote: P.S.: There are a lot of incomplete facts in this thread and people jump to conclusion too fast For example: Yes, there are revenue-cuts from the house of the stream. But first, everything is invested into the house, upcoming events and plans to improve this house even more in the future. Second, some people don't have a partnership with twitch yet, which wouldn't make them able to get revenues and third due to the direct partnership with MoW-Twitch partnership the players still make more money including the cuts than with a regular twitch partnership. Also the facts about streaming-amount is incomplete. If people have important tournaments come up, they of course don't have to stream the regular amount of hours (it's all stated in the contract, but i'm not allowed to go into further details). When the first players like Snute and Cytoplasm came to this house, we all talked about this kind of stuff and we worked hand in hand to make this contract player-friendly but at the same time benefical for this house.
Why is there a required streaming clause in the first place?
Why is there 10 years non-compete clause?
Why are above two disclosed only after a player gets to see his contract? (And in case of Fuzer, only after a player moves in)
Was Fuzer lying about practice schedule? Are coaches, physchologists and massagist available to players?
Why is food so shitty, while what advertised was a specifically designed diet?
Answer these questions, if you want MoW to have any chance of saving their hereto good reputation.
On September 13 2012 20:32 JustPassingBy wrote: quick question: if there are so many incomplete facts that lead people to false conclusions, then why don't the MoW complete the facts and let everybody make up his own mind?
Those kind of contract-details were never meant to be public to begin with like it is with any other contract Having someone signing the NDA and making those details public wasn't supposed to happen and isn't a reason why all the details of the contract should be published. I just wanted to clarify those kind of things, so people have true facts they can make their opionion on, instead of wrong or incomplete ones, which get quoted and believed in all over again
On September 13 2012 19:43 Samba wrote: "Krupowies showed ESFI a Skype log that had him offering Fuzer the refund of the second month’s fee, but that Fuzer declined to accept it."
Clearly what the chatlog said....lol This MoW-boss is indeed full of shit. He was essentially blackmailing Fuzer! Shut up or you don´t get your money back. Now to work all you sponsor-caller. This time it would actually make sense it seems.
Seriously what is wrong with you guys? Many of the players who come here sacrificed so much to come to this house and to finally have the opportunity to chase the eSports dream, some of them sacrificed even close to everything in their past life, leaving families and friends behind, not having a "normal" life anymore and even coming from a different continent without even being able to speak proper english. But they still did it because they are so passionate about Starcraft2 and eSports that they are willing to do this. The house is full and many players who wanted to come even had to be denied because there are simply no spots anymore. This house is the only of its kind in europe and it gives a lot of players the opportunities they waited for so long time. Do you really think it's that bad if there are so many players applying and every player having been or being in the house except Fuzer has stated a positive opinion about this house. I just can't understand why so many people just want to destroy all of this, this beautiful idea of people gathering together to chase their eSports dream. A gaming-house like this seems like a very risky investment at this moment in europe because noone has every done it before, so we waited a long time until finally someone had the balls to actually risk it. If this house will work out and be a success, there would be a lot more people thinking positive about this idea. I don't understand why so many people want to take this everything down and hurt so many up and coming pro players, who sacrificed everything to chase their dream and to make eSports happen. And i'm not only talking about all the players who are in MoW right now, but about all the potential other houses and ideas that could come up, if this house will be a success. Things got handeled poorly and there has to be something done, but please don't get obsessed with your hatred and destroy everything that people have worked so hard for in eSports
P.S.: There are a lot of incomplete facts in this thread and people jump to conclusion too fast For example: Yes, there are revenue-cuts from the house of the stream. But first, everything is invested into the house, upcoming events and plans to improve this house even more in the future. Second, some people don't have a partnership with twitch yet, which wouldn't make them able to get revenues and third due to the direct partnership with MoW-Twitch partnership the players still make more money including the cuts than with a regular twitch partnership. Also the facts about streaming-amount is incomplete. If people have important tournaments come up, they of course don't have to stream the regular amount of hours (it's all stated in the contract, but i'm not allowed to go into further details). When the first players like Snute and Cytoplasm came to this house, we all talked about this kind of stuff and we worked hand in hand to make this contract player-friendly but at the same time benefical for this house.
quick question: if there are so many incomplete facts that lead people to false conclusions, then why don't the MoW complete the facts and let everybody make up his own mind?
maybe beacuase of the NDA they want the players to comply with, so it would be total dickish move if they revealed the contracts themselves? I mean it's pretty obvious, are you people that terrible? You are playing SC, you should be able to make simple thought processes of another person, right?
On September 13 2012 20:18 Wilko wrote: P.S.: There are a lot of incomplete facts in this thread and people jump to conclusion too fast For example: Yes, there are revenue-cuts from the house of the stream. But first, everything is invested into the house, upcoming events and plans to improve this house even more in the future. Second, some people don't have a partnership with twitch yet, which wouldn't make them able to get revenues and third due to the direct partnership with MoW-Twitch partnership the players still make more money including the cuts than with a regular twitch partnership. Also the facts about streaming-amount is incomplete. If people have important tournaments come up, they of course don't have to stream the regular amount of hours (it's all stated in the contract, but i'm not allowed to go into further details). When the first players like Snute and Cytoplasm came to this house, we all talked about this kind of stuff and we worked hand in hand to make this contract player-friendly but at the same time benefical for this house.
Why is there a required streaming clause in the first place?
Why is there 10 years non-compete clause?
Why are above two disclosed only after a player gets to see his contract? (And in case of Fuzer, only after a player moves in)
Was Fuzer lying about practice schedule? Are coaches, physchologists and massagist available to players?
Why is food so shitty, while what advertised was a specifically designed diet?
One more thing to add:
Why did MoW require to see the license of Fuzer's lawyer?
First of all, anybody should have the right to contact a person of his trust, lawyer or not, for legal advice. Especially somebody as young as Fuzer and somebody who is not fluent in the language the contract is written in. Second of all, there are special registers for lawyers where you can inform yourself whether a person really is a lawyer or not. Not to make fun of this whole incident by citing a meme, but: One does not simply ask if somebody is a lawyer.
On September 13 2012 20:18 Wilko wrote: P.S.: There are a lot of incomplete facts in this thread and people jump to conclusion too fast For example: Yes, there are revenue-cuts from the house of the stream. But first, everything is invested into the house, upcoming events and plans to improve this house even more in the future. Second, some people don't have a partnership with twitch yet, which wouldn't make them able to get revenues and third due to the direct partnership with MoW-Twitch partnership the players still make more money including the cuts than with a regular twitch partnership. Also the facts about streaming-amount is incomplete. If people have important tournaments come up, they of course don't have to stream the regular amount of hours (it's all stated in the contract, but i'm not allowed to go into further details). When the first players like Snute and Cytoplasm came to this house, we all talked about this kind of stuff and we worked hand in hand to make this contract player-friendly but at the same time benefical for this house.
Why is there a required streaming clause in the first place?
Why is there 10 years non-compete clause?
Why are above two disclosed only after a player gets to see his contract? (And in case of Fuzer, only after a player moves in)
Was Fuzer lying about practice schedule? Are coaches, physchologists and massagist available to players?
Why is food so shitty, while what advertised was a specifically designed diet?
One more thing to add:
Why did MoW require to see the license of Fuzer's lawyer?
To make sure he is a real lawyer so he is bind not to publish the details of the contract?
On September 13 2012 20:32 JustPassingBy wrote: quick question: if there are so many incomplete facts that lead people to false conclusions, then why don't the MoW complete the facts and let everybody make up his own mind?
Those kind of contract-details were never meant to be public to begin with like it is with any other contract Having someone signing the NDA and making those details public wasn't supposed to happen and isn't a reason why all the details of the contract should be published. I just wanted to clarify those kind of things, so people have true facts they can make their opionion on, instead of wrong or incomplete ones, which get quoted and believed in all over again
Sorry if the following question is a bit ignorant, I am not well versed in these business matters: Why isn't it a reason to publish all details of Fuzer's contract? If MoW really just wants the best for the players who pursue their dream as they repeatedly state in their press releases, then they could just publish the contract and the all readers will realize that whatever Fuzer said is bullshit. Everything will be resolved with one move and it will prevent other people from lying about the conditions in MoW.
@Willko: If there are questinable or not legitimate phrases in the contract, it should not be a problem to contest it, and have ACCESS to the contract before signing it. God, i work at burgerking, and you can take the contract home before signing it. How is it possible that Fuzer did not have his contract?
On September 13 2012 20:18 Wilko wrote: P.S.: There are a lot of incomplete facts in this thread and people jump to conclusion too fast For example: Yes, there are revenue-cuts from the house of the stream. But first, everything is invested into the house, upcoming events and plans to improve this house even more in the future. Second, some people don't have a partnership with twitch yet, which wouldn't make them able to get revenues and third due to the direct partnership with MoW-Twitch partnership the players still make more money including the cuts than with a regular twitch partnership. Also the facts about streaming-amount is incomplete. If people have important tournaments come up, they of course don't have to stream the regular amount of hours (it's all stated in the contract, but i'm not allowed to go into further details). When the first players like Snute and Cytoplasm came to this house, we all talked about this kind of stuff and we worked hand in hand to make this contract player-friendly but at the same time benefical for this house.
Why is there a required streaming clause in the first place?
Why is there 10 years non-compete clause?
Why are above two disclosed only after a player gets to see his contract? (And in case of Fuzer, only after a player moves in)
Was Fuzer lying about practice schedule? Are coaches, physchologists and massagist available to players?
Why is food so shitty, while what advertised was a specifically designed diet?
One more thing to add:
Why did MoW require to see the license of Fuzer's lawyer?
To make sure he is a real lawyer so he is bind not to publish the details of the contract?
It's not MoW's job to make sure the players uphold the NDA. Thats actually the whole point of the NDA - so they dont have to monitor constantly if someone is allowed to see the things protected by the NDA. If he releases it to a non-lawyer he broke the NDA. Now they can act.
On September 13 2012 20:32 JustPassingBy wrote: quick question: if there are so many incomplete facts that lead people to false conclusions, then why don't the MoW complete the facts and let everybody make up his own mind?
Those kind of contract-details were never meant to be public to begin with like it is with any other contract Having someone signing the NDA and making those details public wasn't supposed to happen and isn't a reason why all the details of the contract should be published. I just wanted to clarify those kind of things, so people have true facts they can make their opionion on, instead of wrong or incomplete ones, which get quoted and believed in all over again
Sorry if the following question is a bit ignorant, I am not well versed in these business matters: Why isn't it a reason to publish all details of Fuzer's contract? If MoW really just wants the best for the players who pursue their dream as they repeatedly state in their press releases, then they could just publish the contract and the all readers will realize that whatever Fuzer said is bullshit. Everything will be resolved with one move and it will prevent other people from lying about the conditions in MoW.
You dont publish details of a contract. Ever. That's just the way it is.
On September 13 2012 20:18 Wilko wrote: P.S.: There are a lot of incomplete facts in this thread and people jump to conclusion too fast For example: Yes, there are revenue-cuts from the house of the stream. But first, everything is invested into the house, upcoming events and plans to improve this house even more in the future. Second, some people don't have a partnership with twitch yet, which wouldn't make them able to get revenues and third due to the direct partnership with MoW-Twitch partnership the players still make more money including the cuts than with a regular twitch partnership. Also the facts about streaming-amount is incomplete. If people have important tournaments come up, they of course don't have to stream the regular amount of hours (it's all stated in the contract, but i'm not allowed to go into further details). When the first players like Snute and Cytoplasm came to this house, we all talked about this kind of stuff and we worked hand in hand to make this contract player-friendly but at the same time benefical for this house.
Why is there a required streaming clause in the first place?
Why is there 10 years non-compete clause?
Why are above two disclosed only after a player gets to see his contract? (And in case of Fuzer, only after a player moves in)
Was Fuzer lying about practice schedule? Are coaches, physchologists and massagist available to players?
Why is food so shitty, while what advertised was a specifically designed diet?
One more thing to add:
Why did MoW require to see the license of Fuzer's lawyer?
To make sure he is a real lawyer so he is bind not to publish the details of the contract?
Did you quote my post incomplete on purpose? In the following paragraph you left out, I explain why I think that move is not very professional. Here are the reasons again: 1. Everybody has the right to consult a person of his or her trust for legal advice (on a sidenote: Fuzer is still quite young and he is not fluent in the language the contract was written in) 2. Every country I know of have a central register for all lawyers. Normal procedure to verify whether somebody is a lawyer would be to look into that register instead of asking that person for a license personally.
On September 13 2012 20:32 JustPassingBy wrote: quick question: if there are so many incomplete facts that lead people to false conclusions, then why don't the MoW complete the facts and let everybody make up his own mind?
Those kind of contract-details were never meant to be public to begin with like it is with any other contract Having someone signing the NDA and making those details public wasn't supposed to happen and isn't a reason why all the details of the contract should be published. I just wanted to clarify those kind of things, so people have true facts they can make their opionion on, instead of wrong or incomplete ones, which get quoted and believed in all over again
Sorry if the following question is a bit ignorant, I am not well versed in these business matters: Why isn't it a reason to publish all details of Fuzer's contract? If MoW really just wants the best for the players who pursue their dream as they repeatedly state in their press releases, then they could just publish the contract and the all readers will realize that whatever Fuzer said is bullshit. Everything will be resolved with one move and it will prevent other people from lying about the conditions in MoW.
You dont publish details of a contract. Ever. That's just the way it is.
If that is the case, then they should not complain about people jumping to conclusions because of incomplete information, especially not on the internet where there is a strong mentality that every information should be publically available. I want to stress out again, that the point above is the one bugging me. They hold information back and at the same time complain that people jump to false conclusions because of incomplete information. Now I am no lawyer, but as a mathematician I can say that there is some contradiction in their actions.
EPT
