On September 13 2012 20:18 Wilko wrote: P.S.: There are a lot of incomplete facts in this thread and people jump to conclusion too fast For example: Yes, there are revenue-cuts from the house of the stream. But first, everything is invested into the house, upcoming events and plans to improve this house even more in the future. Second, some people don't have a partnership with twitch yet, which wouldn't make them able to get revenues and third due to the direct partnership with MoW-Twitch partnership the players still make more money including the cuts than with a regular twitch partnership. Also the facts about streaming-amount is incomplete. If people have important tournaments come up, they of course don't have to stream the regular amount of hours (it's all stated in the contract, but i'm not allowed to go into further details). When the first players like Snute and Cytoplasm came to this house, we all talked about this kind of stuff and we worked hand in hand to make this contract player-friendly but at the same time benefical for this house.
Why is there a required streaming clause in the first place?
Why is there 10 years non-compete clause?
Why are above two disclosed only after a player gets to see his contract? (And in case of Fuzer, only after a player moves in)
Was Fuzer lying about practice schedule? Are coaches, physchologists and massagist available to players?
Why is food so shitty, while what advertised was a specifically designed diet?
One more thing to add:
Why did MoW require to see the license of Fuzer's lawyer?
To make sure he is a real lawyer so he is bind not to publish the details of the contract?
Still doesn't make sense. They showed the contract to Fuzer and he could have disclosed its content because he didn't sign any NDA beforehand. That's the reason why in cases where contract details remain a secret you sign a separate NDA beforehand and THEN show people the contract. "I won't disclose information regarding the contents of the contract offered to me blabla", it wouldn't even fill a page in legal-lingo. It's not hard to do, it just wasn't done and then they tried to somehow protect their bad practice. This kind of thing doesn't go over well with people. It also adds to the perception that the contract is so horrible and legally unsound that they don't want to show it to anyone who could ever disclose it. Even my contract, which includes NDA and NCC, wasn't subject to this kind of thing and I have WAY bigger incentive to abuse my information.
You have to pay 600 and then have to stream for 5 hours a day and split revenu from that? It looks ok if the players gets a full income in return for playing thoose 5 hours a day but they dont get monney for that,they have to pay another 600 on top of that? realy weird:s Guess its needed to run the house but does that need to cost that much?? its only a house with an internet connection and a few pc,s . its nothing realy special:s 10 years not allowed to join other game house is just silly, you see such things in contracts with engineers who work at verry high lvl developping new products, but in sc?? it just seems absurd lol.
Annyway:would love to see you stream more fuzer ,<3 you! Hope things work out ok
That seems just disgusting, I dont know what to think about MoW anymore, just so unprofessional. And the conditions in the house...seriously? Who in the earth would pay for that if they had known what they have stepped in to? No way I could live with that food or amount of food, and cant even sleep at nights. First the players pay them so much and they dont care of anything.
Those interviews in the Press Release looked kind of forced and odd, lol.
Have the other players commented this? Or anyone else who can confirm this true? Well not assuming the players would confirm those even though if they agreed, still staying in the house and keeping everyone happy(:D). But before that, Im not gonna judge them more, because there can be many different point of views and Fuzer's one is just one of those.
people just need to hear ''they stole my money'' to make a shitty post without even thinking about it ,so sad, its still kinda shady so i leave no comment on this except that it should be cleared out very soon or it will hurt esports and especially MoW no matter wether fuzer is a dick or they just fucked up.
On September 13 2012 19:13 MapleFractal wrote: Loving all these >20 posters coming out of the woodwork to make their TL debut. Finally the lurkers are heard... Or smurf accounts to make it seem less scumbag. This whole thing is suspect... But the damage is clearly done.
I agree, but I think you got the sign backwards.. right now, it reads "greater than 20"
Why is there a required streaming clause in the first place?
Why is there 10 years non-compete clause?
Why are above two disclosed only after a player gets to see his contract? (And in case of Fuzer, only after a player moves in)
Was Fuzer lying about practice schedule? Are coaches, physchologists and massagist available to players?
Why is food so shitty, while what advertised was a specifically designed diet?
Why was Fuzer not allowed to consult details of contract with his lawyer? You had no legal grounds to ask for lawyers license.
Sorry Inori. Your questions are kinda funny. I don`t have anything in favor or against MoW. But it`s not that hard to answer them.
1 A Contract is a binding between two persons. It doesn`t matter why there is a clause for required streaming. If one accept to sign it it should be ruled by that, period. If you don`t like the clause just don`t sign the contract and don`t move to the house. (on this matter i do understand that there was a colossal error from MoW AND Fuzer to not get the contract before moving or even before paying)
2 Same as above. (I do think both clauses are shitty, wouldn`t stand in a court and does not benefit "esports" at all but again if you are ok with it you sign it, if you aren`t just don`t move)
3 This is the colossal mistake both parties involved made. Fuzer should never have moved there without seeing. 4 and 5 i will leave for them
6 If the contracts DO have an NDA clause (and they might have) you can`t send the contract to everyone just because you want to. It`s ok to ask for the documents veryfing that he is a lawyer and that he is Fuzer`s legal lawyer.
On September 13 2012 19:43 Samba wrote: "Krupowies showed ESFI a Skype log that had him offering Fuzer the refund of the second month’s fee, but that Fuzer declined to accept it."
Clearly what the chatlog said....lol This MoW-boss is indeed full of shit. He was essentially blackmailing Fuzer! Shut up or you don´t get your money back. Now to work all you sponsor-caller. This time it would actually make sense it seems.
Seriously what is wrong with you guys? Many of the players who come here sacrificed so much to come to this house and to finally have the opportunity to chase the eSports dream, some of them sacrificed even close to everything in their past life, leaving families and friends behind, not having a "normal" life anymore and even coming from a different continent without even being able to speak proper english. But they still did it because they are so passionate about Starcraft2 and eSports that they are willing to do this. The house is full and many players who wanted to come even had to be denied because there are simply no spots anymore. This house is the only of its kind in europe and it gives a lot of players the opportunities they waited for so long time. Do you really think it's that bad if there are so many players applying and every player having been or being in the house except Fuzer has stated a positive opinion about this house. I just can't understand why so many people just want to destroy all of this, this beautiful idea of people gathering together to chase their eSports dream. A gaming-house like this seems like a very risky investment at this moment in europe because noone has every done it before, so we waited a long time until finally someone had the balls to actually risk it. If this house will work out and be a success, there would be a lot more people thinking positive about this idea. I don't understand why so many people want to take this everything down and hurt so many up and coming pro players, who sacrificed everything to chase their dream and to make eSports happen. And i'm not only talking about all the players who are in MoW right now, but about all the potential other houses and ideas that could come up, if this house will be a success. Things got handeled poorly and there has to be something done, but please don't get obsessed with your hatred and destroy everything that people have worked so hard for in eSports
P.S.: There are a lot of incomplete facts in this thread and people jump to conclusion too fast For example: Yes, there are revenue-cuts from the house of the stream. But first, everything is invested into the house, upcoming events and plans to improve this house even more in the future. Second, some people don't have a partnership with twitch yet, which wouldn't make them able to get revenues and third due to the direct partnership with MoW-Twitch partnership the players still make more money including the cuts than with a regular twitch partnership. Also the facts about streaming-amount is incomplete. If people have important tournaments come up, they of course don't have to stream the regular amount of hours (it's all stated in the contract, but i'm not allowed to go into further details). When the first players like Snute and Cytoplasm came to this house, we all talked about this kind of stuff and we worked hand in hand to make this contract player-friendly but at the same time benefical for this house.
People should read this^ Sadly, i think most people in here already made their minds, and they on a "burn everything you see" mission.
Facts: 1. Great idea, first in Europe 2. Making contracts together with players, so both parties are happy 3. Trying to improve the house all the time, working with players 4. Players are really happy, they say MoW is great, more people wants to come, hell - even Destiny from USA. And Destiny is not a guy who decides to go crazy one day and travels to Europe. 5. One guy had a disagreement and he misinterpreted certain points in contract (about streaming cut and 10yrs clousure) 6. Normally everywhere in the world you pay in advance. You rent a room - you pay for a month on the first. You leave on 5th, it's NORMAL your money is gone. Because is has to be fair for other party too - if you leave it's not like other person will come the next day. Especially not with MoW. So if they give the money back - they are at loss here. 7. After the guy wrote they STOLE his money, they still offered to give it back. 8. Guy decided to not accept it and go for a war instead. 10. Guy posts on TL. 11. TL decided to skip logic and go witch-hunt. 12. MoW screws their PR. 13. TL goes even more crazy. 14. Past and current players, and some other people try to cool things down, telling it's not that bad, there was no bad will intended, that's it's just problem with communication and misunderstanding. 15. No one listens anymore, witch hunt has begun. There are email to sponsors being sent, telling how MoW is a criminal organization and how teams should pull their players out of there.
Is that how you want to see your loved game and esport developing? One mistake, bad communication and you throw one of the greatest ideas to mud. And then spill on it. Everyone should work to make this situation as little salt in the wound as possible. Both parties made mistakes, MoW clearly said that - they wanted to make it easier on players and let them come before signing contract, but it turned on to be a mistake. Shit happens, now they know not to do it again. But apparently going drama mode is better.
So many people say great things about this house, but some completely uninvolved people from other part of the world know better - it's a shady organization, and it should be put down.
Congratulations TL. Give yourself a round of applause.
I hope that paying doesn't bound you in anyway to them. It just seems weird to pay before having signed a contract that you then decide to not sign. This would mean that you would have a verbal contract on the original vague terms as they accepted that money(pay money to stay in the house more or less with no other hidden conditions...). But I'm not a lawyer so I may be wrong.
Only in esports you have to pay someone to work, that 5 hours streaming requirment with split revenue is a joke if u actully pay someone to live there.
On September 13 2012 20:39 Inori wrote:Why is there a required streaming clause in the first place?
It's simply how this house as a business is working. With streams you get more exposure and therefore more sponsors
On September 13 2012 20:39 Inori wrote:Why is there 10 years non-compete clause?
It's common business method, admittably quite long tho, especially for eSports, but every player has to make up their mind about this before joining and also it is not stated like this in the actual contract as it was stated the OP's post, i can't go into any more detail here
On September 13 2012 20:39 Inori wrote:Why are above two disclosed only after a player gets to see his contract? (And in case of Fuzer, only after a player moves in)
They aren't, every player who demands to see the contract before moving in can see those details. In Fuzer's case, he didn't care about the contract or the practice schedule, when he came to this house. He just wanted to pay the money and live here to train in his pace and way. But this is just not how this house works, with so many players in the house there has to be house-rules that have to be respected to make everything work out smoothly and to prevent problems that are preventing players from having the best training opportunities possible
On September 13 2012 20:39 Inori wrote:Was Fuzer lying about practice schedule? Are coaches, physchologists and massagist available to players?
There is a practice schedule, containing a seperate time for custom-games with other people in the house and online practice partners, a seperate time for laddering and a seperate time for playing cups. But this exact playing schedule is more like a suggestion from the house and players have the freedom to choose, if they want to stick with it or change it up to their likes, the actual training amount is mandatory tho. We have a very competent coach, who works a lot with the players, if they approach him and want to improve in this way. The psychologist didn't arrive yet, but it's said to happen very soon and i didn't hear about anything about a massagist
On September 13 2012 20:39 Inori wrote:Why is food so shitty, while what advertised was a specifically designed diet?
The food is not shitty, it's quite often healthy food, with some exceptions, the food matches what was advertised before and it is enough food (there might have been some shortcuts due to misscalculation of the amount of new palyers and how much they eat, but it got sorted out). A problem is that many players chose to stay up very late and we don't have any kind of midnight-dish, which the house isn't obligied to provide, but we are already working on a solution
On September 13 2012 20:39 Inori wrote:Why was Fuzer not allowed to consult details of contract with his lawyer? You had no legal grounds to ask for lawyers license
As far as i know he was allowed, but it was a matter of time passed and there was a deadline. I don't know any more details about this, it's a personal matter between Fuzer and the MoW
On September 13 2012 20:46 JustPassingBy wrote: Why did MoW require to see the license of Fuzer's lawyer?
I think it might have been a matter of trust after a disrespecting and violating the house rules, but it's only speculation. i don't have more insight
Why is there a required streaming clause in the first place?
Why is there 10 years non-compete clause?
Why are above two disclosed only after a player gets to see his contract? (And in case of Fuzer, only after a player moves in)
Was Fuzer lying about practice schedule? Are coaches, physchologists and massagist available to players?
Why is food so shitty, while what advertised was a specifically designed diet?
Why was Fuzer not allowed to consult details of contract with his lawyer? You had no legal grounds to ask for lawyers license.
Sorry Inori. Your questions are kinda funny. I don`t have anything in favor or against MoW. But it`s not that hard to answer them.
1 A Contract is a binding between two persons. It doesn`t matter why there is a clause for required streaming. If one accept to sign it it should be ruled by that, period. If you don`t like the clause just don`t sign the contract and don`t move to the house. (on this matter i do understand that there was a colossal error from MoW AND Fuzer to not get the contract before moving or even before paying)
2 Same as above. (I do think both clauses are shitty, wouldn`t stand in a court and does not benefit "esports" at all but again if you are ok with it you sign it, if you aren`t just don`t move)
3 This is the colossal mistake both parties involved made. Fuzer should never have moved there without seeing. 4 and 5 i will leave for them
6 If the contracts DO have an NDA clause (and they might have) you can`t send the contract to everyone just because you want to. It`s ok to ask for the documents veryfing that he is a lawyer and that he is Fuzer`s legal lawyer.
Inori's questions are totally reasonable. Fuzer is the client, being sent the contract before hand is not his responsibility. I understand the streaming clause benefits both parties but again it needs to be disclosed before you move in and hand over your money. I certainly wouldn't expect my paid training to be streamed. Diet complaint seems very reasonable also, fried food is certainly not a specifically designed diet for optimal performance as advertised.
Tbh, after reading through everything. It's not the MoW who looks like a spoilt child.
Nothing MoW has done here seems at all out of order, the 10 year rule is a bit sketchy but tbh there are sketchy things in every contract (check your own employment contracts, I'm sure there are things in there that you wouldn't be 100% happy with)
The purpose of a contract is to protect both parties involved, but to ignore an NDA because you decided they weren't stapled together and signed on every page O_o reeks of childishness. Consider yourself a "professional" ? I bet sponsors will be just queueing up with sponsorships and contracts, so you can turn around and talk crap about their products.
On September 13 2012 20:18 Wilko wrote: P.S.: There are a lot of incomplete facts in this thread and people jump to conclusion too fast For example: Yes, there are revenue-cuts from the house of the stream. But first, everything is invested into the house, upcoming events and plans to improve this house even more in the future. Second, some people don't have a partnership with twitch yet, which wouldn't make them able to get revenues and third due to the direct partnership with MoW-Twitch partnership the players still make more money including the cuts than with a regular twitch partnership. Also the facts about streaming-amount is incomplete. If people have important tournaments come up, they of course don't have to stream the regular amount of hours (it's all stated in the contract, but i'm not allowed to go into further details). When the first players like Snute and Cytoplasm came to this house, we all talked about this kind of stuff and we worked hand in hand to make this contract player-friendly but at the same time benefical for this house.
Why is there a required streaming clause in the first place?
Why is there 10 years non-compete clause?
Why are above two disclosed only after a player gets to see his contract? (And in case of Fuzer, only after a player moves in)
Was Fuzer lying about practice schedule? Are coaches, physchologists and massagist available to players?
Why is food so shitty, while what advertised was a specifically designed diet?
One more thing to add:
Why did MoW require to see the license of Fuzer's lawyer?
To make sure he is a real lawyer so he is bind not to publish the details of the contract?
That is none of MoW's business. The NDA applies to Fuzer only, and it's his responsibility to only share information with a lawyer.
On September 13 2012 20:39 Inori wrote:Why is there 10 years non-compete clause? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's common business method, admittably quite long tho, especially for eSports
10 years not compete is completely rediculous, i dont understand how anny player can accept such a condition, Maybe because of competition they feel they have to, so manny players want become pro, only so few spots available. Maybe teams abuse this fact, i dont know. You dont see such conditions in other sports for example, soccer players and and the like are free to move annywhere after their contract expired. (also i doubt what this exactly means btw, as i see manny sc players switching teams all the time, so this clause is not that common or it has no practical meaning for manny players) So where do you find such conditions? only in corporate life and then mostly with people who work on developping new products and technologys None of these aply for the team house situation, this 10 years non compete clause realy is absurd and players should protest against it.
I don't get how people can argue that a 10 year NCC is in any way a reasonable thing to have in this kind of contract. It's not even compensated (aka it would probably fail regardless of wording and time frame) and just proves one thing:
They aspire to be super duper professional, having contracts that cover everything and protecting their "extremely innovative" business (has never been done before...except like back in 2000?). I give them credit for trying all this, it takes effort and dedication. I'm not calling them evil scammers (although the price range suggests it, I'm not familiar with the costs they have to cover). The problem is that while doing all this they went way overboard and screwed it up big time. That would not be a problem if they showed very professional conduct but given even the way the manager interacted with Fuzer via Skype this is not the case at all. You don't ask for a lawyer's license, you look it up in the register, that's what professionals do. You don't put shit into your contract when you know it's unreasonable and not legally sound. You don't pressure people into crazy NDAs when there's close to no sensitive information to be disclosed. You don't create a situation where you present a contract after the fact, but most important of all: you don't do this shit to CLIENTS who pay for a service you provide. What the actual fuck is that. That's like making me sign a document stating I won't build my own car when I buy one just because you let me change some specifications and it was built to order. Outrageous...
On September 13 2012 20:39 Inori wrote:Why are above two disclosed only after a player gets to see his contract? (And in case of Fuzer, only after a player moves in)
They aren't, every player who demands to see the contract before moving in can see those details. In Fuzer's case, he didn't care about the contract or the practice schedule, when he came to this house. He just wanted to pay the money and live here to train in his pace and way. But this is just not how this house works, with so many players in the house there has to be house-rules that have to be respected to make everything work out smoothly and to prevent problems that are preventing players from having the best training opportunities possible
Thank you, exactly what I needed to hear. He didn't care about your business practice before actually moving in, his loss in my opinion. Sad to see you guys take so much flack from this.
EPT
