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What is key to being a Good Caster - Page 9

Forum Index > SC2 General
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Chimpalimp
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1135 Posts
September 03 2012 17:13 GMT
#161
My biggest pet peeve when it comes to casting is over using statistical tools.
ex:
SC2: The unit/production/income tabs.
Dota 2: The exp/gold graphs

If you need the graph to tell you what is going on then you are doing nothing for me as a caster, you are literally just restating the obvious. Since most casters are now just shoutcasters, instead of analysts, they overuse the living hell out of statistical tools instead of just breaking down the game.
I like money. You like money too? We should hang out.
emythrel
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United Kingdom2599 Posts
September 03 2012 17:15 GMT
#162
On September 03 2012 17:31 Dagan159 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 03 2012 17:25 ROOTT1 wrote:
all i want is a knowledgeable caster, he could be driest person on the planet for all i care. HIGH LVL ANALYSIS PLZ!


TT1. Yes, for you perhaps the most high level analysis possible is preferable, but if you want to grow esports then you are going to have to accept what the republican party has begun to realize: we need to grow the middle class.


and TT1 wants to grow sc2 in the same way the republicans want to grow the middle class..... fuck the noobs/poor and let the rich/best have anything they want ;p
When there is nothing left to lose but your dignity, it is already gone.
Trizz
Profile Joined June 2010
Netherlands1318 Posts
September 03 2012 17:36 GMT
#163
Knowing what you're talking about.
nope
TotalBiscuit
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United Kingdom5437 Posts
September 03 2012 18:00 GMT
#164
On September 04 2012 00:37 Dontkillme wrote:
I seriously don't like threads like this. It feels like we are judging these casters while we get free commentary. No wonder tasteless doesn't come on TL. Too judgmental. The community seriously needs to stop being so judgmental about the casters who were hired by people smarter than us and need to let these casters breathe


Oh don't worry, we absolutely love being constantly shit on, even accused of "killing esports". We especially enjoy it after coming off a 16 hour cast, so everyone make sure to post that stuff then!

o_o
CommentatorHost of SHOUTcraft Clan Wars- http://www.mlg.tv/shoutcraft
Dosey
Profile Joined September 2010
United States4505 Posts
September 03 2012 18:14 GMT
#165
On September 03 2012 17:13 Liquid`Ret wrote:
I have been watching starcraft and starcraft 2 for an extremely long time and I almost feel like the casting is getting worse and worse across the board. There are a few exceptions like Apollo, Rotterdam/MrBitter, Artosis (although he was much better a year ago) but with the other ones you can tell they almost never play the game anymore or never have played to begin with.

Starcraft is a beautiful game. There is a very large group of players who have great mechanics and practice a lot, so their builds are very polished and they can all beat each other on any given day. Still some players do better than others, there is a huge mental aspect to the game and slight changes in builds or playstyles that can make all the difference and this is what makes starcraft matches so fun to watch. .

Unfortunately, most casters are not very good at all at recognizing patterns or changes in the metagame, or builds. Infact there are so many occasions where casters who are newbies at the game, judge players and berate them for their mistakes, while they actually don't have a clue what is going on. Of course mistakes are much easier to point out than those little things players change in their play or the mind games that are going on at the top level. But these are the things that make starcraft a brilliant game to watch and follow. I feel like if we had professional casters who actually put the time and effort into delivering the best performance possible, the audience would come much closer to be able to experience starcraft in the same way that progamers experience it. With all the little nuances, mind games, and reasons why someone is doing what they're doing being analyzed and clearly explained.

When I listen to a cast and would be unable to see the screen, I would feel like sc2 is a random slugfest with 2 guys just throwing units at each other. Every game feels the same, and one guy wins at the end. This actually makes Starcraft much less appealing to new people or people who are actually looking for depth, not cheap entertainment. Of course this is exaggerated, but it's still sad to me that there is so little actual skill and knowledge amongst casters. I really hope that eventually (sooner the better) we can go to a model where there is one person doing play by plays and coloring the cast, and one progamer or ex-progamer (who still keeps up his skill and knowledge of all the recent trends) doing analytical casting. We saw some of this when Grubby was casting with apollo/kalearis and TLO/apollo at assembly (and these guys have barely practiced casting). The current casters are actually not helping Starcraft 2 grow in my opinion, they just live off their initial fame and because of how e-sports works twitter followers and popularity is more important than quality, substance. I believe Starcraft 2 is a good enough game to keep people interested, as long as the skill on the screen is translated and well delivered to the audience.

p.s sorry kinda off-topic, but felt like writing my opinion


It's a shame that there's no real threat of competition for the current casters. The up and comers have even less knowledge than the current top dogs and the pros most likely don't want to abandon their dream just yet. If we had even just a little competition from the pros, we just might see their complacent attitudes disappear as they worked harder to put out better casting and maintain their jobs.
K3Nyy
Profile Joined February 2010
United States1961 Posts
September 03 2012 18:16 GMT
#166
What makes a good caster is their knowledge and insight of the game as well as their passion for the game in my opinion. This is why I feel like progamers always make the best casters.

Play by play casters are good for the newbies I guess, but in order for the game to become more popular, we need more in-depth casters that show the audience more of what's going on in the game besides what they on the surface. Day9, Artosis, Apollo and Bitterdam immediately jump to mind as well as the players that casted at HSC.
Landriss
Profile Joined April 2012
France10 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-03 18:28:38
September 03 2012 18:25 GMT
#167
On September 04 2012 03:16 K3Nyy wrote:
What makes a good caster is their knowledge and insight of the game as well as their passion for the game in my opinion. This is why I feel like progamers always make the best casters.

Play by play casters are good for the newbies I guess, but in order for the game to become more popular, we need more in-depth casters that show the audience more of what's going on in the game besides what they on the surface. Day9, Artosis, Apollo and Bitterdam immediately jump to mind as well as the players that casted at HSC.



So you're saying that in order for Starcraft 2 to become more popular, we need casters that adress the needs of people ALREADY watching the game ? How does that make the game more popular ?

Also, sorry but, although it is fun to see players cast once in a while, most of them can't afford to take the time to do it outside of a tournament like HSC. And let's be honest, it's fun but if you take away MaNA (does cast well but speak a bit too fast in my opinion), IdrA (who has a bit of a casting experience with EG) TLO and Ret (not quite there yet but their casting is improving TLO was cool at ASUS ROG), the players we saw casting at HSCV were really boring. They did say some interesting things, but there was no intensity in the games and it just wasn't fun in the long run. (Tarson casting is cool but would you pick him to cast a whole tournament?)
stew_
Profile Joined June 2012
Canada239 Posts
September 03 2012 18:34 GMT
#168
On September 04 2012 03:14 Dosey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 03 2012 17:13 Liquid`Ret wrote:
I have been watching starcraft and starcraft 2 for an extremely long time and I almost feel like the casting is getting worse and worse across the board. There are a few exceptions like Apollo, Rotterdam/MrBitter, Artosis (although he was much better a year ago) but with the other ones you can tell they almost never play the game anymore or never have played to begin with.

Starcraft is a beautiful game. There is a very large group of players who have great mechanics and practice a lot, so their builds are very polished and they can all beat each other on any given day. Still some players do better than others, there is a huge mental aspect to the game and slight changes in builds or playstyles that can make all the difference and this is what makes starcraft matches so fun to watch. .

Unfortunately, most casters are not very good at all at recognizing patterns or changes in the metagame, or builds. Infact there are so many occasions where casters who are newbies at the game, judge players and berate them for their mistakes, while they actually don't have a clue what is going on. Of course mistakes are much easier to point out than those little things players change in their play or the mind games that are going on at the top level. But these are the things that make starcraft a brilliant game to watch and follow. I feel like if we had professional casters who actually put the time and effort into delivering the best performance possible, the audience would come much closer to be able to experience starcraft in the same way that progamers experience it. With all the little nuances, mind games, and reasons why someone is doing what they're doing being analyzed and clearly explained.

When I listen to a cast and would be unable to see the screen, I would feel like sc2 is a random slugfest with 2 guys just throwing units at each other. Every game feels the same, and one guy wins at the end. This actually makes Starcraft much less appealing to new people or people who are actually looking for depth, not cheap entertainment. Of course this is exaggerated, but it's still sad to me that there is so little actual skill and knowledge amongst casters. I really hope that eventually (sooner the better) we can go to a model where there is one person doing play by plays and coloring the cast, and one progamer or ex-progamer (who still keeps up his skill and knowledge of all the recent trends) doing analytical casting. We saw some of this when Grubby was casting with apollo/kalearis and TLO/apollo at assembly (and these guys have barely practiced casting). The current casters are actually not helping Starcraft 2 grow in my opinion, they just live off their initial fame and because of how e-sports works twitter followers and popularity is more important than quality, substance. I believe Starcraft 2 is a good enough game to keep people interested, as long as the skill on the screen is translated and well delivered to the audience.

p.s sorry kinda off-topic, but felt like writing my opinion


It's a shame that there's no real threat of competition for the current casters. The up and comers have even less knowledge than the current top dogs and the pros most likely don't want to abandon their dream just yet. If we had even just a little competition from the pros, we just might see their complacent attitudes disappear as they worked harder to put out better casting and maintain their jobs.


There is actually, the korean casters do a fantastic job of really high level analysis during games... especially during gsl and proleague/osl.
자연속에 내가 있다! 운!지!
Kasu
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom345 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-03 18:36:06
September 03 2012 18:35 GMT
#169
I would like to see casters making an effort to improve their diction. Proper speech (for me) adds a lot of professionalism and is a big part of what separates eSports casters from casters of established sports. Casters' lapsing into the same tired, grammatically-dubious and low-vocabulary speech patterns game after game makes me get tired of them fast.

Its also why I am a huuuge fan of Grubby's casting - not only does he have great insight but he is really articulate.
Sirrush
Profile Joined May 2011
Netherlands165 Posts
September 03 2012 18:52 GMT
#170
A lot of it, for me, depends on how casters fill time during the early phases of the game and slow moments. I think it is incredibly annoying when casters fill time with completely unrelated drivel and I'd much rather see the casters talk about the two players. Give me some statistics, tell me how they've done against their opponents race lately, let me know what builds they prefer on these maps. For GSL this is now something partially done by the production team, but across the board it is severely lacking. Instead of this, we get some completely irrelevant story about how Khaldor had trouble getting on the subway, or whatever and that just annoys the hell out of me.

I absolutely love high level analysis. Listening to pros explain why someone is doing x or building y, I love that. I love finding out the reason why they do things the way they do. That is sorely lacking, too. I mean yes, you have the likes of Apollo and Artosis who are probably most up to speed on the meta, but usually I don't feel like they grasp the subtleties either.
Words.
empty.bottle
Profile Joined July 2009
685 Posts
September 03 2012 18:55 GMT
#171
where's apollo? he's the best zzz
virpi
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Germany3598 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-03 19:04:44
September 03 2012 19:03 GMT
#172
I totally agree with ret's post. The tournament that I enjoy the most out of all is the homestory cup, because there you actually get casters, who are able to provide very interesting insights into the players' minds, the metagame, and the little psychological mindgames. I'm not a very good player, but I know the game well enough to see what's going on on the screen, so I don't need somebody, who's describing that to me. I love casters, whose understanding of the game allows them to focus on the really important elements of a game. That's why I think that Apollo is one of the best casters out there - not only he's an amazing player, he's also very articulate. Sometimes his calls are off, but let's be honest: In a volatile game like SC2, it's just impossible to judge any given situation correctly.

I don't want to be rude and I also respect people like DjWheat for what they're doing for e-sports in general, but I think that the whole scene would benefit from less "wohooo nice fungal / forcefield / guardian shield" (yes, I've actually heard casters scream "nice guardian shield"). Less shouting, more analysis. Less self-promoting, more focus on what the players are doing.

But it's also important that the community allows new casters to enter the scenery. Personally, I'm very happy, when I see a new face casting: the more competition, the better.

It's also very cool to see that Khaldor is getting more and more knowledgable, his casting has improved a lot during the last few months. On the other hand, I've got the feeling that Day9's casting has seen better days, but maybe that's just my personal impression. On the last few occasions I've listened to him, his whole performance was full of redundancies, though.

I know that some people are saying that analytical casting might scare away noobs, but let's be honest: Someone talking about nice guardian shields won't really help a noob understanding the game. New players are overwhelmed by the information they see on the screen anyway, so they automatically are focusing on the obvious things: Who's got the bigger army? Who's got more bases? Who's got more workers? I think that people are intelligent enough to figure out the elemental aspects of the game by themselves. A good analytical (yet passionate) caster can help them on their journey to finally get a grasp on the machinery behind the obvious information.
first we make expand, then we defense it.
Kuni
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Austria765 Posts
September 03 2012 19:14 GMT
#173
If you watch a tournament and have apollo, artosis or even bitterdam predict something that's gonna happen within the next few minutes of the game and while they are explaining the reasons behind it, pointing out how awesome the player is for doing this or that and it really happens, then you have the love of many viewers.
There's a reason Homestory cup is so awesome, because the pros comments give insight in the game, where all those lame ass "OOOOOOOHHHHHHH, AAAAAAAAHHHHHH WOWOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAHAHHHHHHHHH" casters, who think screaming louder means doing a better job just fail.

bonus vir semper tiro
JazzJackrabbit
Profile Joined March 2012
Canada1272 Posts
September 03 2012 19:21 GMT
#174
I've always been kind of surprised at the amount of praise Mr. Bitter gets. Don't get me wrong, he is a good caster but he is ONLY good when he's casting with Rotterdam. Watch him cast with anyone else and it's very awkward with little chemistry going on. I feel kind of bad for saying this because I met him at NASL and he's a really nice guy but again I'm a little thrown off by all the praise.

In a way, it's another element of casting that I think is important which is being flexible with other casters and not only being comfortable with the person you regularly cast with. Tastosis is great but Artosis is able to cast well when he's with someone else too.
CCa1ss1e
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada3231 Posts
September 03 2012 19:30 GMT
#175
i think wolf and khaldor are great.. tastosis is still my favourite duo.. but also like TB and Apollo.. Husky is great in is own way.. haha.. so many random funny jokes at the RedBull LAN.. lol.

I do think that Insight (meta-game) is important.. I guess I'm just used to the current pool of casters and have come to enjoy them.

XD
~ The Ultimate Weapon
Dosey
Profile Joined September 2010
United States4505 Posts
September 03 2012 19:30 GMT
#176
On September 04 2012 03:34 stew_ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2012 03:14 Dosey wrote:
On September 03 2012 17:13 Liquid`Ret wrote:
I have been watching starcraft and starcraft 2 for an extremely long time and I almost feel like the casting is getting worse and worse across the board. There are a few exceptions like Apollo, Rotterdam/MrBitter, Artosis (although he was much better a year ago) but with the other ones you can tell they almost never play the game anymore or never have played to begin with.

Starcraft is a beautiful game. There is a very large group of players who have great mechanics and practice a lot, so their builds are very polished and they can all beat each other on any given day. Still some players do better than others, there is a huge mental aspect to the game and slight changes in builds or playstyles that can make all the difference and this is what makes starcraft matches so fun to watch. .

Unfortunately, most casters are not very good at all at recognizing patterns or changes in the metagame, or builds. Infact there are so many occasions where casters who are newbies at the game, judge players and berate them for their mistakes, while they actually don't have a clue what is going on. Of course mistakes are much easier to point out than those little things players change in their play or the mind games that are going on at the top level. But these are the things that make starcraft a brilliant game to watch and follow. I feel like if we had professional casters who actually put the time and effort into delivering the best performance possible, the audience would come much closer to be able to experience starcraft in the same way that progamers experience it. With all the little nuances, mind games, and reasons why someone is doing what they're doing being analyzed and clearly explained.

When I listen to a cast and would be unable to see the screen, I would feel like sc2 is a random slugfest with 2 guys just throwing units at each other. Every game feels the same, and one guy wins at the end. This actually makes Starcraft much less appealing to new people or people who are actually looking for depth, not cheap entertainment. Of course this is exaggerated, but it's still sad to me that there is so little actual skill and knowledge amongst casters. I really hope that eventually (sooner the better) we can go to a model where there is one person doing play by plays and coloring the cast, and one progamer or ex-progamer (who still keeps up his skill and knowledge of all the recent trends) doing analytical casting. We saw some of this when Grubby was casting with apollo/kalearis and TLO/apollo at assembly (and these guys have barely practiced casting). The current casters are actually not helping Starcraft 2 grow in my opinion, they just live off their initial fame and because of how e-sports works twitter followers and popularity is more important than quality, substance. I believe Starcraft 2 is a good enough game to keep people interested, as long as the skill on the screen is translated and well delivered to the audience.

p.s sorry kinda off-topic, but felt like writing my opinion


It's a shame that there's no real threat of competition for the current casters. The up and comers have even less knowledge than the current top dogs and the pros most likely don't want to abandon their dream just yet. If we had even just a little competition from the pros, we just might see their complacent attitudes disappear as they worked harder to put out better casting and maintain their jobs.


There is actually, the korean casters do a fantastic job of really high level analysis during games... especially during gsl and proleague/osl.

Sense, you do not make.
ZigguratOfUr
Profile Blog Joined April 2012
Iraq16955 Posts
September 03 2012 19:37 GMT
#177
As has been remarked by many people in this thread, casters can be broadly divided into two different categories.

Analytical Casters- e.g Apollo, Artosis...

Play-by-play Casters- e.g Husky, TotalBiscuit...

Of course some casters do not entirely fit in either category, and others can play both roles (e.g Day[9]).

To be successful as an analytical caster a person needs to have:

>an extremely in depth knowledge of the current metagame
>the ability to read the different builds that the players are going and predicting the game (using the knowledge of the metagame)
>the ability to explain why the players are doing what they are doing, and to be able to point out the blunders that the players are making

A play-by-play caster however needs:

>the ability to concisely describe the situation (which can especially help newer viewers)
>the ability to hype up the game
>fill up the slower moments of the game (opening moments, or moments with no agression) by providing information about the players, or the map, or strong build orders

Progamers can amply fulfill the "analytical caster" requirements, due to their knowledge of the metagame, and can help raise the level of casting. The biggest hurdle for pros, is diction, as pros sometimes struggle to explain exactly why and how something would happen. Also pros are excellent at mini-map watching, which, as casters, would help the observing of the game(multi-pronged drops etc). The play-by-play caster doesn't necessarily need as much knowledge of the game, but needs to master diction to the highest degree.
StaplerPhone
Profile Joined March 2011
United States813 Posts
September 03 2012 19:40 GMT
#178
The original post sounds way too biased about the casters to me. I don't like or dislike Wolf but he is not a bad caster AT ALL. He may not have Artosis's insight but he's definitely better than most. Bitterdam is good but not at the level of Tastosis, there is a lot of bias in their casting. Just my 2 cents.
NaDa | MC | HerO | DeMusliM | TaeJa | viOLet
Gosi
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Sweden9072 Posts
September 03 2012 19:42 GMT
#179
I'm so sick and tired of the "but we NEED this and that to grow ESPORTS, we NEED it to be in THIS way so it can become mainstream". How fucking long are we gonna have this mindset? Isn't big enough for you already? How big and "mainstream" is enough for you to start enjoying what we have already? It sucks for us who are actually sticking with the game and scene and actually play it to have bronze casters who talk out of their hat and explain things every game like if we all are bronze noobs aswell. Why not cater to the actually audience and not the "potential" audience?

You don't see casters in other sports or in many other games for that matter sitting there explaining how the game works. That is something you look up yourself.
[13:40] <Qbek> gosi i dreanmt about you
BuddhaMonk
Profile Joined August 2010
781 Posts
September 03 2012 19:45 GMT
#180
Wolf is the reason for Moletrap's "fall" at GomTV? What? This OP is ridiculous.
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