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On August 26 2012 21:16 DidYuhim wrote:
To me it looks like ESF wants to disband the KeSPA and take over. Plain and simple.
To me it looks like Blizz is using ESF and GOM as proxies to get rid of KeSPA's sole asset, its control over the best performing players. The trouble is, Blizz doesn't realize that it's not KeSPA they're fighting against, its SKorean corporate interests themselves. If eSports takes off in Korea (e.g. SC2 gains a lot of street cred), you can bet that those corporate interests themselves will monopolize the Korean players once more. Might not be through KeSPA--might be through some other form--but it will happen.
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A lot of misguided posts here.
KeSPA was never in the GSL 4 yet, but was open to it. ESF had players in an ongoing OSL event with all the marketing, organization, and other things already in motion. KeSPA withdraws, which is bad only because there was an assumed agreement on GSL4 and because it was unexpected, but it was within their right to do so. ESF joins in the commotion and withdraw its players from the said ongoing OSL. ESF has done this before.
KeSPA is idiotic and stupid here, but the enemy is ESF. Get your heads straight guys.
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On August 26 2012 21:16 DidYuhim wrote:
To me it looks like ESF wants to disband the KeSPA and take over. Plain and simple.
eSF are players, Kespa are sponsors, so the situation is different. eSF has not yet put out any control over their players (as they are the players).
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On August 26 2012 21:23 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 21:16 DidYuhim wrote:
To me it looks like ESF wants to disband the KeSPA and take over. Plain and simple. To me it looks like Blizz is using ESF and GOM as proxies to get rid of KeSPA's sole asset, its control over the best performing players. The trouble is, Blizz doesn't realize that it's not KeSPA they're fighting against, its SKorean corporate interests themselves. If eSports takes off in Korea (e.g. SC2 gains a lot of street cred), you can bet that those corporate interests themselves will monopolize the Korean players once more. Might not be through KeSPA--might be through some other form--but it will happen.
Damn straight.
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On August 26 2012 21:24 Atheist wrote:
A lot of misguided posts here.
KeSPA was never in the GSL 4 yet, but was open to it. ESF had players in an ongoing OSL event with all the marketing, organization, and other things already in motion. KeSPA withdraws, which is bad only because there was an assumed agreement on GSL4 and because it was unexpected, but it was within their right to do so. ESF joins in the commotion and withdraw its players from the said ongoing OSL. ESF has done this before.
KeSPA is idiotic and stupid here, but the enemy is ESF. Get your heads straight guys.
extremely easier said than done for many people here.
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United Kingdom3482 Posts
On August 26 2012 21:02 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 20:58 B.I.G. wrote:
Know what? Fuck Kespa, and fuck the teams that stick with that nazi regime. I was just as excited as everyone to hear that Bisu and Flash were switching to SC2, but if it means destroying all the stuff we built in the past years then I prefer they go play League of Legends or something.
And don't say the players are innocent in this. Especially after this bullshit they and their teams should flee Kespa's evil clutches and come over to the ESF side. If they play it well, the sponsors will most certainly come along.
This is up to YOU Kespa players. You know the dissatisfaction everyone has with Kespa. Time to think bigger and take a risk. Now is your chance to give a big fuck you to Kespa and get on board with an organisation that actually listens to you and lets you play. Not that I'm trying to throw the boot in but none of this is the players fault. The players all want to play in the GSL, they've said so themselves but they can't really leave their teams to go play there. Kespa teams get salaries, people need money to live and the teams won't leave Kespa as all the sponsors who sponsor the teams are involved in Kespa and no sponsors means no money. There's been plenty of people in the past (like Stork) on the Kespa player roster who have said the players deserve more rights, but they're all too scared to do anything about it as they'll lose their livelihoods. The main issue here and why the ESF players are up in arms is that Kespa players have little to no rights on how they live their own lives. They're forced to practice 13-14 hours a day and can only play in events that their teams tell them. The reason the ESF players are up in arms is once upon a time they too lived in this conditions.
I'm not really sure why everyone is up in arms about the lack of freedom the Kespa players get. If you look at traditional sports every professional player will have an intensive that they have to stick to and they won't make the decisions on which tournaments they participate in. Hell look at basically any job and you have very little freedom in what you do. I think a lot of the pro teams, especially the foreign ones, are run like a hobby group, not a team of professional gamers. This is exactly why the Kespa players players have managed to achieve in 4-5 months what everyone else did in two years. If the Kespa teams were run like the foreigner teams or even the ESF teams they wouldn't be able to compete.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On August 26 2012 21:24 Atheist wrote:
KeSPA is idiotic and stupid here, but the enemy is ESF. Get your heads straight guys.
Enemy? Enemy? the eSF players are just standing up for the rights of the Kespa players. They feel that the Kespa players should be allowed to play in the tournament they've all been saying they want to play in.
Hos is that a bad thing? You're the misguided one.
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On August 26 2012 21:27 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 21:24 Atheist wrote:
KeSPA is idiotic and stupid here, but the enemy is ESF. Get your heads straight guys. Enemy? Enemy? the eSF players are just standing up for the rights of the Kespa players. They feel that the Kespa players should be allowed to play in the tournament they've all been saying they want to play in. Hos is that a bad thing? You're the misguided one.
like he said, kespa was stupid (still stupid) and esf's retaliation does a lot of damage for the korean sc2 scene, including kespa players. this isn't just a kespa/esf problem, its the korean sc2 scene problem and they're both jeopardizing it.
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On August 26 2012 21:24 Atheist wrote:
A lot of misguided posts here.
KeSPA was never in the GSL 4 yet, but was open to it. ESF had players in an ongoing OSL event with all the marketing, organization, and other things already in motion. KeSPA withdraws, which is bad only because there was an assumed agreement on GSL4 and because it was unexpected, but it was within their right to do so. ESF joins in the commotion and withdraw its players from the said ongoing OSL. ESF has done this before.
KeSPA is idiotic and stupid here, but the enemy is ESF. Get your heads straight guys.
ESF are the bloody players standing up for them self how is that a bad thing?
Only misguided post here is yours tbh!
On August 26 2012 21:28 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 21:27 Qikz wrote:On August 26 2012 21:24 Atheist wrote:
KeSPA is idiotic and stupid here, but the enemy is ESF. Get your heads straight guys. Enemy? Enemy? the eSF players are just standing up for the rights of the Kespa players. They feel that the Kespa players should be allowed to play in the tournament they've all been saying they want to play in. Hos is that a bad thing? You're the misguided one. like he said, kespa was stupid (still stupid) and esf's retaliation does a lot of damage for the korean sc2 scene, including kespa players. this isn't just a kespa/esf problem, its the korean sc2 scene problem and they're both jeopardizing it.
They are not jeopardizing anything. Yes in the short term the scene will be a complete mess but in the long term you going to see greater player independence and grass root organisations. This is the best thing in my opinion that could had happen for the Starcraft scene in Korea.
Players fighting back isn't that wonderful?
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On August 26 2012 21:27 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 21:24 Atheist wrote:
KeSPA is idiotic and stupid here, but the enemy is ESF. Get your heads straight guys. Enemy? Enemy? the eSF players are just standing up for the rights of the Kespa players. They feel that the Kespa players should be allowed to play in the tournament they've all been saying they want to play in. Hos is that a bad thing? You're the misguided one.
No, there is no enemy. KeSPA/SKorean corporates want control of eSports through monopolizing good players. Blizz/ESF/GOM want control of eSports by monopolizing the fact they have to play through BNet for all the games.
In the end the prize of monopoly is all those future eSports broadcast rights. This should have become apparent to the community from the first day Blizz announced no LAN for SC2.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
On August 26 2012 21:26 imallinson wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 21:02 Qikz wrote:On August 26 2012 20:58 B.I.G. wrote:
Know what? Fuck Kespa, and fuck the teams that stick with that nazi regime. I was just as excited as everyone to hear that Bisu and Flash were switching to SC2, but if it means destroying all the stuff we built in the past years then I prefer they go play League of Legends or something.
And don't say the players are innocent in this. Especially after this bullshit they and their teams should flee Kespa's evil clutches and come over to the ESF side. If they play it well, the sponsors will most certainly come along.
This is up to YOU Kespa players. You know the dissatisfaction everyone has with Kespa. Time to think bigger and take a risk. Now is your chance to give a big fuck you to Kespa and get on board with an organisation that actually listens to you and lets you play. Not that I'm trying to throw the boot in but none of this is the players fault. The players all want to play in the GSL, they've said so themselves but they can't really leave their teams to go play there. Kespa teams get salaries, people need money to live and the teams won't leave Kespa as all the sponsors who sponsor the teams are involved in Kespa and no sponsors means no money. There's been plenty of people in the past (like Stork) on the Kespa player roster who have said the players deserve more rights, but they're all too scared to do anything about it as they'll lose their livelihoods. The main issue here and why the ESF players are up in arms is that Kespa players have little to no rights on how they live their own lives. They're forced to practice 13-14 hours a day and can only play in events that their teams tell them. The reason the ESF players are up in arms is once upon a time they too lived in this conditions. I'm not really sure why everyone is up in arms about the lack of freedom the Kespa players get. If you look at traditional sports every professional player will have an intensive that they have to stick to and they won't make the decisions on which tournaments they participate in. Hell look at basically any job and you have very little freedom in what you do. I think a lot of the pro teams, especially the foreign ones, are run like a hobby group, not a team of professional gamers. This is exactly why the Kespa players players have managed to achieve in 4-5 months what everyone else did in two years. If the Kespa teams were run like the foreigner teams or even the ESF teams they wouldn't be able to compete.
eSports are not and will never be traditional sports. If you look at how many various Starcraft tournaments there are compared to say Tennis tournaments it's by far completely different. Kespa players do practice a lot, I understand that. It still doesn't excuse the fact they have little to no rights in how they live their lives and if they don't practice for the 12-13 hours a day like their teams tell them they'll get thrown out of the house.
The players need a union and eSF are trying to be that union. They want to stand up for the rights of the players and MVP etc. have decided themselves to step out of the OSL as they've actually been in that situation themselves. They know what it's like to live under Kespa's ruling and they feel it's unfair for the players as people.
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On August 26 2012 21:29 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 21:24 Atheist wrote:
A lot of misguided posts here.
KeSPA was never in the GSL 4 yet, but was open to it. ESF had players in an ongoing OSL event with all the marketing, organization, and other things already in motion. KeSPA withdraws, which is bad only because there was an assumed agreement on GSL4 and because it was unexpected, but it was within their right to do so. ESF joins in the commotion and withdraw its players from the said ongoing OSL. ESF has done this before.
KeSPA is idiotic and stupid here, but the enemy is ESF. Get your heads straight guys. ESF are the bloody players standing up for them self how is that a bad thing? Only misguided post here is yours tbh!
his post make sense to me. kespa says they wont be participating gsl 4 BEFORE anything set solid with an excuse regardless of how doubtful it maybe. esf pulls out of players in the first sc2 osl (hugely important) after everything has been set.
kespa's fault comes from the way they managed it, they shouldn't speak for all the players and teams as a whole and esf is at fault here for jeopardizing the whole sc2 scene.
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The public opinion seems to be changing within the last few hours. I hope BrosephBrostar, who was earlier in the thread was mobbed for being the lone Kespa hero here, chimes in; he seems to know something we don't.
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On August 26 2012 21:27 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 21:24 Atheist wrote:
KeSPA is idiotic and stupid here, but the enemy is ESF. Get your heads straight guys. Enemy? Enemy? the eSF players are just standing up for the rights of the Kespa players. They feel that the Kespa players should be allowed to play in the tournament they've all been saying they want to play in. Hos is that a bad thing? You're the misguided one.
Ok KeSPA does something bad, which can absolutely be arranged. But what ESF is doing is screwing up THE OSL, the inaugural Sc2 OSL, the most symbolic, prestigious starleague which may well decide the fate of Sc2 in Korea.
And if you are like "well fuck OSL, GSL has been going strong for 2 years", no it's not. This OSL will be the saving grace which will triple or quadruple the audience in Korea.
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On August 26 2012 21:29 Shady Sands wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 21:27 Qikz wrote:On August 26 2012 21:24 Atheist wrote:
KeSPA is idiotic and stupid here, but the enemy is ESF. Get your heads straight guys. Enemy? Enemy? the eSF players are just standing up for the rights of the Kespa players. They feel that the Kespa players should be allowed to play in the tournament they've all been saying they want to play in. Hos is that a bad thing? You're the misguided one. No, there is no enemy. KeSPA/SKorean corporates want control of eSports through monopolizing good players. Blizz/ESF/GOM want control of eSports by monopolizing the fact they have to play through BNet for all the games. In the end the prize of monopoly is all those future eSports broadcast rights. This should have become apparent to the community from the first day Blizz announced no LAN for SC2.
Blizzard wants to have control yes. eSF has nothing to do with Blizzard at least not more than any other SC2 players. GOM is sponsored by Blizzard that is true, but still they are not this company. It is funny how many here want to portrait eSF has Blizzards or GOM's puppet, as neither of those has any word to say in their decisions.
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United Kingdom450 Posts
On August 26 2012 21:27 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 21:24 Atheist wrote:
KeSPA is idiotic and stupid here, but the enemy is ESF. Get your heads straight guys. Enemy? Enemy? the eSF players are just standing up for the rights of the Kespa players. They feel that the Kespa players should be allowed to play in the tournament they've all been saying they want to play in. Hos is that a bad thing? You're the misguided one.
Do you seriously think these players would risk their reputations and income to 'stand up for the rights' of players most of whom they don't know, and who are their direct competition anyway? Take off your rose glasses...
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On August 26 2012 21:34 Arceus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 21:27 Qikz wrote:On August 26 2012 21:24 Atheist wrote:
KeSPA is idiotic and stupid here, but the enemy is ESF. Get your heads straight guys. Enemy? Enemy? the eSF players are just standing up for the rights of the Kespa players. They feel that the Kespa players should be allowed to play in the tournament they've all been saying they want to play in. Hos is that a bad thing? You're the misguided one. Ok KeSPA does something bad, which can absolutely be arranged. But what ESF is doing is screwing up THE OSL, the inaugural Sc2 OSL, the most symbolic, prestigious starleague which may well decide the fate of Sc2 in Korea. And if you are like "well fuck OSL, GSL has been going strong for 2 years", no it's not. This OSL will be the saving grace which will triple or quadruple the audience in Korea.
Yeah basically ESF/Blizz/GOM is saying "we would rather see SC2 burn to the ground in Korea than for KeSPA to own SC2 in Korea" with this move.
Given the lack of trust between the two sides and the existence of a classical two-equilibria game theory problem, this result is not surprising.
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On August 26 2012 21:34 Arceus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 21:27 Qikz wrote:On August 26 2012 21:24 Atheist wrote:
KeSPA is idiotic and stupid here, but the enemy is ESF. Get your heads straight guys. Enemy? Enemy? the eSF players are just standing up for the rights of the Kespa players. They feel that the Kespa players should be allowed to play in the tournament they've all been saying they want to play in. Hos is that a bad thing? You're the misguided one. Ok KeSPA does something bad, which can absolutely be arranged. But what ESF is doing is screwing up THE OSL, the inaugural Sc2 OSL, the most symbolic, prestigious starleague which may well decide the fate of Sc2 in Korea. And if you are like "well fuck OSL, GSL has been going strong for 2 years", no it's not. This OSL will be the saving grace which will triple or quadruple the audience in Korea.
But eSF does not want to screw the OSL, they just want to keep their freedom and save GSL. eSF is interessted in a future with two big leagues GSL and OSL, shile Kespa just wants OSL and have GSL as a minor tournament next to it.
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On August 26 2012 21:29 Benjamin99 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 21:24 Atheist wrote:
A lot of misguided posts here.
KeSPA was never in the GSL 4 yet, but was open to it. ESF had players in an ongoing OSL event with all the marketing, organization, and other things already in motion. KeSPA withdraws, which is bad only because there was an assumed agreement on GSL4 and because it was unexpected, but it was within their right to do so. ESF joins in the commotion and withdraw its players from the said ongoing OSL. ESF has done this before.
KeSPA is idiotic and stupid here, but the enemy is ESF. Get your heads straight guys. ESF are the bloody players standing up for them self how is that a bad thing? Only misguided post here is yours tbh! Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 21:28 jinorazi wrote:On August 26 2012 21:27 Qikz wrote:On August 26 2012 21:24 Atheist wrote:
KeSPA is idiotic and stupid here, but the enemy is ESF. Get your heads straight guys. Enemy? Enemy? the eSF players are just standing up for the rights of the Kespa players. They feel that the Kespa players should be allowed to play in the tournament they've all been saying they want to play in. Hos is that a bad thing? You're the misguided one. like he said, kespa was stupid (still stupid) and esf's retaliation does a lot of damage for the korean sc2 scene, including kespa players. this isn't just a kespa/esf problem, its the korean sc2 scene problem and they're both jeopardizing it. They are not jeopardizing anything. Yes in the short term the scene will be a complete mess but in the long term you going to see greater player independence and grass root organisations. This is the best thing in my opinion that could had happen for the Starcraft scene in Korea. Players fighting back isn't that wonderful?
ogn is the gateway for sc2's popularity in korea and the first sc2 osl is about to fail. short term damage, long term damage, i can't say but it sure is damaging. i'm all for esf fighting back and hopefully kespa allows the teams to manage on their own but what has happened is bad for the scene right now and esf did that by possibly ruining osl, acting by anticipating it'll be the repeat of gom classic (this is also another debate and with two sides to the story). but kespa has said they want to work together and thinks sc2 players aren't ready. the problem isn't kespa moving with hidden motives, problem lies with the management...i say this without the automatic kespa wants to kill gom bias because there's no need to dig that deep.
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On August 26 2012 21:37 Sandermatt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2012 21:34 Arceus wrote:On August 26 2012 21:27 Qikz wrote:On August 26 2012 21:24 Atheist wrote:
KeSPA is idiotic and stupid here, but the enemy is ESF. Get your heads straight guys. Enemy? Enemy? the eSF players are just standing up for the rights of the Kespa players. They feel that the Kespa players should be allowed to play in the tournament they've all been saying they want to play in. Hos is that a bad thing? You're the misguided one. Ok KeSPA does something bad, which can absolutely be arranged. But what ESF is doing is screwing up THE OSL, the inaugural Sc2 OSL, the most symbolic, prestigious starleague which may well decide the fate of Sc2 in Korea. And if you are like "well fuck OSL, GSL has been going strong for 2 years", no it's not. This OSL will be the saving grace which will triple or quadruple the audience in Korea. But eSF does not want to screw the OSL, they just want to keep their freedom and save GSL. eSF is interessted in a future with two big leagues GSL and OSL, shile Kespa just wants OSL and have GSL as a minor tournament next to it.
no No NO.
ESF wants leagues under Blizz/GOM control. KeSPA wants leagues under SK Corporate/OGN control. It's all about the broadcast rights. That's it.
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EPT
