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On August 25 2012 02:33 zev318 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:28 gedatsu wrote:
ESF should now back down and play OSL as originally intended. Following through with their threat will only cause a lot of badwill between the different parties. ESF got what they wanted. Operate as if kespa will do what they promised, and if they don't then just make a larger ruckus next time. back down from what, if they go back and play OSL, then the threat to pull out would have done nothing. the whole point was to get kespa players to play season 4, and kespa is still not doing that. ESF needs to say, ok we will play in OSL when you play GSL.
The whole point was to get kespa players to play GSL. They're getting that. Mission accomplished. Causing embarrassment for the third party OGN when they already have what they wanted, only means they might not get the chance to play OSL in the future.
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On August 25 2012 02:32 sharkie wrote:
wth are you all comparing GSL and OSL like its the same?
One tournament has already reached the half way and the other tournament hasnt even started yet.
Kespa said they wont participate in GSL BEFORE IT STARTED, ESF is boycotting OSL DURING the tournament.
Dont you realise its two different scenarios?
from the announcement:
Today, we have received an official response from KeSPA, stating that their players will, once again, not participate in the GSL Season 4 Code A qualifiers.
and that was on the 23rd.
i wouldnt give 2 shits if its now the middle of OSL, if kespa is gonna be a douchebag about letting their players play. kespa players want to play GSL but kespa says no, fuck that shit.
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On August 25 2012 02:35 gedatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:33 zev318 wrote:On August 25 2012 02:28 gedatsu wrote:
ESF should now back down and play OSL as originally intended. Following through with their threat will only cause a lot of badwill between the different parties. ESF got what they wanted. Operate as if kespa will do what they promised, and if they don't then just make a larger ruckus next time. back down from what, if they go back and play OSL, then the threat to pull out would have done nothing. the whole point was to get kespa players to play season 4, and kespa is still not doing that. ESF needs to say, ok we will play in OSL when you play GSL. The whole point was to get kespa players to play GSL. They're getting that. Mission accomplished. Causing embarrassment for the third party OGN when they already have what they wanted, only means they might not get the chance to play OSL in the future.
What prevents KeSPA from backing out next time or causing issues?
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OGN is hardly a 3rd party...
OGN & KeSpa brought this on themselves.
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On August 25 2012 02:35 gedatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:33 zev318 wrote:On August 25 2012 02:28 gedatsu wrote:
ESF should now back down and play OSL as originally intended. Following through with their threat will only cause a lot of badwill between the different parties. ESF got what they wanted. Operate as if kespa will do what they promised, and if they don't then just make a larger ruckus next time. back down from what, if they go back and play OSL, then the threat to pull out would have done nothing. the whole point was to get kespa players to play season 4, and kespa is still not doing that. ESF needs to say, ok we will play in OSL when you play GSL. The whole point was to get kespa players to play GSL. They're getting that. Mission accomplished. Causing embarrassment for the third party OGN when they already have what they wanted, only means they might not get the chance to play OSL in the future.
A "we will in future" doesn't constitute anything. It would just mean OGN would get what they want this time, then KeSPA would pull the same thing for Season 5 when they've had months to prepare things enough so that they could reduce and/or weather the storm.
I think the ESF players would run the risk of not being allowed to participate in the OSL in future if the alternative is going out of business. And rightly so.
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On August 25 2012 02:35 gedatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:33 zev318 wrote:On August 25 2012 02:28 gedatsu wrote:
ESF should now back down and play OSL as originally intended. Following through with their threat will only cause a lot of badwill between the different parties. ESF got what they wanted. Operate as if kespa will do what they promised, and if they don't then just make a larger ruckus next time. back down from what, if they go back and play OSL, then the threat to pull out would have done nothing. the whole point was to get kespa players to play season 4, and kespa is still not doing that. ESF needs to say, ok we will play in OSL when you play GSL. The whole point was to get kespa players to play GSL. They're getting that. Mission accomplished. Causing embarrassment for the third party OGN when they already have what they wanted, only means they might not get the chance to play OSL in the future.
ya NEXT season (5), not this upcoming season (4), so what does that change? nothing, kespa is still getting what they want and screwing GSL over. why should GSL let their players keep promoting OSL by playing in it and kespa not having to do the same?
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Kespa Bets: The survival of esports.
eSF: Raise.
Kespa: Fold.
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On August 25 2012 02:36 achan1058 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:35 gedatsu wrote:On August 25 2012 02:33 zev318 wrote:On August 25 2012 02:28 gedatsu wrote:
ESF should now back down and play OSL as originally intended. Following through with their threat will only cause a lot of badwill between the different parties. ESF got what they wanted. Operate as if kespa will do what they promised, and if they don't then just make a larger ruckus next time. back down from what, if they go back and play OSL, then the threat to pull out would have done nothing. the whole point was to get kespa players to play season 4, and kespa is still not doing that. ESF needs to say, ok we will play in OSL when you play GSL. The whole point was to get kespa players to play GSL. They're getting that. Mission accomplished. Causing embarrassment for the third party OGN when they already have what they wanted, only means they might not get the chance to play OSL in the future. What prevents KeSPA from backing out next time or causing issues?
Nothing. That's why I said this: Operate as if kespa will do what they promised, and if they don't then just make a larger ruckus next time.
On August 25 2012 02:38 zev318 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:35 gedatsu wrote:On August 25 2012 02:33 zev318 wrote:On August 25 2012 02:28 gedatsu wrote:
ESF should now back down and play OSL as originally intended. Following through with their threat will only cause a lot of badwill between the different parties. ESF got what they wanted. Operate as if kespa will do what they promised, and if they don't then just make a larger ruckus next time. back down from what, if they go back and play OSL, then the threat to pull out would have done nothing. the whole point was to get kespa players to play season 4, and kespa is still not doing that. ESF needs to say, ok we will play in OSL when you play GSL. The whole point was to get kespa players to play GSL. They're getting that. Mission accomplished. Causing embarrassment for the third party OGN when they already have what they wanted, only means they might not get the chance to play OSL in the future. ya NEXT season (5), not this upcoming season (4), so what does that change? nothing, kespa is still getting what they want and screwing GSL over. why should GSL let their players keep promoting OSL by playing in it and kespa not having to do the same?
If ESF wants to dictate exactly when kespa will start participating in GSL, they won't have my support. Kespa has said that they will and when they will participate, and it is in the not too distant future. That should definitely be good enough for them.
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On August 25 2012 02:24 yeeshdontjudgeme wrote:
People should shut up about about KeSPA losing or the war is over. KeSPA was most likely going to participate in Season 5 anyway so this announcement changes ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. They're still not participating in Season 4. KeSPA still benefits from GSL + KeSPA players being in their league while GSL gets the shortend.
I also call bullshit on their "heavy" schedule. GSL players practically have the harder schedules with their international tournaments and various international team tournaments to go with GSL, GSTL, weeklys. KeSPA has proleague and a bunch of leagues that GSL players ALREADY PARTICIPATE IN. Bullshit.
To start, KeSPA did come out saying their players likely were not going to participate in GSL Season 5. Second, ESF players do not necessarily have harder schedules:
Currently KeSPA players are particiating in Proleague, OGN Starleague, WCG Korea, and WCS Korea Nationals, and planning to participate in MLG online matches and the MLG Fall Championship. According to KeSPA, it takes approximately 4 days for Proleague, 2 days for OSL, and 2 days for MLG online matches, total of 8 days per week for players.
(source)
For the vast majority of ESF players, you can replace Proleague with GSTL, add GSL, and drop the MLG stuff. It's arguably a similar work schedule, with only rare exceptions like MC having a higher workload out of personal choice & team obligations (SK Gaming is more international in scope by default). Also to consider is that it's well known that KeSPA players tend to practice far more than ESF players on average; that's a policy difference between KeSPA and ESF.
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On August 25 2012 02:38 gedatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:36 achan1058 wrote:On August 25 2012 02:35 gedatsu wrote:On August 25 2012 02:33 zev318 wrote:On August 25 2012 02:28 gedatsu wrote:
ESF should now back down and play OSL as originally intended. Following through with their threat will only cause a lot of badwill between the different parties. ESF got what they wanted. Operate as if kespa will do what they promised, and if they don't then just make a larger ruckus next time. back down from what, if they go back and play OSL, then the threat to pull out would have done nothing. the whole point was to get kespa players to play season 4, and kespa is still not doing that. ESF needs to say, ok we will play in OSL when you play GSL. The whole point was to get kespa players to play GSL. They're getting that. Mission accomplished. Causing embarrassment for the third party OGN when they already have what they wanted, only means they might not get the chance to play OSL in the future. What prevents KeSPA from backing out next time or causing issues? Nothing. That's why I said this: Operate as if kespa will do what they promised, and if they don't then just make a larger ruckus next time.
I don't think that's a wise decision, since this gives significant power to KeSPA. They might not even invite GSL players next time and back out completely. At least right now they are in a bind.
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On August 25 2012 02:38 gedatsu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:36 achan1058 wrote:On August 25 2012 02:35 gedatsu wrote:On August 25 2012 02:33 zev318 wrote:On August 25 2012 02:28 gedatsu wrote:
ESF should now back down and play OSL as originally intended. Following through with their threat will only cause a lot of badwill between the different parties. ESF got what they wanted. Operate as if kespa will do what they promised, and if they don't then just make a larger ruckus next time. back down from what, if they go back and play OSL, then the threat to pull out would have done nothing. the whole point was to get kespa players to play season 4, and kespa is still not doing that. ESF needs to say, ok we will play in OSL when you play GSL. The whole point was to get kespa players to play GSL. They're getting that. Mission accomplished. Causing embarrassment for the third party OGN when they already have what they wanted, only means they might not get the chance to play OSL in the future. What prevents KeSPA from backing out next time or causing issues? Nothing. That's why I said this: Operate as if kespa will do what they promised, and if they don't then just make a larger ruckus next time.
yes but that weakens the position of esf. dont see that?
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Gedatsu: So basically ESF should just bend over and take it then, and turn around surprised when the same thing that always happens occurs once again? Doing the same thing over and over expecting different results is called crazy for a reason.
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On August 25 2012 02:36 achan1058 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:35 gedatsu wrote:On August 25 2012 02:33 zev318 wrote:On August 25 2012 02:28 gedatsu wrote:
ESF should now back down and play OSL as originally intended. Following through with their threat will only cause a lot of badwill between the different parties. ESF got what they wanted. Operate as if kespa will do what they promised, and if they don't then just make a larger ruckus next time. back down from what, if they go back and play OSL, then the threat to pull out would have done nothing. the whole point was to get kespa players to play season 4, and kespa is still not doing that. ESF needs to say, ok we will play in OSL when you play GSL. The whole point was to get kespa players to play GSL. They're getting that. Mission accomplished. Causing embarrassment for the third party OGN when they already have what they wanted, only means they might not get the chance to play OSL in the future. What prevents KeSPA from backing out next time or causing issues?
Exactly, promise is not credible.
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OSL starts next week, right? If that's the case, ESF might as well play a waiting game and say that the teams are still discussing on what they are going to do, which puts more pressure on KeSPA to compromise more.
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On August 25 2012 02:43 achan1058 wrote:
OSL starts next week, right? If that's the case, ESF might as well play a waiting game and say that the teams are still discussing on what they are going to do, which puts more pressure on KeSPA to compromise more.
I don't expect Kespa to give in more than they already gave in.
However I still don't think that eSF should give in either. They should stand to their "boycott until Kespa lowers their blockade stance", which sadly will be after the OSL already started.
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Except KeSPA will not back down GSL season 4. That's their bottom line.
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On August 25 2012 02:47 JustPassingBy wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2012 02:43 achan1058 wrote:
OSL starts next week, right? If that's the case, ESF might as well play a waiting game and say that the teams are still discussing on what they are going to do, which puts more pressure on KeSPA to compromise more. I don't expect Kespa to give in more than they already gave in. However I still don't think that eSF should give in either. They should stand to their "boycott until Kespa lowers their blockade stance", which sadly will be after the OSL already started.
That's what I meant by "discussing on what they are going to do". Simply make the deadline slip by "indecision"
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Well, a bunch of guys responded to the same thing and gave the same reply too. So I'd like to ask you:
Suppose kespa promises to join GSL 4. What should ESF do then? By your reasoning they still can't participate in OSL, because kespa could lie. They could pull out just after the code A qualifiers, or as soon as the OSL finishes, or whatever. So it doesn't matter what kespa says. That translates to pulling out of OSL even if kespa hadn't said anything on the subject at all.
You only have this choice: believe kespa, or don't believe them. If you believe them, then participate in OSL. If you don't believe them, it doesn't matter what promises they make.
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On August 25 2012 02:49 gedatsu wrote:
Well, a bunch of guys responded to the same thing and gave the same reply too. So I'd like to ask you:
Suppose kespa promises to join GSL 4. What should ESF do then? By your reasoning they still can't participate in OSL, because kespa could lie. They could pull out just after the code A qualifiers, or as soon as the OSL finishes, or whatever. So it doesn't matter what kespa says. That translates to pulling out of OSL even if kespa hadn't said anything on the subject at all.
You only have this choice: believe kespa, or don't believe them. If you believe them, then participate in OSL. If you don't believe them, it doesn't matter what promises they make.
If they say they come for nr 4 they have to come. If they say they come for nr 5 they dont.
The reason is as stupid as is sounds: the average time a guy on tl/reddit/korean forum remembers is 1-2 Month.
A lot of stuff can happen until 5 and they can find a lot of "good" reasons not to show up or just send b teamers...
Its not so much about, if they show up or not.
Its about : Do they allow their players to do their own decision?
Playing now = their players can join if they want
Playing in half a year = their players come when kespa "send" them.
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On August 25 2012 02:49 gedatsu wrote:
Well, a bunch of guys responded to the same thing and gave the same reply too. So I'd like to ask you:
Suppose kespa promises to join GSL 4. What should ESF do then? By your reasoning they still can't participate in OSL, because kespa could lie. They could pull out just after the code A qualifiers, or as soon as the OSL finishes, or whatever. So it doesn't matter what kespa says. That translates to pulling out of OSL even if kespa hadn't said anything on the subject at all.
You only have this choice: believe kespa, or don't believe them. If you believe them, then participate in OSL. If you don't believe them, it doesn't matter what promises they make.
I think ESP already made their stand. If Kespa still pulls out of GSL 5 after making this statement, they will get a big backlash in korea (AFAIK, koreans have actually sided with ESF on this) and the foreign community. Plus, no one knows whether the OSL champion will be ESF or Kespa. So if Kespa does break their promise, they might not have the defend champ for the next OSL.
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EPT
