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[DISCOVERY] 2x high templar feedback - older dies - Page 2

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
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JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
July 25 2012 20:18 GMT
#21
On July 26 2012 05:15 Grumbels wrote:
If you want to investigate something else, can you discover if there is a pattern as to which of the starting workers would count as 'older'? It would be funny if it would become correct play to keep an eye on your 'oldest' worker and use that one to scout. After all, if you're playing a mirror and you're attack-moving your worker and your opponent isn't aware of this trick, you are ensured a worker kill if he engages you like this.


From what the OP is saying, I don't think you want your oldest one to go scout. You want your newest one.
Yargh
MyLastSerenade
Profile Joined February 2010
Germany710 Posts
July 25 2012 20:20 GMT
#22
wtf, thats quite a discovery!
would like to see a statment from blizz on that...
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7032 Posts
July 25 2012 20:24 GMT
#23
On July 26 2012 05:18 JinDesu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2012 05:15 Grumbels wrote:
If you want to investigate something else, can you discover if there is a pattern as to which of the starting workers would count as 'older'? It would be funny if it would become correct play to keep an eye on your 'oldest' worker and use that one to scout. After all, if you're playing a mirror and you're attack-moving your worker and your opponent isn't aware of this trick, you are ensured a worker kill if he engages you like this.


From what the OP is saying, I don't think you want your oldest one to go scout. You want your newest one.

Sorry, I misread it as the oldest unit winning, because that makes more sense imo. Since I figured the game might have a list of units, add newly created units to the end of the list and then remove killed units from the list before they have a chance to fire themselves. (as feedback is instant, like tank volleys)
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
Mephyss
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Brazil128 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-25 20:26:09
July 25 2012 20:24 GMT
#24
From a programmer pov its not that complicated. The game must work like this. Every unit created gets a unique ID. When the game loop is going over all units in a frame to check their actions. this unit loop its sorted by ID (Game case the list is reversed as in every new unit is inserted at the front the list)
herbie
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
140 Posts
July 25 2012 20:26 GMT
#25
New units are obviously first in the update cycle, so their commands are processed before older units. I would assume this affects all units where the interaction is extremely close. Really interesting.
SeraKuDA
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada343 Posts
July 25 2012 20:28 GMT
#26
I was reading this but the ad for Snorg Tees distracted me from my thoughts.
sLiMpoweR
Profile Joined March 2009
United States430 Posts
July 25 2012 20:28 GMT
#27
What if they are exactly the same age?
Team aMg
Omri
Profile Joined September 2011
Israel638 Posts
July 25 2012 20:29 GMT
#28
On July 26 2012 05:28 sLiMpoweR wrote:
What if they are exactly the same age?


The universe explodes?
Yegwen
Profile Joined September 2011
Poland80 Posts
July 25 2012 20:30 GMT
#29
And it DOES work for Ghosts vs High Templars! The younger one casts the spell faster!
We don't grow old, we get old by not growing
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
July 25 2012 20:31 GMT
#30
On July 26 2012 05:28 sLiMpoweR wrote:
What if they are exactly the same age?


I don't think they can be - assuming the system uses some sort of ID for timestamp.
Yargh
graNite
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany4434 Posts
July 25 2012 20:32 GMT
#31
On July 26 2012 05:30 Yegwen wrote:
And it DOES work for Ghosts vs High Templars! The younger one casts the spell faster!


That's so strange because the ghost snipe has a bigger range ?!
"Oink oink, bitches" - Tasteless on Pigbaby winning a map against Flash
Grumbels
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Netherlands7032 Posts
July 25 2012 20:32 GMT
#32
In any case, an application for this is: if you warp in a high templar you know it can win any immediate feedback face-offs.
Well, now I tell you, I never seen good come o' goodness yet. Him as strikes first is my fancy; dead men don't bite; them's my views--amen, so be it.
AcrossFiveJulys
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
United States3612 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-25 20:35:01
July 25 2012 20:33 GMT
#33
On July 26 2012 05:26 herbie wrote:
New units are obviously first in the update cycle, so their commands are processed before older units. I would assume this affects all units where the interaction is extremely close. Really interesting.


This analysis sounds about right to me. One way to fix this issue would be to randomize which unit commands are processed first. However, that might introduce performance issues... it's possible they have the order in which commands are processed streamlined in some way to optimize performance, so actually in reality it might be more complicated than just which unit is newer.


On July 26 2012 05:32 graNite wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2012 05:30 Yegwen wrote:
And it DOES work for Ghosts vs High Templars! The younger one casts the spell faster!


That's so strange because the ghost snipe has a bigger range ?!


Yes but there's a significant pause before the ghosts actually snipes during its animation while the feedback is near instant.
Ghoststrikes
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada1356 Posts
July 25 2012 20:34 GMT
#34
On July 26 2012 05:32 Grumbels wrote:
In any case, an application for this is: if you warp in a high templar you know it can win any immediate feedback face-offs.


Yeah like that happens often in PvPs....
Never say die
herbie
Profile Blog Joined September 2011
140 Posts
July 25 2012 20:35 GMT
#35
On July 26 2012 05:28 sLiMpoweR wrote:
What if they are exactly the same age?

All that matters is the order they are placed onto the collection in memory, they cannot be placed in the same index, therefore one will always be created before the other.
TitleRug
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States651 Posts
July 25 2012 20:36 GMT
#36
very interesting, i always thought it was random
coLCruncher fighting!
urashimakt
Profile Joined October 2009
United States1591 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-25 20:39:23
July 25 2012 20:36 GMT
#37
On July 26 2012 05:33 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2012 05:26 herbie wrote:
New units are obviously first in the update cycle, so their commands are processed before older units. I would assume this affects all units where the interaction is extremely close. Really interesting.


This analysis sounds about right to me. One way to fix this issue would be to randomize which unit commands are processed first. However, that might introduce performance issues... it's possible they have the order in which commands are processed streamlined in some way to optimize performance, so actually in reality it might be more complicated than just which unit is newer.


Show nested quote +
On July 26 2012 05:32 graNite wrote:
On July 26 2012 05:30 Yegwen wrote:
And it DOES work for Ghosts vs High Templars! The younger one casts the spell faster!


That's so strange because the ghost snipe has a bigger range ?!


Yes but there's a significant pause before the ghosts actually snipes during its animation while the feedback is near instant.

The answer is the same as to how they mask this "problem" with attacks: add a random min/max delay to spellcasts.

On July 26 2012 05:36 bgx wrote:
on a more serious note im more interested in those marines, zerglings, workers....

Attacks have a min/max delay that minimizes (one might say it eliminates) the update order advantage.
Who dat ninja?
bgx
Profile Joined August 2010
Poland6595 Posts
July 25 2012 20:36 GMT
#38
On July 26 2012 05:34 Ghoststrikes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2012 05:32 Grumbels wrote:
In any case, an application for this is: if you warp in a high templar you know it can win any immediate feedback face-offs.


Yeah like that happens often in PvPs....

thank god PvP never reached templar metagame otherwise we would have to scrap all the templar vs templar games :p

on a more serious note im more interested in those marines, zerglings, workers....
Stork[gm]
graNite
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Germany4434 Posts
July 25 2012 20:38 GMT
#39
i want to see feedback vs battlecruiser, because they have the same range
"Oink oink, bitches" - Tasteless on Pigbaby winning a map against Flash
Spidinko
Profile Joined May 2010
Slovakia1174 Posts
July 25 2012 20:38 GMT
#40
Well then, I guess it's slightly better to save older unit than newer, if it's the only distinction ^^.

Fun fact, though I don't see it impacting the game much. Maybe it's better to go scouting with first worker, but besides that, idk.
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