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There will obviously be balance shifts when gameplay values are changed. Nobody is claiming otherwise. This thread is about the effect these changes have on the clarity and spectator-friendliness of SC2. |
On July 04 2012 08:39 topschutter wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 08:34 Darneck wrote:On July 04 2012 08:31 topschutter wrote:On July 04 2012 08:05 Darneck wrote:On July 04 2012 08:02 scph wrote:On July 04 2012 08:00 Darneck wrote:On July 04 2012 07:55 zezamer wrote:On July 04 2012 07:38 LgNKami wrote:
to all the protoss and zerg players bitching that this would make it too easy for terran, just think about it...
your banelings wont clump and die to 2 siege tank shots
your mutas wont get fucked by thors
your infestors wont clump and become useless after being emp'd
your 10 broodlords wont die to 3 archons in less than 5 seconds.
and for toss players:
your army wont lose over half its health after being emp'd by 2 ghosts because you attack moved your army and looked away.
the only benefits for terran the i see is:
less storm dodging
less splitting for tanks in tvt
less splitting for banelings
nothing else will really change.
just think a little bit before you decide to toss aside an idea (no pun intended) You managed to summarize why this would make the game more ezmode  He didn't as that's not what would happen with a radius increase on AOE damage Then all his points would become invalid if there's a radius increase on AoE damage. Fair enough but I hope and take it that you understood what I meant ^^ It wouldn't become ezmode with an increase in AOE damage and radius I don't get this, so on a choke AOE just kills everything because of higher radius and/or higher damage? That only solves things on open field. Also people saying that it makes the players split even more: wtf, so you split against the deathball (what is the problem), by making players split more... just let them split the deathball. AOE should be stronger in general, it has been nerfed to the ground because of the deathball basically and it should be possible to hold choke points more effectively and have a defenders advantage with AOE spells. And this changes battles in so many more ways than just AOE but I really can't be bothered to bring it up for the 10th time because people never read the thread before they post in it. The maps also shouldn't be looking the same way with these changes First of all you want me to read 15 pages off comments? Yes, but the chokes don't need to be too good, otherwise you can't attack with advantage. But you are just saying: yes alot has to change if you use it.... make a whole new game just for one new feature. But please explain to me how it is fun to watch a whole army move across the map with awesome positioning? MKP can then just quit because his APM is useless. And please don't say he can still micro units further away because of changes. You can't just go change the whole game. Oh and next thread I will look at all the comments to see if you posted -.-
I'll just quote Weerwolf again who made some points about why it would be much greater like this
"es, I think it will, but it will also mean multiple other things. I know people hate the reference to Broodwar, but Im going to reference to it anyway for the battles, just so people get some kind of a picture (or can look up a picture ).
In Broodwar, there are also some variety of deathballs, for example in TvP. 'Deathballs' will be spread far enough however that there is plenty of room for micro, plenty of room for movement, plenty of room for retreating and making strategic decisions. Because of this, you can actually retreat, without having to lose at least half or 75% of your army which leads to you immediatly losing the game if you went ahead with a deathball vs deathball battle, and lost. (which is the case with the current sc2 deathball vs deathball scenario).
However, it changes even more. Because units are more spread out, the damage per second at the moment the armies clash is far less. This is why there is more room for micro, movement and decisions.
Another effect, is that smaller armies will be usefull again! Instead of being instantly annihilated by the blob, the army size that is smaller can actually do some damage to the larger army, because not all of the dps of the larger army is at the front of the battle. Smaller armies could still exchange unfavorably, but some units (Like tanks), have more firing time because they will launch a couple of shots, annihilate the first couple of units and be reloaded by the time the rest of the opponents army is near them. In the current situation, tanks fire once or twice, but since all the units are at the front they get overwhelmed within seconds.
Because smaller armies are not almost inherently mean a waste of money, it is not useless for a player to attack multiple fronts. this means that the defending player can do two things:
1. Keep his army as a deathball and try to kill each group one by one. This will ofcourse work, and will kill the other army with somewhat of an advantage, but the other small groups still damage his economy. Since the player with the smaller armies all over the map wouldnt gain an immense disadvantage with engaging with smaller forces, he would have an ecomonic lead, still some forces, and could likely win the game.
2. Split up his forces to defend, counter attack, secure ground (yes, securing ground would be a lot more usefull and doable again). Attention of the two players would be needed everywhere, everywhere would need to be micro'd. Even with the new Hearth of the Swarm this would be great, since the new widow mine could secure ground against the smaller forces invading it."
And I'm not even quite sure what you mean with micro units further away and this wouldn't change the whole game as we know it and even so, that was almost done with WC3 when TfT came out and HotS is coming now.
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Whatever balance issues this may/may not cause, i would like to see this be implemented. You can still cluster your units if you want, but overall the movement just feels more natural to me and makes more sense.
Would definitely have to be based around an expansion or something though as it would be a pretty dramatic change in game play, though one I would think is clearly for the better.
And to those trying to claim APM would be useless with this change, that is just BS. Just means your APM can go to better thing rather than keeping you units from hugging each other when you tell them to move.
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On July 04 2012 08:50 Tictock wrote:
Whatever balance issues this may/may not cause, i would like to see this be implemented. You can still cluster your units if you want, but overall the movement just feels more natural to me and makes more sense.
Would definitely have to be based around an expansion or something though as it would be a pretty dramatic change in game play, though one I would think is clearly for the better.
And to those trying to claim APM would be useless with this change, that is just BS. Just means your APM can go to better thing rather than keeping you units from hugging each other when you tell them to move.
We need more people like you in the community to speak up more often. Most people dont understand (because they dont micro) that when you arent forced to watch your army the entire game after aoe units are on the field, you can do so much more. i would 14cc everygame (i do so in most games anyway because thats the only way i can win) if I knew that I wouldnt lose my entire army to a baneling bust because for that 1 ingame second, I actually took a breath and decided to build something other than a 2 layer wall to protect myself. That wall is expensive to build. lol
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I just played a game on this map with a friend. Here is the replay if anyone wants to see it, Low masters T vs mid masters Z.
http://drop.sc/214158
TBH I dont think it made much of a difference in gameplay as I didnt really notice anything notable in the spreads as I still had to spread everything myself during a battle. I think pre-spreading before a fight is what will make or break the game.
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don't see how this is needed really, just makes things easier
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i would be pretty pissed when two seconds of looking away from the minerals means my three SCV lines are completely destroyed by storms/fungals.
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On July 04 2012 09:13 sc2superfan101 wrote:
i would be pretty pissed when two seconds of looking away from the minerals means my three SCV lines are completely destroyed by storms/fungals.
Build more base defense ? Be more alert ? Getting a good economy will be much harder now due to the harass options available and will take a lot more skill to do damage to your opponent and take lesser damage yourself. No more 2-3 bases on full saturation at 10 minutes and then balls colliding.
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Bye Banelings.
Hello incredibly complicated stalker move-shift-blink.
Why the hell would you change something this stupid and small just because it's ugly? With good micro, you can already do this on a small scale.
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give lurker back, add magic box :D
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On July 04 2012 09:17 Nuclease wrote:
Bye Banelings.
Hello incredibly complicated stalker move-shift-blink.
Why the hell would you change something this stupid and small just because it's ugly? With good micro, you can already do this on a small scale.
A spectator sport must look good, viewers should be able to follow battles easily and units should be easily distinguishable on the screen. It should also mean that when armies fight there is more to be done that doing a-move and then casting spells. People who practice 10 hours a day get more out of units than people who play for 1-2 to create that Wow factor.
Other sports do changes like this all the time. SC2 must also do this to improve even if it means causing some transitionary pain in short term.
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On July 04 2012 09:17 WickedBit wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 09:13 sc2superfan101 wrote:
i would be pretty pissed when two seconds of looking away from the minerals means my three SCV lines are completely destroyed by storms/fungals. Build more base defense ? Be more alert ? Getting a good economy will be much harder now due to the harass options available and will take a lot more skill to do damage to your opponent and take lesser damage yourself. No more 2-3 bases on full saturation at 10 minutes and then balls colliding.
meh. it would just completely change the game that i love, and not introduce any kind of higher skill cap. it might lower the skill cap, or maybe not raise it. but literally everything in the game would have to be rebalanced.
the warp-prism would need a health/shield nerf (because now losing the warp-prism to a turret but saving the 1 HT would = dead mineral line)
melee units would have to receive balance changes, maybe buffs, maybe nerfs. i'm not smart enough to figure out which, but they definitely wouldn't work the same.
banelings would need a speed upgrade and a massive radius upgrade.
chokes and ramps would need to be much larger because going near one would be suicide if your opponent has any of this buffed AOE. either that or you'd just have 30 minutes of sitting around waiting to get bored and run into death.
im not saying that it wouldn't work, im just explainign that they would seriously have to change everything about the game. i get that people don't like the "deathball" but it works. no good pros just a-move, ever. and battles are rarely over after one engagement anymore. this thread would have been much more relevant back in 2011.
edit:
also expand first every game is boring to me.
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On July 04 2012 09:17 Nuclease wrote:
Bye Banelings.
Hello incredibly complicated stalker move-shift-blink.
Why the hell would you change something this stupid and small just because it's ugly? With good micro, you can already do this on a small scale.
small scale is cool in a small army vs small army basis, but when it comes to a deathball with tons of aoe vs a bioball with energy draining\shield draining aoe its a different story as that isnt small scale at all and unless you are constantly practing with people who know how to multitask and micro... you will neer understand how much of an impact something like this would change.
the lategame situation would actually be lategame. mid-game wouldnt be turtle to max army vs aggressive player who is desperate to stop the turtle from getting to a maxed out army. and the early game would be 15 nexus vs 15 cc, 14 cc s 15 hatch, or 15 hatch vs ffe.
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On July 04 2012 09:05 Kaoriyu wrote:I just played a game on this map with a friend. Here is the replay if anyone wants to see it, Low masters T vs mid masters Z. http://drop.sc/214158TBH I dont think it made much of a difference in gameplay as I didnt really notice anything notable in the spreads as I still had to spread everything myself during a battle. I think pre-spreading before a fight is what will make or break the game.
Thank you for this. The difference is more subtle than people have been theorycrafting and doesn't really force you to play very differently, at least from what I've experienced. However, as a spectator the difference is tremendous. Seeing the armies move a lot more naturally and not be in a ball the whole time makes it that much better. The terran troops moving and engaging and not in a perfect ball just looked really good. Also when terran retreated with their army, it was very obvious since they didn't instaball up.
It might be hard to see the difference from memory, but just take a look at the video in the op. As soon as you click anywhere on the map, those marines instantly ball up. When you compare, the difference is extremely obvious. I'm pretty happy with the results. More testing still needed though. Thank you.
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On July 04 2012 09:27 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 09:17 WickedBit wrote:On July 04 2012 09:13 sc2superfan101 wrote:
i would be pretty pissed when two seconds of looking away from the minerals means my three SCV lines are completely destroyed by storms/fungals. Build more base defense ? Be more alert ? Getting a good economy will be much harder now due to the harass options available and will take a lot more skill to do damage to your opponent and take lesser damage yourself. No more 2-3 bases on full saturation at 10 minutes and then balls colliding. meh. it would just completely change the game that i love, and not introduce any kind of higher skill cap. it might lower the skill cap, or maybe not raise it. but literally everything in the game would have to be rebalanced. the warp-prism would need a health/shield nerf (because now losing the warp-prism to a turret but saving the 1 HT would = dead mineral line) melee units would have to receive balance changes, maybe buffs, maybe nerfs. i'm not smart enough to figure out which, but they definitely wouldn't work the same. banelings would need a speed upgrade and a massive radius upgrade. chokes and ramps would need to be much larger because going near one would be suicide if your opponent has any of this buffed AOE. either that or you'd just have 30 minutes of sitting around waiting to get bored and run into death. im not saying that it wouldn't work, im just explainign that they would seriously have to change everything about the game. i get that people don't like the "deathball" but it works. no good pros just a-move, ever. and battles are rarely over after one engagement anymore. this thread would have been much more relevant back in 2011. edit: also expand first every game is boring to me.
Having such a thing has no affect on cheese/early pressure since its usually small army without aoe vs small army without aoe. It does not mean auto end of cheese.
Yes it is a big change which is why IMO it should happen in HOTS since its a new game, having its own beta, with new abilities and units which everyone will have to get used to anyways.
Yes pros don't a-move, I was just exaggerating a bit, but due to the pace of the battles there's less time for someone to do extra stuff.
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On July 04 2012 09:27 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 09:17 WickedBit wrote:On July 04 2012 09:13 sc2superfan101 wrote:
i would be pretty pissed when two seconds of looking away from the minerals means my three SCV lines are completely destroyed by storms/fungals. Build more base defense ? Be more alert ? Getting a good economy will be much harder now due to the harass options available and will take a lot more skill to do damage to your opponent and take lesser damage yourself. No more 2-3 bases on full saturation at 10 minutes and then balls colliding. meh. it would just completely change the game that i love, and not introduce any kind of higher skill cap. it might lower the skill cap, or maybe not raise it. but literally everything in the game would have to be rebalanced. the warp-prism would need a health/shield nerf (because now losing the warp-prism to a turret but saving the 1 HT would = dead mineral line) melee units would have to receive balance changes, maybe buffs, maybe nerfs. i'm not smart enough to figure out which, but they definitely wouldn't work the same. banelings would need a speed upgrade and a massive radius upgrade. chokes and ramps would need to be much larger because going near one would be suicide if your opponent has any of this buffed AOE. either that or you'd just have 30 minutes of sitting around waiting to get bored and run into death. im not saying that it wouldn't work, im just explainign that they would seriously have to change everything about the game. i get that people don't like the "deathball" but it works. no good pros just a-move, ever. and battles are rarely over after one engagement anymore. this thread would have been much more relevant back in 2011. edit: also expand first every game is boring to me.
if this change were to happen and players still allow a toss to get templar and robo tech early enough for a harass like that to do a ton of damage, then they have other things to worry about besides micro. as i said before this would make it easy for casual players and make games either alot shorter or alot longer. but as for pros, it would completly change the metagame and all matches will be very aggressive matches. your favorite turtle players (parting, goody, idra, etc...) will no longer be able to win until they start learning how to be aggressive off of one base (yes... zerg can be aggressive on 1 base. especially vs no wall terrans).
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holy crap! I can't believe it took us.... 2 years?! to find this out?
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On July 04 2012 09:39 LgNKami wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2012 09:27 sc2superfan101 wrote:On July 04 2012 09:17 WickedBit wrote:On July 04 2012 09:13 sc2superfan101 wrote:
i would be pretty pissed when two seconds of looking away from the minerals means my three SCV lines are completely destroyed by storms/fungals. Build more base defense ? Be more alert ? Getting a good economy will be much harder now due to the harass options available and will take a lot more skill to do damage to your opponent and take lesser damage yourself. No more 2-3 bases on full saturation at 10 minutes and then balls colliding. meh. it would just completely change the game that i love, and not introduce any kind of higher skill cap. it might lower the skill cap, or maybe not raise it. but literally everything in the game would have to be rebalanced. the warp-prism would need a health/shield nerf (because now losing the warp-prism to a turret but saving the 1 HT would = dead mineral line) melee units would have to receive balance changes, maybe buffs, maybe nerfs. i'm not smart enough to figure out which, but they definitely wouldn't work the same. banelings would need a speed upgrade and a massive radius upgrade. chokes and ramps would need to be much larger because going near one would be suicide if your opponent has any of this buffed AOE. either that or you'd just have 30 minutes of sitting around waiting to get bored and run into death. im not saying that it wouldn't work, im just explainign that they would seriously have to change everything about the game. i get that people don't like the "deathball" but it works. no good pros just a-move, ever. and battles are rarely over after one engagement anymore. this thread would have been much more relevant back in 2011. edit: also expand first every game is boring to me. if this change were to happen and players still allow a toss to get templar and robo tech early enough for a harass like that to do a ton of damage, then they have other things to worry about besides micro. as i said before this would make it easy for casual players and make games either alot shorter or alot longer. but as for pros, it would completly change the metagame and all matches will be very aggressive matches. your favorite turtle players (parting, goody, idra, etc...) will no longer be able to win until they start learning how to be aggressive off of one base (yes... zerg can be aggressive on 1 base. especially vs no wall terrans).
with one storm that can not only cover an entire mineral line, but destroy every worker, it wouldn't be a matter of early enough to harass like that, it would be viable at any time. this would only increase the turtle style. pro's wouldn't be more agressive as there would be no possible benefit to being more aggressive. wall off, turtle up, and as soon as you get AOE, on current maps, it would be impossible to attack you with any other way than drops.
also, what do you mean "let the toss get templar and robo tech" no pro just "lets" the opponent do anything, that's the whole point of the game. if they could do everything and keep their opponent from doing anything, you would see that every time. the only reason it looks like they "let" their opponent tech up is because it is impossible to stop it without sacrificing tech yourself.
i don't know why you think it would increase aggressiveness, or even if it did, why any terran would ever not wall-off if he knew 1 base aggression was the name of the game.
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The problem is not as simple as buffing AOE to compensate stuffs, you have to overhaul almost the whole game.
Imagine if you buff hellions to make it useful (because let's face it, if this goes through, hellion is gonna sucks), it's gonna be hell when you let hellions get into the mineral lines; or right now HT can kill the whole mineral lines with 2 storms, what happens if you buff aoe and damage? People are gonna cry so hard.
So to compensate that, you have to change the way mineral lines works, making the mineral patch bigger like BW, or change mineral patch position so that they have nice distance to each other.
So to compensate that, you have to work on the way workers harvest minerals, are we gonna need more workers to harvest faraway patches like BW, or we gonna make it so that workers mining far minerals will move faster than other?
Also to compensate mineral patch changes, you have to change maps. Every expansions on the map have to change so that it dthen again to compensate that, you have to change how the base look: ramp has to be wilder to make aoe less effective, base is bigger to accommodate more units,...
Don't forget that you have to change how air units work too. Bigger AOE is gonna own air units so hard with the way they work right now.
So, even though I'm curious to see how it turns out, I'm not really hyped or anything. Just hope that this thread will not turn into that 1gasperbase thread all over again.
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On July 04 2012 07:38 LgNKami wrote:
to all the protoss and zerg players bitching that this would make it too easy for terran, just think about it...
your banelings wont clump and die to 2 siege tank shots
your mutas wont get fucked by thors
your infestors wont clump and become useless after being emp'd
your 10 broodlords wont die to 3 archons in less than 5 seconds.
and for toss players:
your army wont lose over half its health after being emp'd by 2 ghosts because you attack moved your army and looked away.
the only benefits for terran the i see is:
less storm dodging
less splitting for tanks in tvt
less splitting for banelings
nothing else will really change.
just think a little bit before you decide to toss aside an idea (no pun intended)
So basically you are saying that this would make the game easier for each race. I agree, it does make it easier for everyone. This is what you want? All this does is lower the skill-cap required to play the game.
Just think a little before endoring an idea that lowers the skill-cap greatly and compromises sc2 as an eSport.
You don't think better players should be rewarded for splitting their army themselves?
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What if blizzard knew people would say that starcraft 2 was less mechanically demanding than brood war so they made it so you had to manually keep your army from clumping together so that it wont be instagibed by all the splash damage in the game o_O?
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EPT
