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On August 27 2012 10:12 FragRaptor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 05:54 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
How would the limited unit selection really help?
The Protoss colossus based deathball is probably the biggest offender, and it has the smallest unit count. Its the strong unit synergy and lack of good aoe that makes it a problem. Not sure, let's find out! Someone go make a map, don't change anything about SC2, just put in limited unit selection of 12 units. test it, see if it works.
Its NOT the 12 unit cap *sigh*
If you have BW with unlimited unit cap, it will still plays out beautifully and properly be more action packed too with their insane amount of harass units.
The problem lies in the unit. In Brood War, every units have multiple usage attached to them while StarCraft 2's units does what the game describe them to do. And then that's when interesting battle dynamics starts to form with a lot real time micro intensive decisions to take place.
Its like StarCraft 2 gives you around 4 options of what you can do with the units while in Brood War, you'll have like 10 or more.
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On August 27 2012 10:26 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 10:12 FragRaptor wrote:On August 27 2012 05:54 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
How would the limited unit selection really help?
The Protoss colossus based deathball is probably the biggest offender, and it has the smallest unit count. Its the strong unit synergy and lack of good aoe that makes it a problem. Not sure, let's find out! Someone go make a map, don't change anything about SC2, just put in limited unit selection of 12 units. test it, see if it works. Its NOT the 12 unit cap *sigh* If you have BW with unlimited unit cap, it will still plays out beautifully and properly be more action packed too with their insane amount of harass units. The problem lies in the unit. In Brood War, every units have multiple usage attached to them while StarCraft 2's units does what the game describe them to do. And then that's when interesting battle dynamics starts to form with a lot real time micro intensive decisions to take place. Its like StarCraft 2 gives you around 4 options of what you can do with the units while in Brood War, you'll have like 10 or more. Ok, that's another theory go try Bw with unlimited unit selection or vice versa make sc2 units more power full/as you see fit. Make a map, see if it breaks up the deathball like you say. Then get some replays and show the world.
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On July 02 2012 01:35 darkness wrote:
I think you missed to add the Viper - 'Abduct'.
Totally forgot about that too xD
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On August 27 2012 10:26 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 10:12 FragRaptor wrote:On August 27 2012 05:54 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
How would the limited unit selection really help?
The Protoss colossus based deathball is probably the biggest offender, and it has the smallest unit count. Its the strong unit synergy and lack of good aoe that makes it a problem. Not sure, let's find out! Someone go make a map, don't change anything about SC2, just put in limited unit selection of 12 units. test it, see if it works. Its NOT the 12 unit cap *sigh* If you have BW with unlimited unit cap, it will still plays out beautifully and properly be more action packed too with their insane amount of harass units. The problem lies in the unit. In Brood War, every units have multiple usage attached to them while StarCraft 2's units does what the game describe them to do. And then that's when interesting battle dynamics starts to form with a lot real time micro intensive decisions to take place. Its like StarCraft 2 gives you around 4 options of what you can do with the units while in Brood War, you'll have like 10 or more.
The limited unit selection IS part of the reason why BW has more strategic gameplay for the simple reason that it prevents the deathball ... even if the ground units didnt have their clunky collision movement. BW with unlimited unit selection will just end with huge air battles and whoever maxes his airforce of Mutas or anti-Mutas first will win. The importance of harrassing ends (speak: is reduced to very limited effect) the moment you can form the deathball, because the defender does NOT have a big enough defenders advantage to make up for the attacker hitting him in one strategic position.
You NEED a defenders advantage to discourage the deathball and Siege Tanks, Lurkers and Colossi (Reavers are much fairer=better because of their slow speed and inability to cliffwalk) should be the core of any defensive setup. Sadly SC2 has been balanced on Steppes of War and for the deathball, which resulted in the Siege Tank getting nerfed to the ground and you have to have ALL OF THEM in a fight to stand a chance to survive a full Zerg wave of units ... even though they can replenish any high tech units faster than Terrans. The fact that Zerg can run around a Terran army in circles didnt matter when there was only one attack path available and 12 tanks could cover the center of the map.
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3 units breaking the game atm.
infestor BL: this combo only works well when its together, and stops any micro from the opponent
Collsi: only good when in a large group. Remember the last time you saw a collsi drop? Then you have a good memory cause it was in beta.
Do Z/P need these units? definetly yes. The game is pretty damn balanced atm (If terran is korean =P ) but theese units make deathballs perform extremely well.
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On August 27 2012 15:51 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 10:26 Xiphos wrote:On August 27 2012 10:12 FragRaptor wrote:On August 27 2012 05:54 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
How would the limited unit selection really help?
The Protoss colossus based deathball is probably the biggest offender, and it has the smallest unit count. Its the strong unit synergy and lack of good aoe that makes it a problem. Not sure, let's find out! Someone go make a map, don't change anything about SC2, just put in limited unit selection of 12 units. test it, see if it works. Its NOT the 12 unit cap *sigh* If you have BW with unlimited unit cap, it will still plays out beautifully and properly be more action packed too with their insane amount of harass units. The problem lies in the unit. In Brood War, every units have multiple usage attached to them while StarCraft 2's units does what the game describe them to do. And then that's when interesting battle dynamics starts to form with a lot real time micro intensive decisions to take place. Its like StarCraft 2 gives you around 4 options of what you can do with the units while in Brood War, you'll have like 10 or more. The limited unit selection IS part of the reason why BW has more strategic gameplay for the simple reason that it prevents the deathball ... even if the ground units didnt have their clunky collision movement. BW with unlimited unit selection will just end with huge air battles and whoever maxes his airforce of Mutas or anti-Mutas first will win. The importance of harrassing ends (speak: is reduced to very limited effect) the moment you can form the deathball, because the defender does NOT have a big enough defenders advantage to make up for the attacker hitting him in one strategic position. You NEED a defenders advantage to discourage the deathball and Siege Tanks, Lurkers and Colossi (Reavers are much fairer=better because of their slow speed and inability to cliffwalk) should be the core of any defensive setup. Sadly SC2 has been balanced on Steppes of War and for the deathball, which resulted in the Siege Tank getting nerfed to the ground and you have to have ALL OF THEM in a fight to stand a chance to survive a full Zerg wave of units ... even though they can replenish any high tech units faster than Terrans. The fact that Zerg can run around a Terran army in circles didnt matter when there was only one attack path available and 12 tanks could cover the center of the map.
Yup. Deathballs existed in BW. They were called Protoss Deathballs, or in Korean terms, HanBangRush (한방러쉬). But no other race played like that.
Zergs would send wave after wave to whittle down the deathball, they would lose 1-2 bases but still be ahead economically, and neither side hardly ever reached 200/200. Terran would play positionally to stop the protoss deathball making it very cost efficient despite Terran usually having less economy.
Bad game design makes the best counter to Protoss Deathball == your own deathball. Bad design is bad. The MLG matches were very boring.
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On August 27 2012 15:51 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2012 10:26 Xiphos wrote:On August 27 2012 10:12 FragRaptor wrote:On August 27 2012 05:54 Monkeyballs25 wrote:
How would the limited unit selection really help?
The Protoss colossus based deathball is probably the biggest offender, and it has the smallest unit count. Its the strong unit synergy and lack of good aoe that makes it a problem. Not sure, let's find out! Someone go make a map, don't change anything about SC2, just put in limited unit selection of 12 units. test it, see if it works. Its NOT the 12 unit cap *sigh* If you have BW with unlimited unit cap, it will still plays out beautifully and properly be more action packed too with their insane amount of harass units. The problem lies in the unit. In Brood War, every units have multiple usage attached to them while StarCraft 2's units does what the game describe them to do. And then that's when interesting battle dynamics starts to form with a lot real time micro intensive decisions to take place. Its like StarCraft 2 gives you around 4 options of what you can do with the units while in Brood War, you'll have like 10 or more. The limited unit selection IS part of the reason why BW has more strategic gameplay for the simple reason that it prevents the deathball ... even if the ground units didnt have their clunky collision movement. BW with unlimited unit selection will just end with huge air battles and whoever maxes his airforce of Mutas or anti-Mutas first will win. The importance of harrassing ends (speak: is reduced to very limited effect) the moment you can form the deathball, because the defender does NOT have a big enough defenders advantage to make up for the attacker hitting him in one strategic position. You NEED a defenders advantage to discourage the deathball and Siege Tanks, Lurkers and Colossi (Reavers are much fairer=better because of their slow speed and inability to cliffwalk) should be the core of any defensive setup. Sadly SC2 has been balanced on Steppes of War and for the deathball, which resulted in the Siege Tank getting nerfed to the ground and you have to have ALL OF THEM in a fight to stand a chance to survive a full Zerg wave of units ... even though they can replenish any high tech units faster than Terrans. The fact that Zerg can run around a Terran army in circles didnt matter when there was only one attack path available and 12 tanks could cover the center of the map.
Well, the defenders advantage is one way to discourage deathball play. Another one would be that the game had more units that grow "logarithmic" in strength, unlike the hordes of superstrong longranged "exponential" growers in SC2.
More splash, more abilities (or other forms of micro) that have to be used for full effect, but you can't in big balls, less range, bigger unit sizes all have an effect to break up deathballs, if used right.
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Unlimited unit selection does promote death ball play, however you can remove it and still have death ball play or you can keep it and make some other changes to reduce that. Brood War is so mechanically difficult that the 12 unit limit is really significant, however, if you add it to SC2 then the macro etc. is so easy that this minor mechanical increase in difficulty won't be noticed almost.
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Wouldn't one of the more logical and simple solutions be to have more units with some splash damage in them to help dissuade people from death balling?
I don't believe multiple unit selection should be removed just to address the problem, it's simply too useful and feels like artificial hampering of the player.
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On August 27 2012 17:38 Grumbels wrote:
Unlimited unit selection does promote death ball play, however you can remove it and still have death ball play or you can keep it and make some other changes to reduce that. Brood War is so mechanically difficult that the 12 unit limit is really significant, however, if you add it to SC2 then the macro etc. is so easy that this minor mechanical increase in difficulty won't be noticed almost.
Well it won't be noticed by Protoss, because they have so few units. But, It will make Bio much harder to control because of the amount of units. Not to mention alot of the micro involved in Bio that your obligated to do in order to make it effective. And in even worse case, Zergs who make Lings. I don't say Zerg in general, because Blizzard has made Zerg to pretty much be as supply heavy as Protoss in SC2.
Adding this change will affect the visuall appearence of the death ball. But, It doen't change the fact that all we'll see are a few huge engagements. To combat this issue we need to buff splash, and nerf deathball units.
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I believe a big part of the problem is SC2 has less rewards for good micro, weaker AOE units in certain situations, less harssment options for some matchups, and to some degree unlimited selection.
We aren't losing unlimited selection, so what can be done otherwise?
Let's take something we already have with no changes to the game to see if you can break up deathballs with the tools the game provides. A perfect example is the infestor with it's very powerful AOE spell, fungal growth, vs. Terran.
The infestor is so great against terrans because it causes Terran to not ball up his marines. This creates more micro, prevents deathballs and it encourages harassment and drop play (naturallyTerran harassment drops are pretty good, too). It's no surprise that many people consider ZvT to be a fun matchup to watch. It has plenty of action and it is rarely over after one battle.
On the flip side, mutas and speedlings are also very good at harassment, which allows Zerg to split up his army and be effective in many matchups.
Protoss AOE is strange. Colossi and high templar are slow moving, which often prevents you from splitting them apart from your ball because they'll be picked off... encouraging a ball. With harassment Protoss seems to be the red headed stepchild, as there are less opportunities to harass.
Is HOTS doing something about this? Recall early in the game will allow Protoss to split armies and harass hopefully. Apparently current Terran is considered non-ball play because they are getting more ball options vs P at least... maybe it will encourage new non-ball play from P. Zerg... they are getting some holes filled in other areas. HOTS is trying, but it needs to try harder... let's see how it goes.
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About the Tempest. I don't think anyone will ever build one in a progame :p. Tempests are like the most stupid unit ever invented. Weak, expensive, retarded.
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On August 27 2012 23:05 Cabinet Sanchez wrote:
Wouldn't one of the more logical and simple solutions be to have more units with some splash damage in them to help dissuade people from death balling?
I don't believe multiple unit selection should be removed just to address the problem, it's simply too useful and feels like artificial hampering of the player.
More units with splash damage will still result in deathballs ... just the one with better "spread micro" wins. We already have that with the Baneling. The good solution to get rid of the deathball is to "fix" the unit movement to make it POSSIBLE (not mandatory!!!) to move with your units spread out AND to increase the AoE potential of defensive units like the Siege Tank (and the Lurker ... which would be an acceptable unit after the movement change). Protoss dont need a defensive unit and should instead use Forcefields to "shape the battleground to their advantage".
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On July 02 2012 01:16 Snoodles wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2012 01:07 xsnac wrote:
I dont understand why ppl dont like deathball ? a big battle with high tier units is the best thing you can ask for if you are a spectator . Are you serious? As a spectator when I'm watching a ZvP I tab out for a few minutes because everything in the first 10 minutes is just watching two guys macro.
rofl are you serious? builds, decision-making, countering, scouting, strategy, tactics build orders to maximize the strats tactics etc etc are the best thing about watching sc2... not some stupid "LAZOORS AND SWARM LIGHTNING IS FUN XDXDXD"-battle. the execution of a lategame battle (unless it's very well thougt out, mindgamed or anything similar to it) is the least interesting to watch because the game is usually over way before "BIG BATTLE OF DEATHKILL" even begins.
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If they maximize the number of units we can select/group, I will leave this game forever, since it was the only downside of warcraft 3 (+pathfinding).
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I really hope that Blizzard takes this issue seriously (though I doubt they will) because if they don't manage to do something about the death ball I think Starcraft II will lose many spectators, myself included. Spectating WoL is at the moment just a huge yawn, and it's mostly the fault of Collosi, and Infestor + BL. No surprise that PvZ is the most boring MU to watch.
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Well, tempests do have potential. If they are priced right.
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The deathball exists because it's dangerous for most units to venture far away from the base on their own. To some extent the Protoss oracle and mothership core will solve it, but for Protoss the effect is most exaggerated because the colossus can sit on top of other units making a certain size area of units have much more strength in the same amount of space.
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On August 28 2012 00:22 labbe wrote:
I really hope that Blizzard takes this issue seriously (though I doubt they will) because if they don't manage to do something about the death ball I think Starcraft II will lose many spectators, myself included. Spectating WoL is at the moment just a huge yawn, and it's mostly the fault of Collosi, and Infestor + BL. No surprise that PvZ is the most boring MU to watch.
Bliz IS trying to address this. They are just approaching it all wrong. Worsening the AI and limiting unit selection IS the easiest way to fix this but bliz is adamant on not doing this to make the game more accessible.
Instead they are trying to add units to pull food out of the deathball (like the oracle or even the tempest does this.. its crazy range means you need to control them from a far and away from your deathball). However the hard part is developing a unit that is worth investing your resources / food into for other uses rather than adding more cols or archons or whatever to the deathball. Idon't think the tempest fullfils this like how DwmC_Foefen said.. Oracle def could but you would only realistically need 1 or 2 on the field so its not that much food.. kinda like a warp prism. Window mine is a good example of space controlling units that pulls food from your army.
Were gonna just have to wait and see......
Also on a side note people say that adding limited unit selection is not going to stop the deathball. Yes your correct. The greatest players with the APM will still be able to pull off the deathball. However in lower leagues deathballs arn't gonna be an issue at all.
It'll also GREATLY increase the skill ceiling for the game and will truly separate the pros from the noobs. The great thing in bw is that you need to be smart and fast. You can easily get to D+/C- with 120ish APM but with a solid game sense. You can also hit that with monster APM and no game sense. However what will allow you to push yourself further will be a combo of both raw mechanics and strategy. Having all the knowledge in the world is useless if you can't execute it. And similarly having all the mechanics is moot without knowing what to do with it. Obv this isn't a perfect science but it kinda follows these guidelines
I want it in, but lets be real... bliz is never going to cave.
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On August 28 2012 05:02 tehemperorer wrote:
The deathball exists because it's dangerous for most units to venture far away from the base on their own. To some extent the Protoss oracle and mothership core will solve it, but for Protoss the effect is most exaggerated because the colossus can sit on top of other units making a certain size area of units have much more strength in the same amount of space.
That unit overlap is a very small part of the death ball problem. It's true that the colossus is the main offender leading to protoss death balls, but it is for an entirely different reason.
The colossus is a super strong unit in the toss arsenal. Most of their other units do very low DPS, and the colossus eclipses almost every one of them, PLUS it has splash. This means that protosses usually need to build them in order to deal with masses of tier one units from the other races.
Now obviously Blizzard is going to put a weakness on a unit with such huge damage potential. But by making the Colossus vulnerable to anti-air attacks, it means that the colossus can never be on the map by itself. And due to the unbelievable DPS of the colossus, the opponent will always be ready to make these air units, whether they are corruptors, mutas, vikings, or even banshees. (In PvP this doesn't happen because stargate units are rather bad for this, and that's why long games become a count of who has the most colossi.)
That means it must always be accompanied by stalkers in order to protect it from air units. And then these stalkers would be massacred by lings/marauders, so you need zealots too. And all of this is to protect the real damage dealer, the colossus.And these balls run rampant because Blizzard chose to make colossi weak to air, instead of making them super slow. This means all of the units move around at respectable pace, so there is barely any micro to keeping the ball together.
I know Blizzard was just trying to come up with a unique weakness for the colossus. But they inadvertently made deathballs a huge problem, because they literally forced protoss to use them. (and don't get me started on how the weakness of the colossus also destroyed the viability of protoss air.)
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EPT
