EPT[HOTS] Breaking up the Death Ball - Page 15
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Windwaker
Germany1597 Posts
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Darneck
Sweden1394 Posts
On July 03 2012 17:43 iky43210 wrote: It's not as easy as you make it out to be. sc2 was internally tested for many months, and beta was tested for 6 months, yet the game still came out extremely imbalance and took many patches of fine tuning to get to where we are today. RTS balancing truly takes alot of effort and time that I don't think its festible trying to maintain two mode I don't think it's going to be easy at all but I definitely think it would be doable and the tournament mode would be greatly influenced by the pros, a lot more than it is today and it would be a lot easier for blizzard to balance the other mode when they could basically exclusively focus on balancing it for more casual play. Once you get it right or even close to right there's nothing left that has to be done | ||
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sunprince
United States2258 Posts
On July 03 2012 16:29 Falling wrote: Some things are not just technical limitations, some are actually design choices. I would argue that smart casting/ not smart casting and overkill/ no overkill tanks are all design choices. Again, why even have spells in a strategy game if we don't like mechanics and just want strategy? Plus things like expanding the magic box isn't making things worse, but adding more options- you can clump units or spread them out. Your choice. Whoever said we need a formation button, please no. Player control, not preset automation please. Automation creates a pre-ordained way of doing things and it's hard to expand beyond the set way. Player control, while harder provides greater flexibility. (But I'm not sure 12-24 unit selection would be at the top of any of my lists of things to add to SC2.) I didn't suggest we need a formation button. I merely pointed out that other RTS's which automatically clump your units also allow you to automatically unclump them (via spread formations). Since we don't have formation buttons (nor should we), then units should not automatically clump the way they currently do in SC2. | ||
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Roth
Germany165 Posts
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hashaki
Norway210 Posts
In order to break up the deathball the game has to reward small skrimishes, holding severral strategic positions on the map (a watchtower is not a strategic position, and if holding one position is enough, then a deathball can hold it), punish big clumps of units harder etc. Currently SC2 does very little of this, if anything at all. You can keep talking about this and that to help deal with the issue, but it's not gonna change the fact that the way SC2 was designed, fighting one fight with one big ball of units is rewarded. Don't like it? Go play Company of Heroes in wait for COH2 to be released  | ||
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ysnake
Bosnia-Herzegovina261 Posts
I agree on the fact that skirmishes need to be rewarded, I so want that, it is essential especially in the lower leagues. If "imma get a deathball and win" mentality can be overthrown, we would see a much much fun game. Whatever the fix might be, different maps, less resources at the bases, units not clumping up, although, I would NOT want to see limited control groups, as I, myself, use 4 to 6 different control groups for units, I can't imagine not being able to manouver my Zerglings around. Comparing BW to SC2 pathing is not good, as they are very, VERY different, especially in the design of the game. Although, buffing AoE damage means even more efficient turtling, which is bad. | ||
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sunprince
United States2258 Posts
On July 03 2012 18:05 hashaki wrote: To everyone who thinks deathballsyndrome has anything to do with stuff like unit clumping, unlimited unit selection etc.. Are you guys retarded? Deathballs exist because that type of play is rewarded. If sitting in your own base building up a massive force is rewarded, that's what's gonna happen. This type of play is rewarded because AoEs were heavily nerfed to account for the fact that units auto-clump (making it too difficult to properly spread). If auto-clumping were removed, and clumping only happens manually, then AoEs could be buffed back to where they should be. | ||
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Rabiator
Germany3948 Posts
On July 03 2012 18:05 hashaki wrote: Deathballs exist because that type of play is rewarded. Nope ... they exist because a) they are made possible by the movement AI (BW never had a ground deathball ... only flyers) AND b) there is no risk involved (pitiful AoE damage). | ||
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submarine
Germany290 Posts
Just search for it in custom games. I really like it. | ||
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Darneck
Sweden1394 Posts
On July 03 2012 19:00 sunprince wrote: This type of play is rewarded because AoEs were heavily nerfed to account for the fact that units auto-clump (making it too difficult to properly spread). If auto-clumping were removed, and clumping only happens manually, then AoEs could be buffed back to where they should be. This is exactly what I wish would happen | ||
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Zrana
United Kingdom698 Posts
On July 03 2012 19:00 sunprince wrote: This type of play is rewarded because AoEs were heavily nerfed to account for the fact that units auto-clump (making it too difficult to properly spread). If auto-clumping were removed, and clumping only happens manually, then AoEs could be buffed back to where they should be. But you could just buff AoE and make the players spread manually. | ||
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Darneck
Sweden1394 Posts
On July 03 2012 20:26 Zrana wrote: But you could just buff AoE and make the players spread manually. The way it is right now it wouldn't work, hence they were nerfed because the auto clumping just happens way too easily compared to how you can spread them. 1 move and they are basically clumped again now in the current state | ||
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branflakes14
2082 Posts
On July 03 2012 20:26 Zrana wrote: But you could just buff AoE and make the players spread manually. You can't realistically spread manually in this game to prevent AoE spells, there isn't anywhere near enough time. And then when you go back to attack, everything bunches back together again. It'd get to a point where you'd start wishing the game had a 12 unit selection cap. | ||
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Darneck
Sweden1394 Posts
On July 03 2012 20:33 branflakes14 wrote: You can't realistically spread manually in this game to prevent AoE spells, there isn't anywhere near enough time. And then when you go back to attack, everything bunches back together again. It'd get to a point where you'd start wishing the game had a 12 unit selection cap. For me that point is already here. I wish so much for something that would make the game mechanically harder and would also discourage 1a into gg | ||
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Adrenal6land
United States46 Posts
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
On July 03 2012 20:36 Darneck wrote: For me that point is already here. I wish so much for something that would make the game mechanically harder and would also discourage 1a into gg If you want APM sinks, there are a lot of things that can be done to make the game mechanically challenging! Cut MBS! Cut auto-mine! Implement a 12 unit cap! But seriously, I don't think unit selection is the issue. Even if you can select all your units in a single control group, it's how units function within the game that's the issue. I think the pathing change suggestion is brilliant. It is simple to implement and it radically changes how the game can be played - for the better. If you want to clump your units up, ok - but deathballs should be destroyed by AOE. At this point in the game's lifetime all sources of AOE have been nerfed hardcore due to the clumping in the pathing engine. Which causes deathballs. Players need to be punished if they clump up units. And right now the game does so after every fucking click. We punish that with high damage AOE. There are two roads - the incredibly painful one that isn't likely to be implemented (high damage AOE with the current pathing system), and one that is much more tolerable (no auto-clump, allowing for higher damage AOE). Removing the giant unit blob like that would make the game much more challenging IMO. Allowing for multiple engagements, spacial control, fighting around the map in pursuit of strategic objectives - all things with more multitasking involved. Like you, I would also like to see more APM sinks implemented to make the game more mechanically challenging. But the issue at hand is the auto-clump deathball. And the only way to stop that is to have harsh consequences for clumping. | ||
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Lurk
Germany359 Posts
Strong and unforgiving AoE would prevent the deathball from being effective, so you could hold a strategic point with a few AoE units against a superior force (at least temporarily). Just think of bottlenecks like in '300', when quantity is just not the answer. Some of you people complain that manually spreading out the units to circumvent the AoE is impossible, but that is exactly the point. If preventing the deathball is the goal here, you are simply not supposed to attack with all your units at the same place. If you do nonetheless, you are supposed to take a severe punishment in the form of brutal AoE, whether you spread out your units somehow or not. Instead, find other avenues of attack, do a simultaneous drop with some units, flank the enemy at another position or simply leave some units at home to thward off counter-drops. I agree though, that the current maps are often not open enough for such play but that's a problem easily fixed. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
On July 03 2012 21:49 Lurk wrote: I think you guys are mistaking two different things for one. Deathball syndrome is not only that all units are physically clumped up into one big ball, it's also that all military units of one player are concentrated on one particular area of the map and not split into two smaller armies. While the first one is certainly connected to the new pathing and auto-clumping AI, the latter is definately not. Strong and unforgiving AoE would prevent the deathball from being effective, so you could hold a strategic point with a few AoE units against a superior force (at least temporarily). Just think of bottlenecks like in '300', when quantity is just not the answer. Some of you people complain that manually spreading out the units to circumvent the AoE is impossible, but that is exactly the point. If preventing the deathball is the goal here, you are simply not supposed to attack with all your units at the same place. If you do nonetheless, you are supposed to take a severe punishment in the form of brutal AoE, whether you spread out your units somehow or not. Instead, find other avenues of attack, do a simultaneous drop with some units, flank the enemy at another position or simply leave some units at home to thward off counter-drops. I agree though, that the current maps are often not open enough for such play but that's a problem easily fixed. What I've been saying is that strong AOE is the answer to preventing the "giant balls of shit that run around the map in a clusterfuck." But Blizzard will not implement strong AOE with the current pathing system. In fact, they've nerfed it! The two issues are connected. Spreading out the units after EVERY click to circumvent AOE is not impossible, but it's pretty fucking difficult. If AOE damage sources were increased with the current system then it would make it impossible - limiting gameplay. You WANT to see units spread out. But auto-clump is a fucking hassle, leading to deathballs. And deathballs = weak AOE to compensate. I'm afraid the two are connected and you really can't have one without the other (I've been thinking about this a lot lol). | ||
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wcr.4fun
Belgium686 Posts
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Ryder.
1117 Posts
On July 03 2012 17:29 Darneck wrote: Not if you do it in the way that I've suggested earlier in the thread and simply add a tournament mode and ladder with the seperate changes to balance and mechanics while still keeping the current game that blizzard likes. And just simply focusing on the strategic department is just bad, there needs to be something else too to seperate the best players from the other and the level of strategy is still just as high and higher even at the highest level no matter the more difficult mechanics. I'm sorry but this is simply a terrible idea. Why would you have two different games depending merely on whether you in tournament or ladder? How do you think players practise for tournament? Yes that's right on ladder. And what is classified as tournament? Just big lans like MLG? Or online tournaments such as playhem? Not to mention its a huge barrier of entry for upcoming pros. Sorry but for people to have efficient practise you need consistency. You can't just expect people to play two completely different games when they are laddering compared to when they are playing tournaments. | ||
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