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On June 26 2012 01:08 Oproer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 00:57 IdrA wrote:
hey you companies who support esports
how dare you want something in return
you fuckers. You get all your sponsored stuff for free. Good for you. What do you think these companies want in return? They want for us to buy their stuff. Do I need an Eizo monitor, a Epson projector, a Razer mouse, Kingston HyperX memory and all the other stuff they're advertising? Not really.. So I can't offer those companies anything other than my money.. I like my money. I'd rather not spend it on something I already have "for ESPORTS". The sponsoring market is too saturated.. It's like 6 drones on 1 geyser.. The ROI is too low for these companies..
you will need a monitor, a mouse, memory, and so will everyone else watching.
allowing the sponsors to show you their products is what funds the tournaments you like watching. deal with it.
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My conclusion:
Advertisement is a necessary evil. There's no reason to embrace it..
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its what provides most of the money that supports our community. you should embrace the shit out of it.
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On June 26 2012 01:53 Oproer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 01:49 Fueled wrote:I watch SC2 for entertainment, right? Sponsors don't always entertain me (except the ones from EG since they're awesome and Machine is awesome as well) and they bring the enjoyment factor down. Can you actually argue against this?
Advertisement is something you usually have to endure, and not something that entertains you? Almost every single form of entertainment has some sort of Sponsor related ad. Whether it be watching TV, going to the movies, going to a pro sporting event, you'll always see some sort ad/commercial promoting the sponsors. Isn't it tragic? 
How is it? They help the event happen in the first place, you must be really selfish and unthankful if you can't even handle a banner or something similiar... Do you think it's tragic that you have to work for your money aswell or what?
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On June 26 2012 01:36 FreudianTrip wrote:
Never implied any of the stuff outside of it either but I guess you could have taken a couple of my arguments that way so I'll extrapolate. I never meant to imply that you cannot or should not discuss these things. I simply asked myself rhetorically (at least I thought) WHY you would want to. I've done PR (well less PR and more Sales), I spent a year trying to find new ways we could spin our shit so that people would switch to nPower instead of our competitors. It's boring, it's hard work and 99.99999999999999% of the time your ideas suck ass and work in the real world about as well as a QWOP runner.
Let me put this a little different way, Companies have many many options on where to spend their marketing dollars.
Companies are risk adverse and do not like wasting money, so they tend to stick with established proven areas.
Given that esports has a way to go before it becomes an established advertising outlet there is a challenge in convincing companies to spend money at events, and there is a challenge in figuring out how to get the most out of the available screen time and screen real estate that is available.
If I work in the marketing dept. of a potential sponsor I probably want to spend a little time visiting a place like TL.net the central mecca of SC2. Maybe I look at a thread about advertising(since this is my Industry) and I see one of two things.
1. A thread with a bunch of ideas on marketing, some good, some bad but maybe there are a couple gems in there that this marketing person can run with one or two. Either way it is nice that the community is spending some time thinking about how to make the marketing person's life easier even if it bears no fruit. Maybe it is the little thing that tips the balance and makes the decision to take a chance on SC2. It doesn't hurt.
2. A thread about how marketers are the devil, how we will never spend any money on any of these products we don't buy anything we don't want to pay for anything we don't want to look at adds, and we shouldn't try to help those marketing ghouls. This doesn't help.
So if you enjoy the countless hours of free entertainment we have all received through streams, tournaments and TL forum chat suck it up and don't complain about adds, or at least go complain about adds in a different forum thread so those who wish to throw some ideas out there can do so in peace.
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If you dislike advertising you still don't have to buy the stuff from sponsors. I like the fact that you can get a lot of stuff for free because of ads, and quite often there is a choice to pay as well. For SC2 seeing some small logos in the scorescreen isn't the most traumatizing thing either.
So ofc sponsors are needed for SC2 to grow and for tournaments to exist. I think promoting the sponsors more (as long as it's not blocking my view of gameplay) is a good thing because I will get a bigger sport for less money spent.
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What came first, the community or the sponsors?
Alright, let's say we embrace the sponsors and be grateful for their sponsorship and for keeping this community alive with their tournaments and pro-players like our beloved IdrA. Does the sponsor have any obligation towards us, or do we just have an obligation towards them?
Can we ask those sponsors to not go overboard and stay away from advertising inside the game like in-game billboards, or rotating Pepsi logo's on a battlefield? Can we ask the sponsors to limit themselves to a specified percentage of stream-screen estate in a specified banner, so we can keep enjoying the game, or is that too much to ask for?
Advertisers will keep pushing the limits of good taste and I think this has been proven over time, right? They will want to keep expanding their influence, but should there not be a force that pushes them back?
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On June 26 2012 02:16 Oproer wrote:
My conclusion:
Advertisement is a necessary evil. There's no reason to embrace it..
How is Advertising Evil
It in no way hurts you to look at logos either in between breaks or on overlays.
making money isn't wrong it is what keeps our economy running
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On June 26 2012 02:34 mechavoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 01:36 FreudianTrip wrote:
Never implied any of the stuff outside of it either but I guess you could have taken a couple of my arguments that way so I'll extrapolate. I never meant to imply that you cannot or should not discuss these things. I simply asked myself rhetorically (at least I thought) WHY you would want to. I've done PR (well less PR and more Sales), I spent a year trying to find new ways we could spin our shit so that people would switch to nPower instead of our competitors. It's boring, it's hard work and 99.99999999999999% of the time your ideas suck ass and work in the real world about as well as a QWOP runner.
Let me put this a little different way, Companies have many many options on where to spend their marketing dollars. Companies are risk adverse and do not like wasting money, so they tend to stick with established proven areas. Given that esports has a way to go before it becomes an established advertising outlet there is a challenge in convincing companies to spend money at events, and there is a challenge in figuring out how to get the most out of the available screen time and screen real estate that is available. If I work in the marketing dept. of a potential sponsor I probably want to spend a little time visiting a place like TL.net the central mecca of SC2. Maybe I look at a thread about advertising(since this is my Industry) and I see one of two things. 1. A thread with a bunch of ideas on marketing, some good, some bad but maybe there are a couple gems in there that this marketing person can run with one or two. Either way it is nice that the community is spending some time thinking about how to make the marketing person's life easier even if it bears no fruit. Maybe it is the little thing that tips the balance and makes the decision to take a chance on SC2. It doesn't hurt. 2. A thread about how marketers are the devil, how we will never spend any money on any of these products we don't buy anything we don't want to pay for anything we don't want to look at adds, and we shouldn't try to help those marketing ghouls. This doesn't help.
So if you enjoy the countless hours of free entertainment we have all received through streams, tournaments and TL forum chat suck it up and don't complain about adds, or at least go complain about adds in a different forum thread so those who wish to throw some ideas out there can do so in peace.
God fucking damnit. This is like the 8th time someone has quoted one of my posts and said this. Do you people just not read or are you trying to twist my point of view to make it sound like I'm some crazy belligerent outlier that smells weird and walks around wearing a tin-foil hat? Because it's definitely one of the two.
Not one fucking person has come up with a single idea that creates a new type of awareness with-in eSports. All that's been pushed is the same 3 fucking ideas that always get pushed and they're bad ideas. The reason they haven't been incorporated is because they don't create extra awareness they just create more of the same awareness. And you aren't going to negotiate a raise on your advertising contract by saying to your sponsor, "Yeah we're going to show your logo for an extra 3 seconds every half an hour. Gimme another 20k"
That's not how it works. If a logo is surrounded by 10 other logos it loses it's effectiveness so it's a bad idea in that way, if it's a one brand tournament, let's take ZOTAC Cups or Playhem Dailys as an example. An extra ZOTAC or Playhem logo on the map isn't creating anymore brand awareness than before so you're not going to pay extra to receive said sponsorship.
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On June 26 2012 02:34 mechavoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 01:36 FreudianTrip wrote:
Never implied any of the stuff outside of it either but I guess you could have taken a couple of my arguments that way so I'll extrapolate. I never meant to imply that you cannot or should not discuss these things. I simply asked myself rhetorically (at least I thought) WHY you would want to. I've done PR (well less PR and more Sales), I spent a year trying to find new ways we could spin our shit so that people would switch to nPower instead of our competitors. It's boring, it's hard work and 99.99999999999999% of the time your ideas suck ass and work in the real world about as well as a QWOP runner.
... 2. A thread about how marketers are the devil, how we will never spend any money on any of these products we don't buy anything we don't want to pay for anything we don't want to look at adds, and we shouldn't try to help those marketing ghouls. This doesn't help.
I don't like this way of thinking. No negativity about sponsors allowed because we might hurt their feelings?
I have nothing against finding ways to increase exposure for sponsors, but for instance having an entire industry dependent on e.g. sponsors money from unhealthy snackfood companies isn't the greatest thing also.
On June 26 2012 02:39 FreudianTrip wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 02:34 mechavoc wrote:On June 26 2012 01:36 FreudianTrip wrote:
Never implied any of the stuff outside of it either but I guess you could have taken a couple of my arguments that way so I'll extrapolate. I never meant to imply that you cannot or should not discuss these things. I simply asked myself rhetorically (at least I thought) WHY you would want to. I've done PR (well less PR and more Sales), I spent a year trying to find new ways we could spin our shit so that people would switch to nPower instead of our competitors. It's boring, it's hard work and 99.99999999999999% of the time your ideas suck ass and work in the real world about as well as a QWOP runner.
Let me put this a little different way, Companies have many many options on where to spend their marketing dollars. Companies are risk adverse and do not like wasting money, so they tend to stick with established proven areas. Given that esports has a way to go before it becomes an established advertising outlet there is a challenge in convincing companies to spend money at events, and there is a challenge in figuring out how to get the most out of the available screen time and screen real estate that is available. If I work in the marketing dept. of a potential sponsor I probably want to spend a little time visiting a place like TL.net the central mecca of SC2. Maybe I look at a thread about advertising(since this is my Industry) and I see one of two things. 1. A thread with a bunch of ideas on marketing, some good, some bad but maybe there are a couple gems in there that this marketing person can run with one or two. Either way it is nice that the community is spending some time thinking about how to make the marketing person's life easier even if it bears no fruit. Maybe it is the little thing that tips the balance and makes the decision to take a chance on SC2. It doesn't hurt. 2. A thread about how marketers are the devil, how we will never spend any money on any of these products we don't buy anything we don't want to pay for anything we don't want to look at adds, and we shouldn't try to help those marketing ghouls. This doesn't help.
So if you enjoy the countless hours of free entertainment we have all received through streams, tournaments and TL forum chat suck it up and don't complain about adds, or at least go complain about adds in a different forum thread so those who wish to throw some ideas out there can do so in peace. God fucking damnit. This is like the 8th time someone has quoted one of my posts and said this. Do you people just not read or are you trying to twist my point of view to make it sound like I'm some crazy belligerent outlier that smells weird and walks around wearing a tin-foil hat? Because it's definitely one of the two.
All your posts in this thread are weird, so maybe that's why.
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On June 26 2012 02:36 Oproer wrote:
What came first, the community or the sponsors?
Alright, let's say we embrace the sponsors and be grateful for their sponsorship and for keeping this community alive with their tournaments and pro-players like our beloved IdrA. Does the sponsor have any obligation towards us, or do we just have an obligation towards them?
Can we ask those sponsors to not go overboard and stay away from advertising inside the game like in-game billboards, or rotating Pepsi logo's on a battlefield? Can we ask the sponsors to limit themselves to a specified percentage of stream-screen estate in a specified banner, so we can keep enjoying the game, or is that too much to ask for?
Advertisers will keep pushing the limits of good taste and I think this has been proven over time, right? They will want to keep expanding their influence, but should there not be a force that pushes them back?
Their obligation to us is to pay for the players salaries, pay for the players to practice, pay the venues, the casters, the satellite trucks that beam us MLG and Dreamhack.
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On June 26 2012 02:36 Oproer wrote:
What came first, the community or the sponsors?
Alright, let's say we embrace the sponsors and be grateful for their sponsorship and for keeping this community alive with their tournaments and pro-players like our beloved IdrA. Does the sponsor have any obligation towards us, or do we just have an obligation towards them?
Can we ask those sponsors to not go overboard and stay away from advertising inside the game like in-game billboards, or rotating Pepsi logo's on a battlefield? Can we ask the sponsors to limit themselves to a specified percentage of stream-screen estate in a specified banner, so we can keep enjoying the game, or is that too much to ask for?
Advertisers will keep pushing the limits of good taste and I think this has been proven over time, right? They will want to keep expanding their influence, but should there not be a force that pushes them back?
Sure, let's fuck the sponsors! We'll pay for everything ourselves. Remember that MKP flight fundraiser to MLG? Let's do that for every player. MLG's will have to start charging us $50 PPV, GSL will have a $5,000 prize pool unless they want to degrade their finals venue and production, Dreamhack can go die because they do everything off of sponsors and every team can also find a non-existent way to sustain themselves.
There shouldn't be a force that pushes them back. Why? Because they are the engine, driving our scene forward. The more money there is in our scene, the better content we can produce. Better content means more viewers which means mainstream coverage.
Idiots like you are literally destroying the scene. By not supporting sponsors you're literally hurting eSports.
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On June 26 2012 02:17 IdrA wrote:
its what provides most of the money that supports our community. you should embrace the shit out of it.
Support them? Sure. Embrace them? Maybe. Bend over and let them make my their bitch by forcing me to put their sponsor tag in my Sc2 name? No. Emphatically No.
As a fan of starcraft for well over a decade, the last thing I want to hear/see when I open a tournament is "Spawning in the bottom left we have Coca-Cola's champion, Coke'Idra, and over here in the top right we have Pepsi's champion Pepsi'Huk."
On June 26 2012 02:36 Oproer wrote:
What came first, the community or the sponsors?
Alright, let's say we embrace the sponsors and be grateful for their sponsorship and for keeping this community alive with their tournaments and pro-players like our beloved IdrA. Does the sponsor have any obligation towards us, or do we just have an obligation towards them?
Can we ask those sponsors to not go overboard and stay away from advertising inside the game like in-game billboards, or rotating Pepsi logo's on a battlefield? Can we ask the sponsors to limit themselves to a specified percentage of stream-screen estate in a specified banner, so we can keep enjoying the game, or is that too much to ask for?
Advertisers will keep pushing the limits of good taste and I think this has been proven over time, right? They will want to keep expanding their influence, but should there not be a force that pushes them back?
This is why there needs to be a line somewhere. Advertisers don't give money because they love you and want you to watch Sc2. They give it because they want you to watch their advertisements and buy their stuff. I do think they need more exposure than they are currently getting though.
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On June 26 2012 02:41 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 02:34 mechavoc wrote:On June 26 2012 01:36 FreudianTrip wrote:
Never implied any of the stuff outside of it either but I guess you could have taken a couple of my arguments that way so I'll extrapolate. I never meant to imply that you cannot or should not discuss these things. I simply asked myself rhetorically (at least I thought) WHY you would want to. I've done PR (well less PR and more Sales), I spent a year trying to find new ways we could spin our shit so that people would switch to nPower instead of our competitors. It's boring, it's hard work and 99.99999999999999% of the time your ideas suck ass and work in the real world about as well as a QWOP runner.
... 2. A thread about how marketers are the devil, how we will never spend any money on any of these products we don't buy anything we don't want to pay for anything we don't want to look at adds, and we shouldn't try to help those marketing ghouls. This doesn't help. I don't like this way of thinking. No negativity about sponsors allowed because we might hurt their feelings? I have nothing against finding ways to increase exposure for sponsors, but for instance having an entire industry dependent on e.g. sponsors money from unhealthy snackfood companies isn't the greatest thing also. Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 02:39 FreudianTrip wrote:On June 26 2012 02:34 mechavoc wrote:On June 26 2012 01:36 FreudianTrip wrote:
Never implied any of the stuff outside of it either but I guess you could have taken a couple of my arguments that way so I'll extrapolate. I never meant to imply that you cannot or should not discuss these things. I simply asked myself rhetorically (at least I thought) WHY you would want to. I've done PR (well less PR and more Sales), I spent a year trying to find new ways we could spin our shit so that people would switch to nPower instead of our competitors. It's boring, it's hard work and 99.99999999999999% of the time your ideas suck ass and work in the real world about as well as a QWOP runner.
Let me put this a little different way, Companies have many many options on where to spend their marketing dollars. Companies are risk adverse and do not like wasting money, so they tend to stick with established proven areas. Given that esports has a way to go before it becomes an established advertising outlet there is a challenge in convincing companies to spend money at events, and there is a challenge in figuring out how to get the most out of the available screen time and screen real estate that is available. If I work in the marketing dept. of a potential sponsor I probably want to spend a little time visiting a place like TL.net the central mecca of SC2. Maybe I look at a thread about advertising(since this is my Industry) and I see one of two things. 1. A thread with a bunch of ideas on marketing, some good, some bad but maybe there are a couple gems in there that this marketing person can run with one or two. Either way it is nice that the community is spending some time thinking about how to make the marketing person's life easier even if it bears no fruit. Maybe it is the little thing that tips the balance and makes the decision to take a chance on SC2. It doesn't hurt. 2. A thread about how marketers are the devil, how we will never spend any money on any of these products we don't buy anything we don't want to pay for anything we don't want to look at adds, and we shouldn't try to help those marketing ghouls. This doesn't help.
So if you enjoy the countless hours of free entertainment we have all received through streams, tournaments and TL forum chat suck it up and don't complain about adds, or at least go complain about adds in a different forum thread so those who wish to throw some ideas out there can do so in peace. God fucking damnit. This is like the 8th time someone has quoted one of my posts and said this. Do you people just not read or are you trying to twist my point of view to make it sound like I'm some crazy belligerent outlier that smells weird and walks around wearing a tin-foil hat? Because it's definitely one of the two. All your posts in this thread are weird, so maybe that's why.
Yeah? Well you smell weird. Thanks for the critique though bro. Very informative.
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On June 26 2012 02:41 Grumbels wrote:
I don't like this way of thinking. No negativity about sponsors allowed because we might hurt their feelings?
I have nothing against finding ways to increase exposure for sponsors, but for instance having an entire industry dependent on e.g. sponsors money from unhealthy snackfood companies isn't the greatest thing also.
I think people should be able to say whatever they want about sponsors in the appropriate place. This thread was about generating ideas, not about debating the merits of advertising.
And I hate to break it to you but every major sport in the US is based on sponsor's money. Tickets sales aren't paying the salaries of multi-millionaire athletes, ad dollars are (by way of TV revenue).
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On June 26 2012 02:17 IdrA wrote:
its what provides most of the money that supports our community. you should embrace the shit out of it.
Cant remember they send me a paycheck.
Perhaps you wanted to say :
its what provides most of the money that supports ME. you should embrace the shit out of it.
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Put them all over the overlay, have slideshows in the downtimes between games, have the casters mention the sponsors every so often. It's not that hard.. =/
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On June 26 2012 02:48 skeldark wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 02:17 IdrA wrote:
its what provides most of the money that supports our community. you should embrace the shit out of it. You have a spelling mistake in there. You wanted to say "ME" not "our community".
It supports the community, too. Did you watch the last DreamHack? Did you watch the last MLG? Do you watch progamers stream their games? Do you watch any of the Starcraft 2 shows? Are you not entertained?
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On June 26 2012 02:45 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 02:17 IdrA wrote:
its what provides most of the money that supports our community. you should embrace the shit out of it. Support them? Sure. Embrace them? Maybe. Bend over and let them make my their bitch by forcing me to put their sponsor tag in my Sc2 name? No. Emphatically No. As a fan of starcraft for well over a decade, the last thing I want to hear/see when I open a tournament is "Spawning in the bottom left we have Coca-Cola's champion, Coke'Idra, and over here in the top right we have Pepsi's champion Pepsi'Huk."Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 02:36 Oproer wrote:
What came first, the community or the sponsors?
Alright, let's say we embrace the sponsors and be grateful for their sponsorship and for keeping this community alive with their tournaments and pro-players like our beloved IdrA. Does the sponsor have any obligation towards us, or do we just have an obligation towards them?
Can we ask those sponsors to not go overboard and stay away from advertising inside the game like in-game billboards, or rotating Pepsi logo's on a battlefield? Can we ask the sponsors to limit themselves to a specified percentage of stream-screen estate in a specified banner, so we can keep enjoying the game, or is that too much to ask for?
Advertisers will keep pushing the limits of good taste and I think this has been proven over time, right? They will want to keep expanding their influence, but should there not be a force that pushes them back?
This is why there needs to be a line somewhere. Advertisers don't give money because they love you and want you to watch Sc2. They give it because they want you to watch their advertisements and buy their stuff. I do think they need more exposure than they are currently getting though.
I think Most people would jump for joy if Coke or Pepsi either had Sc2 teams or personally sponsored players. That would be huge.
Having a tag Coke'Idra is no different from having a tag EGIdra.
We aren't talking about changing the name of stim pack to monster or zergling speed to redbull but putting primary sponsors in a tag name is a great way to add advertising in a very non intrusive way.
Correct me if im wrong but didn;t they used to announce TL players as TLAF-LiquidX
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On June 26 2012 02:53 Tantaburs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2012 02:45 Fyrewolf wrote:On June 26 2012 02:17 IdrA wrote:
its what provides most of the money that supports our community. you should embrace the shit out of it. Support them? Sure. Embrace them? Maybe. Bend over and let them make my their bitch by forcing me to put their sponsor tag in my Sc2 name? No. Emphatically No. As a fan of starcraft for well over a decade, the last thing I want to hear/see when I open a tournament is "Spawning in the bottom left we have Coca-Cola's champion, Coke'Idra, and over here in the top right we have Pepsi's champion Pepsi'Huk."On June 26 2012 02:36 Oproer wrote:
What came first, the community or the sponsors?
Alright, let's say we embrace the sponsors and be grateful for their sponsorship and for keeping this community alive with their tournaments and pro-players like our beloved IdrA. Does the sponsor have any obligation towards us, or do we just have an obligation towards them?
Can we ask those sponsors to not go overboard and stay away from advertising inside the game like in-game billboards, or rotating Pepsi logo's on a battlefield? Can we ask the sponsors to limit themselves to a specified percentage of stream-screen estate in a specified banner, so we can keep enjoying the game, or is that too much to ask for?
Advertisers will keep pushing the limits of good taste and I think this has been proven over time, right? They will want to keep expanding their influence, but should there not be a force that pushes them back?
This is why there needs to be a line somewhere. Advertisers don't give money because they love you and want you to watch Sc2. They give it because they want you to watch their advertisements and buy their stuff. I do think they need more exposure than they are currently getting though. I think Most people would jump for joy if Coke or Pepsi either had Sc2 teams or personally sponsored players. That would be huge. Having a tag Coke'Idra is no different from having a tag EGIdra. We aren't talking about changing the name of stim pack to monster or zergling speed to redbull but putting primary sponsors in a tag name is a great way to add advertising in a very non intrusive way. Correct me if im wrong but didn;t they used to announce TL players as TLAF-LiquidX
I would love it if Coke or Pepsi sponsored teams or players. I would hate it if they forced those players to have their tag in their name. Like I said, I think sponsors need more exposure, but a line goes somewhere. I don't think player names should be used for advertising space. Advertisers will buy the tatoo space on your forehead if they can.
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