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On August 22 2012 05:57 BeanerBurrito wrote:
I love hearing tobi talk about dota and league of legends, first person i've heard on the esports community that shares my longterm view of aos'
I heard jp mention "first it was league of legends, then hon, now dota 2... so dota 2 is the new guy"
and tobi mentioned that dota 1 was around years before league of legends, which made me so happy because most people tend not to realize that.
Jp was referring to the next gen 'mobas' trust me Jp knows all about dota1.
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Tobi is right. LoL might be fun to fool around casually, but if you're looking for a real competitive game, DoTA is what you need. There are so many subtleties and details into DoTA that takes time to learn and notice. You don't even lose gold when you die in LoL, you cannot deny, mana costs are not an issue and you can spam your skills, you have to buy heroes and buffs to gain access to them etc....The list just goes on.
In my opinion LoL as a game does not really deserve the competitive scene focus it's getting right now. Like Tobi said it's not designed for it and the only reason it's getting the attention is because of the money pumped by Riot.
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On August 22 2012 06:27 Bleak wrote:
Tobi is right. LoL might be fun to fool around casually, but if you're looking for a real competitive game, DoTA is what you need. There are so many subtleties and details into DoTA that takes time to learn and notice. You don't even lose gold when you die in LoL, you cannot deny, mana costs are not an issue and you can spam your skills, you have to buy heroes and buffs to gain access to them etc....The list just goes on.
In my opinion LoL as a game does not really deserve the competitive scene focus it's getting right now. Like Tobi said it's not designed for it and the only reason it's getting the attention is because of the money pumped by Riot.
How complicated is Basketball? Baseball? Tennis? Soccer? Hockey? Chess? These games in itself are not complicated, what makes it complicated is the fact that it is a human vs human interaction within game rules, that's where it becomes complicated. I think it's disingenuous to say that LoL is any easier than Dota, because it has simplified mechanics, or it's missing different game mechanics, but when the competition is human vs human, all bets are off on difficulty level.
I don't get how buying champions affects LoL as an esport? Pros have access to all the champions in tourney realm, and most of them own all the champions in regular server realm. The purchasing of runes, are accessible to everyone, and it's only through IP, no one can straight up 'buy' runes.
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Tic Tac Toe
As hard as Starcraft 2
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enjoying tobi's interview
glad he talked about LoL
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On August 22 2012 06:33 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 06:27 Bleak wrote:
Tobi is right. LoL might be fun to fool around casually, but if you're looking for a real competitive game, DoTA is what you need. There are so many subtleties and details into DoTA that takes time to learn and notice. You don't even lose gold when you die in LoL, you cannot deny, mana costs are not an issue and you can spam your skills, you have to buy heroes and buffs to gain access to them etc....The list just goes on.
In my opinion LoL as a game does not really deserve the competitive scene focus it's getting right now. Like Tobi said it's not designed for it and the only reason it's getting the attention is because of the money pumped by Riot. How complicated is Basketball? Baseball? Tennis? Soccer? Hockey? Chess? These games in itself are not complicated, what makes it complicated is the fact that it is a human vs human interaction within game rules, that's where it becomes complicated. I think it's disingenuous to say that LoL is any easier than Dota, because it has simplified mechanics, or it's missing different game mechanics, but when the competition is human vs human, all bets are off on difficulty level. I don't get how buying champions affects LoL as an esport? Pros have access to all the champions in tourney realm, and most of them own all the champions in regular server realm. The purchasing of runes, are accessible to everyone, and it's only through IP, no one can straight up 'buy' runes.
It does have a competitive scene. I did not deny that or discredit that. However you can create a competitive scene out of anything. Besides, all the sports that you've listed are not really very similar to each other (maybe a better analogy would be between tennis and table tennis, but that's a whole another story and the games are very similar but with very different and for both very tough skill sets) so you cannot compare them. LoL is undeniably, obviously based on original DoTA gameplay, but simplified to such an extent that in my opinion and also for many others, just cannot compare to DoTA's level of complexity and the competition/fun that springs out of it.
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complexity is moot point. complexity only factors in if you're trying to say there's a "skill cap", of which as long as it's human vs human, there is no skill cap. If you want to talk about complexity, lets talk about poker. Omaha high-lo more complicated than texas hold'um, that doesn't invalidate texas hold'um, does it?
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On August 22 2012 06:33 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 06:27 Bleak wrote:
Tobi is right. LoL might be fun to fool around casually, but if you're looking for a real competitive game, DoTA is what you need. There are so many subtleties and details into DoTA that takes time to learn and notice. You don't even lose gold when you die in LoL, you cannot deny, mana costs are not an issue and you can spam your skills, you have to buy heroes and buffs to gain access to them etc....The list just goes on.
In my opinion LoL as a game does not really deserve the competitive scene focus it's getting right now. Like Tobi said it's not designed for it and the only reason it's getting the attention is because of the money pumped by Riot. How complicated is Basketball? Baseball? Tennis? Soccer? Hockey? Chess? These games in itself are not complicated, what makes it complicated is the fact that it is a human vs human interaction within game rules, that's where it becomes complicated. I think it's disingenuous to say that LoL is any easier than Dota, because it has simplified mechanics, or it's missing different game mechanics, but when the competition is human vs human, all bets are off on difficulty level. I don't get how buying champions affects LoL as an esport? Pros have access to all the champions in tourney realm, and most of them own all the champions in regular server realm. The purchasing of runes, are accessible to everyone, and it's only through IP, no one can straight up 'buy' runes.
For me personally if i wanted to try to play league of legends for the purpose of becoming competitive, i would not be able to play or learn or even be on the same playing field as every other player simply because i haven't paid for the champions or grinded out the levels and runes. That is not a way to create a competitive game. In dota whether it is your first time playing a hero or your 1000th time playing a hero the hero has the exact same skills and stats regardless.
I agree that competition creates difficulty by itself, but at the same time it is harder to play chess than checkers simply because of the mechanics of each game, personally in league of legends i feel much less able to take advantage of my opponent simply because of the game.
For example, the map of league of legends is much smaller than dota, and the towers in league of legends are much more powerful than in dota, because of those mechanics if i dominate someone in a lane in league of legends 1 on 1, i am not able to use the advantage to a better extent because they can run away much easier and the tower does so much damage i can't really dive and kill them. That is one reason why league of legends seems to even the playing field for better and worse players which effectively hurts the idea of competition, another example of that is no denying, no losing gold on death, etc. There are just a lot of mechanics about league of legends that makes me feel like it doesn't allow me to be as competitive as i would like to be.
Professional league of legends players can put the exact same amount of time and effort in their game, but i don't feel like they are rewarded with the ability to show their higher skill level because of the way league of legends is designed.
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On August 22 2012 06:43 BeanerBurrito wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 06:33 wei2coolman wrote:On August 22 2012 06:27 Bleak wrote:
Tobi is right. LoL might be fun to fool around casually, but if you're looking for a real competitive game, DoTA is what you need. There are so many subtleties and details into DoTA that takes time to learn and notice. You don't even lose gold when you die in LoL, you cannot deny, mana costs are not an issue and you can spam your skills, you have to buy heroes and buffs to gain access to them etc....The list just goes on.
In my opinion LoL as a game does not really deserve the competitive scene focus it's getting right now. Like Tobi said it's not designed for it and the only reason it's getting the attention is because of the money pumped by Riot. How complicated is Basketball? Baseball? Tennis? Soccer? Hockey? Chess? These games in itself are not complicated, what makes it complicated is the fact that it is a human vs human interaction within game rules, that's where it becomes complicated. I think it's disingenuous to say that LoL is any easier than Dota, because it has simplified mechanics, or it's missing different game mechanics, but when the competition is human vs human, all bets are off on difficulty level. I don't get how buying champions affects LoL as an esport? Pros have access to all the champions in tourney realm, and most of them own all the champions in regular server realm. The purchasing of runes, are accessible to everyone, and it's only through IP, no one can straight up 'buy' runes. For me personally if i wanted to try to play league of legends for the purpose of becoming competitive, i would not be able to play or learn or even be on the same playing field as every other player simply because i haven't paid for the champions or grinded out the levels and runes. That is not a way to create a competitive game. In dota whether it is your first time playing a hero or your 1000th time playing a hero the hero has the exact same skills and stats regardless. I agree that competition creates difficulty by itself, but at the same time it is harder to play chess than checkers simply because of the mechanics of each game, personally in league of legends i feel much less able to take advantage of my opponent simply because of the game. For example, the map of league of legends is much smaller than dota, and the towers in league of legends are much more powerful than in dota, because of those mechanics if i dominate someone in a lane in league of legends 1 on 1, i am not able to use the advantage to a better extent because they can run away much easier and the tower does so much damage i can't really dive and kill them. That is one reason why league of legends seems to even the playing field for better and worse players which effectively hurts the idea of competition, another example of that is no denying, no losing gold on death, etc. There are just a lot of mechanics about league of legends that makes me feel like it doesn't allow me to be as competitive as i would like to be. Professional league of legends players can put the exact same amount of time and effort in their game, but i don't feel like they are rewarded with the ability to show their higher skill level because of the way league of legends is designed.
Thanks, that was what I was trying to say. The tower example is a good one.
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United Kingdom31935 Posts
Enjoying all the real talks till now and liking the Tobiwan interview 
Keep it ip :D
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im waiting for the Artosis interview.
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Amazing real talk once again. I really like Tobi, amazing personality. Next week SirScoots, that will be one of my favorite, for sure!
Great job JP. Loving the show.
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As a huge fan of Dota 2, thanks for expanding beyond SC2, jp. Tobi is one of the greats currently and it's awesome to hear his thoughts outside of his typical caster-mode.
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Cant wait for the next few eps. This one was interesting but Toby is a bit fucking irritating.
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On August 22 2012 06:43 BeanerBurrito wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 06:33 wei2coolman wrote:On August 22 2012 06:27 Bleak wrote:
Tobi is right. LoL might be fun to fool around casually, but if you're looking for a real competitive game, DoTA is what you need. There are so many subtleties and details into DoTA that takes time to learn and notice. You don't even lose gold when you die in LoL, you cannot deny, mana costs are not an issue and you can spam your skills, you have to buy heroes and buffs to gain access to them etc....The list just goes on.
In my opinion LoL as a game does not really deserve the competitive scene focus it's getting right now. Like Tobi said it's not designed for it and the only reason it's getting the attention is because of the money pumped by Riot. How complicated is Basketball? Baseball? Tennis? Soccer? Hockey? Chess? These games in itself are not complicated, what makes it complicated is the fact that it is a human vs human interaction within game rules, that's where it becomes complicated. I think it's disingenuous to say that LoL is any easier than Dota, because it has simplified mechanics, or it's missing different game mechanics, but when the competition is human vs human, all bets are off on difficulty level. I don't get how buying champions affects LoL as an esport? Pros have access to all the champions in tourney realm, and most of them own all the champions in regular server realm. The purchasing of runes, are accessible to everyone, and it's only through IP, no one can straight up 'buy' runes. For me personally if i wanted to try to play league of legends for the purpose of becoming competitive, i would not be able to play or learn or even be on the same playing field as every other player simply because i haven't paid for the champions or grinded out the levels and runes. That is not a way to create a competitive game. In dota whether it is your first time playing a hero or your 1000th time playing a hero the hero has the exact same skills and stats regardless. I agree that competition creates difficulty by itself, but at the same time it is harder to play chess than checkers simply because of the mechanics of each game, personally in league of legends i feel much less able to take advantage of my opponent simply because of the game. For example, the map of league of legends is much smaller than dota, and the towers in league of legends are much more powerful than in dota, because of those mechanics if i dominate someone in a lane in league of legends 1 on 1, i am not able to use the advantage to a better extent because they can run away much easier and the tower does so much damage i can't really dive and kill them. That is one reason why league of legends seems to even the playing field for better and worse players which effectively hurts the idea of competition, another example of that is no denying, no losing gold on death, etc. There are just a lot of mechanics about league of legends that makes me feel like it doesn't allow me to be as competitive as i would like to be. Professional league of legends players can put the exact same amount of time and effort in their game, but i don't feel like they are rewarded with the ability to show their higher skill level because of the way league of legends is designed.
How is this any different than professionals getting customized equipment? from customized sneakers to, exactly weighted rackets?
Also, if you weren't so fast to judge lol, right now in the current state of pro-level matches, the meta is the fact that people can snow ball out of small advantages, rapidly, so your point about not being able to abuse advantages is moot.
Missing mechanics isn't a "bad" thing. Some times over complexity is a bad thing, because sometimes it just doesn't add to the game. But then again, some people still argue automine is too nubbish for sc2, if you're one to share the same opinion, then that's just a difference in opinion we'll never see eye to eye.
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On August 22 2012 13:49 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 06:43 BeanerBurrito wrote:On August 22 2012 06:33 wei2coolman wrote:On August 22 2012 06:27 Bleak wrote:
Tobi is right. LoL might be fun to fool around casually, but if you're looking for a real competitive game, DoTA is what you need. There are so many subtleties and details into DoTA that takes time to learn and notice. You don't even lose gold when you die in LoL, you cannot deny, mana costs are not an issue and you can spam your skills, you have to buy heroes and buffs to gain access to them etc....The list just goes on.
In my opinion LoL as a game does not really deserve the competitive scene focus it's getting right now. Like Tobi said it's not designed for it and the only reason it's getting the attention is because of the money pumped by Riot. How complicated is Basketball? Baseball? Tennis? Soccer? Hockey? Chess? These games in itself are not complicated, what makes it complicated is the fact that it is a human vs human interaction within game rules, that's where it becomes complicated. I think it's disingenuous to say that LoL is any easier than Dota, because it has simplified mechanics, or it's missing different game mechanics, but when the competition is human vs human, all bets are off on difficulty level. I don't get how buying champions affects LoL as an esport? Pros have access to all the champions in tourney realm, and most of them own all the champions in regular server realm. The purchasing of runes, are accessible to everyone, and it's only through IP, no one can straight up 'buy' runes. For me personally if i wanted to try to play league of legends for the purpose of becoming competitive, i would not be able to play or learn or even be on the same playing field as every other player simply because i haven't paid for the champions or grinded out the levels and runes. That is not a way to create a competitive game. In dota whether it is your first time playing a hero or your 1000th time playing a hero the hero has the exact same skills and stats regardless. I agree that competition creates difficulty by itself, but at the same time it is harder to play chess than checkers simply because of the mechanics of each game, personally in league of legends i feel much less able to take advantage of my opponent simply because of the game. For example, the map of league of legends is much smaller than dota, and the towers in league of legends are much more powerful than in dota, because of those mechanics if i dominate someone in a lane in league of legends 1 on 1, i am not able to use the advantage to a better extent because they can run away much easier and the tower does so much damage i can't really dive and kill them. That is one reason why league of legends seems to even the playing field for better and worse players which effectively hurts the idea of competition, another example of that is no denying, no losing gold on death, etc. There are just a lot of mechanics about league of legends that makes me feel like it doesn't allow me to be as competitive as i would like to be. Professional league of legends players can put the exact same amount of time and effort in their game, but i don't feel like they are rewarded with the ability to show their higher skill level because of the way league of legends is designed. How is this any different than professionals getting customized equipment? from customized sneakers to, exactly weighted rackets? Also, if you weren't so fast to judge lol, right now in the current state of pro-level matches, the meta is the fact that people can snow ball out of small advantages, rapidly, so your point about not being able to abuse advantages is moot. Missing mechanics isn't a "bad" thing. Some times over complexity is a bad thing, because sometimes it just doesn't add to the game. But then again, some people still argue automine is too nubbish for sc2, if you're one to share the same opinion, then that's just a difference in opinion we'll never see eye to eye.
The difference is rackets and sneakers are more like a mouse and keyboard, hero's are more like the court or ball. In my opinion at least. I have no problem with LoL, but I prefer dota2 /shrug.
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How do I go about viewing the latest interview?
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On August 22 2012 14:08 Kar98 wrote:
How do I go about viewing the latest interview?
its not up yet. JP said the upload process was taking forever and it has to process still after that. It is a 3 hour video so not too surprising.
hopefully up soon though, looking forward to watching it.
EDIT: oh and when its up it will be on JP's youtube.
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Really a great episode with Tobi on. Easily my second favorite episode with 2gd being first and tasteless being after this. Maybe it's because I'm a DotA fan at heart, but hearing Tobi talk about everything really made me proud. It's also gotten me even more hyped for the Valve documentary!
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EPT
