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On May 20 2012 03:56 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2012 03:52 Qaatar wrote:On May 20 2012 03:42 ohampatu wrote:On May 20 2012 03:36 Qaatar wrote:On May 20 2012 02:46 ohampatu wrote:On May 20 2012 02:20 Azurues wrote:
no words from Squirtle on his devolving process? Why do people always want losers interviews? You just want to read about how Squirtle is upset that he lost to cheese in the final game? Let the kid be filled with regret on his own. Give him a day or two to harass him about the finals, he just lost a series where he looked like he was about to convincingly reverse sweep. Im not talking about balance or anything, but the 'better' player at the moment didn't win. MVP is MVP though, doesn't matter if your might be mechanically better than him, in better shape, better prepared, etc. MVP will win if he wants to, as he has shown. Congratulations on that  I will say though, that I really hope MVP returns to his amazing self. He is still in a bit of slump skillwise imo. He is winning because he is abusing early game terran with mixtures of allin/cheese strategies and mind games. Which works, im not trashing him. Its just we all loved MVP for how he played while he was dominant. We will support him now, but if he doesn't switch his style back around he will lose fans. MVP's series this year have all been lackluster. The last 3 tvp's he has played has really showed it. Bitttttt---Byyyyy----Biiittttt edit: and he can't de-evolve...MVP just decided to spam B while he was evolving. So now we have to wait another level or two MVP's TvP has never been the most watchable or beautiful. If you've actually been watching him when he was dominant, pretty much after his series with Creator in the Super Tournament, his style of TvP changed into what it is today. It's hilarious that people harp on MVP's shortcomings in TvP, while failing to acknowledge that he continues to play long, strenuous macro games in TvZ, a matchup that is far more mechanically difficult. His wrists hurt like fuck against Leenock, but MVP still played some amazing games to beat him in the Ro16. Convenient that some ignore these facts (not you specifically, but I had to rant a little here), and call him an 'all-in cheesemaster.' YES, we know...he cheeses in TvP, and he has done so for a long ass time. You know what? That doesn't stop the rest of us from admiring the beauty and art that is his TvZ and TvT. TvP sucks as a matchup to watch for most people anyways, so honestly, it's a win win for me. I believe i may have criticisized him, but i dont think i was talking down on MVP. Calm down please. MVP has done whatnobody else has, and deserved his win for what he went through. But if he was any other race he wouldn't have won this finals, or even made it past ro8. There are arguments for and against his current playstyels in certain matchups, but this isn't the place to argue them. I can still be sad that in the last 15 matches he's pulled scv's to attack in 10 of those. And his TvP before his matches with creator and etc was very good imo. He was actually a terran who didn't rely on 1/1/1 during its 'flavor of the last 6 months' strat. He has only started using it since he has his injuries, and I salute him. But that makes me want the old MVP back more The old MVP was also all about winning. Due to his long BW background in Terran, he had a difficult time adjusting to the TvP matchup, and honestly, I still feel as if his strategic sense in the matchup is lacking. It's certainly not his mechanics or macro, because we've seen that in spades in his TvZ, even with his injured wrists. He did abuse the 111 (or rather, mindgaming with the 111) against HuK in August en route to a 3-0. He also was one of the first to abuse bunker pushes against P as well (first game of GSL August against MC). Why? Because he was about winning. He feels like macro games are key to winning TvZ's and TvT's, and feels more confident in those matchups. Conversely, he has felt, for a long time, that timings and all-ins are key to winning TvP, and feels perhaps less confident in that matchup. Nothing has changed; his mentality is the same: WIN. Its weird, i haven't read any articles recently about his TvP thoughts. His interview after parting stated he didn't feel scared macroing at all. But he didn't macro the series before, that series, or the series after. He knows his opponents read his interviews, and he is a mind game master. Im sure he planned these last 3 sets perfectly. Yea he used 1/1/1 against huk, but before in an interview he stated he didn't like using it and felt it was cheap. I have also said he is about winning, and congratulated him on his win. I was simply expressing my sadness about him being bitbybit in his last 3 series. SORRY I BLASHPHEMED...i forgot we can only complain about cheese when its not a fan favorite
No, it's just the inconsistency. I'm just a little puzzled, like edited in my last post, that I see sentiments like yours much more now than back in August, when in reality, nothing has changed. Except, of course, that MVP is even more injured and was slumping. Perhaps some people thought, that since he was slumping, he started using all-ins as a crutch?
I've got a phrase for that: post hoc, ergo, proctor hoc. Just because he's slumping doesn't necessarily mean that he's resorting to all-ins for that reason. Like I've argued, there's a rather large backlog of empirical data of MVP's TvP in the past 9 months. Go watch a few of them, if you're interested.
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Seriously happy that MVP won. The one thing that surprised me was the fact that in every game but game 7 he had macro oriented builds. I think this was smart, but still surprising considering his wrist issues as the last 2 bo5's with toss he cheesed like every single game lol.
MVP's macro was top notch, decision making, etc for the most part. Game 5 I think he should have won but made a mistake and got vortexed which is like in zvp if you get vortexed you lose. Enjoyable series, I actually found game 1 and 3 absolutely hilarious though, game 2 was fairly good, game 5 was good as well. Game 6 was intense, in general enjoyed the series even though I am zerg and glad to see MVP win another championship :D
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On May 20 2012 04:04 blade55555 wrote:
Seriously happy that MVP won. The one thing that surprised me was the fact that in every game but game 7 he had macro oriented builds. I think this was smart, but still surprising considering his wrist issues as the last 2 bo5's with toss he cheesed like every single game lol.
Again, MVP was just as 'cheesy' against MC and Huk back in August. Hell, he played macro games in two out of the four games against Naniwa (or tried to...too bad Naniwa died too quickly in the first, and MVP died too quickly in the second). Against Parting, MVP all-in'd twice in four games.
I can argue that, statistically, MVP played even more of an all-in style back in August than in this GSL. Of course that's not an accurate representation, since there were less games, but you get my point.
Edit: All-in TvP style, in case some misconstrue my points.
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I reached rank 1 on the ladder only one month after switching to Starcraft 2
Haha
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What is wrong will pulling scvs? Aren't they units as well? The reason zergs and Protoss don't pull their workers is because they don't have mules and also they have other melee units and workers would actually get in the way for most situations. Pulling scvs are a calculated risk where you HAVE to kill workers or you are behind. Basically it is sacrificing you Eco for a stronger army and it is not different from a 4 gate where you cut probes or quick roaches. With 4 gate, you are cutting probes and with quick roaches, you are using the larvae for drones for roaches. All three builds are agreesive builds that get way behind if they do not do damage.
And if the complaint is about mules, different races have different mechanics. We could argue MVP would have won game 5 if not for vortex.
And it is pretty easy to defend as shown by Squirtle. Squirtle just overextended with his zealot and stalkers and gave MVP the chance to come back.
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On May 20 2012 04:27 vthree wrote:
What is wrong will pulling scvs? Aren't they units as well? The reason zergs and Protoss don't pull their workers is because they don't have mules and also they have other melee units and workers would actually get in the way for most situations. Pulling scvs are a calculated risk where you HAVE to kill workers or you are behind. Basically it is sacrificing you Eco for a stronger army and it is not different from a 4 gate where you cut probes or quick roaches. With 4 gate, you are cutting probes and with quick roaches, you are using the larvae for drones for roaches. All three builds are agreesive builds that get way behind if they do not do damage.
And if the complaint is about mules, different races have different mechanics. We could argue MVP would have won game 5 if not for vortex.
And it is pretty easy to defend as shown by Squirtle. Squirtle just overextended with his zealot and stalkers and gave MVP the chance to come back.
Nothing, but we were arguing about the big picture of MVP's playing habits, and the inconsistency of criticism which I feel is laughably disingenuous. I feel the same way you do, but I think we're approaching this from two different angles.
Edit: please read my first post in this thread if you haven't.
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On May 20 2012 03:42 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2012 03:36 Qaatar wrote:On May 20 2012 02:46 ohampatu wrote:On May 20 2012 02:20 Azurues wrote:
no words from Squirtle on his devolving process? Why do people always want losers interviews? You just want to read about how Squirtle is upset that he lost to cheese in the final game? Let the kid be filled with regret on his own. Give him a day or two to harass him about the finals, he just lost a series where he looked like he was about to convincingly reverse sweep. Im not talking about balance or anything, but the 'better' player at the moment didn't win. MVP is MVP though, doesn't matter if your might be mechanically better than him, in better shape, better prepared, etc. MVP will win if he wants to, as he has shown. Congratulations on that I will say though, that I really hope MVP returns to his amazing self. He is still in a bit of slump skillwise imo. He is winning because he is abusing early game terran with mixtures of allin/cheese strategies and mind games. Which works, im not trashing him. Its just we all loved MVP for how he played while he was dominant. We will support him now, but if he doesn't switch his style back around he will lose fans. MVP's series this year have all been lackluster. The last 3 tvp's he has played has really showed it. Bitttttt---Byyyyy----Biiittttt edit: and he can't de-evolve...MVP just decided to spam B while he was evolving. So now we have to wait another level or two MVP's TvP has never been the most watchable or beautiful. If you've actually been watching him when he was dominant, pretty much after his series with Creator in the Super Tournament, his style of TvP changed into what it is today. It's hilarious that people harp on MVP's shortcomings in TvP, while failing to acknowledge that he continues to play long, strenuous macro games in TvZ, a matchup that is far more mechanically difficult. His wrists hurt like fuck against Leenock, but MVP still played some amazing games to beat him in the Ro16. Convenient that some ignore these facts (not you specifically, but I had to rant a little here), and call him an 'all-in cheesemaster.' YES, we know...he cheeses in TvP, and he has done so for a long ass time. You know what? That doesn't stop the rest of us from admiring the beauty and art that is his TvZ and TvT. TvP sucks as a matchup to watch for most people anyways, so honestly, it's a win win for me. I believe i may have criticisized him, but i dont think i was talking down on MVP. Calm down please. MVP has done whatnobody else has, and deserved his win for what he went through. But if he was any other race he wouldn't have won this finals, or even made it past ro8. There are arguments for and against his current playstyels in certain matchups, but this isn't the place to argue them. I can still be sad that in the last 15 matches he's pulled scv's to attack in 10 of those. And his TvP before his matches with creator and etc was very good imo. He was actually a terran who didn't rely on 1/1/1 during its 'flavor of the last 6 months' strat. He has only started using it since he has his injuries, and I salute him. But that makes me want the old MVP back more
You say MVP won because of his race, some others would say he won despite it. It's very typical that in any balance discussion most of the players with the TL terran icons will say protoss is OP, and most of the players with the TL protoss icons will say terrans OP. So instead of trying to start a balance discussion, just type something unrelated to balance, we'll look at your icon, and then we'll know your general sentiment with regard to balance. The discussion is clearly an emotional shit-fest that has gotten no one very far, so there is no need for it outside of a designated thread.
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On May 20 2012 03:42 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2012 03:36 Qaatar wrote:On May 20 2012 02:46 ohampatu wrote:On May 20 2012 02:20 Azurues wrote:
no words from Squirtle on his devolving process? Why do people always want losers interviews? You just want to read about how Squirtle is upset that he lost to cheese in the final game? Let the kid be filled with regret on his own. Give him a day or two to harass him about the finals, he just lost a series where he looked like he was about to convincingly reverse sweep. Im not talking about balance or anything, but the 'better' player at the moment didn't win. MVP is MVP though, doesn't matter if your might be mechanically better than him, in better shape, better prepared, etc. MVP will win if he wants to, as he has shown. Congratulations on that I will say though, that I really hope MVP returns to his amazing self. He is still in a bit of slump skillwise imo. He is winning because he is abusing early game terran with mixtures of allin/cheese strategies and mind games. Which works, im not trashing him. Its just we all loved MVP for how he played while he was dominant. We will support him now, but if he doesn't switch his style back around he will lose fans. MVP's series this year have all been lackluster. The last 3 tvp's he has played has really showed it. Bitttttt---Byyyyy----Biiittttt edit: and he can't de-evolve...MVP just decided to spam B while he was evolving. So now we have to wait another level or two MVP's TvP has never been the most watchable or beautiful. If you've actually been watching him when he was dominant, pretty much after his series with Creator in the Super Tournament, his style of TvP changed into what it is today. It's hilarious that people harp on MVP's shortcomings in TvP, while failing to acknowledge that he continues to play long, strenuous macro games in TvZ, a matchup that is far more mechanically difficult. His wrists hurt like fuck against Leenock, but MVP still played some amazing games to beat him in the Ro16. Convenient that some ignore these facts (not you specifically, but I had to rant a little here), and call him an 'all-in cheesemaster.' YES, we know...he cheeses in TvP, and he has done so for a long ass time. You know what? That doesn't stop the rest of us from admiring the beauty and art that is his TvZ and TvT. TvP sucks as a matchup to watch for most people anyways, so honestly, it's a win win for me. I believe i may have criticisized him, but i dont think i was talking down on MVP. Calm down please. MVP has done whatnobody else has, and deserved his win for what he went through. But if he was any other race he wouldn't have won this finals, or even made it past ro8. There are arguments for and against his current playstyels in certain matchups, but this isn't the place to argue them. I can still be sad that in the last 15 matches he's pulled scv's to attack in 10 of those. And his TvP before his matches with creator and etc was very good imo. He was actually a terran who didn't rely on 1/1/1 during its 'flavor of the last 6 months' strat. He has only started using it since he has his injuries, and I salute him. But that makes me want the old MVP back more
Considering MVP plays random at GM level, I'd say you're wrong. He could succeed as any race that he played, same thing with any dominating player. Flash was also known as being able to play any of the races very strong, not as strong as his terran but very strong.
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It's odd how people say the less skilled player won the GSL in my opinion if you use cheese it won't make you less skilled player. For example Symbol he is great player everyone should agree that, right? Still he cheesed 3 games out of 3 against Marineking doesn't that make him bad? all ins and cheeses are part of game if nobody would not do these it would be boring. If you lose to cheese it is because lack of scouting or lack of micro/macro and you can't blame anyone else than youself because of that. Squirtle scouted that it will most likely be 2 rax cheese and he prepared pretty well but after he destroyed first wave what did he think? Mvp will go back to mine and make it normal game? No that will no happen even though he had mules. Mvp destroyed Squirtles army close to proxy raxes and i don't think that should have happen. Squirtle saw him making units still and saw glimpse of the units whom surrounded squirtle. At that point squirtle should have just get asap to the main and not try to do some incredible micro with 3 stalkers against mvp's army.
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I can imagine Naniwa, Squirtle and PartinG getting absolutely wasted in the ST house after the finals lol.
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On May 19 2012 21:56 dragonborn wrote:
What are your plans for foreign tournaments?
I am planning to attend any tournament that invites me. I will go overseas to promote my sponsors and take those championships.
MVP is such a good person >_<
congrats again.
Rofl, he just knows he's going to win.
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I have also said he is about winning, and congratulated him on his win. I was simply expressing my sadness about him being bitbybit in his last 3 series. SORRY I BLASHPHEMED...i forgot we can only complain about cheese when its not a fan favorite
you can only complain about cheese if
1. There was a lot of cheese. MVP won 3 macro games on a trot. He "cheesed" one game, and that was on Atlantis which is a ridiculous map.
2. If you aren't blaspheming against God.
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damn mvp did it. won his 4th gsl dispite his conditions
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Thanks for the great translation Mvp fighting ! ~
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Shouldn't only terran and zerg have the right to complain about double proxy rax? Protoss has warpgate, which is just like proxy rax except it can even hide safety at home and not be destroyed if attack fails lol
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Sen always get 3rd place
MKP always get 2nd place
MVP always get 1st place, why u so good? =D
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Baller interview. thanks for translating!
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On May 19 2012 23:05 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 23:00 DaveVAH wrote:On May 19 2012 22:45 bokchoi wrote:On May 19 2012 22:23 Zealously wrote:On May 19 2012 22:13 jkang wrote:
Seems Mvp thinks Battlecruisers are actually pretty good. In fairness, nothing short of a money vortex like the one Squirtle landed could have stopped that BC army. In bigger numbers, they are near unstoppable, just like Carriers. Exactly. Just really hard to get to them safely without dying. VoidRays> BC's With squirtles bank if he had scouted the BC's sooner he would have upgraded air and massed Vr's and crushed the BC's without the need for vortext. Voidrays do + damage to massive AND + damage to armored. They hard counter bcs on equal upgrades. If you just look at the stats, then yes. But a single Yamato takes out a full health void ray. Which means a bunch of void rays aren't even going to do damage. MVP would not have gone BCs if he thought being scouted would mean a loss.
Feedback cancel yamato cast.
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People whining about the cheese(and/or MULEs) are funny, they seem to forget how retarded that map is.
Also Squirtle had 20 supply on the Island when he crushed MVPs "ultimate comp". Im not convinced by the BCs at all.
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I don't like the word cheese: every strategy is a strategy and one is not superior to the other except in the sense that it wins more or less than other strategies..
On May 20 2012 08:08 gillon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2012 23:05 Fig wrote:On May 19 2012 23:00 DaveVAH wrote:On May 19 2012 22:45 bokchoi wrote:On May 19 2012 22:23 Zealously wrote:On May 19 2012 22:13 jkang wrote:
Seems Mvp thinks Battlecruisers are actually pretty good. In fairness, nothing short of a money vortex like the one Squirtle landed could have stopped that BC army. In bigger numbers, they are near unstoppable, just like Carriers. Exactly. Just really hard to get to them safely without dying. VoidRays> BC's With squirtles bank if he had scouted the BC's sooner he would have upgraded air and massed Vr's and crushed the BC's without the need for vortext. Voidrays do + damage to massive AND + damage to armored. They hard counter bcs on equal upgrades. If you just look at the stats, then yes. But a single Yamato takes out a full health void ray. Which means a bunch of void rays aren't even going to do damage. MVP would not have gone BCs if he thought being scouted would mean a loss. Feedback cancel yamato cast. emp cancel feed back cast.
look, i can name counters..:D:D:D:D
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EPT
