Most of you seem to "have a problem" with your race. Only random players and top pros should have anything to say to the matter. Randoms because they have a more objective feel of the races. Top pros because they make the less mistakes that affect the outcome of the match, their matches are a more accurate representation of game balance.
Some unknown player struggling at some matchup doesn't tell anything about anything, it's just venting. A subjective opinion of that person, his "feeling" or his personal shortcoming as a player.
Even one pro struggling and whining doesn't have to mean anything. Just watched Grubby stream and losing numerous times in a row against late game Z and even whining a bit, but ultimately trying to figure it out. Even that doesn't mean jack shit because like he said: korean protosses don't seem to have the problem he has.
On April 28 2012 17:41 larse wrote: When people just ignore the fact that in 2012 All GSL Tournament the Terran winrate to Protoss is 56.3%, 81W / 63L. There is nothing to talk about with those whiners complaining about how OP Protoss is. It is completely reverse of the reality. Ignorant.
So what you are saying is that the community brought more statisical data to the table than blizzard. I find it funny that you think it's a bad thing that players are using facts and blizzard are bring unquantifiable statements.... apart from the matchmaking system thats based around forcing players to have a 50% win ratio is delivery that. And yeah.... where did all the terrans go?
Sigh i find it sad when people try to compare Blizzards data to that of a 3rd party site. Thing is mate why would Blizzard bother lying? They are the Judge, jury and executor in terms of SC2 balance. They could be showing a 80-20 TvP and claiming they still wanna wait out on the protoss to explore tech options, and you would be able to do NOTHING.
Btw since noone else does any research around here, look at this.
It explains very well how they get their adjusted winrates. It really doesn't matter if you think it is a reliable method, all you need to know is that those are the stats they use to determine ladder balance.
That video just proves to me that early game terran is too good and late game protoss is too strong.
But lets remember that its back then when maps were smaller and close spawns exist. Today, maps are larger and more macro based. Macro game/maps = easier to reach late game. Late game = protoss is good. Its transitioning to this point where protoss is too good that terrans often QQ about it (Well duh cuz its easier to hit late game now, the strong point of protoss).
So ultimately, its a game design problem NOT balance. Broken matchup
It was ment to show how they get their adjusted win percentages, I don't care what they thought about balance back then either. People have been asking all over how they get their adjusted win percentages and making doupts about them. But we have known how they do for the last 2 years.
On April 28 2012 19:07 aZealot wrote: To my understanding, David Kim has been a GM ranked random player for at least a couple of seasons on NA.
I'm not sure about the current season.
Edit/ And wow, the QQ just keeps going on and on.
I think he dropped out during season 3 and hasn't laddered much since. So when people complain that he doesn't know much about the actual state of the game, they have a fair point. Unless he has another account that I don't know about.
As far as I know he uses an account called 'dayvie', sc2ranks shows 2 dayvies, one random masters, one random diamond, both fairly inactive (<5 games played this season).
On April 28 2012 17:41 larse wrote: When people just ignore the fact that in 2012 All GSL Tournament the Terran winrate to Protoss is 56.3%, 81W / 63L. There is nothing to talk about with those whiners complaining about how OP Protoss is. It is completely reverse of the reality. Ignorant.
On April 28 2012 19:07 aZealot wrote: To my understanding, David Kim has been a GM ranked random player for at least a couple of seasons on NA.
I'm not sure about the current season.
Edit/ And wow, the QQ just keeps going on and on.
I think he dropped out during season 3 and hasn't laddered much since. So when people complain that he doesn't know much about the actual state of the game, they have a fair point. Unless he has another account that I don't know about.
As far as I know he uses an account called 'dayvie', sc2ranks shows 2 dayvies, one random masters, one random diamond, both fairly inactive (<5 games played this season).
Yeah, I just had a look myself. I thought that might be the case - working on HOTS etc would mean less time for laddering. Of course, that does not take into account watching streams/tournaments and, of course, customs (assuming he does all of these). Still, I wanted to dispel the idea that DK does not know anything about the game. This is clearly incorrect.
Incidentally, I believe Dustin Browder was (is?) a random Diamond player.
On April 28 2012 17:41 larse wrote: When people just ignore the fact that in 2012 All GSL Tournament the Terran winrate to Protoss is 56.3%, 81W / 63L. There is nothing to talk about with those whiners complaining about how OP Protoss is. It is completely reverse of the reality. Ignorant.
On April 28 2012 17:41 larse wrote: When people just ignore the fact that in 2012 All GSL Tournament the Terran winrate to Protoss is 56.3%, 81W / 63L. There is nothing to talk about with those whiners complaining about how OP Protoss is. It is completely reverse of the reality. Ignorant.
yes terran win 56,3% againt P , but every game that terran win is "lategame" situation or not ?
Not important.
Whats important: terrans have a higher chance of winning, and yet the forum whiners keep on QQing.
Wow, talk about not getting the point.
There is no point. The changes proposed by the whiners cant be done with a patch. You'll have to wait for HotS.
What would be needed is a significant nerf to stim and medivacs, and a buff to thors/ravens/viking land mode. That would of course fuck up TvZ greatly.
And the game is in a good place balance wise now. So of course Blizzard are not going to make a patch like that, and potentially break the game across all MUs.
On April 28 2012 08:30 ticklishmusic wrote: I think the problem with TvP lategame is not that Terrans can't beat Protoss, its just that the game is designed in a way that Terran think they can't win.
So, we know the usual uber macro lategame Terran 3/3 bio force loses to the Protoss "deathball" pretty much no matter what. EMP's, snipes, etc. are, admittedly, tricky to hit, and make a lot of big engagements essentially coinflip wins. Also, Terran's biggest is that they pretty much lose when their centralized production facilities get attacked.
In a very good article which I forget the name of, the OP (if someone can think of it and PM me the name) discusses the "idea" behind SC2. Basically, the flashy graphics and everything want players to go in with big army and bash each other to death, then rinse and repeat. Sure its cool-- you see the BL/ imbafestor combo slowly pushing across the map with constant streams of reinforcements while the other side desperately tries to stop the tide with waves of reinforcements, or when War of the Worlds happens in an epic PvP. Yay, starcraft machinma.
Thing is, it simply doesn't work. Toss's supply efficiency becomes, essentially, king lategame when resources become less of a restriction on army value when combined with lots of warpgates and double/triple robo or stargate with chrono. People need to simply stop trying to tackle Toss head on. That is simply the wrong way to beat Toss, and it makes me facepalm so hard when people say "lategame Toss army imba". It's true, but that deathball army is only one aspect of the game, and there are other points where Toss is weaker.
Drops do not magically stop working lategame. If a Toss is maxxed, he can't warp in more stuff. Toss units move at different speeds and in different ways. BC's are really good against Toss (meaning, Toss has no efficient counter). With mules, Terrans can potentially have a larger army. Those are just a couple things off the top of my head.
For the note, I'm Masters Protoss, I do play Terran about 20% of the time, and my PvT winrate is around 40%.
tl;dr : as an oversimplification, yes, protoss can "a-move" to victory (ignoring the need to split templars, throw down storms, ff, guardian shields, keep colossi in the back, warp in units and keep zealots in the front etc), but its only effective if you're dumb enough to let protoss a-move into your army.
Funny thing.. that you tell in the first paragraph, why the 'solution' from later in your post doesn't work. Yes, you can load up 4 medivacs and attack. That means that protoss amoves into you base, completely flattening the remainder of your army. Now toss is sitting at your production facilities killing your base, while your doom drop has to fight against waves of warpins that will wittle it down. Yes, there is supply available, because you will kill probes enabling warpins. Terran will kill all the tech of protoss leaving only warpgates, but protoss will kill everything of terran.
For your tl;dr: I love how you put 'keep colossus in the back" and "keep zealots in the front" in there.. because that's what happens when you amove. Colossus will stay back, zealots will charge to the front. Late-game when you have double splash you don't need forcefields - you just need storms and maybe guardian shield (which is like hitting stim a non-issue). So yes..a-move and casually strolling forward with your pre-split templar to place storms where is seems fitting will produce decent results. FAR better results than a terran army hitting stim and a-moving into a protoss army with a few emps thrown into unit clumps when the fight is half-way done.
Nonsense. No professional protoss player is amoving. There is lots of micro that has to be done, to make a protoss army an efficient one. Just because you are ignorant about it, doesnt meant its not there and its not being done.
Please highlight in my text, where I implied that any professional protoss is a-moving.
Re-read please, then I'd appreciate an answer to my post. Not to what you think I might have posted.
This kind of thread always bring out the worst in people. It also serves as an excuse for people to not improve. "If those graphics say protoss is losing, i guess i cant do anything about it".
I really dislike the fact they used all leagues to come up withe percentages. What about bronze league portrait farmers? God, watch MaximusBlack's stream, all he does against Terran and Protoss is 4gate - he is in master league atm.
Thats why i loved when playhem released their winratio percentages a while back.
/rantoff
To make mech viable, kinda, against Protoss, make it impossible for HT to feedback thors and bc's, Or, they can feedback, but it doesnt damage.
Hmm, am I missing something? Blizzard shows us the "Adjusted ratings" which incidentally also "factors out player skill". Then they use this to talk about imbalance? They also tell us the adjustments include considering racial strengths in different leagues, and then somehow tie this in together with "calculating player skill"?
I don't even get what the ratings really stand for at all.
On April 28 2012 08:30 ticklishmusic wrote: I think the problem with TvP lategame is not that Terrans can't beat Protoss, its just that the game is designed in a way that Terran think they can't win.
So, we know the usual uber macro lategame Terran 3/3 bio force loses to the Protoss "deathball" pretty much no matter what. EMP's, snipes, etc. are, admittedly, tricky to hit, and make a lot of big engagements essentially coinflip wins. Also, Terran's biggest is that they pretty much lose when their centralized production facilities get attacked.
In a very good article which I forget the name of, the OP (if someone can think of it and PM me the name) discusses the "idea" behind SC2. Basically, the flashy graphics and everything want players to go in with big army and bash each other to death, then rinse and repeat. Sure its cool-- you see the BL/ imbafestor combo slowly pushing across the map with constant streams of reinforcements while the other side desperately tries to stop the tide with waves of reinforcements, or when War of the Worlds happens in an epic PvP. Yay, starcraft machinma.
Thing is, it simply doesn't work. Toss's supply efficiency becomes, essentially, king lategame when resources become less of a restriction on army value when combined with lots of warpgates and double/triple robo or stargate with chrono. People need to simply stop trying to tackle Toss head on. That is simply the wrong way to beat Toss, and it makes me facepalm so hard when people say "lategame Toss army imba". It's true, but that deathball army is only one aspect of the game, and there are other points where Toss is weaker.
Drops do not magically stop working lategame. If a Toss is maxxed, he can't warp in more stuff. Toss units move at different speeds and in different ways. BC's are really good against Toss (meaning, Toss has no efficient counter). With mules, Terrans can potentially have a larger army. Those are just a couple things off the top of my head.
For the note, I'm Masters Protoss, I do play Terran about 20% of the time, and my PvT winrate is around 40%.
tl;dr : as an oversimplification, yes, protoss can "a-move" to victory (ignoring the need to split templars, throw down storms, ff, guardian shields, keep colossi in the back, warp in units and keep zealots in the front etc), but its only effective if you're dumb enough to let protoss a-move into your army.
Funny thing.. that you tell in the first paragraph, why the 'solution' from later in your post doesn't work. Yes, you can load up 4 medivacs and attack. That means that protoss amoves into you base, completely flattening the remainder of your army. Now toss is sitting at your production facilities killing your base, while your doom drop has to fight against waves of warpins that will wittle it down. Yes, there is supply available, because you will kill probes enabling warpins. Terran will kill all the tech of protoss leaving only warpgates, but protoss will kill everything of terran.
For your tl;dr: I love how you put 'keep colossus in the back" and "keep zealots in the front" in there.. because that's what happens when you amove. Colossus will stay back, zealots will charge to the front. Late-game when you have double splash you don't need forcefields - you just need storms and maybe guardian shield (which is like hitting stim a non-issue). So yes..a-move and casually strolling forward with your pre-split templar to place storms where is seems fitting will produce decent results. FAR better results than a terran army hitting stim and a-moving into a protoss army with a few emps thrown into unit clumps when the fight is half-way done.
Nonsense. No professional protoss player is amoving. There is lots of micro that has to be done, to make a protoss army an efficient one. Just because you are ignorant about it, doesnt meant its not there and its not being done.
Please highlight in my text, where I implied that any professional protoss is a-moving.
Re-read please, then I'd appreciate an answer to my post. Not to what you think I might have posted.
Then whats the essence of your post? You are obviously implying that protoss is all about a-moving and a some pre split templars.
The fact is, zealots even with charge are slower than the stalkers, so you have to pay attention that they are in the front. You have to manually pull the stalkers back. Using blink to do it is the lazy mans way and suboptimal, because it puts your blink on cool down, and hinders further blink micro with the stalkers (to snipe vikings for example). Sentries are also much, much slower at this stage of the game, than the rest of your army, so using guardian shield for the chargelots is no easy task. Just to refresh your memory, movement speeds for the units are as follows:
Our current stance on this is we believe slight imbalances in maps actually make the game more interesting, as long as the imbalances aren’t too great.
For example, our data shows a 70% PvT win ratio on Cloud Kingdom, a 62% win ratio in PvZ on Korhal Compound, and a 37% win ratio on Metalopolis for TvZ
Our current stance on this is we believe slight imbalances in maps actually make the game more interesting, as long as the imbalances aren’t too great.
For example, our data shows a 70% PvT win ratio on Cloud Kingdom, a 62% win ratio in PvZ on Korhal Compound, and a 37% win ratio on Metalopolis for TvZ
The funniest part of the whole thing for me.
Agreed, "imbalance is fun!"
It really shows how ignorant blizzard are. I don't anything about software development, or game design ect. but i think it would quite a good thing for e-sports if someone was able to figure a way out to bypass bnet0.2 and get back to the way it was in BW (ie. using iccup ect)
On April 28 2012 08:30 ticklishmusic wrote: I think the problem with TvP lategame is not that Terrans can't beat Protoss, its just that the game is designed in a way that Terran think they can't win.
So, we know the usual uber macro lategame Terran 3/3 bio force loses to the Protoss "deathball" pretty much no matter what. EMP's, snipes, etc. are, admittedly, tricky to hit, and make a lot of big engagements essentially coinflip wins. Also, Terran's biggest is that they pretty much lose when their centralized production facilities get attacked.
In a very good article which I forget the name of, the OP (if someone can think of it and PM me the name) discusses the "idea" behind SC2. Basically, the flashy graphics and everything want players to go in with big army and bash each other to death, then rinse and repeat. Sure its cool-- you see the BL/ imbafestor combo slowly pushing across the map with constant streams of reinforcements while the other side desperately tries to stop the tide with waves of reinforcements, or when War of the Worlds happens in an epic PvP. Yay, starcraft machinma.
Thing is, it simply doesn't work. Toss's supply efficiency becomes, essentially, king lategame when resources become less of a restriction on army value when combined with lots of warpgates and double/triple robo or stargate with chrono. People need to simply stop trying to tackle Toss head on. That is simply the wrong way to beat Toss, and it makes me facepalm so hard when people say "lategame Toss army imba". It's true, but that deathball army is only one aspect of the game, and there are other points where Toss is weaker.
Drops do not magically stop working lategame. If a Toss is maxxed, he can't warp in more stuff. Toss units move at different speeds and in different ways. BC's are really good against Toss (meaning, Toss has no efficient counter). With mules, Terrans can potentially have a larger army. Those are just a couple things off the top of my head.
For the note, I'm Masters Protoss, I do play Terran about 20% of the time, and my PvT winrate is around 40%.
tl;dr : as an oversimplification, yes, protoss can "a-move" to victory (ignoring the need to split templars, throw down storms, ff, guardian shields, keep colossi in the back, warp in units and keep zealots in the front etc), but its only effective if you're dumb enough to let protoss a-move into your army.
Funny thing.. that you tell in the first paragraph, why the 'solution' from later in your post doesn't work. Yes, you can load up 4 medivacs and attack. That means that protoss amoves into you base, completely flattening the remainder of your army. Now toss is sitting at your production facilities killing your base, while your doom drop has to fight against waves of warpins that will wittle it down. Yes, there is supply available, because you will kill probes enabling warpins. Terran will kill all the tech of protoss leaving only warpgates, but protoss will kill everything of terran.
For your tl;dr: I love how you put 'keep colossus in the back" and "keep zealots in the front" in there.. because that's what happens when you amove. Colossus will stay back, zealots will charge to the front. Late-game when you have double splash you don't need forcefields - you just need storms and maybe guardian shield (which is like hitting stim a non-issue). So yes..a-move and casually strolling forward with your pre-split templar to place storms where is seems fitting will produce decent results. FAR better results than a terran army hitting stim and a-moving into a protoss army with a few emps thrown into unit clumps when the fight is half-way done.
Nonsense. No professional protoss player is amoving. There is lots of micro that has to be done, to make a protoss army an efficient one. Just because you are ignorant about it, doesnt meant its not there and its not being done.
Please highlight in my text, where I implied that any professional protoss is a-moving.
Re-read please, then I'd appreciate an answer to my post. Not to what you think I might have posted.
Then whats the essence of your post? You are obviously implying that protoss is all about a-moving and a some pre split templars.
The fact is, zealots even with charge are slower than the stalkers, so you have to pay attention that they are in the front. You have to manually pull the stalkers back. Using blink to do it is the lazy mans way and suboptimal, because it puts your blink on cool down, and hinders further blink micro with the stalkers (to snipe vikings for example). Sentries are also much, much slower at this stage of the game, than the rest of your army, so using guardian shield for the chargelots is no easy task. Just to refresh your memory, movement speeds for the units are as follows:
Protoss armies are hard to control to their full potential. Period.
The essence of my post was that a) - you cannot run from a protoss army forever and the warp-in mechanic means that terrans will lose the base race.
b) - most of the 'really hard control stuffz' (careful: hyperbole) brought up by ticklishmusic happens automatically. Unless you walk a really really long distance and your zealots will start charging the moment stalkers get in range. If it really happened and zealots are stuck behind stalkers, you are 'punished' (careful: sarcasm) by haveing to put an ability on a 10 second cooldown. This is apparently not so bad though, as many GSL protosses have their whole army on one hotkey - Artosis complains about it on a regular basis.
c) - that with the minimal micro outlines, the protoss army does decent. Which is way better than a terran army does controlled in the same way.
Of course protoss armies are hard to control to their full potential. Terran armies are also hard to control to their full potential. I'd argue that 80% of the potential of a protoss army is easier to unleash than 80% of the potential of a terran army.
On April 27 2012 10:19 Sajaki wrote: Nothing about TvP lategame what a joke.
let it cook a little, untill terrans figure it out just like toss had to
Yeah Protoss had to figure out so much man. Terrans use Thors - Thors nerfed. Terrans use BFH - blue flame nerfed. Terrans use 2 rax - 2 rax nerfed. Protoss don't use Warp Prism, Blizzard buffs Warp Prism and Protoss start to use it. Yeah man, you sure had to figure a lot of things out.
There's nothing to figure out. Terran higher tech units (Tanks, Thors, Ravens, BCs) are horrible against Protoss, and not good enough against Zerg. That's why Terrans are sticking to MMM all game long.
But isn't the main issue of TvP "difficulty" the power of lategame Protoss AoE and mass chargelot warpins? Those things have always been around. The Protoss AoE has not been patched in almost a year, and nothing has changed regarding warpins. The main things that give Terran trouble have always been around. We learned how to utilize them, now it is your turn.
On April 27 2012 10:19 Sajaki wrote: Nothing about TvP lategame what a joke.
let it cook a little, untill terrans figure it out just like toss had to
Yeah Protoss had to figure out so much man. Terrans use Thors - Thors nerfed. Terrans use BFH - blue flame nerfed. Terrans use 2 rax - 2 rax nerfed. Protoss don't use Warp Prism, Blizzard buffs Warp Prism and Protoss start to use it. Yeah man, you sure had to figure a lot of things out.
There's nothing to figure out. Terran higher tech units (Tanks, Thors, Ravens, BCs) are horrible against Protoss, and not good enough against Zerg. That's why Terrans are sticking to MMM all game long.
But isn't the main issue of TvP "difficulty" the power of lategame Protoss AoE and mass chargelot warpins? Those things have always been around. The Protoss AoE has not been patched in almost a year, and nothing has changed regarding warpins. The main things that give Terran trouble have always been around. We learned how to utilize them, now it is your turn.
The solution's already out, early to mid game aggression. Terran obviously isn't as efficient against 200/200 Protoss so as a Terran, what motivation is there to deal with it?
On April 28 2012 08:30 ticklishmusic wrote: I think the problem with TvP lategame is not that Terrans can't beat Protoss, its just that the game is designed in a way that Terran think they can't win.
So, we know the usual uber macro lategame Terran 3/3 bio force loses to the Protoss "deathball" pretty much no matter what. EMP's, snipes, etc. are, admittedly, tricky to hit, and make a lot of big engagements essentially coinflip wins. Also, Terran's biggest is that they pretty much lose when their centralized production facilities get attacked.
In a very good article which I forget the name of, the OP (if someone can think of it and PM me the name) discusses the "idea" behind SC2. Basically, the flashy graphics and everything want players to go in with big army and bash each other to death, then rinse and repeat. Sure its cool-- you see the BL/ imbafestor combo slowly pushing across the map with constant streams of reinforcements while the other side desperately tries to stop the tide with waves of reinforcements, or when War of the Worlds happens in an epic PvP. Yay, starcraft machinma.
Thing is, it simply doesn't work. Toss's supply efficiency becomes, essentially, king lategame when resources become less of a restriction on army value when combined with lots of warpgates and double/triple robo or stargate with chrono. People need to simply stop trying to tackle Toss head on. That is simply the wrong way to beat Toss, and it makes me facepalm so hard when people say "lategame Toss army imba". It's true, but that deathball army is only one aspect of the game, and there are other points where Toss is weaker.
Drops do not magically stop working lategame. If a Toss is maxxed, he can't warp in more stuff. Toss units move at different speeds and in different ways. BC's are really good against Toss (meaning, Toss has no efficient counter). With mules, Terrans can potentially have a larger army. Those are just a couple things off the top of my head.
For the note, I'm Masters Protoss, I do play Terran about 20% of the time, and my PvT winrate is around 40%.
tl;dr : as an oversimplification, yes, protoss can "a-move" to victory (ignoring the need to split templars, throw down storms, ff, guardian shields, keep colossi in the back, warp in units and keep zealots in the front etc), but its only effective if you're dumb enough to let protoss a-move into your army.
Funny thing.. that you tell in the first paragraph, why the 'solution' from later in your post doesn't work. Yes, you can load up 4 medivacs and attack. That means that protoss amoves into you base, completely flattening the remainder of your army. Now toss is sitting at your production facilities killing your base, while your doom drop has to fight against waves of warpins that will wittle it down. Yes, there is supply available, because you will kill probes enabling warpins. Terran will kill all the tech of protoss leaving only warpgates, but protoss will kill everything of terran.
For your tl;dr: I love how you put 'keep colossus in the back" and "keep zealots in the front" in there.. because that's what happens when you amove. Colossus will stay back, zealots will charge to the front. Late-game when you have double splash you don't need forcefields - you just need storms and maybe guardian shield (which is like hitting stim a non-issue). So yes..a-move and casually strolling forward with your pre-split templar to place storms where is seems fitting will produce decent results. FAR better results than a terran army hitting stim and a-moving into a protoss army with a few emps thrown into unit clumps when the fight is half-way done.
Nonsense. No professional protoss player is amoving. There is lots of micro that has to be done, to make a protoss army an efficient one. Just because you are ignorant about it, doesnt meant its not there and its not being done.
Please highlight in my text, where I implied that any professional protoss is a-moving.
Re-read please, then I'd appreciate an answer to my post. Not to what you think I might have posted.
Then whats the essence of your post? You are obviously implying that protoss is all about a-moving and a some pre split templars.
The fact is, zealots even with charge are slower than the stalkers, so you have to pay attention that they are in the front. You have to manually pull the stalkers back. Using blink to do it is the lazy mans way and suboptimal, because it puts your blink on cool down, and hinders further blink micro with the stalkers (to snipe vikings for example). Sentries are also much, much slower at this stage of the game, than the rest of your army, so using guardian shield for the chargelots is no easy task. Just to refresh your memory, movement speeds for the units are as follows:
Protoss armies are hard to control to their full potential. Period.
No. Army movement speed as a reference to "control difficulty" seems flawed to me. If it were true, mech must be the hardest build EVER. Also, Zerg = master race, right? Lings and roaches and infestors and brood lords, so tough!
Besides if you retreat you're guaranteed to lose ghosts since they don't stim and what terran doesn't stim before engaging?
EPT
