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A lot of players weren't believing the system had been reverted. I was positive that the new system was there and I loved it! It's now official:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/5203650/Additional_Matchmaking_Changes-4_23_2012#blog
With the launch of Season 7, we briefly relaxed matchmaking settings to occasionally match players with opponents that were slightly more or less skilled. We quickly found that these changes had undesirable consequences for players at the extreme ends of the skill range, and reverted to the previous matchmaker tuning in response. After analyzing the data and reviewing player feedback, we found that the loosened matchmaking settings also had a positive impact on many players that weren’t playing at those extremes.
With that in mind, we are now ready to move back to the more relaxed matchmaking system, after making some improvements to correct the issues we were seeing. Players should find that a larger proportion of their matches are against opponents of similar skill, but there is some room to allow players to compete against easier and more difficult opponents. As a result of this change, players at the highest and lowest ends of the skill ranges should no longer be negatively impacted by the loosened matchmaking changes.
Matchmaking will not be more relaxed at the highest skill levels. In fact, we’ve tuned matchmaking at the very high end to favor more competitive matches over faster matchmaking. While this may have some impact on match wait times, we believe that this adjustment will improve the ladder experience for high level players and make practicing on the ladder better than it has ever been.
As always, we will continue to monitor the effects of these changes and make further adjustments if necessary.
So, are you finally happy? =)
-----------
Part 2 here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=328799
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The saga continues.
Seems like nice changes on paper.
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I dunno. I've been playing bronze, bronze, silver, gold, repeat the past two days.
I'm not quite sure what exactly is going on with the matchmaking system, but I would like to get off this rollercoaster =)
(I'm Silver.)
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wait so.. they reverted back the change... again?
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Sick, time to jump onto ladder again for dem free points.
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SEA wait times are already so so long at high GM. Well fuck.
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High silver LOL. Seeing gold, silver and platinum. Oo.
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On April 24 2012 10:43 Camlito wrote:
SEA wait times are already so so long at high GM. Well fuck.
Blizzard can change SEA separately from other servers if you guys ask for it. Make a thread on SEA battle.net foruns, they do listen man, try it.
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So that's why I've been playing goldies recently. I was wondering if my skill level had dropped this dramatically. Not that there was much to drop but still.
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This is great to hear. It's so much easier to improve when playing those better than you.
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Yay! I'm hoping that now I'll start getting masters players, seeing as I've been beating most diamonds lately (plat at the moment, but not for long).
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I absolutely hate these changes... I either player high masters that are favored and rarely win or I am favored and only get 2 points for winning and god forbid i lose then I lose 20 points... So for the most part I gain 4 points then lose 2 points a rather long and irritating process... And I don't see how they said they've made it were its majority even games cause that seems to be the rarest of all for me... Maybe I'm an isolated incident and if so I'm glad you guys all like it.
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as windsupernova said, it sounds good on paper. So we'll just have to see  .
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Sounds like decent changes. Let's see how they turn out.
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So what is the Highest and Lowest? I am top 8 masters in my division and still getting diamonds yay I am favored they cheese me and I love 30 points to some scrub love this game. <-- is raging really hard right now.
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Almost every match I play involves a slightly favored. Not sure my thoughts on it yet. It can get annoying when I am playing people who are just as good as me but I get slightly favored  .
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nice! tho im a bit sad i didnt get the chance to play while they were really relaxed on the extreme ends, wanted to see if it would match me vs GMs xD
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I hate it... playing aginst non stop mid masters as a top (750 point) master and getting around 3-8 points for winning... lose 20 points for losing. Sooo frustrating..
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Sitting in diamond, everyone I've played today has been either Masters or Plat
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China6330 Posts
I played last 6 ladder matches with 3 high plats and 2 high golds, I'm silver, srsly, wtf.
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On April 24 2012 10:40 OpTiKDream wrote:
wait so.. they reverted back the change... again?
If you bothered reading, they modified it, the closer you reach the higher/lower ends of the MMR system the more closely your opponents will be in skill. People who are in between those extremes (majority of the sc2 player base) will be effected by these changes. You being high masters should be facing similar skilled opponents more frequantly. Gold, plat and diamond should be the most effected by the change.
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Matchmaking will not be more relaxed at the highest skill levels. In fact, we’ve tuned matchmaking at the very high end to favor more competitive matches over faster matchmaking. While this may have some impact on match wait times, we believe that this adjustment will improve the ladder experience for high level players and make practicing on the ladder better than it has ever been.
Awesome for pros. They can fit in more ad revenue while the matchmaker takes longer to find them games, and the games should be much more entertaining to watch and better to play for them.
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Hate this change, tired of getting games worth +3/-20 points at low masters, much rather play an even match vs an opponent at my level than getting crushed by a much better player or getting cheesed by a worse one.
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Has this already come into effect, sitting in gold on Eu and i played a high Silver then next game a mid Diamond, looked at boths match history and the Silver plays Golds/Plats and the Diamond plays Plats/Diamonds :S, was wondering what was up lol ???
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Awesome, playing against better people is always good practice, and playing against worse people is always good for making you feel better!
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SoCal8910 Posts
looking forward to seeing the effects!
honestly, though..i dont look forward to having to scout lower league players and getting hit with bizarre timings and rushes.
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I was wondering why I was playing mid-tier golds today when I am high plat.
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Love the changes, I get to see if I can keep up with higher ranked players and I get to hydra/nydus the lower league ones.
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Negatively impacted? Unless they're changing something this is still bullshit. 4 games in a row I go from playing Fenrir and SeleCT to 2 fucking diamonds one of whom 4 gates and I lose 22 points? Highest level? What do I have to be? HuK? It was a good idea in theory but they have to work on the execution still, way too many of my matches are starting with me favored, you have to use completely different builds and it give little practice, often ending in frustration regardless of if I win or lose. All these +5 points half of the people can't even build workers worth a damn if they don't allin.
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Its pretty lame on a small population server like SEA. 1 match im facing like high diamond next match im facing opponents that are not even high silver. Thats with me being high plat.
Worse thing is at silver all ins are really common so theres a good chance I might get 6 rax marine/scv all-in and lose like 20 pts because of that. Even if i hold them off it takes me so long to win them after that its not remotely worth the 5 pts. Its pretty stupid.
Not working as intended would be a euphemistic way of putting it.
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Nice, sounds like they have everything working as intended now. I like playing people a little outside my skill range. I thought it was a little weird when I was playing PainUser earlier o_O Thankfully I only lost 3 points for it haha
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So pointless, I don't think anybody really had a problem with the way the matchmaking originally worked why does Blizzard feel the need to make these useless changes meanwhile there's dozens of other horrible flaws with Bnet that continue to go ignored.
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RIP SEA Grand Master League.
already takes like 2 hours to get a game....
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This is still rly annoying T_T at mid masters I play a ton of top masters, played a couple GM's, and now I'm playing diamonds. I don't like this at all. :/
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I like the changes, they definitely gave me a boost up on ladder.
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I already thought i would get demoted. I've been plaing tons of goldies yesterday, despite my winning run that day.
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On April 24 2012 11:28 digmouse wrote:
I played last 6 ladder matches with 3 high plats and 2 high golds, I'm silver, srsly, wtf.
im mid diamond right now and I just played a rank 1 gold player lol. I bet he was pretty pissed after >.<
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Is this only for 1v1 or does it affect team games?
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Hmm, something weird happened the other day I lost a match when I was favored and got -20, but my opponent was masters and so was I O.o
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That would explain how I ended up playing bronze and gold players one after another yesterday.
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Kinda scared me before i read this post, As a high diamond, playing other high diamonds, then bam i hit a rank 40 platinum.
I thought "omg wat i do"
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On April 24 2012 12:04 the`postman wrote:
Hate this change, tired of getting games worth +3/-20 points at low masters, much rather play an even match vs an opponent at my level than getting crushed by a much better player or getting cheesed by a worse one.
LOL i know that feeling
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I've been in diamond for the past year and a half, ever since season one, lol. And yet, for some reason, this is the only season when I haven't been able to get top 8 with ease. I'm having to play a lot more, and i'm still barely making top 25...
I think I have played an unusual amount of master's players, and a few platinums mixed in, so it feels like the whole ladder system is different than it used to be for me. Maybe I'm just in a tougher division this time? I'm really not sure, but something feels quite different.
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Why are people so worried about their opponent? If you're trying to improve your game then it doesn't matter if your opponent is right at your skill level, you still have holes to improve on.
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This would explain the 0-6 slide I've had today, and why the hell I was playing a GM in diamond.
..damn it, Blizzard
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Interesting. I'd rather play a bunch of masters players and lose all my games than play other diamonds all day, so I think this is a really good thing. I also dont mind playing a bunch of platinum players to rack up some wins. Either way, I'm happy.
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Hopefully they get this whole system right. Honestly, the original system (which they seem to keep reverting too) was okay in my opinion. For top players I can imagine the que times to be long but, that comes with being at the top.
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Seems like the MMR range is still huge? Why is it so huge. If I am a 500 masters player, pairing me up with 200-800 masters players (assuming I'm winning 50% and not "improving" relatively) is fine, instead of just 400-600. Mid diamond can face high diamond or low diamond. But gold or masters? please no o.o
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On April 24 2012 11:27 Kovaz wrote:
Sitting in diamond, everyone I've played today has been either Masters or Plat
This. I'm close to masters as well but hard to get promoted when I play the same plat Terran 3 games in a row for 15 points -_- .
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Canada13389 Posts
On April 24 2012 14:52 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Seems like the MMR range is still huge? Why is it so huge. If I am a 500 masters player, pairing me up with 200-800 masters players (assuming I'm winning 50% and not "improving" relatively) is fine, instead of just 400-600. Mid diamond can face high diamond or low diamond. But gold or masters? please no o.o
Im diamond and I've played a top master who had a 78% win rate the other day.
Matchmaking was fine before, theres a lot of other things they could be working on other than this -_-
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On April 24 2012 15:00 schmutttt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 11:27 Kovaz wrote:
Sitting in diamond, everyone I've played today has been either Masters or Plat This. I'm close to masters as well but hard to get promoted when I play the same plat Terran 3 games in a row for 15 points -_- .
Imagine how the plat player feels ...
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so this explains why I'm playing an extra amount of horrible 1build allin low masters users.
I don't know why I play mainly on NA ladder.
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god im SOOOO FUCKING ANGRY about this
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I kinda like this, playing a few bad players and then a really epic match against 1 good player. Not too bad and more relaxing.
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i would like to see them reduce the variability of your opponents to about 75 percent of what it is, and of course this will probably need to be changed in the future pending further matchmaking balance issues
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I don't know... I'm silver and playing against bronze an high gold. it's pretty stupid. against bronze it's sadly easy and against gold is hard as hell. All i can say, that those are not enoyable games.
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Not a fan of these changes at all. What's really going on here, is that it's becoming harder to gauge your actual progress when you're not playing opponents of a similar skill level in favor for shorter ladder que times. Many will disagree, but I find it utterly anti-competitive; that is not saying you can't still try and compete, but now it's more like college football players playing one game against a special olympics team, then immediately playing against an NFL team. I neither enjoy smashing people on the ladder, or like being smashed in turn, in a very one-sided match up.
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i dont like this...i feel like i learn a lot more facing people similar to my skill. Beating up on someone lower league than me teaches me nothing. Facing someone much better does help but so does facing people my level all the time.
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this doesnt make any sense, because then it is the players in the second highest skillset that can only lose..
i actually support the new matchmaking system, just saying that their argumentation is flawed..
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Yea...even after the supposed reverted changes, it has been a rollercoaster for me. As others have mentioned, the system has not been normal over the last few days.
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I was playing a mid platinum player and then a masters in a row n my second account. I thought my mmr was really messed up since the changes were reverted.
My main one was playing high masters at one point.
I got stomped.
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Happened occasionally recently that I, at the top of gold league, get matched vs. a plat player, win, and then get matched with a silver player. I knew there was something going on. 
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Why can't they just keep the original matchmaking system, there were never any complaints about it before. It really just seems like they are tampering with something for the sake of tampering.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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Zzz... Blizzard always working hard on inane and worthless projects that the community could care less about, while completely ignoring the universally recognized issues.
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On April 24 2012 12:29 Badfatpanda wrote:
Negatively impacted? Unless they're changing something this is still bullshit. 4 games in a row I go from playing Fenrir and SeleCT to 2 fucking diamonds one of whom 4 gates and I lose 22 points? Highest level? What do I have to be? HuK? It was a good idea in theory but they have to work on the execution still, way too many of my matches are starting with me favored, you have to use completely different builds and it give little practice, often ending in frustration regardless of if I win or lose. All these +5 points half of the people can't even build workers worth a damn if they don't allin.
dont wanna sound mean, but you losing a game to someone much lower than you who "just 4gated" is probably a good impact of this change. if anything consider it a way to fine tune your play
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^exactly, people complaining about losing to cheese and getting -20 from a lower rated opponent need to brush up their play. There is absolutely no excuse for losing to cheese. Learn to deal with it
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Who else but blizzard to change something that didn't really need to be fixed.
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This is like the best fucking example of fixing what ain't broke. I don't see how I can gauge my progress anymore either, if I as a diamond face platinums to masters. Previously it was great to see that when I played well I was facing high diamond, but when on losing streaks, low diamonds. Now this shit.
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Does this go into effect immediately or next season? It's unclear.
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On April 24 2012 18:23 Manimal_pro wrote:
^exactly, people complaining about losing to cheese and getting -20 from a lower rated opponent need to brush up their play. There is absolutely no excuse for losing to cheese. Learn to deal with it
I kinda agree with this. If you're losing to a cheese/whatever executed by someone at a much lower skill level than you, you're going to be in a lot of trouble if you meet someone doing it properly at your own level...
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On April 24 2012 10:40 felisconcolori wrote:
I dunno. I've been playing bronze, bronze, silver, gold, repeat the past two days.
I'm not quite sure what exactly is going on with the matchmaking system, but I would like to get off this rollercoaster =)
(I'm Silver.)
Bronze is free points. Be glad.
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I'm really not enjoying crushing Platinums and getting stomped by Masters. I hope this will be changed back at some point.
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Free wins a free win. Ty blizzard. I am going to enjoy beating up on noobs.
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dont wanna sound mean, but you losing a game to someone much lower than you who "just 4gated" is probably a good impact of this change. if anything consider it a way to fine tune your play
^exactly, people complaining about losing to cheese and getting -20 from a lower rated opponent need to brush up their play. There is absolutely no excuse for losing to cheese. Learn to deal with it
Incredibly moot points; even pros lose to cheese. Refinement would be better done with an equally matched opponent who would follow through with a similar tempo to yours after a cheese opening instead of just GG'ing out if it didn't work, or not waste your time by spending another 10 minutes playing out a game you know you already won.
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even the idea is good, winning 2 points for a win and loosing 30 is so BAD ...
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LOL beat a platinum and then lost to a silver as mid-gold. I quite like the changes, more variety in MUs
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On April 24 2012 18:35 DarKcS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 10:40 felisconcolori wrote:
I dunno. I've been playing bronze, bronze, silver, gold, repeat the past two days.
I'm not quite sure what exactly is going on with the matchmaking system, but I would like to get off this rollercoaster =)
(I'm Silver.) Bronze is free points. Be glad.
Free points that take too damn long to get, and show me nothing except that someone thinks that rushing to a BC will stop 3/3 Marines. Or that late game mass-thor transition will do the same off of 3 base while I've got 6 bases and enough rax to pump 20-30 marines at a time.
Yeah, sure, it feels nice to play a game where I can pretend I'm MKP, but that stops when I get a gold 4gate to the face in the next game. And there's absolutely no way to know whether this next game will be normal, a joke (for me), or a joke (for my opponent). Spanking bronze players also doesn't do a whole lot for improvement, and it can start upsetting any ladder confidence. (Ohnoohnoohno I just played 3 bronzes AM I GETTING DEMOTED?!?!? oh wait there's a Plat... wat?!)
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This is so weird. Even after the change was reverted I've felt like theres a lot more uneven matches. Now with this change it's prolly going to be totally crazy again. I guess that the "Players should find that a larger proportion of their matches are against opponents of similar skill" part didnt quite come true, just like it didn't on the first try
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They said it was reverted, but I have to agree with others. After they announced it some time ago, my matchmaking have been more off than ever. Being in plat; If I won a game, i faced a diamond, if I lost to that player I got a mid gold.Beting that player easily, I once again got a diamond opponent. Not fun at all, and it went on for 10 games that day.
Hopefully this will change something
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i wish blizzard didnt announce this, but changed it secretly, so people would not complain constantly about stuff they dont know.
Do you know the Matchmaking algorithm? Can you exactly say WHY you got this opponent?
What if the diamond you hit as a plat yesterday was on a losing streak the day before and his mmr was kind of smiliar to yours? You cant tell, because you DONT SEE THE MMR.
The same shit happened from season 1 to now. Ive played my fair share of games this season (about 150) and I havent felt jackshit happening.
Seriously, people take this only as a excuse for losses.
I can understand why it fucked up at GM and Bronze level, but everyone else is just overreacting as usual.
Just because you sit in Diamond doesnt mean you'll always play diamonds. You will hit people in YOUR MMR RANGE. If some diamond player start a new account in bronze, he will skyrocket the MMR so hard, that he will still be in silver and hit platinums. To people complaining that they lose to many points when they lose to a bronzie as golds or something. Actually you should not lose. If you lose to bronzies and with that a lot of points, you should really think about why you lost to such bad players. And if you get bronzies all the times, maybe there is a demotion incoming.
The Change Blizzard introduced will give you a better/worse opponent fomr TIME TO TIME. If you hit gold diamond gold diamond in a row, the probability is high, that those people have a similair MMR.
Stop complaining and fix your play, so you can stop complaining on a forum that you lost 20 points to a worse player (deservingly).
I welcome this change, should make promotions happen faster.
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Russian Federation484 Posts
On April 24 2012 19:43 WizardofGGG wrote:
I welcome this change, should make promotions happen faster.
Can't agree more.
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If you hit gold diamond gold diamond in a row, the probability is high, that those people have a similair MMR.
Stop complaining and fix your play, so you can stop complaining on a forum that you lost 20 points to a worse player (deservingly).
The thing is that I checked their profiles afterwards to see their stats, and most of them were actually in their respective league in terms of wins against other players. I know perfectly that people can be above or beyond their league in terms of MMR, but the ones I was facing were certainly not.
To me theres nothing really wrong with this system regarding losing and gaining points etc (since it doesnt affect me that much), but I personally don't find it fun playing people way better or lesser skilled than me. I prefer an even match any time, rather than constantly switching of the opponents skill level just because of a loss or a win.
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On April 24 2012 18:40 CoR wrote:
even the idea is good, winning 2 points for a win and loosing 30 is so BAD ...
Yeah I am pretty uncomfortable with the many games where I've been favoured recently. I just hate, hate meeting a protoss where I'm favoured, as I know he'll have a shot better than the stats give him. I could prolly win every tvt without exceptions (and it's my weak MU) at that skill level, but those mass timing pushes from P can make any point whore tremble.
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This whole week I have only had 1 'even match', in all other games someone is slightly favoured.
Does this update mean it will get even worse?
I really don't like it. Losing 18 points to a 2base colossus timing by a top 50 master is rather demotivating, especially since I'm a top 50 master myself, i don't understand why I was favoured in the first place.
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As someone who can't play that many ladder matches, it's really annoying when you keep getting +3/-20 diamonds. I cringe every time I see that I'm favored and playing against another terran because I know it's going to take a while to get those 3 ladder points. Cheese is annoying too in 3/-20 games. It hardly ever works, but it's annoying to lose an entire night's worth of laddering with one micro mistake. I don't mind -6/+18 or -18/+6 games, but anything less than 6 points is pretty annoying. I wish at least 50% of my games where between 10 and 14 points for wins/losses. And then maybe the other 50% could be 6-18.
I feel like most of the people who support this are just lower league players who think this will meen they get promoted.
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On April 24 2012 20:30 Blindo wrote:
I feel like most of the people who support this are just lower league players who think this will meen they get promoted.
Exactly what I was thinking.
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On April 24 2012 20:23 Laurens wrote:
This whole week I have only had 1 'even match', in all other games someone is slightly favoured.
Does this update mean it will get even worse?
I really don't like it. Losing 18 points to a 2base colossus timing by a top 50 master is rather demotivating, especially since I'm a top 50 master myself, i don't understand why I was favoured in the first place.
How many games have you played since the reset?
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I like part 3 better than any other, it was fun getting matched up with a master league player.
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It says the very top will still search for better opponents still, how does this affects me as a high master already facing GM players? Will this mean I will not be able to face the highest top and instead face people at mid-master perhaps?
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As a Diamond player I like the changes. It's always nice to gain confidence by getting an easy win over someone who is 1 league under you or getting the chance to learn something new even when you clearly lose against someone a league higher.
btw.: what's your problem guys? You will get better and worse opponents so you won't get demoted or promoted to early because of this system change. It's a chance for you and adds variety into ladderplay.
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On April 24 2012 20:38 EmilA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 20:23 Laurens wrote:
This whole week I have only had 1 'even match', in all other games someone is slightly favoured.
Does this update mean it will get even worse?
I really don't like it. Losing 18 points to a 2base colossus timing by a top 50 master is rather demotivating, especially since I'm a top 50 master myself, i don't understand why I was favoured in the first place. How many games have you played since the reset?
if the reset happened today on EU, 3. 1 time the opponent was slightly favoured, 2 times it was me
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im mid to high master league, I'm playing either top 8 masters or rank 50 diamonds. Which basically means theres no point in playing ladder lol I'm better off playing against teammates of similar skill than playing a rank 1 master, then next game is rank 50 diamond
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Lost to a guy in masters, then played three consecutive mid platinum players. Doesn't make sense.
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On April 24 2012 20:43 roym899 wrote:btw.: what's your problem guys? You will get better and worse opponents so you won't get demoted or promoted to early because of this system change. It's a chance for you and adds variety into ladderplay.
The problem is that the matches get more predictable, and predictable matches are pointless and boring. It's not as if the matches before the change weren't varied enough. Different opponent use different strategies, and sometimes players have wrong MMR for various reasons. Blizzard are trying to solve a problem that didn't exist.
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I still don't see the point, one of the few good things about battle net 2.0 has always been thats it's one of the few matchmaking systems that is actually good at matching you vs players that are pretty much exactly as good as you are, I still don't see the point in changing it.
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I am very distasteful of the change, to be honest. Before, Ladder was a reliable judge of how I was improving. I almost always played someone almost exactly as skilled as me, and I could very reliably judge my ability to handle different things or execute my plans at that skill level. Now I either play people so much better than me that Its tough to really do any focused learning from the match, or I play people who are so utterly awful that I wonder if they're even at the keyboard. I'm not sure I understand what's wrong with just allowing people to play other people at the same skill level? I don't think I understand why the change was necessary... Do they think this will fix ladder anxiety so many casual gamers suffer? Get real.....
On April 24 2012 15:45 mell0w wrote:
Not a fan of these changes at all. What's really going on here, is that it's becoming harder to gauge your actual progress when you're not playing opponents of a similar skill level in favor for shorter ladder que times. Many will disagree, but I find it utterly anti-competitive; that is not saying you can't still try and compete, but now it's more like college football players playing one game against a special olympics team, then immediately playing against an NFL team. I neither enjoy smashing people on the ladder, or like being smashed in turn, in a very one-sided match up.
Ya... Blizzard doesn't seem to be interested in gauging progress, actually. They seem to have this attitude that if you're not in GM then you should get lumped in with casuals... Remember when they took losses off of people's records so they wouldn't be so afraid to play? God forbid someone want to know how they're doing...
I didn't really care too much about that change because I can track it with a 3rd party program like gears... but this one? With the lousy chat interface its impossible to get practice partners anyway, so I have to resort to laddering... which is broken for this purpose as of now.
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I noticed this yesterday when I played and beat a platinum player... my next opponent was a top silver? WTF, I like to use my opponents league/rank to determine how well I am currently doing, not a fan of this loosened system.
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matchmakinception
E: I still feel the entire league/devision system should be replaced by two simple numbers
representing the mmr and how solid it is.
I am sick and tired of ppl rating them self as "high XY" when all they do is clearing their bonus-pool and comparing the result on a random devision which might be or not be aktive at all".
below masters it is a nightmare to analyse a profile.
I want to know my mmr (no a win/loss is not even close to that)
I want to know my stats vs each race
I want to know my stats on each map
I know all this can be done elsewise but that is no excuse for a bad UI...
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I just want to know what they mean by "relaxed"
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I'm high diamond (actually got promoted like 2 weeks ago but have 80% win rate over 50 games since then) and have also noticed that I have been playing a lot of plats and masters but, its kinda cool, I took out my first masters the other day and was so happy, when I lost to my first masters PVP i creeped his build after and at least learned something. I think this change is good, but I do agree that the +/- points system should be more normalized, losing a PvP to sum plat nub cannoner would seriously enrage me. Truthfully if you want to get better at high levels the ONLY way is to play against people who are better than you and lose so you can find out what went wrong!!! DONT BE SCARED OF THE LADDER!
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there should be a feature in which players can watch replays as they wait for matchmaking
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I really enjoy playing matches against players who are much higher skilled than myself. Because I see how much I'm actually capeable of. I also like playing against players wil much LESS skill because I'll end up just rolling them. ROFL
However, in the end, I like just playing good SC2...the ranking or skill level of my opponent should have no impact on my overall performance level. The game should be fun...And since it's a game with a ranking system..we naturaly want to be higher ranked. The only way to get there is to improve. Playing against better players is the ONLY way to get better. By ALL meens...put me up against M and GM players if possible!!!!!
-Tommy-
REFLEX_500
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I have noticed that they hadn't really changed much.. or didnt completely revert it. I'm glad to hear it's true..
Especially since I would play like 5 people in a row where I was favored, barely have to try, and get hardly any points of out it.. Then I'd lose one of the matches I'm favored and lose as much as two or three wins vs favored..
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Yeah I think blizzard has screwed up the match-making system. I am a high diamond to low master mmr player but all only play plat and masters on ladder. I get 2 points for beating plat opponent and lose 6-10 for losing to masters opponents its a screwed up system at the moment but hopefully blizzard can get in under-control soon.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 24 2012 21:15 Lorch wrote:
I still don't see the point, one of the few good things about battle net 2.0 has always been thats it's one of the few matchmaking systems that is actually good at matching you vs players that are pretty much exactly as good as you are, I still don't see the point in changing it.
My thoughts too =/
I see a lot of people saying how they like this change because it makes them play against better opponents, well, those 'better opponents' are annoyed because they have to play you. It's much better if everyone is playing similar skill than this =/
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I think it's extremely important that the best of the best aren't affected by this. Finding opponents of similar skill is much more important for them than quickly finding a match. I'm glad Blizzard addressed that and I would like to hear some feedback from the Pro's or top GM's whether or not that's actually working.
As for lower skill levels, I am a Diamond Protoss and it's amazing to mainly play Master opponents as it really requires me to polish my builds. I've laddered a lot lately and I really feel like my builds have improved.
I really like the diversity of opponents. Nothing to complain about (yet).
Edit: It would be amazing if they would implement a choice between "Quick!" and "Close match!".
This way you could choose whether or not you want to be matched quickly (bigger range of MMR) or with the closest MMR (might lead to longer waiting time).
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I am excited about the change because of the chance to improve.
Also people please realize this doesn't mean you will only being playing people above or below you, you will still play people of the same or similar MMR but in the midst of that you will also play others.
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I think blizzard should follow the simple common sense rule
"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."
and that, in a few words, describes how they fucked up the only good part about Bnet 2.0 . I don't want to have to just go and play scrubs then go play some top level guys, that really screws up one of the only ways i can look at my progress now
T___T Blizzard stop fucking up the game .__________________________.
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MMR should be visible, and users should have an option to set what range of opponents to choose from.
For example so you could set from +/-5% to +/-50% of your MMR. Or even you could choose something like "search from -5% to 25%"... and next day you would set it to "-25% to 5%" when you would want more easy games.
This way everyone could have matches they want.
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i dont understand the OP very well
could some math professor explain to me if i get games faster or slower against more even or less even players assuming im around rank 15~ GM?
would be very appreciated thanks
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I don't know what was wrong with the ladder to make them go on with these changes, or change anything in the first place. Why would you want less even competition in favor of unpredictability? Still doesn't make sense to me.
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I think Blizz would do best with just adding the option for people to choose if they want to play against opponents of wider MMR range or if the don't want to. Overall it should be balanced for everyone, so everyone settles at a 50% win-rate but the players who want to allow to play against wider ranges are allowed to and the ones who try to gauge their skill with even opponents and who want to train with even opponents have the option for it.
Maybe there would be problems because only players with lower MMR would toggle that option, but I think it's at least worth a test.
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I love it, blizzard nails these changes. Really appreciate theyve been taking our feedback so serious.
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I still think this move is not just about trying to vary the gameplay experience. I think they are just being proactive about this as the number of people playing on ladder shrinks over time. There will not be another influx until Heart of the Swarm. If you do it now you can spin it as a gameplay thing, if you do it six months from now it may look desperate.
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I try to give Blizzard the benefit of the doubt, but I have the very strong feeling that they are either lying or made a mistake when rolling back their changes. Season 6, I consistently received or lost 11, 12 or 13 points (ignoring bonus pool) for every game I played, with very few exceptions. From the first day of Season 7, without any noticable change after they announced the rollback, I've been getting anywhere from 6 to 20 points.
I'm wary of reading too much into people saying they're facing people from the wrong league, because there's so much overlap between the leagues and you can end up with an MMR that's much higher than your league average without getting promoted if you go on a win streak (due to a high uncertainty), but the number of points you get is based on your actual MMR (once your points stabilize around your MMR, which mine should have by now) and your opponent's, so a high variability in that should be a clear indication that you're facing opponents with highly variable MMR.
In my heart of hearts, I think Blizzard announced the change, it got complained about, and they announced they'd rolled it back to calm the criticism but didn't actually change anything. Now they say they fixed the problems high-MMR players were having with the system; I'd be curious to hear if any of you high masters/GM players notice a difference?
Edited to add: To be clear, I actually prefer the new system, because I treat laddering as BO practice. I can tell how well I'm executing my BO even if my opponent is so bad that I win even after making silly mistakes, and I can learn the little holes in my execution when I get smashed by a much better player.
@MorroW, assuming the OP is correct, as a GM player you should be getting longer wait times, but more evenly matched opponents.
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On April 24 2012 21:43 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 21:15 Lorch wrote:
I still don't see the point, one of the few good things about battle net 2.0 has always been thats it's one of the few matchmaking systems that is actually good at matching you vs players that are pretty much exactly as good as you are, I still don't see the point in changing it. My thoughts too =/ I see a lot of people saying how they like this change because it makes them play against better opponents, well, those 'better opponents' are annoyed because they have to play you. It's much better if everyone is playing similar skill than this =/
the only logical reason i can see for their desperation to make a change to relax to the rules is they want to hide that there are less players laddering. the average player wont read the changes, doesnt read team liquid and has no idea about how leagues work. all they care about is queue times, if they see that it takes longer to get a game they may be disheartened from playing, by relaxing the rules blizzard are probably hoping for more players to keep playing.
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On April 24 2012 21:43 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 21:15 Lorch wrote:
I still don't see the point, one of the few good things about battle net 2.0 has always been thats it's one of the few matchmaking systems that is actually good at matching you vs players that are pretty much exactly as good as you are, I still don't see the point in changing it. My thoughts too =/ I see a lot of people saying how they like this change because it makes them play against better opponents, well, those 'better opponents' are annoyed because they have to play you. It's much better if everyone is playing similar skill than this =/
Exactly, as a highish master ladder was really good practice, a GM from time to time and high master for the rest, the opposition i'll meet in cw/daily tournaments. If i've to play vs low master it's just a waste of time and i'd rather skip completely the ladder.
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On April 24 2012 22:15 ZisforZerg wrote:
I don't know what was wrong with the ladder to make them go on with these changes, or change anything in the first place. Why would you want less even competition in favor of unpredictability? Still doesn't make sense to me.
I guess some people like the feeling of getting it shoved up their behinds by stronger players. I don't. Neither do I like doing it to weaker players. I play for fun, and fun means balanced games. If I were training for entering a tournament maybe I would think differently, but for me this is a computer game only. Like Minecraft, you know. It's fun. Or it was, rather.
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I had the feeling as well that something wasn't right. But I like this change. Go Blizz!
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Btw whats up with the Maps? Out of the last 15gms I played 8 of them on OHANA LE...
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Beat top 100 NA players
Play rank 70 master people with a negative record next game
sc2 ladder es #1
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Im in diamond, i have played everyone from High high gold, mid-high plat, and diamonds. I guess the biggest thing is just to win games and not be worried about who your gonna play against.
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Eh, I haven't played much, but I think my skill level is higher than my mmr. I enjoy when I get paired up with GM( I'm
Mid masters) b/c it's fun and I split 50/50. Against diamonds, I can just practice pure macro, or offrace and do silly strats. Overall, I have a pretty decent winrate (cept against Terran. Good god that 1-1-1.)
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On April 24 2012 22:32 Odal wrote:
Beat top 100 NA players
Play rank 70 master people with a negative record next game
sc2 ladder es #1
... such a good change ...
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On April 24 2012 20:43 roym899 wrote:
As a Diamond player I like the changes. It's always nice to gain confidence by getting an easy win over someone who is 1 league under you or getting the chance to learn something new even when you clearly lose against someone a league higher.
btw.: what's your problem guys? You will get better and worse opponents so you won't get demoted or promoted to early because of this system change. It's a chance for you and adds variety into ladderplay.
as mid master i wont get demoted or promoted for perhaps ever and ever, way to srong to ever go back in diamond, not playing enough to ever reach gm
but the problem i have is not i play gm lose and lose 1 or even 5 points, no the problem are all the diamonds,
sure i can win 10 games and get 2-3 points for all the wins and then 1 diamond is able to cheeserush me and i lose 31 points ... oh jaeh 30-1 winratio and I LOSE POINTS thats how we all love it RIGHT ?
it just makes me play LESS and thats the worst thing a change could make !!!
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I really enjoy the more loosened system, as it feels more rewarding when you occasionally win against a high mastter
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If there was anything wrong with the matchmaking it was that u could even get freaking 5-10 mirror matches in a row. I haven't played in few months though, so I dont know if its possible anymore but man was it depressing.
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The thing you should remember is for every game you lose to a lower ranked player, you should be able to nab one off a higher ranked every now and then. Don't just look at the lower end of the spectrum haha.
As a masters player it sounds interesting. Can't wait to try it tonight.
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On April 24 2012 19:43 WizardofGGG wrote:
i wish blizzard didnt announce this, but changed it secretly, so people would not complain constantly about stuff they dont know.
Do you know the Matchmaking algorithm? Can you exactly say WHY you got this opponent?
What if the diamond you hit as a plat yesterday was on a losing streak the day before and his mmr was kind of smiliar to yours? You cant tell, because you DONT SEE THE MMR.
The same shit happened from season 1 to now. Ive played my fair share of games this season (about 150) and I havent felt jackshit happening.
Seriously, people take this only as a excuse for losses.
I can understand why it fucked up at GM and Bronze level, but everyone else is just overreacting as usual.
Just because you sit in Diamond doesnt mean you'll always play diamonds. You will hit people in YOUR MMR RANGE. If some diamond player start a new account in bronze, he will skyrocket the MMR so hard, that he will still be in silver and hit platinums. To people complaining that they lose to many points when they lose to a bronzie as golds or something. Actually you should not lose. If you lose to bronzies and with that a lot of points, you should really think about why you lost to such bad players. And if you get bronzies all the times, maybe there is a demotion incoming.
The Change Blizzard introduced will give you a better/worse opponent fomr TIME TO TIME. If you hit gold diamond gold diamond in a row, the probability is high, that those people have a similair MMR.
Stop complaining and fix your play, so you can stop complaining on a forum that you lost 20 points to a worse player (deservingly).
I welcome this change, should make promotions happen faster.
That's the whole deal. Blizz has never been transparent with how the MM system works, but people have been smart enough to figure most of it out. No one takes Blizzard ladder seriously, and I don't see how this change will help you get promoted faster, you're skill is the same, it's the same in relation to everyone elses. Nothing changed except the range of opponents you play. And from the sound of what most people are saying, there's no rhyme or reason to the opponents they are getting. Why are people complaining? Probably because like I said, no one cared about ladder. People would rather Blizzard improve the actual gameplay, or the 100 real issues that have been addressed by the community.
Like always, Blizzard is pandering to the casual players. This change just seems like a "Hey, we're gonna give you the illusion that ladder is more fun and you're doing better!." How about LAN yo? How about new 2v2 maps? How about fixing an issue that top players/ pros give a shit about... =_=;
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No doubt!
Does Blizzard like people going to other sites? I would think keeping people on bnet 2.0 would be better instead of logging out and using 3rd party things to analyze their games.
On April 24 2012 21:20 SamsLiST wrote:
matchmakinception
E: I still feel the entire league/devision system should be replaced by two simple numbers
representing the mmr and how solid it is.
I am sick and tired of ppl rating them self as "high XY" when all they do is clearing their bonus-pool and comparing the result on a random devision which might be or not be aktive at all".
below masters it is a nightmare to analyse a profile.
I want to know my mmr (no a win/loss is not even close to that)
I want to know my stats vs each race
I want to know my stats on each map
I know all this can be done elsewise but that is no excuse for a bad UI...
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I like these changes! Gogogo!
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What I think this means is that low-mid masters will be matched against weaker players without much chance of meeting high/grandmasters
meaning there are many free points to be had on the ladder.
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On April 24 2012 22:15 ZisforZerg wrote:
I don't know what was wrong with the ladder to make them go on with these changes, or change anything in the first place. Why would you want less even competition in favor of unpredictability? Still doesn't make sense to me.
According to what blizzard claims those at the high end of the ladder(You) should not be part of this varied match sequence so you should really only play against very high masters(who have GM potential) or GMs.
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On April 24 2012 21:43 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 21:15 Lorch wrote:
I still don't see the point, one of the few good things about battle net 2.0 has always been thats it's one of the few matchmaking systems that is actually good at matching you vs players that are pretty much exactly as good as you are, I still don't see the point in changing it. My thoughts too =/ I see a lot of people saying how they like this change because it makes them play against better opponents, well, those 'better opponents' are annoyed because they have to play you. It's much better if everyone is playing similar skill than this =/
But don't those 'better opponents' who are annoyed at having to play me also get to play opponents who are better than them? I guess this could be a problem at the very top of the ladder because no one is better than those guys : ) However, I like getting matched up occasionally against high masters players, and I assume they like the opportunity to get matched up against GMs.
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I'm high silver, and I get matched against bronze, silver, gold, and occasionally plat. It's kind of weird.
Some of the bronzes are awesome, and slaughter me. I thought bronze was for scrubs who haven't figured out build orders yet?
Some of the plats are terrible, and admitted they have no idea why the game stuck them in plat after one placement match (which they lost).
But at the end of the day, I'm pretty sure I'm a solid silver, so regardless of the others, at least I'M where I belong.
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I'm fine with relaxed matchmaking standards as I agree with what blizzard said. The system works so well that it will often times pair you against a player so similar to your skill level, that each game is pushed to razors edge. One mistake...one mis-click will often times result in the game ending, and not only can that be frustrating, but it can also hinder progress since you may not get as many opportunities to practice the later parts of the game that you might want.
I for one would appreciate playing someone slightly lower than me so I can move past the all-ins and the cheeses and continue to focus on macro oriented games. Also, having a win/loss ratio of more than 1:1 can have a positive effect on your confidence level. I can only imagine what it would be like to see 50/40 for my wins/losses, heh.
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I really want to play against exactly my skill level. Being in Gold #1 and have easy wins against silver gold or plat but not being promoted sucks
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cool, so its even more finely tuned
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Why does it matter that they "finely tuned" the competition at highest level when anyone can beat anyone there.
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On April 24 2012 10:32 SDream wrote:
So, are you finally happy? =)
You realize you're talking to starcraft players, right?
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Is anyone wondering why they are adjusting the system a year after the release ?
I feel they are just updating the matchmaking system because there are less players than a year before.
If they wanted us to play more with people at our level, wouldn't they they give us some kind of filtering tools ?
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hehe it is as it should have been from the beginig now :-), at least Blizzard acted fast this time :-) so i am quite happy!
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This sounds good, I like playing different levels as it lets me know how I'm progressing (kind of treading water right now honestly because of how bad my ZvP is).
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No wonder! Last night I got stomped by someone in Diamond while I'm only in Gold.
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Well, I don't know. I think I'll like it in the long end. It might allow for faster promotions/demotions if you win against much higher opponents than you as well, or lose against much lower opponents...
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It's fucking stupid, to improve your skill in timings or whatever you need to constantly face people with as similiar skill-levels as your own.
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On April 24 2012 22:41 CoR wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 20:43 roym899 wrote:
As a Diamond player I like the changes. It's always nice to gain confidence by getting an easy win over someone who is 1 league under you or getting the chance to learn something new even when you clearly lose against someone a league higher.
btw.: what's your problem guys? You will get better and worse opponents so you won't get demoted or promoted to early because of this system change. It's a chance for you and adds variety into ladderplay. as mid master i wont get demoted or promoted for perhaps ever and ever, way to srong to ever go back in diamond, not playing enough to ever reach gm but the problem i have is not i play gm lose and lose 1 or even 5 points, no the problem are all the diamonds, sure i can win 10 games and get 2-3 points for all the wins and then 1 diamond is able to cheeserush me and i lose 31 points ... oh jaeh 30-1 winratio and I LOSE POINTS thats how we all love it RIGHT ? it just makes me play LESS and thats the worst thing a change could make !!!
Why does it matter how many points you lose? It's the same thing for everyone that's around your rank.
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I hate playing against people that I'm straight favored against, I feel like there's too much pressure. But playing against people that are favored against me is nice, so I guess it's a give and take.
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I dont know where I stand on this.
ALl my even matches are against "low-mid amsters" which is inane, considering I'm only top diamond....All my diamond games I'm "slightly favored", to add on to the pressure of winning when I find I'm more on even terms with them...and its not like theyre bad players either, theyre all mid diamond...Then there's the games where I'm "favored against" and the person is downright on a class of his own against me...
It's silly...
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On April 25 2012 00:54 LighT. wrote:
I dont know where I stand on this.
ALl my even matches are against "low-mid amsters" which is inane, considering I'm only top diamond....All my diamond games I'm "slightly favored", to add on to the pressure of winning when I find I'm more on even terms with them...and its not like theyre bad players either, theyre all mid diamond...Then there's the games where I'm "favored against" and the person is downright on a class of his own against me...
It's silly...
That is the normal mathmaking system, no weird change they made, your are still favored/not favored against people based on your hidden mmr. All that this change means is that your faced more highly favored people, which means more potential for points.
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It's like Blizzard is desperate to show that they do something.
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I get the feeling like a mad scientist is playing with my matches, and I don't like it. I've always liked to look at my opponent's profile, and see what league he's playing against usually. This gives me some determination of the skill level I'm at currently, but now I'll have no clue.
I just read about an old Chinese proverb, which states "muddy waters make the fish easier catch". All this opacity is really making me crave a discrete ladder-point system with a global ladder. No mercy, no handholding. Brains everywhere.
Edit: This is making mirror matchups really fucking annoying. Wish I played Terran now.
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I feel like all these system changes have really screwed with my attempts to get promoted. I'm high plat, bordering on diamond, but when I'm forced to play golds, even after winning against a D, I don't get anywhere and am just wasting my time.
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On April 25 2012 00:35 ZanXala wrote:
It's fucking stupid, to improve your skill in timings or whatever you need to constantly face people with as similiar skill-levels as your own.
I disagree. When I trained tennis I wanted to play against better players to learn from them and push myself to constantly to get better and I find the same thing to be true in sc2. There's nothing that says playing against equally good opponents is the best way to improve your gameplay. It give the closest games but that's a seperate point. I see no harm in a slightly larger spann of opponents.
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On April 25 2012 00:12 Jampackedeon wrote:
This sounds good, I like playing different levels as it lets me know how I'm progressing (kind of treading water right now honestly because of how bad my ZvP is).
My ZvP is also atrocious. I won 80% probably of ZvZ and somewhere around 50% ZvT, but god ZvP is awful. I've switched to the Stephano style which has worked somewhat, but I am still so bad at it T.T
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I hate it so far. The last week or so, I thought I was being considered for promotion to silver, right now I'm in high bronze, and today, I have lost to 6 golds in a row.
All of my friends have all stopped playing in the last month, and while waiting for D3 to come out, have jumped into LOL. Maybe it's time I join them.
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This will make it hard for players like HuK with incredibly high MMR wait even more? Im confused
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For all the people who are b*tching about MM-system...
The ladderpoints are just a bait for the people who wants to show off... "Look at me Im top 8 diamond". (Im not even start talking everything below diamond. Because to showing off below diamond its kinda pathetic)
Win/Loss ratio, its a reasonable but not prefect way to reflect yourself into ranking. But again if you smurf yourself into bronze and then start playing... so....
thats why I think blizzard uses the MMR... the reason why they dont show is... people satisfy themself with "look im top 8 bronze"!
So guys give up with complaining about MM and all those other stuff...
As long you dont encounter GM players... you still suck
Note: Im masters... but I macro/micro/apm like a plat. I do not belong in Masters.
Thank you blizzard for RT(2v2/3v3) with an random idiot who thinks Im a bronze noob against AT-people from Blast, Mouz, Liquid and more...
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You complain that you're playing opponents of much lower skill than you. But shouldn't you auto-win versus them, since you're so much better? If they win - what does that say about you(because they shouldn't ever win, right?)
If you win, well you won't get much points I agree, so it feels like a waste of time. But if you lose(which theoretically shouldn't happen), then you get penalized hard. But that's the design, the punishment for losing against someone 2 leagues lower than you. Think in their shoes...they'd be happy to win against you...get a tremendous boost in points and help them get that much closer to promotion.
If you are consistency getting paired up against way higher opponents, well maybe the system thinks you're due for a promotion? And when you get stomped, the system realizes, whoops I was wrong, you shouldn't be promoted, and you're back to square one.
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I'm mid-bronze and I was getting matched against gold consistently. Was a total slaughter in their favor, but a learning experience nonetheless.
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On April 25 2012 02:37 Daubster wrote:
I'm mid-bronze and I was getting matched against gold consistently. Was a total slaughter in their favor, but a learning experience nonetheless.
Personally I think it is a better way to play and kill your bad habits. I have not been on the ladder in a few weeks, but I am pumped to be pitted against people who are better than me. I won't feel bad when I lose, feel awesome when I win and learn along the way. If people just want to grind out wins, I guess the old system was better. But those looking to improve will like the new system more.
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On April 24 2012 22:14 MorroW wrote:i dont understand the OP very well could some math professor explain to me if i get games faster or slower against more even or less even players assuming im around rank 15~ GM? would be very appreciated thanks
They have altered the matchmaking for players at the top of the ladder so that you are more likely to play against players that are closer to you in skill. Therefore, the system will take longer to find these players since the range of players the system will match you up against is smaller than before.
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Recently I've been getting matches where I am slightly favored against other top 8 diamonds (I'm a top 8 diamond). It's extremely discouraging as a win is only 7-9 points while a loss is 15-18. I need to win 3 games to one to increase my standing in my league and that's an incredibly hard ratio to maintain.
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I am perfectly fine with this change. As a player trying to improve, I obviously like playing players above me in skill since I am more likely to find the holes in my play against a superior opponent. As for playing players beneath me in skill, I either get a free win (not the worst thing in the world), or I lose and get to identify some gaping flaw in my game that players at my skill level normally don't have (which is a good thing).
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I'm glad for the change .....go blizzard go
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Cba playing games where opponent is a free win or way better than me constantly.
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On April 25 2012 03:03 KayoDot wrote:
I am perfectly fine with this change. As a player trying to improve, I obviously like playing players above me in skill since I am more likely to find the holes in my play against a superior opponent. As for playing players beneath me in skill, I either get a free win (not the worst thing in the world), or I lose and get to identify some gaping flaw in my game that players at my skill level normally don't have (which is a good thing).
Came here basically to post this. I am happy with this change for the same reasons. Personally, I think the change will help me psychologically as well. It can be frustrating only getting matched with people at exactly your skill level. It's a nice confidence boost to, on occasion, totally wreck someone. And honestly, I don't mind getting destroyed myself when the other player is clearly better. All in all these changes make me excited to ladder more...once finals are over.
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Looks good to me, I don't mind at least trying it out.
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Yeah, I was getting the same issue. High master here, getting matched vs mid masters and winning 5 points, then matched vs high gm winning 23 points, pretty weird. I liked the old system more, getting matched vs high level players is fun, but at the cost of wasting time on mid masters isn't that fun.
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Lol 90% complaining here is so hilarious. Seriously I haven't even noticed any change yet and you guys just seem to think this does change SOO much. Of course it's stupi for a Top Masters player to get matched with a Low-Mid Masters player but it's still training and well ladder is nothing else then this tbh. So I really don't get the problems some guys have with this.
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Hate this new matching system.
I played 3 games today. First one was from bronze that probably just bought this game (built a robo, twilight and stargate). Second game was versus a ranked 45 silver. He got destroyed by a 4 gate. Lastly, I played a gold random. It seems that he wasn't off racing and I somehow won.
Q__Q Blizzard, I'm in bronze... how did I end up playing gold players and win? Your ranking system is messy and match making is even messier.
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I wonder how much of this thread can be attributed to the placebo effect....
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On April 25 2012 03:57 Adonminus wrote:
Yeah, I was getting the same issue. High master here, getting matched vs mid masters and winning 5 points, then matched vs high gm winning 23 points, pretty weird. I liked the old system more, getting matched vs high level players is fun, but at the cost of wasting time on mid masters isn't that fun.
It is a small price to pay for a better ladder over all. I have hopes that a broader system will help players improve and see the flaw in their play style. It is better to remind people how much better they could be every once and a while, rather then have them grind out games and slowly improve through the slow grind.
Or as Nony would put it: You have to go outside your comfort zone to make any real improvement.
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On April 25 2012 04:18 roym899 wrote:
Lol 90% complaining here is so hilarious. Seriously I haven't even noticed any change yet and you guys just seem to think this does change SOO much.
Maybe you live on another planet. I don't know. Here is a graph of the variance in my opponents MMR this season. Do you notice something happening around match nr 30? (The downward slope is due to my points still converging to my own MMR.)
![[image loading]](http://www.lysator.liu.se/~john/matchmaking.jpg)
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Funny thing is, I didn't notice anything after the first change (when they added this huge variance), but I am noticing some huge things right now, like playing against diamonds (being low plat myself).
But I don't really mind, adds some competition and brings me even more joy, when I can beat such a person
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On April 25 2012 04:39 enemy2010 wrote:Funny thing is, I didn't notice anything after the first change (when they added this huge variance), but I am noticing some huge things right now, like playing against diamonds (being low plat myself). But I don't really mind, adds some competition and brings me even more joy, when I can beat such a person
I like your attitude about this. I'm in the same boat. Even match every game is pretty boring.
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[deleted- already been said]
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On April 25 2012 04:33 Mendelfist wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 04:18 roym899 wrote:
Lol 90% complaining here is so hilarious. Seriously I haven't even noticed any change yet and you guys just seem to think this does change SOO much. Maybe you live on another planet. I don't know. Here is a graph of the variance in my opponents MMR this season. Do you notice something happening around match nr 30? (The downward slope is due to my points still converging to my own MMR.)
... how did you see the MMR of your opponents? That's hidden.
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On April 25 2012 01:23 Vulturev4 wrote:
I hate it so far. The last week or so, I thought I was being considered for promotion to silver, right now I'm in high bronze, and today, I have lost to 6 golds in a row.
All of my friends have all stopped playing in the last month, and while waiting for D3 to come out, have jumped into LOL. Maybe it's time I join them.
so your playing golds? Whats the problem? thought you wanted a promotion? If you start losign to them you will probably get more silvers ?
How do you think you get promoted if not by beating people in higher leagues?
There is a huge overlap in the leagues and its not uncommon to go from bronze to gold or plat.
Edit: in a lot of old games it was common for strong players to regularly play weaker ones to help improve the level of the game.
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Never noticed anything the first time around, will see if I notice anything this time. I think it's great that they went back and modified it so that at the higher levels the system is more tight and at other levels it's more loosely.
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On April 25 2012 04:52 c0ldfusion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 04:33 Mendelfist wrote:On April 25 2012 04:18 roym899 wrote:
Lol 90% complaining here is so hilarious. Seriously I haven't even noticed any change yet and you guys just seem to think this does change SOO much. Maybe you live on another planet. I don't know. Here is a graph of the variance in my opponents MMR this season. Do you notice something happening around match nr 30? (The downward slope is due to my points still converging to my own MMR.) ... how did you see the MMR of your opponents? That's hidden.
I didn't. I can however see the difference between my opponents MMR and my own points. That's how the score after the match is calculated.
I want to point out something else in that graph. After the matchmaking change (about 20 games in the graph) about half of the games were even and in the rest my opponents were favored (I lost 90% of those). I didn't get a single match where I was favored. I wonder what's up with that. The samplesize is rather small, so I will continue to look at it.
Theoretically though, you can't give the top and the bottom of the ladder even matches with low MMR spread, and the middle varied matches with high MMR spread without an inbalance appearing somewhere. I hope that's not what I'm seeing.
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I don't get why they keep fucking with it. It was fine to begin with. I'm a shitty mid plat zerg, and protoss, and a horrible silver Terran.(I have 3 accounts one for each race.) and it was fine.
I guess to make people who get upset when they lose a better chance at winning? or what?
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On April 25 2012 04:52 c0ldfusion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 04:33 Mendelfist wrote:On April 25 2012 04:18 roym899 wrote:
Lol 90% complaining here is so hilarious. Seriously I haven't even noticed any change yet and you guys just seem to think this does change SOO much. Maybe you live on another planet. I don't know. Here is a graph of the variance in my opponents MMR this season. Do you notice something happening around match nr 30? (The downward slope is due to my points still converging to my own MMR.) ... how did you see the MMR of your opponents? That's hidden.
I think he actually means the number of points you get when you win a match. When you're matched vs a player with even MMR, you win or lose 10 points after the match. However when your opponents MMR is higher you win more points, or less points when lower. Like that you can see what's your opponent's MMR relatively to your current MMR. As you can see on the graph, he starts facing people of very different MMRs after the change.
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I don't know about anyone else, but what I find most frustrating about this change is how there have never been any significant complaints about matchmaking from the community. There exists a large array of issues that the community is vocal about and would strongly like to see addressed, yet Blizzard chooses to modify something that just about everybody was totally satisfied with. In my opinion, that is just insulting to the community. Makes it feel like Blizzard is intentionally ignoring our complaints and our feedback.
It seems that these days game developers have forgotten that their role was once the benevolent stewards of the worlds that their users come to live and play in. They seem to now think of themselves as the Gods who sit on their developer thrones and dictate what their users will and will not do with an iron fist.
More on topic: the changes seem to make ladder significantly less fun for the supposed benefit of shorter queues (although my queues have been longer since the change). The changes seem to have an even more significant negative impact on team leagues. Regardless of whether I queue with my high master teams or my lower level friends, the MMR and skill level of our opponents seems completely and totally random. I've crushed bronze level ATs on my top master team, and I've been crushed by master level ATs with my lowbie friends on our gold team. It's completely random and useless.
Thankfully 1v1 seems to be slightly more stable than that, but still irritating to say the least.
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Well the match making changes to me at least relax things a bit.
Think about it, if you start going on tilt there will reach a point where you hit a lower player and your like 'damn, I played well in that game' and your off tilt. So far I've played a few golds (which my matchmaking was giving me before) and then all plats as I'm mid platinum myself. But I've played a different level of plats (the low, the mid and the high) and also means I get a much broader ZvX range, as before was always ZvZ now I'm seeing alot more of the other races!
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Hmm, yeah the more I play this season the more I really dislike the system. Mid-masters and playing diamonds and winning like 3 or 4 points is an absolute waste of my time, especially in zvz where I now just 9 drone scout every time I'm favored because it will almost always be some cheese pool build. I feel like I'm actually getting worse now and half the time I don't even know what to expect when it says slightly favored. Maybe it's better for other races, but as zerg it's so annoying to know some bullshit is coming your way.
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On April 25 2012 04:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 03:57 Adonminus wrote:
Yeah, I was getting the same issue. High master here, getting matched vs mid masters and winning 5 points, then matched vs high gm winning 23 points, pretty weird. I liked the old system more, getting matched vs high level players is fun, but at the cost of wasting time on mid masters isn't that fun. It is a small price to pay for a better ladder over all. I have hopes that a broader system will help players improve and see the flaw in their play style. It is better to remind people how much better they could be every once and a while, rather then have them grind out games and slowly improve through the slow grind. Or as Nony would put it: You have to go outside your comfort zone to make any real improvement.
Blizzard tried to keep you at a 50% win record, so with the old system if you were doing well you were going up against stronger players. I noticed this as a diamond player, If i was playing horrible I would be playing plat or low diamond players, or when i was doing good and on a win streak I would notice my opponents were high diamond low masters. Now its just putting me up against anyone, I dont know if im improving or not since im playing platinum players one game and masters the other. I see flaws in my playstyle against people at my own skill level, I dont need to be playing against people way better to me when I was already losing 50% of the time against people at my own level on the old system.
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I still dont get what they want to achive with this change.
If I want to play against worse opponents I contact specific players from my contact list. If I want to play against stronger opponents I contact other specific players from my contact list. If I want to play even games, where a single mistake makes it hard to come back I went ladder.
Wish they would implement sepperated Race-Ratings instead like so many more players demand than a change of the MMR-System.
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I couldnt care less about what they do to match making lol.
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On April 25 2012 05:47 ishyishy wrote:
I couldnt care less about what they do to match making lol.
Then why did you post here?
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On April 25 2012 05:24 Nereas wrote:
I don't know about anyone else, but what I find most frustrating about this change is how there have never been any significant complaints about matchmaking from the community. There exists a large array of issues that the community is vocal about and would strongly like to see addressed, yet Blizzard chooses to modify something that just about everybody was totally satisfied with. In my opinion, that is just insulting to the community. Makes it feel like Blizzard is intentionally ignoring our complaints and our feedback.
It seems that these days game developers have forgotten that their role was once the benevolent stewards of the worlds that their users come to live and play in. They seem to now think of themselves as the Gods who sit on their developer thrones and dictate what their users will and will not do with an iron fist.
More on topic: the changes seem to make ladder significantly less fun for the supposed benefit of shorter queues (although my queues have been longer since the change). The changes seem to have an even more significant negative impact on team leagues. Regardless of whether I queue with my high master teams or my lower level friends, the MMR and skill level of our opponents seems completely and totally random. I've crushed bronze level ATs on my top master team, and I've been crushed by master level ATs with my lowbie friends on our gold team. It's completely random and useless.
Thankfully 1v1 seems to be slightly more stable than that, but still irritating to say the least.
Community outcry is not the only reason for change. Blizzard might have seen other issues, like players stagnating in their league due to playing a specific way or over all slow progress. Personlly, I would rather play people who are much better than me, as opposed to grind it out and improve super slowly. It is also a good way to kill bad builds, like 3 rax medivac(I know, but its a thing in the super low leagues vs protoss, there is no reason it should work).
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This sucks for me being in masters. I have to play platinums now, but I will never get the opportunity to face a GM cuz of this change. Basically, my matchmatching has only been widened 1 direction.
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This absolutely sucks. I keep getting my ass crushed my Master league players and I just got into Diamond myself. What the hell were they thinking?
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On April 25 2012 04:33 Mendelfist wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 04:18 roym899 wrote:
Lol 90% complaining here is so hilarious. Seriously I haven't even noticed any change yet and you guys just seem to think this does change SOO much. Maybe you live on another planet. I don't know. Here is a graph of the variance in my opponents MMR this season. Do you notice something happening around match nr 30? (The downward slope is due to my points still converging to my own MMR.)
Funny how the ranking of your opponent bothers you. Tbh I don't even look at this at the top of the screen as this doesn't tell you anything. For example you could see your opponent as Favored and he sees you as favored. So your graph doesn't tell you anything at all.
Just play this game and have fun dude. Really some guys just take this really to serious. I can understand if you critisize it if you are Top Masters player and ladder play isn't as efficiant traning anymore but as Blizz said the effect won't take place in the top notch places so it shouldn't bother you too.
At all complaining: Why do you play ladder? To win? Or to get better? Or to have fun? The last two are completely irrelevant from the opponent you get.
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On April 25 2012 06:01 roym899 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 04:33 Mendelfist wrote:On April 25 2012 04:18 roym899 wrote:
Lol 90% complaining here is so hilarious. Seriously I haven't even noticed any change yet and you guys just seem to think this does change SOO much. Maybe you live on another planet. I don't know. Here is a graph of the variance in my opponents MMR this season. Do you notice something happening around match nr 30? (The downward slope is due to my points still converging to my own MMR.) Funny how the ranking of your opponent bothers you. Tbh I don't even look at this at the top of the screen as this doesn't tell you anything. For example you could see your opponent as Favored and he sees you as favored. So your graph doesn't tell you anything at all. Just play this game and have fun dude. Really some guys just take this really to serious. I can understand if you critisize it if you are Top Masters player and ladder play isn't as efficiant traning anymore but as Blizz said the effect won't take place in the top notch places so it shouldn't bother you too.
The point is some people don't have fun stomping or being stomped. It's not about efficient training or not. It's about the fact that almost every game now is completely one sided. It's boring as crap. Yes I get alot more wins than I used to since I all of suddenly play alot of Diamonds/low Masters. Is it fun for me? No. It's a waste of my time.
On April 25 2012 04:18 roym899 wrote:
At all complaining: Why do you play ladder? To win? Or to get better? Or to have fun? The last two are completely irrelevant from the opponent you get.
That's completely untrue. You don't get better playing people much better or much worse than you. And personally stomps aren't fun for me, even though in this new broken AutoMM I'm on the winning side the vast majority of the time.
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On April 25 2012 05:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 05:24 Nereas wrote:
I don't know about anyone else, but what I find most frustrating about this change is how there have never been any significant complaints about matchmaking from the community. There exists a large array of issues that the community is vocal about and would strongly like to see addressed, yet Blizzard chooses to modify something that just about everybody was totally satisfied with. In my opinion, that is just insulting to the community. Makes it feel like Blizzard is intentionally ignoring our complaints and our feedback.
It seems that these days game developers have forgotten that their role was once the benevolent stewards of the worlds that their users come to live and play in. They seem to now think of themselves as the Gods who sit on their developer thrones and dictate what their users will and will not do with an iron fist.
More on topic: the changes seem to make ladder significantly less fun for the supposed benefit of shorter queues (although my queues have been longer since the change). The changes seem to have an even more significant negative impact on team leagues. Regardless of whether I queue with my high master teams or my lower level friends, the MMR and skill level of our opponents seems completely and totally random. I've crushed bronze level ATs on my top master team, and I've been crushed by master level ATs with my lowbie friends on our gold team. It's completely random and useless.
Thankfully 1v1 seems to be slightly more stable than that, but still irritating to say the least. Community outcry is not the only reason for change. Blizzard might have seen other issues, like players stagnating in their league due to playing a specific way or over all slow progress. Personlly, I would rather play people who are much better than me, as opposed to grind it out and improve super slowly. It is also a good way to kill bad builds, like 3 rax medivac(I know, but its a thing in the super low leagues vs protoss, there is no reason it should work).
I don't understand how the changes would fix any of that? How would it suddenly "kill" builds? A lot of things work in low leagues that should never work... that's common to all ladder systems, skill curves.
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does this mean their not changing it again for a while?
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I like the fact that they finally did a pros vs. joes update where both sides got the things they needed
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On April 25 2012 04:33 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 03:57 Adonminus wrote:
Yeah, I was getting the same issue. High master here, getting matched vs mid masters and winning 5 points, then matched vs high gm winning 23 points, pretty weird. I liked the old system more, getting matched vs high level players is fun, but at the cost of wasting time on mid masters isn't that fun. It is a small price to pay for a better ladder over all. I have hopes that a broader system will help players improve and see the flaw in their play style. It is better to remind people how much better they could be every once and a while, rather then have them grind out games and slowly improve through the slow grind. Or as Nony would put it: You have to go outside your comfort zone to make any real improvement.
I agree. I'm just a high diamond player, but last night I got matched against a guy in top 8 master. I lost of course, but I learned a ton about the holes in my play just from a single game. Def. going to be analyzing that replay a lot.
I guess it kinda sucks for the high master player though... but maybe he/she gets a similar experience from playing GMs?
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On April 25 2012 06:01 roym899 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 04:33 Mendelfist wrote:On April 25 2012 04:18 roym899 wrote:
Lol 90% complaining here is so hilarious. Seriously I haven't even noticed any change yet and you guys just seem to think this does change SOO much. Maybe you live on another planet. I don't know. Here is a graph of the variance in my opponents MMR this season. Do you notice something happening around match nr 30? (The downward slope is due to my points still converging to my own MMR.) Funny how the ranking of your opponent bothers you. Tbh I don't even look at this at the top of the screen as this doesn't tell you anything. For example you could see your opponent as Favored and he sees you as favored. So your graph doesn't tell you anything at all. Just play this game and have fun dude. Really some guys just take this really to serious. I can understand if you critisize it if you are Top Masters player and ladder play isn't as efficiant traning anymore but as Blizz said the effect won't take place in the top notch places so it shouldn't bother you too. At all complaining: Why do you play ladder? To win? Or to get better? Or to have fun? The last two are completely irrelevant from the opponent you get.
When I play some low masters kid who does a laughable horrible attempt at some one base all in that I crush terribly tell me exactly what it is about that game that made me a better player? Or even worst when he goes into a macro game I max and rofl stomp him, I just don't see the benefits of this... And as for your other point, there is nothing fun about having completely one sided games, the fun lies within winning a game that was extremely close...
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On April 25 2012 06:07 Hoodlum wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 06:01 roym899 wrote:On April 25 2012 04:33 Mendelfist wrote:On April 25 2012 04:18 roym899 wrote:
Lol 90% complaining here is so hilarious. Seriously I haven't even noticed any change yet and you guys just seem to think this does change SOO much. Maybe you live on another planet. I don't know. Here is a graph of the variance in my opponents MMR this season. Do you notice something happening around match nr 30? (The downward slope is due to my points still converging to my own MMR.) Funny how the ranking of your opponent bothers you. Tbh I don't even look at this at the top of the screen as this doesn't tell you anything. For example you could see your opponent as Favored and he sees you as favored. So your graph doesn't tell you anything at all. Just play this game and have fun dude. Really some guys just take this really to serious. I can understand if you critisize it if you are Top Masters player and ladder play isn't as efficiant traning anymore but as Blizz said the effect won't take place in the top notch places so it shouldn't bother you too. At all complaining: Why do you play ladder? To win? Or to get better? Or to have fun? The last two are completely irrelevant from the opponent you get. When I play some low masters kid who does a laughable horrible attempt at some one base all in that I crush terribly tell me exactly what it is about that game that made me a better player? Or even worst when he goes into a macro game I max and rofl stomp him, I just don't see the benefits of this... And as for your other point, there is nothing fun about having completely one sided games, the fun lies within winning a game that was extremely close... Imho you had such games before too. It would have been really interesting to see if anyone would have complained about this if Blizz hasn't said anything.
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On April 25 2012 06:10 roym899 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 06:07 Hoodlum wrote:On April 25 2012 06:01 roym899 wrote:On April 25 2012 04:33 Mendelfist wrote:On April 25 2012 04:18 roym899 wrote:
Lol 90% complaining here is so hilarious. Seriously I haven't even noticed any change yet and you guys just seem to think this does change SOO much. Maybe you live on another planet. I don't know. Here is a graph of the variance in my opponents MMR this season. Do you notice something happening around match nr 30? (The downward slope is due to my points still converging to my own MMR.) Funny how the ranking of your opponent bothers you. Tbh I don't even look at this at the top of the screen as this doesn't tell you anything. For example you could see your opponent as Favored and he sees you as favored. So your graph doesn't tell you anything at all. Just play this game and have fun dude. Really some guys just take this really to serious. I can understand if you critisize it if you are Top Masters player and ladder play isn't as efficiant traning anymore but as Blizz said the effect won't take place in the top notch places so it shouldn't bother you too. At all complaining: Why do you play ladder? To win? Or to get better? Or to have fun? The last two are completely irrelevant from the opponent you get. When I play some low masters kid who does a laughable horrible attempt at some one base all in that I crush terribly tell me exactly what it is about that game that made me a better player? Or even worst when he goes into a macro game I max and rofl stomp him, I just don't see the benefits of this... And as for your other point, there is nothing fun about having completely one sided games, the fun lies within winning a game that was extremely close... Imho you had such games before too. It would have been really interesting to see if anyone would have complained about this if Blizz hasn't said anything.
Anyone in mid-high Masters would definitely have noticed and said something about the change if Blizzard hadn't said anything. It was noticeable even when Blizzard claimed to have 'reverted' the changes. It's a waste of time for us unless you like free wins.
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On April 25 2012 06:13 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 06:10 roym899 wrote:On April 25 2012 06:07 Hoodlum wrote:On April 25 2012 06:01 roym899 wrote:On April 25 2012 04:33 Mendelfist wrote:On April 25 2012 04:18 roym899 wrote:
Lol 90% complaining here is so hilarious. Seriously I haven't even noticed any change yet and you guys just seem to think this does change SOO much. Maybe you live on another planet. I don't know. Here is a graph of the variance in my opponents MMR this season. Do you notice something happening around match nr 30? (The downward slope is due to my points still converging to my own MMR.) Funny how the ranking of your opponent bothers you. Tbh I don't even look at this at the top of the screen as this doesn't tell you anything. For example you could see your opponent as Favored and he sees you as favored. So your graph doesn't tell you anything at all. Just play this game and have fun dude. Really some guys just take this really to serious. I can understand if you critisize it if you are Top Masters player and ladder play isn't as efficiant traning anymore but as Blizz said the effect won't take place in the top notch places so it shouldn't bother you too. At all complaining: Why do you play ladder? To win? Or to get better? Or to have fun? The last two are completely irrelevant from the opponent you get. When I play some low masters kid who does a laughable horrible attempt at some one base all in that I crush terribly tell me exactly what it is about that game that made me a better player? Or even worst when he goes into a macro game I max and rofl stomp him, I just don't see the benefits of this... And as for your other point, there is nothing fun about having completely one sided games, the fun lies within winning a game that was extremely close... Imho you had such games before too. It would have been really interesting to see if anyone would have complained about this if Blizz hasn't said anything. Anyone in mid-high Masters would definitely have noticed and said something about the change if Blizzard hadn't said anything. It was noticeable even when Blizzard claimed to have 'reverted' the changes. It's a waste of time for us unless you like free wins. But it's a very nice addition when you get stomped by a better player as you can learn so much from this. And, well, this isn't possible if those wouldn't play you.
Edit: Probably an option to activate or deactivate this would be nice.
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On April 25 2012 06:07 Hoodlum wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 06:01 roym899 wrote:On April 25 2012 04:33 Mendelfist wrote:On April 25 2012 04:18 roym899 wrote:
Lol 90% complaining here is so hilarious. Seriously I haven't even noticed any change yet and you guys just seem to think this does change SOO much. Maybe you live on another planet. I don't know. Here is a graph of the variance in my opponents MMR this season. Do you notice something happening around match nr 30? (The downward slope is due to my points still converging to my own MMR.) Funny how the ranking of your opponent bothers you. Tbh I don't even look at this at the top of the screen as this doesn't tell you anything. For example you could see your opponent as Favored and he sees you as favored. So your graph doesn't tell you anything at all. Just play this game and have fun dude. Really some guys just take this really to serious. I can understand if you critisize it if you are Top Masters player and ladder play isn't as efficiant traning anymore but as Blizz said the effect won't take place in the top notch places so it shouldn't bother you too. At all complaining: Why do you play ladder? To win? Or to get better? Or to have fun? The last two are completely irrelevant from the opponent you get. When I play some low masters kid who does a laughable horrible attempt at some one base all in that I crush terribly tell me exactly what it is about that game that made me a better player? Or even worst when he goes into a macro game I max and rofl stomp him, I just don't see the benefits of this... And as for your other point, there is nothing fun about having completely one sided games, the fun lies within winning a game that was extremely close...
But you'll also face better opponents yourself. Are you arguing you can't learn anything playing tougher opponents? It's not a one way street.
They also wrote:
Matchmaking will not be more relaxed at the highest skill levels.
So once you get good enough your scenario would not happen.
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On April 24 2012 23:03 Alryk wrote:
The thing you should remember is for every game you lose to a lower ranked player, you should be able to nab one off a higher ranked every now and then. Don't just look at the lower end of the spectrum haha.
As a masters player it sounds interesting. Can't wait to try it tonight.
Stop making sense, its upsetting me.
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On April 25 2012 06:10 roym899 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 06:07 Hoodlum wrote:On April 25 2012 06:01 roym899 wrote:On April 25 2012 04:33 Mendelfist wrote:On April 25 2012 04:18 roym899 wrote:
Lol 90% complaining here is so hilarious. Seriously I haven't even noticed any change yet and you guys just seem to think this does change SOO much. Maybe you live on another planet. I don't know. Here is a graph of the variance in my opponents MMR this season. Do you notice something happening around match nr 30? (The downward slope is due to my points still converging to my own MMR.) Funny how the ranking of your opponent bothers you. Tbh I don't even look at this at the top of the screen as this doesn't tell you anything. For example you could see your opponent as Favored and he sees you as favored. So your graph doesn't tell you anything at all. Just play this game and have fun dude. Really some guys just take this really to serious. I can understand if you critisize it if you are Top Masters player and ladder play isn't as efficiant traning anymore but as Blizz said the effect won't take place in the top notch places so it shouldn't bother you too. At all complaining: Why do you play ladder? To win? Or to get better? Or to have fun? The last two are completely irrelevant from the opponent you get. When I play some low masters kid who does a laughable horrible attempt at some one base all in that I crush terribly tell me exactly what it is about that game that made me a better player? Or even worst when he goes into a macro game I max and rofl stomp him, I just don't see the benefits of this... And as for your other point, there is nothing fun about having completely one sided games, the fun lies within winning a game that was extremely close... Imho you had such games before too. It would have been really interesting to see if anyone would have complained about this if Blizz hasn't said anything.
I'm sure people would have noticed... high masters playing, low masters and diamonds, etc. It's pretty noticeable. Also, lol at the people who think this is going to help them improve faster. Practicing against people significantly better than you is just as worthless as playing people much worse than you. It's not a good gauge of anything.
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I'm mid-high masters and I love the new changes. I like being challenged by high masters players and the occasional pro level guy (and I sometimes win! but not often). It just makes me a better player to see how corners I cut vs. mid-masters players will lose me games at the higher levels. I also really love the challenge and the excitement of beating someone that good.
I play the high diamond guys from time to time too... that's ok. Gives me a relatively stress free game to work on my mechanics and builds but in a ladder setting (diff from playing a custom with friends).
A+ blizz.
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On April 25 2012 06:19 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 06:10 roym899 wrote:On April 25 2012 06:07 Hoodlum wrote:On April 25 2012 06:01 roym899 wrote:On April 25 2012 04:33 Mendelfist wrote:On April 25 2012 04:18 roym899 wrote:
Lol 90% complaining here is so hilarious. Seriously I haven't even noticed any change yet and you guys just seem to think this does change SOO much. Maybe you live on another planet. I don't know. Here is a graph of the variance in my opponents MMR this season. Do you notice something happening around match nr 30? (The downward slope is due to my points still converging to my own MMR.) Funny how the ranking of your opponent bothers you. Tbh I don't even look at this at the top of the screen as this doesn't tell you anything. For example you could see your opponent as Favored and he sees you as favored. So your graph doesn't tell you anything at all. Just play this game and have fun dude. Really some guys just take this really to serious. I can understand if you critisize it if you are Top Masters player and ladder play isn't as efficiant traning anymore but as Blizz said the effect won't take place in the top notch places so it shouldn't bother you too. At all complaining: Why do you play ladder? To win? Or to get better? Or to have fun? The last two are completely irrelevant from the opponent you get. When I play some low masters kid who does a laughable horrible attempt at some one base all in that I crush terribly tell me exactly what it is about that game that made me a better player? Or even worst when he goes into a macro game I max and rofl stomp him, I just don't see the benefits of this... And as for your other point, there is nothing fun about having completely one sided games, the fun lies within winning a game that was extremely close... Imho you had such games before too. It would have been really interesting to see if anyone would have complained about this if Blizz hasn't said anything. I'm sure people would have noticed... high masters playing, low masters and diamonds, etc. It's pretty noticeable. Also, lol at the people who think this is going to help them improve faster. Practicing against people significantly better than you is just as worthless as playing people much worse than you. It's not a good gauge of anything. Then you probably don't know how to learn from losses but rage when you lose instead of analyzing the differencies in decision making and playstyle between you and your opponent.
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On April 25 2012 06:25 roym899 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 06:19 SupLilSon wrote:On April 25 2012 06:10 roym899 wrote:On April 25 2012 06:07 Hoodlum wrote:On April 25 2012 06:01 roym899 wrote:On April 25 2012 04:33 Mendelfist wrote:On April 25 2012 04:18 roym899 wrote:
Lol 90% complaining here is so hilarious. Seriously I haven't even noticed any change yet and you guys just seem to think this does change SOO much. Maybe you live on another planet. I don't know. Here is a graph of the variance in my opponents MMR this season. Do you notice something happening around match nr 30? (The downward slope is due to my points still converging to my own MMR.) Funny how the ranking of your opponent bothers you. Tbh I don't even look at this at the top of the screen as this doesn't tell you anything. For example you could see your opponent as Favored and he sees you as favored. So your graph doesn't tell you anything at all. Just play this game and have fun dude. Really some guys just take this really to serious. I can understand if you critisize it if you are Top Masters player and ladder play isn't as efficiant traning anymore but as Blizz said the effect won't take place in the top notch places so it shouldn't bother you too. At all complaining: Why do you play ladder? To win? Or to get better? Or to have fun? The last two are completely irrelevant from the opponent you get. When I play some low masters kid who does a laughable horrible attempt at some one base all in that I crush terribly tell me exactly what it is about that game that made me a better player? Or even worst when he goes into a macro game I max and rofl stomp him, I just don't see the benefits of this... And as for your other point, there is nothing fun about having completely one sided games, the fun lies within winning a game that was extremely close... Imho you had such games before too. It would have been really interesting to see if anyone would have complained about this if Blizz hasn't said anything. I'm sure people would have noticed... high masters playing, low masters and diamonds, etc. It's pretty noticeable. Also, lol at the people who think this is going to help them improve faster. Practicing against people significantly better than you is just as worthless as playing people much worse than you. It's not a good gauge of anything. Then you probably don't know how to learn from losses but rage when you lose instead of analyzing the differencies in decision making and playstyle between you and your opponent.
Ok buddy, jumping right to those conclusions. Obviously I'm some rage filled internet warrior. If you want to watch good players, this website has a pretty comprehensive list of all pro SC2 players streaming first person. It's pretty easy to get a sense of their decision making and play styles. Playing against a better opponent might be fun once in a while just to get a benchmark of sorts but it's not helpful for either player. If you've ever played a competitive sport you'd realize this. You need to practice with people around your skill level and gradually increase difficulty as you increase in skill, not sporadically playing people of varying degrees of skill.
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Blizzard said they were doing this matchmaking change because they thought it would be "fun" to face people who are better or worse than yourself. If people find it "fun" then give them an option to choose whether to have mismatched games on or not. I would certainly rather not have them on. I'm in top gold, and was facing mainly low platinums. Suddenly I'm facing diamonds as well as low golds. Now people might say that you will learn from facing better people but I disagree, you only learn sometimes.
For example I play protoss and the mid/low platinum terrans I was getting matched against normally are starting to do quite a few more 1/1/1 and all in builds that gold terans dont do. I have trouble against them but I accept that i need to learn and I was slowly learning from them. The thing is they dont execute these builds so well but I havent faced them much so I was slowly learning them - but still losing most of them. Then suddenly I face diamond terrans who pull the builds of so much better that I feel as though its pointless even trying. I can't learn much at all from a game like that because there are all sorts of issues, micro issues, build issues, reaction problems, etc etc. All of these build up a huge amount more when I'm faced against much better players. I don't learn anything from it and it isn't "fun" at all. Losing isn't fun, I accept I am going to lose sometimes and that's fine, but losing in games where it feels like I don't have a chance at all is far from fun and far from an acceptable loss, it just feels like a waste of my time and probably a waste of the favoured players time who gets very few points and also learns nothing.
Also, it's not like I play perfectly every game, although I do win most games when I'm favoured, I do lose a few as well and that is irritating - not fun, just irritating. As I say, people who find it fun could just switch the option to be mismatched on and people who don't like it (which I honestly think would be the majority of ladder players) can switch it off and learn the get better at a steady manageable pace.
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Blizzard's reasoning isn't sound if this change was actually made to increase their bastardized understanding of "fun". If lower leagues wanted to play higher leagues, there's this little map called "1v1 Obs", along with a dozen others where they can do just that. Instead, and by some very poor use of reasoning, they decided to change the ladder--the center stage for which the game revolves around in balanced matches--so radically (playing people in ± 2 leagues is radical, don't kid yourself) that it defeats the purpose of having a ladder in the first place; fine tuned skill assessment and placement.
They would be crazy to keep such a thing implemented.
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This makes me very sad. What makes me even more sad, is that apparently this has backing from a large segment of the community, which means it's unlikely this will ever go away.
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As a low bronze player, with 20 or so wins to my name in about 100 games over several seasons I'm being matched against high silver, and low gold players. Players with hundreds of wins during this season. I don't play enough to have much of a gripe, but it takes a lot of the fun out of the game when an inexperienced player like me is matched against players clearly above my skill, and experience level. I have seen 3 bronze players in my 15 or so games on ladder this season, and none of them were ranked below the top 20. And I'm rank 44. Previous seasons the highest ranked players I saw was mid silver, and I finished in the top 20 of my bronze ladder. As it stands now I have won 2 games this season, against a high bronze and low silver players. One of which worker rushed me after I had build my frontal wall. It's not fun to play a game when I have little to no chance to win on the ladder. I mostly play SC2 for the custom games now, which makes me sad to be honest. Just my 2 copper.
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This is awesome. I've been grinding on KR trying to relearn the game, the real way. To stop my cheesy aggression builds that let me win just by over powering the micro and multitasking of my enemy. Nothing is better than facing a mid+ masters on KR, that just SMOKES my fucking face off.
This is actually a fun little change, it's making the range of people from a good diamond to 400 apm monsters.
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This sucks, i play vs gm players and diamond now rofl, dia are walkovers.... 3 emp's vs the last guy had 20 infestors out of energy
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I'm in Bronze so this has no effect on me. Though I did play a diamond today that was tanking his MMR. Almost won too xD
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The range is too wide!
Please blizz stop tinkering with one of the only things Bnet 2.0 did well...
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So... I play a high diamond and lose to an all in... I then play a mid gold and roll him... this is too random... I keep playing diamond to gold, diamond to gold, diamond to gold, regardless of whether I beat the diamond or not. How am I supposed to improve like this?
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The one thing battle.net got right was the matchmaking system, and now they've even fucked that up. Though I've noticed in mid masters that it's gotten better than it was a few days ago.
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Ugh not fun being High diamond and then having to play plats. I don't think blizzard understands the skill differences between leagues and even within own leagues. I am now randomly getting plats that I steamroll and it just feels so counter intuitive to trying to get better. Now I am getting practice from being that are a much lower skill level than I am. Not fun
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changes or no changes i win ne ways eeeeeezzzzz
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On April 25 2012 09:05 Bloody101 wrote:Ugh not fun being High diamond and then having to play plats. I don't think blizzard understands the skill differences between leagues and even within own leagues. I am now randomly getting plats that I steamroll and it just feels so counter intuitive to trying to get better. Now I am getting practice from being that are a much lower skill level than I am. Not fun
So you getting paired up against better players as well is irrelevant?
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i was playin on my other account which is silver, and im playin vs top 8 diamond :S
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Wow.
Based on a lot of the comments (and my own experience), I feel the bounds for matchmaking have been set a bit too wide now.
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On April 25 2012 11:00 whatthefat wrote:Wow. Based on a lot of the comments (and my own experience), I feel the bounds for matchmaking have been set a bit too wide now.
I agree.
This (in the above screen shot) has happened to me a few times. Do not want it to ever happen. Honestly the match-making system was completely fine for me personally before, all matches felt like my appropiate skill level. Now it's huge swings in both directions.
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my match-ups haven't had a drastic skill difference yet, either high diamond or masters..odd
edit: shortly after, got promoted to masters
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I am in Platinum and I was matched up against silvers and diamonds. I enjoyed playing them all!
I can obviously see I am being outplayed vs diamonds and outplaying silvers but this just show myself where my gameplay is currently at and I do like to see how I do against different tier opponents.
At least now with the new matchmaking system I have no worries of going on another 8 lose streak. Absolutely loving the new matchmaking!
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Been occasionally playing Diamonds (which I like), but also been playing Silvers as a Platnium player.
Weren't they reverting back to the old methods?
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I guess this has taught me how small the difference is between high platinum and mid-masters. 
Been playing top 8 plat and rank 30~ masters (this season and last) and they really seem about the same. =/
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dont like it..sure i get a streak at times but the system eventually realizes that and i get paired up with top 8 players that are a higher rank than me
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On April 25 2012 11:04 Talack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 11:00 whatthefat wrote:Wow. Based on a lot of the comments (and my own experience), I feel the bounds for matchmaking have been set a bit too wide now. I agree. This (in the above screen shot) has happened to me a few times. Do not want it to ever happen. Honestly the match-making system was completely fine for me personally before, all matches felt like my appropiate skill level. Now it's huge swings in both directions.
I dunno. I think there's a pretty big overlap in skill between leagues. That top 8 plat was probably better than mid-diamond players.
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I really really enjoy it.
If you play someone lower, you get repetition and an exercise of mechanics, and if you play someone higher, it's a challenge to your build efficiency, execution, and decision making.
I played 2 GM's on kr today, felt supremely outclassed, and I'm not sure I've ever learned so much from a replay.
Embrace the change, exploit and use the positives.
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Thank you Blizzard ! *starting ladder*
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At first I was for this, but after playing with it a while I'm not a fan. The people I've been matched against have generally been so far above or below my level that it's just not fun, and I don't feel like I'm learning a lot.
Maybe I need to ind a new way of approaching ladder now.
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On April 25 2012 06:01 roym899 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 04:33 Mendelfist wrote:On April 25 2012 04:18 roym899 wrote:
Lol 90% complaining here is so hilarious. Seriously I haven't even noticed any change yet and you guys just seem to think this does change SOO much. Maybe you live on another planet. I don't know. Here is a graph of the variance in my opponents MMR this season. Do you notice something happening around match nr 30? (The downward slope is due to my points still converging to my own MMR.) Funny how the ranking of your opponent bothers you. Tbh I don't even look at this at the top of the screen as this doesn't tell you anything. For example you could see your opponent as Favored and he sees you as favored. So your graph doesn't tell you anything at all. Just play this game and have fun dude. Really some guys just take this really to serious. I can understand if you critisize it if you are Top Masters player and ladder play isn't as efficiant traning anymore but as Blizz said the effect won't take place in the top notch places so it shouldn't bother you too. At all complaining: Why do you play ladder? To win? Or to get better? Or to have fun? The last two are completely irrelevant from the opponent you get.
You are wrong. The data for this graph is calculated after every match, and it does tells you exactly what I said it does, the variance in my opponents MMR. Read up on how he ladder works if you didn't understand it. And don't tell me what should bother me and what shouldn't.
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One thing I've learned is that diamond is a lot cheesier than I remembered.
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On April 25 2012 14:49 IMoperator wrote:
One thing I've learned is that diamond is a lot cheesier than I remembered.
Thank god I wasn't the only one haha.
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The way I see it is Blizzard made this change to try and satisfy the illusion people seem to have of playing better then someone else, yet still lose. Now there won't be no mistake, either you will win because you are much better, or you will lose because you are much worse.
Maybe they also see it as less stress. It might be less stressfull losing to someone who you know is much better then you. Unfortunatley it is not as fun for the winner.
And please stop with the "I learned so much from playing that 1 higher league guy" It's bullshit, you could learn just as much from an evenly matched opponent. There are literally thousands of replays that anyone could go and find to learn from.
Anyone that thinks they are going to learn anything from getting raped from someone 2 leagues above them are completely wrong. The reason why you lost to the Diamond player is the same reason you are losing against someone in your own league.
Not a good change IMO, it's not fun, knowing I am going to get stomped 5 minutes into a match, or knowing that I will be doing the stomping 5 minutes in is not a good time.
Don't fix it if it ain't broke, focus your energy where it s needed Blizzard, there are so many more problems that need to be addressed.
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Haven't really felt anything changed for me
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I am plat and I have been playing mid gold players. I do not mind but they might because they aren't ready for it. Its like when I get put against diamond and they rock me lol
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Cant actually believe ppl enjoy getting much worse or much better opponents instead of the same skillwise. Terrible change.
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These changes suck. I'm in diamond and havn't had a 'even' match in ages. Yesterday I played a zerg in a zvz who went 14p 3x spines evo 2xspore into expand. Granted I had fun playing about with him, but it sucks and you dont learn jack all.
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have a feeling this will not be the last time they fix the match making...
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I think its great.
For me as a diamond (EU) player its nice to have the different play styles of diamond and master. And to be honest, I have the same win rate against master as against diamond. I even won against TOP8 master and right after that i lost to a platinum player.
This is good news: More variety and while being stumped or stumping myself at all.
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time to cg and stop laddering....
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there should be make a fun picture like
HAVING THE BEST AUTOMATCHMAKING SYSTEM IN HISTORY
Change it so you get enemys not on your level
blizzard and sc2 could be so proud that their system always gets you enemy EXACTLY on your level so you have 50% and every game is 40 minute superfun and now they make it like all the other "bad" system works and call it evolution ?
i dont get it
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I like that change i hope Blizzard will keep it up for the upcoming seasons and dont change it back...
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If I would like to play "relax" games I would just play on custom games with higher or lower skill player then me.
That's why there are custom games.
The new ladder system is realy realy bad... all the games are "Favored" or "slightly favored", which makes me want to stop laddering.
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On April 25 2012 18:36 syriuszonito wrote:
Cant actually believe ppl enjoy getting much worse or much better opponents instead of the same skillwise. Terrible change.
You have to understand that alot of free wins come out of this system for players that are matched up against those much worse then them. I don't like the system either but I get why some people do. A free win is a free win.
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On April 25 2012 19:58 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 18:36 syriuszonito wrote:
Cant actually believe ppl enjoy getting much worse or much better opponents instead of the same skillwise. Terrible change. You have to understand that alot of free wins come out of this system for players that are matched up against those much worse then them. I don't like the system either but I get why some people do. A free win is a free win.
Blizzard catering to casuals; News at 10.
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Canada430 Posts
One of the reasons I enjoy it is it gives me more motivation to practice. By playing people much higher or lower than you it gives you more chance to prove yourself and move up. While I haven't yet, it has pushed me closer to spending an entire day playing against AI with 3 builds till I have them down perfectly (probably day9 style, doing so while moving a probe around the center the entire game). Then maybe I'll move up from #1 in plat into diamond -_-
My only gripe is that they don't tell us our actual mmr...
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Disregarding the fact that you can't even gauge your progress now, i used to like the fact that every ladder game was competitive and could go either way.. it was just so fun to face equally skilled opponents and go toe to toe against them on a regular basis.
not sure how much time i'm gonna spend laddering after this change, can't see the point as getting practice partners is now by far better not only for practice but for closer, and thus more fun games as well!
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
To be fair, protech is now a top8 masters player so..
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On April 25 2012 20:59 Plexa wrote:To be fair, protech is now a top8 masters player so..
which is like 10time more skilled than any high diamond...
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:/
I really did not like the variability of playing my games. Even matches were a friggin' godsend. I don't mind waitign slightly longer
Low Masters here (I think? I dunno. I've been playing diamonds and top 10 masters everywhere lolol)
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Well, i played 10-15 games today and i have to say this not a very good thing (at least for me). I'm a mid-high ranked (ladderwise) silver player trying to random into gold. So i face the usual mid high gold and silver players which gives me a +/- 60%-70% winrate. Today i faced like 5+ Plat players which of course kicked my ass. The last one was a top 8 ranked plat player. I mean wtf am i supposed to do? I can beat high gold players >50% of the time and my silver leaguers as well but there is this skill gap which makes it nearly impossible for me to win these games.
After my games today i had a winrate of 40% and i'm quite unhappy with this change. I suppose it's not that big of an issue for the like plat+ players because they have a chance to win against a masters player. But i personaly think that there is no way a semi good silver player or mid-low gold player can beat a top 8 ranked plat or diamond player. If they manage to beat them (in like one of 10-20 games) the other player messed up terribly and nothing is won experiencewise for the lower players. In my opinion nobody is able to learn anyting from these games and it makes it way harder to get into a higher league.
Overall it makes the game on my lvl just quite frustrating *sigh*
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On April 25 2012 20:59 Plexa wrote:To be fair, protech is now a top8 masters player so..
different protech. This guy just cannon rushed and called me a faggot. I don't think it's the same one.
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On April 24 2012 11:14 CajunMan wrote:
So what is the Highest and Lowest? I am top 8 masters in my division and still getting diamonds yay I am favored they cheese me and I love 30 points to some scrub love this game. <-- is raging really hard right now.
So GM's and Bronzers only play even games and for the rest its pretty much mixed up or how can i understand this?
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I didn't really get to play this season until today and I have to say this is god awful. If it would be only a few ranks I'd be fine with it. Like lets say you are high in your league and you get an occasional mid guy. But as it is it is totally terrible. I wish they would just make this shit optional. Like a lot of games have similiar feature where it allows you to only matchup against people that are very close/not close to your skill or only people from your region for people with a shitty connection etc. pp.
Instead they force it upon us and ruin the only thing that was actually good about battle.net 02. : it (was) really good at matching you against people that are exactly as good as you are.
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I'm high silver. Just got matched against a plat, who was "favored" and slaughtered me fairly easily. Then a bronze, against whom I was "slightly favored" who I slaughtered fairly easily.
I don't mind golds... but plats seems a bit excessive for my (low) skill level...
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 25 2012 22:36 Odal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 20:59 Plexa wrote:To be fair, protech is now a top8 masters player so.. different protech. This guy just cannon rushed and called me a faggot. I don't think it's the same one.
Yes, but check the profile you linked
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I didnt realize how much I liked always having even matchups until the last couple days... this system sucks. I HATE playing people far below my skill level and I nearly hate playing pros just as much. Sure I probably had some complaints about the previous matchmaking system but I will gladly take it back after having this new one for a few days...
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The amount of whining in this thread is ridiculous. People are over-reacting, using 4 game sample sizes, and blaming the slightest change for their match results.
People moaned about match-making before this was in place, moaned at the change, and are now moaning at this improvement attempt.
Maybe give it a couple of weeks, get a decent sample size and report back on your experiences then? Could that be more productive?
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On April 25 2012 23:30 CaptainCrush wrote:
I didnt realize how much I liked always having even matchups until the last couple days... this system sucks. I HATE playing people far below my skill level and I nearly hate playing pros just as much. Sure I probably had some complaints about the previous matchmaking system but I will gladly take it back after having this new one for a few days...
Haha, I get it Blizzard! You're sick of hearing us complain about battle.net 0.2, so you're trying to make us grateful for what we had by letting us have a taste of a terrible matchmaking system!
Problem is... I think we're just going to complain about both now! :p
Please revert changes T_T AND please give us LAN (g-_-)-o and then we'll <3 u!
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Blizzard said they were doing this matchmaking change because they thought it would be "fun" to face people who are better or worse than yourself. If people find it "fun" then give them an option to choose whether to have mismatched games on or not. I would certainly rather not have them on. I'm in top gold, and was facing mainly low platinums. Suddenly I'm facing diamonds as well as low golds. Now people might say that you will learn from facing better people but I disagree, you only learn sometimes.
For example I play protoss and the mid/low platinum terrans I was getting matched against normally are starting to do quite a few more 1/1/1 and all in builds that gold terans dont do. I have trouble against them but I accept that i need to learn and I was slowly learning from them. The thing is they dont execute these builds so well but I havent faced them much so I was slowly learning them - but still losing most of them. Then suddenly I face diamond terrans who pull the builds of so much better that I feel as though its pointless even trying. I can't learn much at all from a game like that because there are all sorts of issues, micro issues, build issues, reaction problems, etc etc. All of these build up a huge amount more when I'm faced against much better players. I don't learn anything from it and it isn't "fun" at all. Losing isn't fun, I accept I am going to lose sometimes and that's fine, but losing in games where it feels like I don't have a chance at all is far from fun and far from an acceptable loss, it just feels like a waste of my time and probably a waste of the favoured players time who gets very few points and also learns nothing.
Also, it's not like I play perfectly every game, although I do win most games when I'm favoured, I do lose a few as well and that is irritating - not fun, just irritating. As I say, people who find it fun could just switch the option to be mismatched on and people who don't like it (which I honestly think would be the majority of ladder players) can switch it off and learn the get better at a steady manageable pace.
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On April 25 2012 23:36 RoyW wrote:
The amount of whining in this thread is ridiculous. People are over-reacting, using 4 game sample sizes, and blaming the slightest change for their match results.
People moaned about match-making before this was in place, moaned at the change, and are now moaning at this improvement attempt.
Maybe give it a couple of weeks, get a decent sample size and report back on your experiences then? Could that be more productive?
No they aren't. The 4 game samples are just examples. The matchmaking has been completely stupid since the very start of the season even during their 'reverted' period. Many of us have extremely stable MMR and it's very obvious what the changes have done to our matches.
And almost no one complained about matchmaking before. People complained about pretty much everything in B.NET 2.0 (much of it unwarranted IMO), but not matchmaking.
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Wow, seems a good season for interesting changes, I hope they finally do something about the GUI design
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That's pretty cool, the thing I miss about starting out is having some games that can be taken kind of easily. Being in Masters, trying to get better, and having every game be extremely high stakes is kind of stressful.
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On April 26 2012 01:04 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 23:36 RoyW wrote:
The amount of whining in this thread is ridiculous. People are over-reacting, using 4 game sample sizes, and blaming the slightest change for their match results.
People moaned about match-making before this was in place, moaned at the change, and are now moaning at this improvement attempt.
Maybe give it a couple of weeks, get a decent sample size and report back on your experiences then? Could that be more productive? No they aren't. The 4 game samples are just examples. The matchmaking has been completely stupid since the very start of the season even during their 'reverted' period. Many of us have extremely stable MMR and it's very obvious what the changes have done to our matches. And almost no one complained about matchmaking before. People complained about pretty much everything in B.NET 2.0 (much of it unwarranted IMO), but not matchmaking.
I fully agree, I dont need to play 50 or even 100 games before I can realize that this new system sucks... I am a borderline gold/ plat player and I got paired up against a diamond yesterday.
Well, I got stomped and lost 2 points... he gained one single whopping ladder point. Where's the sense in that? Thanks Blizz...
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On April 24 2012 10:40 felisconcolori wrote:
I dunno. I've been playing bronze, bronze, silver, gold, repeat the past two days.
I'm not quite sure what exactly is going on with the matchmaking system, but I would like to get off this rollercoaster =)
(I'm Silver.)
Ranking from bronze to platinum is really not very suggestive of skill, well bronze to gold anyway... A high bronze can easily be skill wise equal to a low gold. The difference isn't comparable to plat > diamond or diamond > masters skill gaps. so that isn't very strange at all
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I laddered for about 5 hours yesterday (trying to get into GM maybe next season) and I played 7 low diamond players in a row, as a high masters player. It was not fun for me or for them.
It seems to me that this "looser" matchmaking criteria has affected me much more in the second iteration than the first. Before I was kind of jumping around playing different caliber masters players, but the matches seemed a lot closer.
I suppose it's because I haven't played a lot of games this season so there could be an argument about the system not being completely sure about my MMR so it's placing me with even higher variety than it normally would.... But it just feels wrong atm.
It's not like I'm going to quit ladder, so whatever.... Having a high winrate is fun!!!
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Hopefully its better than last time. I'm all for facing higher levels as long as I get to pwn some lower ones and feel good about myself LOL
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That's sad for me that they reverted the changes.
I would like that the matchmaking always find me same players than me (I am gold, i want to play against gold only.)
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this system annoys me mainly because of being matched with bad players. sure its a easy win, but most of the time u are trying to figure out wtf they are doing. u see a toss player 1 base for 7+ mins and in ur head u are thinking he is going DTs or some other 1 base all in shit, but instead he does jack shit on 1 base and then he just expands at 8 mins..... so it turned out he was just terribad. honestly a huge waste of time.
or u get 6 pooled/1 base SCV all inned. quite annoying to deal with easy win or not. why waste my time on people like this? its utter retardation. the points u get for the win is so insignificant anyway because he was so damn bad... and in the off chance that u lose to such stupidness then its not like u can learn anything from reviewing the replay -_-
On April 25 2012 21:05 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 20:59 Plexa wrote:To be fair, protech is now a top8 masters player so.. which is like 10time more skilled than any high diamond...
the skill ceiling between high diamond and high masters actually isnt that huge, it just depends largely on the skill of the individual player, not the league. high diamond and masters are close enough tbh. infact if im not mistaken, the main difference between diamond players and master players is the amount of game hours? like u have to play for a certain amount of time to get into masters where as diamond has no such limit. i could be wrong on that, but im pretty sure that is the case.
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Balllistixz, it is obvious you do not know what you are talking about,
The difference is skill even between say a 1000pt master and a 100pt master is much larger than the difference between bronze and diamond.
The bronze player is actually closer in skill level to the high diamond player, than the high diamond player is to a high master. lol
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On April 26 2012 03:53 Ballistixz wrote:
the skill ceiling between high diamond and high masters actually isnt that huge, it just depends largely on the skill of the individual player, not the league. high diamond and masters are close enough tbh. infact if im not mistaken, the main difference between diamond players and master players is the amount of game hours? like u have to play for a certain amount of time to get into masters where as diamond has no such limit. i could be wrong on that, but im pretty sure that is the case.
Yeah, it's actually huge.... There's no arbitrary cap on game time played to be put in master league, in fact you can be placed directly into master right from placement matches, the only league you cannot go RIGHT into is grandmaster.
At higher levels the skill gap is exponentially increasing, like the difference between a 80 rank 100 pt masters player and a top 5 800+ point masters player is gigantic, I'd say even larger than the entire skill difference from bronze to plat maybe even diamond. And when you get up to that level, the skill difference between that top masters player and a top GM is even larger.
People actually underestimate just how much better top pros are than top masters players.... Like if I played 100 games against Idra I would lose literally 100% of them unless I got lucky in a coinflip or something to win 1 game out of 100. And the skill gap increases for top korean pros etc etc....
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On April 26 2012 05:54 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 03:53 Ballistixz wrote:
the skill ceiling between high diamond and high masters actually isnt that huge, it just depends largely on the skill of the individual player, not the league. high diamond and masters are close enough tbh. infact if im not mistaken, the main difference between diamond players and master players is the amount of game hours? like u have to play for a certain amount of time to get into masters where as diamond has no such limit. i could be wrong on that, but im pretty sure that is the case.
Yeah, it's actually huge.... There's no arbitrary cap on game time played to be put in master league, in fact you can be placed directly into master right from placement matches, the only league you cannot go RIGHT into is grandmaster. At higher levels the skill gap is exponentially increasing, like the difference between a 80 rank 100 pt masters player and a top 5 800+ point masters player is gigantic, I'd say even larger than the entire skill difference from bronze to plat maybe even diamond. And when you get up to that level, the skill difference between that top masters player and a top GM is even larger. People actually underestimate just how much better top pros are than top masters players.... Like if I played 100 games against Idra I would lose literally 100% of them unless I got lucky in a coinflip or something to win 1 game out of 100. And the skill gap increases for top korean pros etc etc....
The highest you can be placed into is platinum (I've tested it on 3 different accounts). And as a diamond who plays with both my bronze league brother, and mid-masters friend, I'd say that saying diamond is closer to bronze than to masters is a -little- bit of a stretch. But yeah, the difference between low masters and high masters is huge, and I honestly think they should make it 2 different leagues.
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I don't know if playing against better players necessarily translates into improving your skill. Yes, it does to extent, but I think it depends more on your actualy analysis of your lost games and adjustments.
With the old system you'd eventually move up anyway if you were doing well and get to those better players eventually, but in a more organized and stable fashion.
With this new system, it's kinda more chaotic and it's harder to see if you're improving or not when you beat a favoured player one time but lose to an even player another time.
Just my thoughts.
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OK, thats it.... I'm officially fucking fed up with their nonsense
Some Im playing some more today despite how much I hate this change and what do I get? A masters.... Im borderline gold/ plat. Currently gold this season and plat last 3 seasons.
My opponent hadnt played last season so he was automatically dropped one whole league because of Blizz stupid system and now that things are more loose, I get to play him as a gold!!!! Fuck that and FUCK THIS CHANGE
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On April 26 2012 06:00 Michal wrote:
I don't know if playing against better players necessarily translates into improving your skill. Yes, it does to extent, but I think it depends more on your actualy analysis of your lost games and adjustments.
With the old system you'd eventually move up anyway if you were doing well and get to those better players eventually, but in a more organized and stable fashion.
With this new system, it's kinda more chaotic and it's harder to see if you're improving or not when you beat a favoured player one time but lose to an even player another time.
Just my thoughts.
I think that being able to play significantly better players -once in a while- is a better learning experience than playing even players every game. Sometimes, I'd rather get my ass handed to me so I can look at all the things he did better than me, than to play a grueling 30 minute game which is even the entire time, and end up losing because I misplaced an overlord and didn't see a doom drop coming until he had 24 marines killing all my tech.
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Unfortunately, until the they come to their senses I'll strictly be sticking to the diamond+ practice channel and playhem for my games. At least here I'll be able to get more balanced and equally skilled matches than I can gather from the ladder.
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On April 25 2012 21:57 [RS]Fuchs wrote:
Well, i played 10-15 games today and i have to say this not a very good thing (at least for me). I'm a mid-high ranked (ladderwise) silver player trying to random into gold. So i face the usual mid high gold and silver players which gives me a +/- 60%-70% winrate. Today i faced like 5+ Plat players which of course kicked my ass. The last one was a top 8 ranked plat player. I mean wtf am i supposed to do? I can beat high gold players >50% of the time and my silver leaguers as well but there is this skill gap which makes it nearly impossible for me to win these games.
After my games today i had a winrate of 40% and i'm quite unhappy with this change. I suppose it's not that big of an issue for the like plat+ players because they have a chance to win against a masters player. But i personaly think that there is no way a semi good silver player or mid-low gold player can beat a top 8 ranked plat or diamond player. If they manage to beat them (in like one of 10-20 games) the other player messed up terribly and nothing is won experiencewise for the lower players. In my opinion nobody is able to learn anyting from these games and it makes it way harder to get into a higher league.
Overall it makes the game on my lvl just quite frustrating *sigh*
Silver player here and I'm with you on it bro. Sure, it felt good beating a top gold player but I'd much prefer steady progress. I remember when just before I got out of bronze I was being matched with silver players and eventually poped into silver. It felt so much smoother.
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On April 26 2012 06:01 CaptainCrush wrote:
OK, thats it.... I'm officially fucking fed up with their nonsense
Some Im playing some more today despite how much I hate this change and what do I get? A masters.... Im borderline gold/ plat. Currently gold this season and plat last 3 seasons.
My opponent hadnt played last season so he was automatically dropped one whole league because of Blizz stupid system and now that things are more loose, I get to play him as a gold!!!! Fuck that and FUCK THIS CHANGE
but you get to learn so much and improve by playing with a much better player! =)))
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On April 26 2012 03:53 Ballistixz wrote:this system annoys me mainly because of being matched with bad players. sure its a easy win, but most of the time u are trying to figure out wtf they are doing. u see a toss player 1 base for 7+ mins and in ur head u are thinking he is going DTs or some other 1 base all in shit, but instead he does jack shit on 1 base and then he just expands at 8 mins..... so it turned out he was just terribad. honestly a huge waste of time. or u get 6 pooled/1 base SCV all inned. quite annoying to deal with easy win or not. why waste my time on people like this? its utter retardation. the points u get for the win is so insignificant anyway because he was so damn bad... and in the off chance that u lose to such stupidness then its not like u can learn anything from reviewing the replay -_- Show nested quote +On April 25 2012 21:05 sAsImre wrote:On April 25 2012 20:59 Plexa wrote:To be fair, protech is now a top8 masters player so.. which is like 10time more skilled than any high diamond... the skill ceiling between high diamond and high masters actually isnt that huge, it just depends largely on the skill of the individual player, not the league. high diamond and masters are close enough tbh. infact if im not mistaken, the main difference between diamond players and master players is the amount of game hours? like u have to play for a certain amount of time to get into masters where as diamond has no such limit. i could be wrong on that, but im pretty sure that is the case.
It always amazes me how someone who has no clue can just randomly make something up and then believe it O_O What even gave you the idea that this was the case?
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On April 26 2012 06:13 Michal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 06:01 CaptainCrush wrote:
OK, thats it.... I'm officially fucking fed up with their nonsense
Some Im playing some more today despite how much I hate this change and what do I get? A masters.... Im borderline gold/ plat. Currently gold this season and plat last 3 seasons.
My opponent hadnt played last season so he was automatically dropped one whole league because of Blizz stupid system and now that things are more loose, I get to play him as a gold!!!! Fuck that and FUCK THIS CHANGE but you get to learn so much and improve by playing with a much better player! =)))
No, you don't. I explained this earlier in the thread. You might learn a bit from somebody who is slightly better, but playing vs someone miles better doesnt teach you much at all. If youre facing against someone slightly better you might have chance to see where you went wrong, you might notice its a micro problem, macro problem, built wrong units, slow to react or whatever that lost you the match, it might have been just 1 or 2 minor thing that you could have done better and maybe won. When you face somebody who is miles better you get steamrolled and you really dont learn much. There are so many areas that they are performing a lot better than you in that you just dont learn anything from it.
And to the few people who seem to think the new matchmaking system is good, I'm sure you wouldnt mind an option so people could just choose to be mismatched, then the majority of us who prefer even games could just switch it off.
Also Blizzard did say the main aim of this change was because people would find it "fun" to be matched against better or worse players, but it seems that a lot of people are finding it far from "fun."
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This is an awesome change! Playing against better opponents is of course always better, so ultimately I would like to meet only much better players, but in ladder someone always has to be the "better" player. But I'd much rather play some better opponents once in a while for good practise at the cost of having some low quality games where you can just do whatever you want, practise perfect macro or micro and not focus too much on strategy.
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I might ladder again now due to this, before I wasn't so sure.
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On April 26 2012 06:31 Zheryn wrote:
This is an awesome change! Playing against better opponents is of course always better, so ultimately I would like to meet only much better players, but in ladder someone always has to be the "better" player. But I'd much rather play some better opponents once in a while for good practise at the cost of having some low quality games where you can just do whatever you want, practise perfect macro or micro and not focus too much on strategy.
It isn't ALWAYS better, seems plenty of people don't think it's better at all.
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On April 26 2012 06:29 scotth85 wrote:playing vs someone miles better doesnt teach you much at all. If youre facing against someone slightly better you might have chance to see where you went wrong, you might notice its a micro problem, macro problem, built wrong units, slow to react or whatever that lost you the match, it might have been just 1 or 2 minor thing that you could have done better and maybe won. When you face somebody who is miles better you get steamrolled and you really dont learn much. There are so many areas that they are performing a lot better than you in that you just dont learn anything from it.
You can always learn more from playing a very good player. In any league under Master, people can't really execute any build properly, so you can win a lot of the games due to your oppoonents mistakes. For example, I (diamond player) don't really enjoy winning against someone who does some kind of timing attack for example if I know the same attack could potentially come 1 minute earlier if executed perfectly. I might barely defend it and then I would treat that as a loss since I should have lost if my opponent didn't play bad. Or if I kill of a drop that he should have gotten away with if he was watching it, I just get ahead without actually doing something clever. It would be much more worthwhile to play vs an opponent who did save that drop, then I would get to think "is there any way I can kill of that drop?", and I might come to the conclusion that I need a spore, a burrowed infestor or something.
All people will of course make mistakes, but playing against someone who do less mistakes and who executes builds etc properly teaches you much more about how you need to play vs different stuff.
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On April 26 2012 06:29 scotth85 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 06:13 Michal wrote:On April 26 2012 06:01 CaptainCrush wrote:
OK, thats it.... I'm officially fucking fed up with their nonsense
Some Im playing some more today despite how much I hate this change and what do I get? A masters.... Im borderline gold/ plat. Currently gold this season and plat last 3 seasons.
My opponent hadnt played last season so he was automatically dropped one whole league because of Blizz stupid system and now that things are more loose, I get to play him as a gold!!!! Fuck that and FUCK THIS CHANGE but you get to learn so much and improve by playing with a much better player! =))) No, you don't. I explained this earlier in the thread. You might learn a bit from somebody who is slightly better, but playing vs someone miles better doesnt teach you much at all. If youre facing against someone slightly better you might have chance to see where you went wrong, you might notice its a micro problem, macro problem, built wrong units, slow to react or whatever that lost you the match, it might have been just 1 or 2 minor thing that you could have done better and maybe won. When you face somebody who is miles better you get steamrolled and you really dont learn much. There are so many areas that they are performing a lot better than you in that you just dont learn anything from it. And to the few people who seem to think the new matchmaking system is good, I'm sure you wouldnt mind an option so people could just choose to be mismatched, then the majority of us who prefer even games could just switch it off. Also Blizzard did say the main aim of this change was because people would find it "fun" to be matched against better or worse players, but it seems that a lot of people are finding it far from "fun."
I was being sarcastic
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Russian Federation396 Posts
i have been #1 plat for 2 days now, ive played over 20games in those two days and won 15/20 of them, ive currently beat 4 diamond players in a row... yet i am still not promoted, i thought this new change was supposed to make it easier?
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On April 26 2012 06:52 JitnikoVi wrote:
i have been #1 plat for 2 days now, ive played over 20games in those two days and won 15/20 of them, ive currently beat 4 diamond players in a row... yet i am still not promoted, i thought this new change was supposed to make it easier?
It CAN make it faster/easier if you are supposed to be. As an example using small numbers just kind of made up
Before in previous seasons you could play someone +10/-10 points away from you in skill, so in theory if you beat someone you would only be able to move up whatever amount that would correspond to towards promotion
Now though, you can in theory play someone +15/-15 points away from you.
If you are still generally playing someone 7 points better than you, you're still moving the same speed as before. you are now just given the opportunity of having the possibility to play someone even better, if you beat them you would move your mmr faster towards that promotion line.
It is not easier in the sense that the skill requirement is lower, nor that you gain more points per win, its just that your opportunity for faster movement is higher.
Again--simplified (and maybe even more confusing for you now) explanation of what they meant when they said "easier"
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Russian Federation396 Posts
On April 26 2012 07:02 neo_sporin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 06:52 JitnikoVi wrote:
i have been #1 plat for 2 days now, ive played over 20games in those two days and won 15/20 of them, ive currently beat 4 diamond players in a row... yet i am still not promoted, i thought this new change was supposed to make it easier? It CAN make it faster/easier if you are supposed to be. As an example using small numbers just kind of made up Before in previous seasons you could play someone +10/-10 points away from you in skill, so in theory if you beat someone you would only be able to move up whatever amount that would correspond to towards promotion Now though, you can in theory play someone +15/-15 points away from you. If you are still generally playing someone 7 points better than you, you're still moving the same speed as before. you are now just given the opportunity of having the possibility to play someone even better, if you beat them you would move your mmr faster towards that promotion line. It is not easier in the sense that the skill requirement is lower, nor that you gain more points per win, its just that your opportunity for faster movement is higher. Again--simplified (and maybe even more confusing for you now) explanation of what they meant when they said "easier"
sorry my english not so good i need a more simplified version from you, for the record though 3 of the games ive lost ive lost only 3 points, adn several games i win +12 points, im already about 100points above anybody else in my plat division and 2 days ago i was last in plat(just did my placement matches)
EDIT: how to rank up? is it count by points? or consecutive wins?
i thought it was always the latter but your explanation (maybe i am confuse) makes me think it is by points?
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On April 26 2012 06:47 Zheryn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 06:29 scotth85 wrote:playing vs someone miles better doesnt teach you much at all. If youre facing against someone slightly better you might have chance to see where you went wrong, you might notice its a micro problem, macro problem, built wrong units, slow to react or whatever that lost you the match, it might have been just 1 or 2 minor thing that you could have done better and maybe won. When you face somebody who is miles better you get steamrolled and you really dont learn much. There are so many areas that they are performing a lot better than you in that you just dont learn anything from it.
You can always learn more from playing a very good player. In any league under Master, people can't really execute any build properly, so you can win a lot of the games due to your oppoonents mistakes. For example, I (diamond player) don't really enjoy winning against someone who does some kind of timing attack for example if I know the same attack could potentially come 1 minute earlier if executed perfectly. I might barely defend it and then I would treat that as a loss since I should have lost if my opponent didn't play bad. Or if I kill of a drop that he should have gotten away with if he was watching it, I just get ahead without actually doing something clever. It would be much more worthwhile to play vs an opponent who did save that drop, then I would get to think "is there any way I can kill of that drop?", and I might come to the conclusion that I need a spore, a burrowed infestor or something. All people will of course make mistakes, but playing against someone who do less mistakes and who executes builds etc properly teaches you much more about how you need to play vs different stuff.
The point I'm trying to get across is that say a gold terran will perform an all in a lot worse than say a high platinum terran trying to do the same thing, and I could still lose to the gold anyway. It's just with the gold player he is performing worse so I can see where to improve. When I get stomped by the high platinum terran it isnt that he is executing it perfectly, but he is doing it a lot better than the gold player, there is a very noticeable difference to how fast I lose to someone over a league higher than the other and I really don't pick as much up at all. I dont know if my build order was wrong, I should have expanded, I microed wrong or whatever because it's most likely a whole range of things that I did wrong.
The difference is vs the gold I am a lot more likely to be able to pick out 1 major mistake, improve on it, win next time.
And besides, I don't understand why you would stick up for the new system, I mean under the old system if youre learning and improving from your games, you should be winning more which means that you'll face better opponents like you want anyway, so surely the old system is more suitable all round for everyone, whether you enjoy facing a lot of higher skilled opponents or not. Bear in mind that Blizzards main aim is for this change to be fun for people (edit: and judging by the posts here not so many people find it fun) because they get some variety in their games - not necessarily to help people learn from pros (which I dont think you learn so well from getting destroy easily).
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On April 26 2012 06:00 ipwntbarney wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 26 2012 05:54 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 03:53 Ballistixz wrote:
the skill ceiling between high diamond and high masters actually isnt that huge, it just depends largely on the skill of the individual player, not the league. high diamond and masters are close enough tbh. infact if im not mistaken, the main difference between diamond players and master players is the amount of game hours? like u have to play for a certain amount of time to get into masters where as diamond has no such limit. i could be wrong on that, but im pretty sure that is the case.
Yeah, it's actually huge.... There's no arbitrary cap on game time played to be put in master league, in fact you can be placed directly into master right from placement matches, the only league you cannot go RIGHT into is grandmaster. At higher levels the skill gap is exponentially increasing, like the difference between a 80 rank 100 pt masters player and a top 5 800+ point masters player is gigantic, I'd say even larger than the entire skill difference from bronze to plat maybe even diamond. And when you get up to that level, the skill difference between that top masters player and a top GM is even larger. People actually underestimate just how much better top pros are than top masters players.... Like if I played 100 games against Idra I would lose literally 100% of them unless I got lucky in a coinflip or something to win 1 game out of 100. And the skill gap increases for top korean pros etc etc.... The highest you can be placed into is platinum (I've tested it on 3 different accounts). And as a diamond who plays with both my bronze league brother, and mid-masters friend, I'd say that saying diamond is closer to bronze than to masters is a -little- bit of a stretch. But yeah, the difference between low masters and high masters is huge, and I honestly think they should make it 2 different leagues.
The thing is that you're actually wrong. It doesn't matter how many accounts you've "tested" it on, you can be placed into any league except grandmaster. Check out Excalibur's league/ladder thread, he states it in there. Plus, I know from personal experience.
Up to mid masters, people don't actually execute any builds properly, nor do they really make that many intelligent decisions during the game, this is why I say that diamond is closer to bronze than masters in terms of skill and game understanding. When you're playing against another top masters player, and you go over the replays, you'll see the other person making decisions, adjusting things, playing mechanically well.... Most diamond players will not do any of those things at a top level.
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On April 26 2012 07:40 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 06:00 ipwntbarney wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 26 2012 05:54 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 03:53 Ballistixz wrote:
the skill ceiling between high diamond and high masters actually isnt that huge, it just depends largely on the skill of the individual player, not the league. high diamond and masters are close enough tbh. infact if im not mistaken, the main difference between diamond players and master players is the amount of game hours? like u have to play for a certain amount of time to get into masters where as diamond has no such limit. i could be wrong on that, but im pretty sure that is the case.
Yeah, it's actually huge.... There's no arbitrary cap on game time played to be put in master league, in fact you can be placed directly into master right from placement matches, the only league you cannot go RIGHT into is grandmaster. At higher levels the skill gap is exponentially increasing, like the difference between a 80 rank 100 pt masters player and a top 5 800+ point masters player is gigantic, I'd say even larger than the entire skill difference from bronze to plat maybe even diamond. And when you get up to that level, the skill difference between that top masters player and a top GM is even larger. People actually underestimate just how much better top pros are than top masters players.... Like if I played 100 games against Idra I would lose literally 100% of them unless I got lucky in a coinflip or something to win 1 game out of 100. And the skill gap increases for top korean pros etc etc.... The highest you can be placed into is platinum (I've tested it on 3 different accounts). And as a diamond who plays with both my bronze league brother, and mid-masters friend, I'd say that saying diamond is closer to bronze than to masters is a -little- bit of a stretch. But yeah, the difference between low masters and high masters is huge, and I honestly think they should make it 2 different leagues. The thing is that you're actually wrong. It doesn't matter how many accounts you've "tested" it on, you can be placed into any league except grandmaster. Check out Excalibur's league/ladder thread, he states it in there. Plus, I know from personal experience. Up to mid masters, people don't actually execute any builds properly, nor do they really make that many intelligent decisions during the game, this is why I say that diamond is closer to bronze than masters in terms of skill and game understanding. When you're playing against another top masters player, and you go over the replays, you'll see the other person making decisions, adjusting things, playing mechanically well.... Most diamond players will not do any of those things at a top level.
I went undefeated on placement matches on a brand new account and on a gold account that had taken a couple seasons off, and both placed into Platinum. And my Platinum friend won all 5 of his after taking 3 seasons off, and he got placed back into Platinum. So the only way to be placed into Masters seems to be if you were already in Masters, which isn't -really- placing into Masters, at least not in the same sense as placing into other leagues.
And my point was that Diamond players aren't -literally- closer to Bronze than to Masters in terms of skill. I'm fully aware that I'm nowhere NEAR low-masters, let alone high Master/GM. But there's a much larger skill gap between Diamond and Bronze than Masters to Diamond.
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Anyone know if the matchmaking system favors you to play only a certain race? In the last 30 games i played 24 ZvZ.
Playing harder opponents are kind of fun though nice on that part
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On April 26 2012 08:00 ipwntbarney wrote:
I went undefeated on placement matches on a brand new account and on a gold account that had taken a couple seasons off, and both placed into Platinum. And my Platinum friend won all 5 of his after taking 3 seasons off, and he got placed back into Platinum. So the only way to be placed into Masters seems to be if you were already in Masters, which isn't -really- placing into Masters, at least not in the same sense as placing into other leagues.
And my point was that Diamond players aren't -literally- closer to Bronze than to Masters in terms of skill. I'm fully aware that I'm nowhere NEAR low-masters, let alone high Master/GM. But there's a much larger skill gap between Diamond and Bronze than Masters to Diamond.
It doesn't only depend on how you did in your placements, it also depends on the MMR of the opponents you beat. If you come back on an account that was previously in Platinum, the system has already some idea about where to place you.
You didn't read Excalibur's thread, did you? Let me link you. The part about placement is about 1/3 of the way in, it comes right up if you Control-f the word "placement".
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195273
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I was excited for these changes initially, but have been much less so after a game against a mid-plat terran, whom I beat even after several big mistakes on my part, probably due to mental fatigue. Late third, bad engagement, bad engagement, in that order, and I still was comfortably ahead the whole game.
I'm a low masters zerg.
Still, I do feel like the chance for a serious trial-by-fire makes these changes more beneficial than not. Hopefully that terran has the same mindset.
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On April 26 2012 08:24 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 08:00 ipwntbarney wrote:
I went undefeated on placement matches on a brand new account and on a gold account that had taken a couple seasons off, and both placed into Platinum. And my Platinum friend won all 5 of his after taking 3 seasons off, and he got placed back into Platinum. So the only way to be placed into Masters seems to be if you were already in Masters, which isn't -really- placing into Masters, at least not in the same sense as placing into other leagues.
And my point was that Diamond players aren't -literally- closer to Bronze than to Masters in terms of skill. I'm fully aware that I'm nowhere NEAR low-masters, let alone high Master/GM. But there's a much larger skill gap between Diamond and Bronze than Masters to Diamond. It doesn't only depend on how you did in your placements, it also depends on the MMR of the opponents you beat. If you come back on an account that was previously in Platinum, the system has already some idea about where to place you. You didn't read Excalibur's thread, did you? Let me link you. The part about placement is about 1/3 of the way in, it comes right up if you Control-f the word "placement". http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195273
Yeah, I've read his thread. What I was saying is that, realistically, the only people who are going to place into Masters are people who were already in Masters. Which is completely different from someone placing into Masters on a brand new account.
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On April 26 2012 09:03 ipwntbarney wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 08:24 HyperionDreamer wrote:On April 26 2012 08:00 ipwntbarney wrote:
I went undefeated on placement matches on a brand new account and on a gold account that had taken a couple seasons off, and both placed into Platinum. And my Platinum friend won all 5 of his after taking 3 seasons off, and he got placed back into Platinum. So the only way to be placed into Masters seems to be if you were already in Masters, which isn't -really- placing into Masters, at least not in the same sense as placing into other leagues.
And my point was that Diamond players aren't -literally- closer to Bronze than to Masters in terms of skill. I'm fully aware that I'm nowhere NEAR low-masters, let alone high Master/GM. But there's a much larger skill gap between Diamond and Bronze than Masters to Diamond. It doesn't only depend on how you did in your placements, it also depends on the MMR of the opponents you beat. If you come back on an account that was previously in Platinum, the system has already some idea about where to place you. You didn't read Excalibur's thread, did you? Let me link you. The part about placement is about 1/3 of the way in, it comes right up if you Control-f the word "placement". http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195273 Yeah, I've read his thread. What I was saying is that, realistically, the only people who are going to place into Masters are people who were already in Masters. Which is completely different from someone placing into Masters on a brand new account.
It's possible to place in Master on a brand new account as well. You would have to be very good (ie. actually that league caliber) and get very lucky with who it matches you up against, but it's possible if you 5-0 it against good people.
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On April 26 2012 09:58 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 09:03 ipwntbarney wrote:On April 26 2012 08:24 HyperionDreamer wrote:On April 26 2012 08:00 ipwntbarney wrote:
I went undefeated on placement matches on a brand new account and on a gold account that had taken a couple seasons off, and both placed into Platinum. And my Platinum friend won all 5 of his after taking 3 seasons off, and he got placed back into Platinum. So the only way to be placed into Masters seems to be if you were already in Masters, which isn't -really- placing into Masters, at least not in the same sense as placing into other leagues.
And my point was that Diamond players aren't -literally- closer to Bronze than to Masters in terms of skill. I'm fully aware that I'm nowhere NEAR low-masters, let alone high Master/GM. But there's a much larger skill gap between Diamond and Bronze than Masters to Diamond. It doesn't only depend on how you did in your placements, it also depends on the MMR of the opponents you beat. If you come back on an account that was previously in Platinum, the system has already some idea about where to place you. You didn't read Excalibur's thread, did you? Let me link you. The part about placement is about 1/3 of the way in, it comes right up if you Control-f the word "placement". http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195273 Yeah, I've read his thread. What I was saying is that, realistically, the only people who are going to place into Masters are people who were already in Masters. Which is completely different from someone placing into Masters on a brand new account. It's possible to place in Master on a brand new account as well. You would have to be very good (ie. actually that league caliber) and get very lucky with who it matches you up against, but it's possible if you 5-0 it against good people.
Probability to face high enough players (MMR wise) with totally new account in placements to be placed in master league is low, but possible. Most likely scenario to get such opponents in placements is to get boost from team game MMR as MMR from other game types is used as starting point for the first placement match.
Nowadays it seems typical to be placed either in platinum or diamond by winning all 5 placement matches. E.g. when i bought my US account last fall I got placed in diamond.
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On April 26 2012 07:07 scotth85 wrote:
The point I'm trying to get across is that say a gold terran will perform an all in a lot worse than say a high platinum terran trying to do the same thing, and I could still lose to the gold anyway. It's just with the gold player he is performing worse so I can see where to improve. When I get stomped by the high platinum terran it isnt that he is executing it perfectly, but he is doing it a lot better than the gold player, there is a very noticeable difference to how fast I lose to someone over a league higher than the other and I really don't pick as much up at all. I dont know if my build order was wrong, I should have expanded, I microed wrong or whatever because it's most likely a whole range of things that I did wrong.
The difference is vs the gold I am a lot more likely to be able to pick out 1 major mistake, improve on it, win next time.
I don't understand your logic. If you lose to the platinum players all in, then that's great, now you can check the replay, see what you needed to have to stop it and improve on that. If the gold player doesn't execute it good and you win just because his push was way too late/too few units, and then you counter-attack for the win, what do you learn? "Yeah my build is perfect against gold all ins, no need to change anything"?
A better player will exploit your weaknesses better, making you see them easier. For example, today I got matched against a high master player who abused my late ling speed, making me realise I need to get it a bit earlier, compared to if I had only met diamonds who didn't abuse it.
Anyone who aims to become better should always want to play against high masters players if that was possible. Of course if someone's happy with being in gold, and don't wish to climb the ladder, there's no real reason to learn to defend against the masters all in.
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On April 26 2012 09:58 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 09:03 ipwntbarney wrote:On April 26 2012 08:24 HyperionDreamer wrote:On April 26 2012 08:00 ipwntbarney wrote:
I went undefeated on placement matches on a brand new account and on a gold account that had taken a couple seasons off, and both placed into Platinum. And my Platinum friend won all 5 of his after taking 3 seasons off, and he got placed back into Platinum. So the only way to be placed into Masters seems to be if you were already in Masters, which isn't -really- placing into Masters, at least not in the same sense as placing into other leagues.
And my point was that Diamond players aren't -literally- closer to Bronze than to Masters in terms of skill. I'm fully aware that I'm nowhere NEAR low-masters, let alone high Master/GM. But there's a much larger skill gap between Diamond and Bronze than Masters to Diamond. It doesn't only depend on how you did in your placements, it also depends on the MMR of the opponents you beat. If you come back on an account that was previously in Platinum, the system has already some idea about where to place you. You didn't read Excalibur's thread, did you? Let me link you. The part about placement is about 1/3 of the way in, it comes right up if you Control-f the word "placement". http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195273 Yeah, I've read his thread. What I was saying is that, realistically, the only people who are going to place into Masters are people who were already in Masters. Which is completely different from someone placing into Masters on a brand new account. It's possible to place in Master on a brand new account as well. You would have to be very good (ie. actually that league caliber) and get very lucky with who it matches you up against, but it's possible if you 5-0 it against good people.
This is false. Back in Beta, before Masters and GM were introduced, it was possible to place directly into Diamond (I did it myself). In the interest of making the status of Diamond more impressive, Blizzard made it impossible to place higher than Platinum in 1v1. This change was never reverted. 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 ladder can place you directly into Masters, but 1v1 is limited to Platinum. Placing BACK into your league is not hit by the same restrictions.
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On April 26 2012 13:51 Zheryn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 07:07 scotth85 wrote:
The point I'm trying to get across is that say a gold terran will perform an all in a lot worse than say a high platinum terran trying to do the same thing, and I could still lose to the gold anyway. It's just with the gold player he is performing worse so I can see where to improve. When I get stomped by the high platinum terran it isnt that he is executing it perfectly, but he is doing it a lot better than the gold player, there is a very noticeable difference to how fast I lose to someone over a league higher than the other and I really don't pick as much up at all. I dont know if my build order was wrong, I should have expanded, I microed wrong or whatever because it's most likely a whole range of things that I did wrong.
The difference is vs the gold I am a lot more likely to be able to pick out 1 major mistake, improve on it, win next time. I don't understand your logic. If you lose to the platinum players all in, then that's great, now you can check the replay, see what you needed to have to stop it and improve on that. If the gold player doesn't execute it good and you win just because his push was way too late/too few units, and then you counter-attack for the win, what do you learn? "Yeah my build is perfect against gold all ins, no need to change anything"? A better player will exploit your weaknesses better, making you see them easier. For example, today I got matched against a high master player who abused my late ling speed, making me realise I need to get it a bit earlier, compared to if I had only met diamonds who didn't abuse it. Anyone who aims to become better should always want to play against high masters players if that was possible. Of course if someone's happy with being in gold, and don't wish to climb the ladder, there's no real reason to learn to defend against the masters all in.
Well, you shouldn't be playing against people who are so much better than you that you can't even see what you're doing wrong. You should be playing against people moderately better than you, which is what the current system allows. To take the argument to its absolute extreme, if you matched up a Bronze League player against a Code S player, the Code S player would stomp them so firmly doing absolutely anything that the Bronzie could never learn what they were doing wrong, except possibly that they're bad at this game. If they go up against a Silver League player, then they could see "oh, this guy had a bigger army than me because he expanded one more time", and factor that into their play.
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On April 26 2012 14:04 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 09:58 HyperionDreamer wrote:On April 26 2012 09:03 ipwntbarney wrote:On April 26 2012 08:24 HyperionDreamer wrote:On April 26 2012 08:00 ipwntbarney wrote:
I went undefeated on placement matches on a brand new account and on a gold account that had taken a couple seasons off, and both placed into Platinum. And my Platinum friend won all 5 of his after taking 3 seasons off, and he got placed back into Platinum. So the only way to be placed into Masters seems to be if you were already in Masters, which isn't -really- placing into Masters, at least not in the same sense as placing into other leagues.
And my point was that Diamond players aren't -literally- closer to Bronze than to Masters in terms of skill. I'm fully aware that I'm nowhere NEAR low-masters, let alone high Master/GM. But there's a much larger skill gap between Diamond and Bronze than Masters to Diamond. It doesn't only depend on how you did in your placements, it also depends on the MMR of the opponents you beat. If you come back on an account that was previously in Platinum, the system has already some idea about where to place you. You didn't read Excalibur's thread, did you? Let me link you. The part about placement is about 1/3 of the way in, it comes right up if you Control-f the word "placement". http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195273 Yeah, I've read his thread. What I was saying is that, realistically, the only people who are going to place into Masters are people who were already in Masters. Which is completely different from someone placing into Masters on a brand new account. It's possible to place in Master on a brand new account as well. You would have to be very good (ie. actually that league caliber) and get very lucky with who it matches you up against, but it's possible if you 5-0 it against good people. This is false. Back in Beta, before Masters and GM were introduced, it was possible to place directly into Diamond (I did it myself). In the interest of making the status of Diamond more impressive, Blizzard made it impossible to place higher than Platinum in 1v1. This change was never reverted. 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 ladder can place you directly into Masters, but 1v1 is limited to Platinum. Placing BACK into your league is not hit by the same restrictions.
In late beta Blizzard indeed did set that in 1v1 you could not be placed into the highest league. In the early retail the second highest league was platinum. This changed when master league was introduced in January 2011. After that point you could be placed into diamond. About month later GM was introduced. After that you could be placed into master league although it's very rare as most of the time you do not get MMR wise high enough opponents in placement matches.
As I said couple of posts earlier most people who win all their 5 placement matches with a brand new account are either placed into platinum or diamond depending on their luck with their placement match opponents. I myself was placed with my brand new US account directly into diamond last fall. My EU account was placed into platinum when SC2 was published, which was the highest league where you could be placed at that time (diamond required a promotion).
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On April 26 2012 14:04 Acritter wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On April 26 2012 09:58 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 09:03 ipwntbarney wrote:On April 26 2012 08:24 HyperionDreamer wrote:On April 26 2012 08:00 ipwntbarney wrote:
I went undefeated on placement matches on a brand new account and on a gold account that had taken a couple seasons off, and both placed into Platinum. And my Platinum friend won all 5 of his after taking 3 seasons off, and he got placed back into Platinum. So the only way to be placed into Masters seems to be if you were already in Masters, which isn't -really- placing into Masters, at least not in the same sense as placing into other leagues.
And my point was that Diamond players aren't -literally- closer to Bronze than to Masters in terms of skill. I'm fully aware that I'm nowhere NEAR low-masters, let alone high Master/GM. But there's a much larger skill gap between Diamond and Bronze than Masters to Diamond. It doesn't only depend on how you did in your placements, it also depends on the MMR of the opponents you beat. If you come back on an account that was previously in Platinum, the system has already some idea about where to place you. You didn't read Excalibur's thread, did you? Let me link you. The part about placement is about 1/3 of the way in, it comes right up if you Control-f the word "placement". http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=195273 Yeah, I've read his thread. What I was saying is that, realistically, the only people who are going to place into Masters are people who were already in Masters. Which is completely different from someone placing into Masters on a brand new account. It's possible to place in Master on a brand new account as well. You would have to be very good (ie. actually that league caliber) and get very lucky with who it matches you up against, but it's possible if you 5-0 it against good people. This is false. Back in Beta, before Masters and GM were introduced, it was possible to place directly into Diamond (I did it myself). In the interest of making the status of Diamond more impressive, Blizzard made it impossible to place higher than Platinum in 1v1. This change was never reverted. 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 ladder can place you directly into Masters, but 1v1 is limited to Platinum. Placing BACK into your league is not hit by the same restrictions.
I linked a previous poster to Excalibur's league and ladder thread. In there he clearly states that it is possible to place into any league except grandmaster. In addition, I have personally witnessed a brand new account being placed into Master.
Please actually read the thread before posting random stuff, I've posted the same answer multiple times.
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It looks to me like the reverted reverted changes have been reverted again, or at least toned down quite a bit, ie you are no longer matched up against opponents with wildly varying skill. Does anybody agree?
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On April 30 2012 01:53 Mendelfist wrote:
It looks to me like the reverted reverted changes have been reverted again, or at least toned down quite a bit, ie you are no longer matched up against opponents with wildly varying skill. Does anybody agree?
Seem that way for me.
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On April 30 2012 01:53 Mendelfist wrote:
It looks to me like the reverted reverted changes have been reverted again, or at least toned down quite a bit, ie you are no longer matched up against opponents with wildly varying skill. Does anybody agree?
same for me.. looks like they dont know what they want to do lol..
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yeah it's back to normal, thank God.
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On April 30 2012 02:27 Laurens wrote:
yeah it's back to normal, thank God.
dont thank him yet..
maybe they will change it back tomorrow.. :D
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so after 20 matches today i can confirm that they reverted it back to the old one again (normal not extended range) lol
lets see how long it lasts this time
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I am still getting wide swings of skill level.
This whole new system needs to go. Revert it back to how it was and lets end this experiment. I'm tired of winning 8 points vs golds, then losing a bunch to "even" diamonds. I'm plat, I want to face other plat players, and once I hit top 8 plat, throw in diamonds like you were. I'm tired of having to play vs people who think not expanding and getting 6 voids will win them the game. It's a waste of my time, and I'm not learning anything.
The matchmaking was the single best thing about bnet 2.0, stop screwing with it.
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This is just like how they keep changing the bunker.
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sounds good but honestly i still can see problems arising.
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Yea I think they reverted it back too, which is amazing!
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Well, now I don't know what to believe anymore. This is the variation in my opponents MMR this season.
They officially implemented the new relaxed matchmaking around match nr 31 (after fixing the matchmaking at the top and the bottom), and that's very visible. After that there was a quiet period, and I thought it was removed again, but today it seems to be back in full force. I don't know if they are fiddling with it, or if the "normal" period was just a coincidence. I think my sample size may be too small.
![[image loading]](http://www.lysator.liu.se/~john/mmr2.jpg)
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I would be very happy if they just kept the old matchmaking system
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EPT
